There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
The Swedish euro referendum in 2003 is a reference point for what happens in this sort of situation.
What happened?
One of the country's leading pro-euro politicians was murdered a few days before the referendum. The country still voted against the Euro (by a big margin).
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
If it turns out to be a deliberate falsehood, from someone not at the scene, then the originator should be subjected to the full force of the law. Hope it turns out to be a misunderstanding in the heat of the moment.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
We've got plenty of evidence now coming out about far-right links... if he didn't shout "Britain First" then that was a bloody lucky guess.
I'm not excusing him in any way - the reported stuff is c20yrs old. No one thought he was political or threatening - just a reclusive, polite and friendly loner. He's clearly mentally ill - no one scrubs themselves with a Brillo pad for fun. I'm not convinced either way that the whole horrible thing was anything more than that.
I wonder when the police will openly discuss their preliminary findings?
The pressure will increase for them to do so from tomorrow.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I think that's right. The great majority of people are going to see this as solemn words from MPs after one of their number has been murdered. They won't decode it into a subliminal "vote Remain". Meanwhile Leave is ahead and the clock is running down.
Totally agree. Some of the conspiracy stuff being thrown around is ridiculous. I think it'll have very little effect on the result of the referendum. I would argue the news cycles benefit leave.
Leave was ahead , Remain needs to campaign to pull it back. Carney/IMF warnings were all wiped out on Thursday. They'll be nothing else in the news until Tuesday . Leaving 2 days for Remain to pull it back.
Twitter is not Britain as someone said, the liberal left are in an echo chamber , it has no resonance with the general public. They just see it as a mentally unstable nutter and a poor family without a mother. A naked attempt to link the murder to brexit supporters by Remain campaigns will be meet with disgust.
The only way it changes imho is if we get a direct link between the killer and Brexit support in the next days. Email/previous communication with Jo Cox.
Exactly the vast majority who cast (or have already cast a vote) do not know who the heck Britain First are, although they might guess he is more likely to be a Brexiter from that statement alone. But the number of people who will say "hmmm that man who was mentally ill and killed an MP said britain first and is probably a Leaver so I will vote Remain" are so few it will not affect the result one iota.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
All too murky...
Either way, it's a disaster.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
Do you have a link of that? First I've heard of it.
And does the BNP have enough life in it to despise anything? I though it had been struck off as a political party by the EC?
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.
Weren't there two of them that said it? Would be certainly weird if they were both BNPers
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.
The only thing I know from dealings with the press is that the first version of events is invariably wrong.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.
Yep, time and again it emerges that initial reports about an incident are incomplete or just plain wrong. Twitter, message boards etc, though, mean that such an obvious truth is never going to make any difference.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
Do you have a link of that? First I've heard of it.
And does the BNP have enough life in it to despise anything? I though it had been struck off as a political party by the EC?
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.
Orlando is a clusterfcku of weirdness.
ISIS supporting, Latino gay murdering heterosexual G4S security guard who regularly cruised Pulse and gay dating sites for sex.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
Do you have a link of that? First I've heard of it.
And does the BNP have enough life in it to despise anything? I though it had been struck off as a political party by the EC?
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
All too murky...
Either way, it's a disaster.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
I wouldn't disagree with either of those. It was tragic event and has far reaching repercussions.
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.
what he means is who will win, Lol. will swingback win it for Remain on the day.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
WTF? This is getting beyond weird.
I have been very guilty of jumping to conclusions in the past but it really does seem like a week is needed for the full facts to emerge. Orlando being another example, initially looked gang related, then ISIS related then likely mental health issues.
The only thing I know from dealings with the press is that the first version of events is invariably wrong.
From personal experience - all sorts of rubbish is printed based on nothing more than a desire to file a few hundred words. It's terribly easy to follow what looks juicy - and then get burned by it - but hopefully your own eff-up won't be remembered.
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
How come TSE has banned so many LEAVERs in the last year?
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?
Well it already has had quite an impact on the campaign. But I don't think it will have any impact on the result beyond that, and campaigns tend not to have much effect anyhow, especially in the final days.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
How come TSE has banned so many LEAVERs in the last year?
Can I have some more tinfoil, please?
They've not been banned. Their posts are merely being routed through PBs premier server. Unfortunately it is located on Southern Thule....
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
FWIW after shortening to 2.5 on Betfair after the mid-week polls, LEAVE's price lengthened considerably to 2.9 this morning, before coming back in to its current level of 2.7.
After this horrible and needless death, I think we all need to reflect on our actions and words in politics on all sides. I include myself in this as a rather tribal Remain voter. At times, I have been disdainful and insulting to the Brexiteers and I apologise to all of them. At the same time, there should be a lot of guilt to go round. Everyone from David Cameron to Boris Johnson to Nigel Farage to George Osborne has made a deliberate tactic to use fear over hope in this campaign, and it's created a toxic, divisive atmosphere.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
All too murky...
Either way, it's a disaster.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
Completely agree, though I doubt we will see any unrest if Remain wins. If Leave wins, I'd expect the Trots and the SWP to be out and about looking for trouble.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
All too murky...
Either way, it's a disaster.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
I disagree with most of this analysis. Firstly, Remain led for months/years, and it is really only in the last few days that there have been serious suggestions of the vote being close or a Leave win. People who indulge in conspiracy theories should be ignored (unless they have guns). Secondly, a Leave win would already have been destined to have created an atmosphere of Intolerant Britain, with plenty of revulsion at the thought that the likes of Farage and Gove had hijacked the country. I can imagine quite ugly scenes and events, mainly from racists who might think their victory gave them the right to take things into their own hands. But things would settle down quickly as people began to recognise that Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc. were still the biggest cheeses and not as much had changed as people had been led to believe. (Though there might be quite a bit of voters' regret if the economic situation worsens.)
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
All too murky...
Either way, it's a disaster.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
Completely agree, though I doubt we will see any unrest if Remain wins. If Leave wins, I'd expect the Trots and the SWP to be out and about looking for trouble.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
The establishment rarely lose from elections as they're contested between different branches.
This referendum has though threatened the establishment and they are shocked, frightened and angry - witness Osborne's willingness to trash the economy (and make liars out of all Conservative campaigners) out of spite.
A Remain win will see some real hate inflicted on the working class and rural areas.
Am unsure if I'm getting an embargoed copy of the BMG polls.
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
Pretty meaningless now though?
Everything has changed.
Tomorrow's Opinium, about 95% of the fieldwork was completed before 1pm yesterday.
So equally meaningless then. When would the next poll be with the majority of the fieldwork done after the event?
Possibly a YouGov. We might get one in tomorrow's Sunday Times.
I've asked Tim Shipman, no response yet. Last week he told me straight away.
Thanks.
Just cause I can, tomorrow ain't Sunday.
Well the Sunday Times poll comes out Saturday night.
Nice get out!
After the Indyref, when some people got into a tizzy over what was meant by a poll coming out on in Wednesday's telegraph meant, I always use the day the poll is released.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
All too murky...
Either way, it's a disaster.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
Completely agree, though I doubt we will see any unrest if Remain wins. If Leave wins, I'd expect the Trots and the SWP to be out and about looking for trouble.
As I understand the far-left have not been supporting Remain. I don't expect unrest if either side win, but I do expect a diseased and difficult political climate that won't be too easy to clear.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
The establishment rarely lose from elections as they're contested between different branches.
This referendum has though threatened the establishment and they are shocked, frightened and angry - witness Osborne's willingness to trash the economy (and make liars out of all Conservative campaigners) out of spite.
A Remain win will see some real hate inflicted on the working class and rural areas.
And 40 years of grumbling until we get another go....
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
All too murky...
Either way, it's a disaster.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
I disagree with most of this analysis. Firstly, Remain led for months/years, and it is really only in the last few days that there have been serious suggestions of the vote being close or a Leave win. People who indulge in conspiracy theories should be ignored (unless they have guns). Secondly, a Leave win would already have been destined to have created an atmosphere of Intolerant Britain, with plenty of revulsion at the thought that the likes of Farage and Gove had hijacked the country. I can imagine quite ugly scenes and events, mainly from racists who might think their victory gave them the right to take things into their own hands. But things would settle down quickly as people began to recognise that Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn etc. were still the biggest cheeses and not as much had changed as people had been led to believe. (Though there might be quite a bit of voters' regret if the economic situation worsens.)
Lol! What a lot of confirmation bias and nonsense.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
I've just noticed my fridge door has been open for a day and everything in it has either started to evolve or gone a strange colour. I've shut the door. I can't face it.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
We all know which thread PB needs....
There has never been a better time to dicuss the merits of AV.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
We all know which thread PB needs....
There has never been a better time to dicuss the merits of AV.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.
You've had it explained to you twice already today. Korsakoffs?
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.
It is mocking SJW types who throw racist around every time they are losing an argument to try and shut the debate down.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.
"waycist" - how a child might say racist. Because stupid name-calling when someone has lost the argument is childish. I think.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
People in favour of change like referendums as the means by which they achieve it. Those favouring the status quo dislike them because they don't see a need for them. But referendums like the Brexit one are not objective arbiters. They are used as political tools. David Cameron called this referendum either because he wasn't able to face down the faction in his party that wanted to force through change, or because he thought a referendum would endorse his political position. In both cases the fact there was a referendum indicates his weak political position
That however is a different point from the mechanics of the referendum vote, which is absolutely zero sum.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:
Interesting that campaigning has ceased everywhere except pb.com.
What goes on here can hardly be called campaigning. If any of the regulars claimed to be undecided I would be the first to point and laugh. I'm just hanging out here to see how long it takes Sean to decide to vote Remain rather than be exiled from the media dinner party circuit for all eternity . Oh, and the AV thread of course.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.
What we need is an Indyerf2 thread.
I did a few days ago. Brexit leads to Indyref2 thread
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
Maybe - Leave is tightening again I notice on Betfair - was out to 3 now in to 2.68.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero sum than a referendum, which is why I don't like them. You are going to people and asking "Which is it? Yes or No? Black or White? Take it or Leave it?" When it really is "Depends. Up to a Point. Let's see what we get and then make a decision." Or even, "I don't know - you work it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - when the main parties are *all the same* - millions of disenfranchised voters revolt. They join and vote for fringe parties to make their point instead.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
What is it with the deliberate misspelling of racist? It's very, very odd.
"waycist" - how a child might say racist. Because stupid name-calling when someone has lost the argument is childish. I think.
Deep irony. It's childish in and of itself. Can we put it on the verboten list?
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.
What we need is an Indyerf2 thread.
I did a few days ago. Brexit leads to Indyref2 thread
no a proper one with James Kelly and Mick Pork and the cast of wings over somerset
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
Is it just turning out now that everyone is secretly a member of some far-right hate group?
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
There is no exit poll.
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
anyhoo Darth Eagles, what;s the status with Moniker ?
naughty step or Siberia ?
The mods tell me naughty step for the weekend.
well I think we all need a cooling off things were getting progressively more heated.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
I was going to publish an AV related thread tonight, but have had to push that to either tomorrow or Sunday.
What we need is an Indyerf2 thread.
I did a few days ago. Brexit leads to Indyref2 thread
no a proper one with James Kelly and Mick Pork and the cast of wings over somerset
ah fun days
I for one do not miss *tears of laughter* and *titter* and *chortle*. I do however, miss Martin Day. If only he could have metaphorically lived to see this day.
did it ask you which of the two conservative parties you'd vote for ?
Sadly not. I spent last night contemplating life outside of the Tory party.
Don't go.
If Farage joins/is ennobled/becomes a member of a post Leave Tory led government, I'm outta here
Do you think I'm going to let that happen, or any of us sane Leavers?
Farage has caused nothing but trouble for us and contaminated our campaign.
I detest him.
Boris will do anything to be PM, including all of the above involving Farage
You remainers have a bizarre fascination with Boris and IDS, Makes mine with Osborne look mild. This is a win win no PM Boris no PM George. IDS is history.
Comments
Populus for sure, and YouGov will be doing recontacting on the day polls.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it."
Yes.
Turned out to be complete boulderdash !
Leave are ahead. Just.
Most importantly, Jo lost her life and her family a mother and wife. In addition to that:
If Remain win, the result will now probably be blamed on this. The result is in serious danger of being rejected, particularly due to all the Brexit leads prior to the event, and could spawn many conspiracy theories. It could lead to some real unrest. Ugly.
If Leave win, negotiations will be soured by some in the EU thinking we've just shrugged off a strand of Nazi-lite thinking, that's how they'll see it, which leaves serious questions hanging over us.
The stakes just got even higher.
And does the BNP have enough life in it to despise anything? I though it had been struck off as a political party by the EC?
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/17/britain-first-eyewitness-bnp-member-list/
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And its a lot easier to 'take from them' if they can be demonised.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
Orlando is a clusterfcku of weirdness.
ISIS supporting, Latino gay murdering heterosexual G4S security guard who regularly cruised Pulse and gay dating sites for sex.
That's one seriously conflicted dead arsehole.
naughty step or Siberia ?
Can I have some more tinfoil, please?
Just cause I can, tomorrow ain't Sunday.
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Trots and SWP always up for trouble either way.
We only got a referendum *because* one of the main parties was scared it'd lose too many more votes to UKIP. And now the can of worms is open. And those who wanted to ignore all the unhappiness are being faced with it - in spades.
They don't like it - so name-call 50% of the population waycists, xenophobes, stupid, vulgar, Little Englanders and on and on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
This referendum has though threatened the establishment and they are shocked, frightened and angry - witness Osborne's willingness to trash the economy (and make liars out of all Conservative campaigners) out of spite.
A Remain win will see some real hate inflicted on the working class and rural areas.
hows about a lighter thread or two ?
your top 3 PB moments ?
It was clearly protesting over Brexit.
A Labour friend said a few months later that was like signing up for the Texas Army after The Alamo.
I always thought it was more noble to be a Travis than a Santa Anna
If we all promise to be polite will you withdraw this threat please?
"waycist" - how a child might say racist. Because stupid name-calling when someone has lost the argument is childish. I think.
That however is a different point from the mechanics of the referendum vote, which is absolutely zero sum.
That's why I have so little confidence in the result.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3609357/Operation-Black-Vote-unveils-controversial-referendum-poster-comparing-Asian-woman-angry-white-thug-Nigel-Farage-claims-goes-far.html
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
Farage has caused nothing but trouble for us and contaminated our campaign.
I detest him.
The other could be termed a "UK Independence Party" !
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
ah fun days
"It’s an attack on democracy, what happened yesterday; it’s the well of hatred that killed her."
Says the friend of the IRA..
If success is measured in money then people need to be constantly having more of it and also more than others have.
And when you have economic stagnation the easiest way to achieve that is to have it taken from someone else.
Britain needs to concentrate of quality of life issues instead of living standards.
That's my kind of style.
I can't see me doing a Winston McKenzie
You have a chance to pick a normal person.