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Are you suggesting it's some sort of conspiracy?PlatoSaid said:
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.0 -
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.0 -
It's going to be the politest show ever. "After you, Jeremy". "No, I insist, after you, Michael". It'll be gripping stuff.Scott_P said:@paulwaugh: .@jeremycorbynmp and Michael Gove will be on the @MarrShow this Sunday, as planned.
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Oh! Thx.DanSmith said:
One of the country's leading pro-euro politicians was murdered a few days before the referendum. The country still voted against the Euro (by a big margin).GIN1138 said:
What happened?DanSmith said:The Swedish euro referendum in 2003 is a reference point for what happens in this sort of situation.
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If it turns out to be a deliberate falsehood, from someone not at the scene, then the originator should be subjected to the full force of the law. Hope it turns out to be a misunderstanding in the heat of the moment.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.PlatoSaid said:
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
Some shrewdies on here thought that Shooooorely UKIP would get a boost from the Paris atrocities in Oldham.AlastairMeeks said:Remain has moved out from 1.5 earlier this morning to 1.58 now.
Turned out to be complete boulderdash !0 -
The pressure will increase for them to do so from tomorrow.TudorRose said:
I wonder when the police will openly discuss their preliminary findings?PlatoSaid said:
I'm not excusing him in any way - the reported stuff is c20yrs old. No one thought he was political or threatening - just a reclusive, polite and friendly loner. He's clearly mentally ill - no one scrubs themselves with a Brillo pad for fun. I'm not convinced either way that the whole horrible thing was anything more than that.TheWhiteRabbit said:
We've got plenty of evidence now coming out about far-right links... if he didn't shout "Britain First" then that was a bloody lucky guess.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
We all remember how well those went at the GE.TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.0 -
Exactly the vast majority who cast (or have already cast a vote) do not know who the heck Britain First are, although they might guess he is more likely to be a Brexiter from that statement alone. But the number of people who will say "hmmm that man who was mentally ill and killed an MP said britain first and is probably a Leaver so I will vote Remain" are so few it will not affect the result one iota.Tony said:
Totally agree. Some of the conspiracy stuff being thrown around is ridiculous.Wanderer said:
I think that's right. The great majority of people are going to see this as solemn words from MPs after one of their number has been murdered. They won't decode it into a subliminal "vote Remain". Meanwhile Leave is ahead and the clock is running down.Sean_F said:
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.Casino_Royale said:
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?TGOHF said:
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?marke09 said:
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it'll have very little effect on the result of the referendum.
I would argue the news cycles benefit leave.
Leave was ahead , Remain needs to campaign to pull it back.
Carney/IMF warnings were all wiped out on Thursday.
They'll be nothing else in the news until Tuesday . Leaving 2 days for Remain to pull it back.
Twitter is not Britain as someone said, the liberal left are in an echo chamber , it has no resonance with the general public. They just see it as a mentally unstable nutter and a poor family without a mother.
A naked attempt to link the murder to brexit supporters by Remain campaigns will be meet with disgust.
The only way it changes imho is if we get a direct link between the killer and Brexit support in the next days. Email/previous communication with Jo Cox.
Leave are ahead. Just.0 -
Either way, it's a disaster.MarqueeMark said:
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.0 -
Do you have a link of that? First I've heard of it.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
And does the BNP have enough life in it to despise anything? I though it had been struck off as a political party by the EC?0 -
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.Casino_Royale said:
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?RodCrosby said:
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.RobD said:
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.RodCrosby said:
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...IanB2 said:
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.RobD said:
Quite rightMorris_Dancer said:Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.0 -
Weren't there two of them that said it? Would be certainly weird if they were both BNPersPlatoSaid said:
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
The only thing I know from dealings with the press is that the first version of events is invariably wrong.MP_SE said:
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.PlatoSaid said:
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
Yep, time and again it emerges that initial reports about an incident are incomplete or just plain wrong. Twitter, message boards etc, though, mean that such an obvious truth is never going to make any difference.MP_SE said:
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.PlatoSaid said:
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
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Try the following.MarqueeMark said:
Do you have a link of that? First I've heard of it.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
And does the BNP have enough life in it to despise anything? I though it had been struck off as a political party by the EC?
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/17/britain-first-eyewitness-bnp-member-list/0 -
Can't you get an emergency one even on the day?TheScreamingEagles said:
Too late for a proxy voteSunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!0 -
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
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MP_SE said:
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.PlatoSaid said:
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Orlando is a clusterfcku of weirdness.
ISIS supporting, Latino gay murdering heterosexual G4S security guard who regularly cruised Pulse and gay dating sites for sex.
That's one seriously conflicted dead arsehole.0 -
was one of them called Carlotta ? :-)MarqueeMark said:
Do you have a link of that? First I've heard of it.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
And does the BNP have enough life in it to despise anything? I though it had been struck off as a political party by the EC?0 -
I wouldn't disagree with either of those. It was tragic event and has far reaching repercussions.Casino_Royale said:
Either way, it's a disaster.MarqueeMark said:
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.0 -
what he means is who will win, Lol. will swingback win it for Remain on the day.RodCrosby said:
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.Casino_Royale said:
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?RodCrosby said:
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.RobD said:
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.RodCrosby said:
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...IanB2 said:
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.RobD said:
Quite rightMorris_Dancer said:Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.
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anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?0 -
From personal experience - all sorts of rubbish is printed based on nothing more than a desire to file a few hundred words. It's terribly easy to follow what looks juicy - and then get burned by it - but hopefully your own eff-up won't be remembered.MarqueeMark said:
The only thing I know from dealings with the press is that the first version of events is invariably wrong.MP_SE said:
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.PlatoSaid said:
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
Thanks.RodCrosby said:
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.Casino_Royale said:
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?RodCrosby said:
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.RobD said:
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.RodCrosby said:
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...IanB2 said:
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.RobD said:
Quite rightMorris_Dancer said:Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.0 -
How come TSE has banned so many LEAVERs in the last year?Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
Can I have some more tinfoil, please?0 -
Thanks.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly a YouGov. We might get one in tomorrow's Sunday Times.Casino_Royale said:
So equally meaningless then. When would the next poll be with the majority of the fieldwork done after the event?TheScreamingEagles said:
Tomorrow's Opinium, about 95% of the fieldwork was completed before 1pm yesterday.Casino_Royale said:
Pretty meaningless now though?TheScreamingEagles said:Am unsure if I'm getting an embargoed copy of the BMG polls.
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
Everything has changed.
I've asked Tim Shipman, no response yet. Last week he told me straight away.
Just cause I can, tomorrow ain't Sunday.0 -
Whats your current prediction Rod ?RodCrosby said:
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.Casino_Royale said:
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?RodCrosby said:
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.RobD said:
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.RodCrosby said:
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...IanB2 said:
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.RobD said:
Quite rightMorris_Dancer said:Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.0 -
They've not been banned. Their posts are merely being routed through PBs premier server. Unfortunately it is located on Southern Thule....Sunil_Prasannan said:
How come TSE has banned so many LEAVERs in the last year?Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
Can I have some more tinfoil, please?0 -
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.0 -
FWIW after shortening to 2.5 on Betfair after the mid-week polls, LEAVE's price lengthened considerably to 2.9 this morning, before coming back in to its current level of 2.7.0
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Just completed an Opinium EURef poll0
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Well the Sunday Times poll comes out Saturday night.Casino_Royale said:
Thanks.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly a YouGov. We might get one in tomorrow's Sunday Times.Casino_Royale said:
So equally meaningless then. When would the next poll be with the majority of the fieldwork done after the event?TheScreamingEagles said:
Tomorrow's Opinium, about 95% of the fieldwork was completed before 1pm yesterday.Casino_Royale said:
Pretty meaningless now though?TheScreamingEagles said:Am unsure if I'm getting an embargoed copy of the BMG polls.
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
Everything has changed.
I've asked Tim Shipman, no response yet. Last week he told me straight away.
Just cause I can, tomorrow ain't Sunday.0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
Well the Sunday Times poll comes out Saturday night.Casino_Royale said:
Thanks.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly a YouGov. We might get one in tomorrow's Sunday Times.Casino_Royale said:
So equally meaningless then. When would the next poll be with the majority of the fieldwork done after the event?TheScreamingEagles said:
Tomorrow's Opinium, about 95% of the fieldwork was completed before 1pm yesterday.Casino_Royale said:
Pretty meaningless now though?TheScreamingEagles said:Am unsure if I'm getting an embargoed copy of the BMG polls.
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
Everything has changed.
I've asked Tim Shipman, no response yet. Last week he told me straight away.
Just cause I can, tomorrow ain't Sunday.0 -
After this horrible and needless death, I think we all need to reflect on our actions and words in politics on all sides. I include myself in this as a rather tribal Remain voter. At times, I have been disdainful and insulting to the Brexiteers and I apologise to all of them. At the same time, there should be a lot of guilt to go round. Everyone from David Cameron to Boris Johnson to Nigel Farage to George Osborne has made a deliberate tactic to use fear over hope in this campaign, and it's created a toxic, divisive atmosphere.0
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Single-handedly? ImpressiveTheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
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did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
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Completely agree, though I doubt we will see any unrest if Remain wins. If Leave wins, I'd expect the Trots and the SWP to be out and about looking for trouble.Casino_Royale said:
Either way, it's a disaster.MarqueeMark said:
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
0 -
I disagree with most of this analysis. Firstly, Remain led for months/years, and it is really only in the last few days that there have been serious suggestions of the vote being close or a Leave win. People who indulge in conspiracy theories should be ignored (unless they have guns). Secondly, a Leave win would already have been destined to have created an atmosphere of Intolerant Britain, with plenty of revulsion at the thought that the likes of Farage and Gove had hijacked the country. I can imagine quite ugly scenes and events, mainly from racists who might think their victory gave them the right to take things into their own hands. But things would settle down quickly as people began to recognise that Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc. were still the biggest cheeses and not as much had changed as people had been led to believe. (Though there might be quite a bit of voters' regret if the economic situation worsens.)Casino_Royale said:
Either way, it's a disaster.MarqueeMark said:
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.0 -
I think we will see unrest if Remain win.SouthamObserver said:
Completely agree, though I doubt we will see any unrest if Remain wins. If Leave wins, I'd expect the Trots and the SWP to be out and about looking for trouble.Casino_Royale said:
Either way, it's a disaster.MarqueeMark said:
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
Trots and SWP always up for trouble either way.0 -
Nice get out!TheScreamingEagles said:
Well the Sunday Times poll comes out Saturday night.Casino_Royale said:
Thanks.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly a YouGov. We might get one in tomorrow's Sunday Times.Casino_Royale said:
So equally meaningless then. When would the next poll be with the majority of the fieldwork done after the event?TheScreamingEagles said:
Tomorrow's Opinium, about 95% of the fieldwork was completed before 1pm yesterday.Casino_Royale said:
Pretty meaningless now though?TheScreamingEagles said:Am unsure if I'm getting an embargoed copy of the BMG polls.
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
Everything has changed.
I've asked Tim Shipman, no response yet. Last week he told me straight away.
Just cause I can, tomorrow ain't Sunday.0 -
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?0 -
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.0
-
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.0 -
The establishment rarely lose from elections as they're contested between different branches.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
This referendum has though threatened the establishment and they are shocked, frightened and angry - witness Osborne's willingness to trash the economy (and make liars out of all Conservative campaigners) out of spite.
A Remain win will see some real hate inflicted on the working class and rural areas.
0 -
After the Indyref, when some people got into a tizzy over what was meant by a poll coming out on in Wednesday's telegraph meant, I always use the day the poll is released.Casino_Royale said:
Nice get out!TheScreamingEagles said:
Well the Sunday Times poll comes out Saturday night.Casino_Royale said:
Thanks.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly a YouGov. We might get one in tomorrow's Sunday Times.Casino_Royale said:
So equally meaningless then. When would the next poll be with the majority of the fieldwork done after the event?TheScreamingEagles said:
Tomorrow's Opinium, about 95% of the fieldwork was completed before 1pm yesterday.Casino_Royale said:
Pretty meaningless now though?TheScreamingEagles said:Am unsure if I'm getting an embargoed copy of the BMG polls.
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
Everything has changed.
I've asked Tim Shipman, no response yet. Last week he told me straight away.
Just cause I can, tomorrow ain't Sunday.0 -
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
0 -
As I understand the far-left have not been supporting Remain. I don't expect unrest if either side win, but I do expect a diseased and difficult political climate that won't be too easy to clear.SouthamObserver said:
Completely agree, though I doubt we will see any unrest if Remain wins. If Leave wins, I'd expect the Trots and the SWP to be out and about looking for trouble.Casino_Royale said:
Either way, it's a disaster.MarqueeMark said:
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.0 -
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
We all know which thread PB needs....Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?0 -
And 40 years of grumbling until we get another go....another_richard said:
The establishment rarely lose from elections as they're contested between different branches.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
This referendum has though threatened the establishment and they are shocked, frightened and angry - witness Osborne's willingness to trash the economy (and make liars out of all Conservative campaigners) out of spite.
A Remain win will see some real hate inflicted on the working class and rural areas.0 -
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?0 -
Lol! What a lot of confirmation bias and nonsense.Dadge said:
I disagree with most of this analysis. Firstly, Remain led for months/years, and it is really only in the last few days that there have been serious suggestions of the vote being close or a Leave win. People who indulge in conspiracy theories should be ignored (unless they have guns). Secondly, a Leave win would already have been destined to have created an atmosphere of Intolerant Britain, with plenty of revulsion at the thought that the likes of Farage and Gove had hijacked the country. I can imagine quite ugly scenes and events, mainly from racists who might think their victory gave them the right to take things into their own hands. But things would settle down quickly as people began to recognise that Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc. were still the biggest cheeses and not as much had changed as people had been led to believe. (Though there might be quite a bit of voters' regret if the economic situation worsens.)Casino_Royale said:
Either way, it's a disaster.MarqueeMark said:
All too murky...MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.0 -
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
I've just noticed my fridge door has been open for a day and everything in it has either started to evolve or gone a strange colour. I've shut the door. I can't face it.Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
It was clearly protesting over Brexit.0 -
Actually feck it. The AV related thread is going up at 7.300
-
TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
There has never been a better time to dicuss the merits of AV.RobD said:
We all know which thread PB needs....Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
0 -
typical, I leave you the Tories for a couple of years and you hand it back in two pieces :-)TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
One hopes it is a fair threadfoxinsoxuk said:
There has never been a better time to dicuss the merits of AV.RobD said:
We all know which thread PB needs....Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
0 -
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.PlatoSaid said:
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
Actually feck it. The AV related thread is going up at 7.30
0 -
What we need is an Indyerf2 thread.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?0 -
You've had it explained to you twice already today. Korsakoffs?Jobabob said:
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.PlatoSaid said:
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.0 -
It is mocking SJW types who throw racist around every time they are losing an argument to try and shut the debate down.Jobabob said:
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.PlatoSaid said:
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.0 -
I've been a member of the Tory since May 6th 1997.Alanbrooke said:
typical, I leave you the Tories for a couple of years and you hand it back in two pieces :-)TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
A Labour friend said a few months later that was like signing up for the Texas Army after The Alamo.
I always thought it was more noble to be a Travis than a Santa Anna0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
Actually feck it. The AV related thread is going up at 7.30
If we all promise to be polite will you withdraw this threat please?0 -
Interesting that campaigning has ceased everywhere except pb.com.0
-
Jobabob said:
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.PlatoSaid said:
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
"waycist" - how a child might say racist. Because stupid name-calling when someone has lost the argument is childish. I think.
0 -
People in favour of change like referendums as the means by which they achieve it. Those favouring the status quo dislike them because they don't see a need for them. But referendums like the Brexit one are not objective arbiters. They are used as political tools. David Cameron called this referendum either because he wasn't able to face down the faction in his party that wanted to force through change, or because he thought a referendum would endorse his political position. In both cases the fact there was a referendum indicates his weak political positionPlatoSaid said:
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
That however is a different point from the mechanics of the referendum vote, which is absolutely zero sum.0 -
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
And too many Leavers on here seem to either to forget to organise their vote, or bottle it!blackburn63 said:Interesting that campaigning has ceased everywhere except pb.com.
That's why I have so little confidence in the result.0 -
Probably local stuff is going on at a more subdued level?blackburn63 said:Interesting that campaigning has ceased everywhere except pb.com.
0 -
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:PlatoSaid said:
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3609357/Operation-Black-Vote-unveils-controversial-referendum-poster-comparing-Asian-woman-angry-white-thug-Nigel-Farage-claims-goes-far.html
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
0 -
What goes on here can hardly be called campaigning. If any of the regulars claimed to be undecided I would be the first to point and laugh. I'm just hanging out here to see how long it takes Sean to decide to vote Remain rather than be exiled from the media dinner party circuit for all eternityblackburn63 said:Interesting that campaigning has ceased everywhere except pb.com.
. Oh, and the AV thread of course. 0 -
What if you are simultaneously ennobled?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
Where to? Libertarian?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
I did a few days ago. Brexit leads to Indyref2 threadAlanbrooke said:
What we need is an Indyerf2 thread.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?0 -
Do you think I'm going to let that happen, or any of us sane Leavers?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
Farage has caused nothing but trouble for us and contaminated our campaign.
I detest him.0 -
Outta where?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
One of them is in favour of staying in the Union so it should be called the Conservative and Unionist PartyAlanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
The other could be termed a "UK Independence Party" !0 -
I'll be a bastard, outside the tent, pissing in.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Where to? Libertarian?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
0 -
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.Wanderer said:I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
0 -
Maybe - Leave is tightening again I notice on Betfair - was out to 3 now in to 2.68.Wanderer said:I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
0 -
Deep irony. It's childish in and of itself. Can we put it on the verboten list?MarkHopkins said:Jobabob said:
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.PlatoSaid said:
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.FF43 said:
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."another_richard said:
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.RealBritain said:
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
"waycist" - how a child might say racist. Because stupid name-calling when someone has lost the argument is childish. I think.0 -
Boris will do anything to be PM, including all of the above involving FarageCasino_Royale said:
Do you think I'm going to let that happen, or any of us sane Leavers?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
Farage has caused nothing but trouble for us and contaminated our campaign.
I detest him.0 -
no a proper one with James Kelly and Mick Pork and the cast of wings over somersetTheScreamingEagles said:
I did a few days ago. Brexit leads to Indyref2 threadAlanbrooke said:
What we need is an Indyerf2 thread.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
ah fun days0 -
The combo of him and Trump next week is pretty stomach turningCasino_Royale said:
Do you think I'm going to let that happen, or any of us sane Leavers?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
Farage has caused nothing but trouble for us and contaminated our campaign.
I detest him.0 -
And with Corbynblackburn63 said:Interesting that campaigning has ceased everywhere except pb.com.
"It’s an attack on democracy, what happened yesterday; it’s the well of hatred that killed her."
Says the friend of the IRA..
0 -
An underlying reason why Britain is becoming a more divided place is the obsession about money and living standards.
If success is measured in money then people need to be constantly having more of it and also more than others have.
And when you have economic stagnation the easiest way to achieve that is to have it taken from someone else.
Britain needs to concentrate of quality of life issues instead of living standards.
0 -
After Thursday, no Conservative has any need to indulge Farage.TheScreamingEagles said:
Boris will do anything to be PM, including all of the above involving FarageCasino_Royale said:
Do you think I'm going to let that happen, or any of us sane Leavers?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
Farage has caused nothing but trouble for us and contaminated our campaign.
I detest him.
0 -
Good man!TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll be a bastard, outside pissing in.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Where to? Libertarian?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
That's my kind of style.0 -
Is it just turning out now that everyone is secretly a member of some far-right hate group?MP_SE said:
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.MarqueeMark said:
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.shiney2 said:0 -
It's the Tories or nowhere for me.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Where to? Libertarian?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
I can't see me doing a Winston McKenzie0 -
I for one do not miss *tears of laughter* and *titter* and *chortle*. I do however, miss Martin Day. If only he could have metaphorically lived to see this day.Alanbrooke said:
no a proper one with James Kelly and Mick Pork and the cast of wings over somersetTheScreamingEagles said:
I did a few days ago. Brexit leads to Indyref2 threadAlanbrooke said:
What we need is an Indyerf2 thread.TheScreamingEagles said:
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.Alanbrooke said:
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.TheScreamingEagles said:
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.Alanbrooke said:
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?TheScreamingEagles said:
There is no exit poll.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:Pulpstar said:
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !Sunil_Prasannan said:Oh shit!
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
naughty step or Siberia ?
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
ah fun days0 -
@another_richard I'll own up to "carrot crunchers". Obviously the irony of a Norfolk boy using it passed you (though not, I think, @Alanbrooke ) by.0
-
You remainers have a bizarre fascination with Boris and IDS, Makes mine with Osborne look mild. This is a win win no PM Boris no PM George. IDS is history.TheScreamingEagles said:
Boris will do anything to be PM, including all of the above involving FarageCasino_Royale said:
Do you think I'm going to let that happen, or any of us sane Leavers?TheScreamingEagles said:
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta hereCasino_Royale said:
Don't go.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.Alanbrooke said:
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?TheScreamingEagles said:Just completed an Opinium EURef poll
Farage has caused nothing but trouble for us and contaminated our campaign.
I detest him.
You have a chance to pick a normal person.0
This discussion has been closed.