Completely agree. This is not about left or right, it is about class. The middle class establishment - Leave and Remain - has shown it knows nothing about and cares very little for working class voters. They are the punch-bags of this country and will continue to be so. The truth is that the working class's problem is that it is now nowhere near 50% of the population. It is not important politically in normal circumstances and so can be safely ignored. It is Mondeo man who matters, or Worcester woman; not people that live in sink estates in Leeds, Liverpool or London. They either do not vote or live in very safe Labour constituencies. It's the nature of a referendum - no constituencies, a binary choice - that has given the working class its day in the sun. On 24th June they will be forgotten or despised once more.
The establishment is not middle class. It is a class of its own, that thinks itself superior to the middle classes and all other classes.
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
Strictly I agree with you. I don't think either the murder itself or details as they emerge concerning the killer will greatly affect voting intentions. However halting the campaign does because in the absence of much happening and inevitable loss of momentum there's almost bound to be some drift back to what voters mistakenly see as the status quo ie Remain.
There seems to be an increasing narrative from labour that this was a hate crime and most labour politician seems to be trying to tie it in with Farage and his poster. I cannot stand the man but Alastair Campbell directly levered into an interview on Sky and the International coverage is doing the same. Whether it is fair or not I believe with more information coming out about the alleged assassin over the next few days and with the HOC tribute on Monday it may just be that Farage could have lost this for leave from a winning position. Indeed the betting and money markets seem to be indicating a more likely result will be remain. My own personal view is that leave may just win but it is less certain than it was and I also believe that any polls researched before yesterday's terrible events need to be considered with caution
I can't imagine anything more likely to put the backs up people who are contemplating a vote for Leave. Especially, Labour voters.
The rhetoric seems to have jump up a notch. No longer are you "like Farage" if you vote Leave, but apparently you are like a mentally-disturbed killer.
Reposting from another (investing) forum that analyses Brexit etc: (P2P)
The poster knows his onions...
A few days ago I posted a link to an online poll showing an unbelievable 81% Leave vote www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/ which is now up to c. 133,000 votes. Clearly the types of people finding and responding to that poll (I found it via a link on a broadsheet comment section) are not the average demographic that the polling agencies have so carefully constructed.
The bar graph on that page can be changed to a line graph over time by clicking the bottom right icon. Given the events of the last 24 hours, and what may be a muted tone for the remainder of the campaign, I thought it might be worth analysing how the votes on this poll have been allocated on a daily basis since the start of June.
Apart from the 9th of June, the 2000 plus votes added each day have been pretty consistently around the 80% mark for leave. The votes so far today seem in line with recent days.
Surely this is just a voodoo poll.
Wouldn't let me vote as I'm not in the UK. Looks like a voodoo poll though, has a self-selecting participation. Oh, and it says 81/16/3 which is way out of line with anything else!
I don't think that's the point Pulpstar is making. The point is today has been no different to any other day. Perhaps the 81% are the sort of Leavers that won't let anything affect them, but the insinuation is that if the murder was to have an affect it would have shown up - if only very slightly - in that poll.
There seems to be an increasing narrative from labour that this was a hate crime and most labour politician seems to be trying to tie it in with Farage and his poster. I cannot stand the man but Alastair Campbell directly levered into an interview on Sky and the International coverage is doing the same. Whether it is fair or not I believe with more information coming out about the alleged assassin over the next few days and with the HOC tribute on Monday it may just be that Farage could have lost this for leave from a winning position. Indeed the betting and money markets seem to be indicating a more likely result will be remain. My own personal view is that leave may just win but it is less certain than it was and I also believe that any polls researched before yesterday's terrible events need to be considered with caution
I can't imagine anything more likely to put the backs up people who are contemplating a vote for Leave. Especially, Labour voters.
The rhetoric seems to have jump up a notch. No longer are you "like Farage" if you vote Leave, but apparently you are like a mentally-disturbed killer.
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
The BBC News website is bordering on the farcical. If Diana had died during the internet age, I don't think you would have seen much more coverage.
13 stories - including a rolling news feed and 'In Pictures' 5 videos - including of a little girl crying at the murder scene; and a Canadian MP crying
This is wall to wall broadcast coverage and Sky are saying just now that proper campaigning will not start before Tuesday. I cannot believe that over the next few days anyone will be unaware of this tragic event
You think I'm going to spend Father Day on maudlin shroud waving ?
I hope everyone who is a Father, or Grandfather like myself will have a wonderful and happy day on Sunday. Last year on Fathers day my eldest son married his Canadian fiancee in Kelowna, BC and it was the first time in 25 years my two sons, and my daughter had been with me on Fathers Day. At the end of this month he leaves New Zealand after 13 years and starts his married life in Vancouver.
Best wishes for a good day Mr G I'll be celebrating early tomorrow with my daughter in Oxfordshire and then spoiling my other half on Sunday,
here's to good weather !
I knew Fathers day was a big deal in the US, I didn't know it was over here. I should be getting more attention from my offspring. Maybe on Sunday they will try very hard not to ask me for money or lifts.
I've never had anything for Father's day. They're all out of the will .
Reposting from another (investing) forum that analyses Brexit etc: (P2P)
The poster knows his onions...
A few days ago I posted a link to an online poll showing an unbelievable 81% Leave vote www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/ which is now up to c. 133,000 votes. Clearly the types of people finding and responding to that poll (I found it via a link on a broadsheet comment section) are not the average demographic that the polling agencies have so carefully constructed.
The bar graph on that page can be changed to a line graph over time by clicking the bottom right icon. Given the events of the last 24 hours, and what may be a muted tone for the remainder of the campaign, I thought it might be worth analysing how the votes on this poll have been allocated on a daily basis since the start of June.
Apart from the 9th of June, the 2000 plus votes added each day have been pretty consistently around the 80% mark for leave. The votes so far today seem in line with recent days.
Surely this is just a voodoo poll.
Wouldn't let me vote as I'm not in the UK. Looks like a voodoo poll though, has a self-selecting participation. Oh, and it says 81/16/3 which is way out of line with anything else!
The posters point is the results haven't changed over the last few days. The headline figures are bunkum (If you conducted a poll of solely white van drivers they would be too) but a change would still show in the bias sample if there was an underlying change I reckon most likely...
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers nee...... Yes.
.... o do.
There is nothing more zero it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - instead.
We it - in spades.
They on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers. The contempt for the working class from the right has been as vicious as anything thrown from the left. And the right have also put in place plenty of policies over the last few years that have actively hurt working class people - all cheered on by many people on this board who have suddenly discovered the working class may actually be politically useful.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am off to see my working class father in hospital. Being concerned about the working class is not something new to me. Think about it before you issue a wide smear. Instead of being on here, why not go out and cheer up someone else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: "I feel nothing but contempt for right wingers who have suddenly discovered that the working class have been having a pretty crap time of it for a number of years". I did not say all right wingers. I was very careful to qualify it.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers nee...... Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And ed.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - instead.
We it - in spades.
They on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. But you are correct that I feel nothing but contempt for right wingers who have suddenly discovered that the working class have been having a pretty crap time of it for a number of years. And the idea that when Boris, Priti and co do take over they are going to be remotely concerned about people whose votes they no longer need and whose lives they know nothing about is far-fetched to say the least.
Hang about. A couple of weeks ago I posted on here saying how my experiences of the poorest (through campaigning on some of the poorest estates and listening to them) had changed my mind and I now feel much more affinity and sympathy for them.
British voters are deeply and evenly divided about whether to quit the European Union in next week's historic vote, according to a NBC News/SurveyMonkey U.K. poll.
The new poll has the historic vote as a toss-up: 48 percent of Britons say they'll cast a vote to "Leave" the EU in the referendum known as "Brexit," and an identical 48 percent prefer to "Remain." A mere 4 percent are undecided just a week before the June 23 vote.
Reposting from another (investing) forum that analyses Brexit etc: (P2P)
The poster knows his onions...
A few days ago I posted a link to an online polel showing an unbelievable 81% Leave vote www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/ which is now up to c. 133,000 votes. Clearly the types of people finding and responding to that poll (I found it via a link on a broadsheet comment section) are not the average demographic that the polling agencies have so carefully constructed.
The bar graph on that page can be changed to a line graph over time by clicking the bottom right icon. Given the events of the last 24 hours, and what may be a muted tone for the remainder of the campaign, I thought it might be worth analysing how the votes on this poll have been allocated on a daily basis since the start of June.
Apart from the 9th of June, the 2000 plus votes added each day have been pretty consistently around the 80% mark for leave. The votes so far today seem in line with recent days.
Reposting from another (investing) forum that analyses Brexit etc: (P2P)
The poster knows his onions...
A few days ago I posted a link to an online poll showing an unbelievable 81% Leave vote www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/ which is now up to c. 133,000 votes. Clearly the types of people finding and responding to that poll (I found it via a link on a broadsheet comment section) are not the average demographic that the polling agencies have so carefully constructed.
The bar graph on that page can be changed to a line graph over time by clicking the bottom right icon. Given the events of the last 24 hours, and what may be a muted tone for the remainder of the campaign, I thought it might be worth analysing how the votes on this poll have been allocated on a daily basis since the start of June.
Apart from the 9th of June, the 2000 plus votes added each day have been pretty consistently around the 80% mark for leave. The votes so far today seem in line with recent days.
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am off to see my working class father in hospital. Being concerned about the working class is not something new to me. Think about it before you issue a wide smear. Instead of being on here, why not go out and cheer up someone else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: "I feel nothing but contempt for right wingers who have suddenly discovered that the working class have been having a pretty crap time of it for a number of years". I did not say all right wingers. I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed this before over the years. Left wing and right wing are just meaningless. We use them as shorthand, but they don't signify any longer. Has anyone ever read any of Sampson's 'Anatomy of Britain' at all? The country has changed out of all recognition, including our political classes (more so in Labour) yet we're still using labels dating from the early 20th century.
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, except we're showing up the idea of a classless society as being the great steaming pile of ordure it always was.
During this farcical armistice, what's to stop someone just going out and leafleting? How will Not Campaigning be policed?
Vote Remain are continuing with their street stalls under the guise of opening condolence books. Surely that means Vote Leave will be doing the same? Does that mean all political leaflets have to be - quite literally - off the (trestle) table? Perhaps the leaflets can be on a neighbouring table, there if anyone wants one, but not being proactively handed out?
Expect stories over the weekend of one side or the other breaking the No Campaigning Armistice is some way shape or form, as one side tries to smear the other with callousness/cynicism etc.
Reposting from another (investing) forum that analyses Brexit etc: (P2P)
The poster knows his onions...
A few days ago I posted a link to an online poll showing an unbelievable 81% Leave vote www.pollstation.uk/eu-referendum/poll/ which is now up to c. 133,000 votes. Clearly the types of people finding and responding to that poll (I found it via a link on a broadsheet comment section) are not the average demographic that the polling agencies have so carefully constructed.
The bar graph on that page can be changed to a line graph over time by clicking the bottom right icon. Given the events of the last 24 hours, and what may be a muted tone for the remainder of the campaign, I thought it might be worth analysing how the votes on this poll have been allocated on a daily basis since the start of June.
Apart from the 9th of June, the 2000 plus votes added each day have been pretty consistently around the 80% mark for leave. The votes so far today seem in line with recent days.
Surely this is just a voodoo poll.
Wouldn't let me vote as I'm not in the UK. Looks like a voodoo poll though, has a self-selecting participation. Oh, and it says 81/16/3 which is way out of line with anything else!
I don't think that's the point Pulpstar is making. The point is today has been no different to any other day. Perhaps the 81% are the sort of Leavers that won't let anything affect them, but the insinuation is that if the murder was to have an affect it would have shown up - if only very slightly - in that poll.
Ah, right. Still a voodoo poll though, why would anyone believe anything about it? The Betfair graph is possibly a better (bettor!) indication. It stuttered a bit yesterday morning on the +/-10 poll but bounced straight back to where it was a couple of hours later. http://politicalodds.bet/eu-referendum?time=3#i
Completely agree. This is not about left or right, it is about class. The middle class establishment - Leave and Remain - has shown it knows nothing about and cares very little for working class voters. They are the punch-bags of this country and will continue to be so. The truth is that the working class's problem is that it is now nowhere near 50% of the population. It is not important politically in normal circumstances and so can be safely ignored. It is Mondeo man who matters, or Worcester woman; not people that live in sink estates in Leeds, Liverpool or London. They either do not vote or live in very safe Labour constituencies. It's the nature of a referendum - no constituencies, a binary choice - that has given the working class its day in the sun. On 24th June they will be forgotten or despised once more.
The establishment is not middle class. It is a class of its own, that thinks itself superior to the middle classes and all other classes.
I'd say it is. The upper class aristocracy is pretty marginal these days. It has fallen to various strands of the middle class to help out - public school boys and girls mostly in all the major parties. And you'll find pretty much the same at the top of the media, the judiciary, the armed services and so on.
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am off to see my working class father in hospital. Being concerned about the working class is not something new to me. Think about it before you issue a wide smear. Instead of being on here, why not go out and cheer up someone else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: "I feel nothing but contempt for right wingers who have suddenly discovered that the working class have been having a pretty crap time of it for a number of years". I did not say all right wingers. I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed this before over the years. Left wing and right wing are just meaningless. We use them as shorthand, but they don't signify any longer. Has anyone ever read any of Sampson's 'Anatomy of Britain' at all? The country has changed out of all recognition, including our political classes (more so in Labour) yet we're still using labels dating from the early 20th century.
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, except we're showing up the idea of a classless society as being the great steaming pile of ordure it always was.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I think that's right. The great majority of people are going to see this as solemn words from MPs after one of their number has been murdered. They won't decode it into a subliminal "vote Remain". Meanwhile Leave is ahead and the clock is running down.
Agree. Also think the Neo Nazi links help - normal people dont associate leave with that so it distances them
British voters are deeply and evenly divided about whether to quit the European Union in next week's historic vote, according to a NBC News/SurveyMonkey U.K. poll.
The new poll has the historic vote as a toss-up: 48 percent of Britons say they'll cast a vote to "Leave" the EU in the referendum known as "Brexit," and an identical 48 percent prefer to "Remain." A mere 4 percent are undecided just a week before the June 23 vote.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers nee...... Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And ed.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - instead.
We it - in spades.
They on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. But you are correct that I feel nothing but contempt for right wingers who have suddenly discovered that the working class have been having a pretty crap time of it for a number of years. And the idea that when Boris, Priti and co do take over they are going to be remotely concerned about people whose votes they no longer need and whose lives they know nothing about is far-fetched to say the least.
Hang about. A couple of weeks ago I posted on here saying how my experiences of the poorest (through campaigning on some of the poorest estates and listening to them) had changed my mind and I now feel much more affinity and sympathy for them.
Now you hold me in contempt?
No, I don't in any way at all. As I said at the time I really admired your honesty in that post. But I am afraid I think that others on the Leave right have been a lot more cynical.
During this farcical armistice, what's to stop someone just going out and leafleting? How will Not Campaigning be policed?
Vote Remain are continuing with their street stalls under the guise of opening condolence books. Surely that means Vote Leave will be doing the same? Does that mean all political leaflets have to be - quite literally - off the (trestle) table? Perhaps the leaflets can be on a neighbouring table, there if anyone wants one, but not being proactively handed out?
Expect stories over the weekend of one side or the other breaking the No Campaigning Armistice is some way shape or form, as one side tries to smear the other with callousness/cynicism etc.
During this farcical armistice, what's to stop someone just going out and leafleting? How will Not Campaigning be policed?
Vote Remain are continuing with their street stalls under the guise of opening condolence books. Surely that means Vote Leave will be doing the same? Does that mean all political leaflets have to be - quite literally - off the (trestle) table? Perhaps the leaflets can be on a neighbouring table, there if anyone wants one, but not being proactively handed out?
Expect stories over the weekend of one side or the other breaking the No Campaigning Armistice is some way shape or form, as one side tries to smear the other with callousness/cynicism etc.
Remain have said that individuals can continue to leaflet their local streets, but they will not be campaigning on street stalls and rally events i.e. they will not be badgering the public in the street when obviously very few people are in the mood to talk EU.
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am off to see my working class father in hospital. Being concerned about the working class is not something new to me. Think about it before you issue a wide smear. Instead of being on here, why not go out and cheer up someone else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed labels dating from the early 20th century.
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, except we're showing up the idea of a classless society as being the great steaming pile of ordure it always was.
Yeah, it's still all about class.
but increasingly class isnt about money its about attitude and values
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am off to see my working class father in hospital. Being concerned about the working class is not something new to me. Think about it before you issue a wide smear. Instead of being on here, why not go out and cheer up someone else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed labels dating from the early 20th century.
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, except we're showing up the idea of a classless society as being the great steaming pile of ordure it always was.
Yeah, it's still all about class.
but increasingly class isnt about money its about attitude and values
Yep. As ever, we're following the US. 'Red' and 'Blue' Britain. I weep for my country.
There seems to be an increasing narrative from labour that this was a hate crime and most labour politician seems to be trying to tie it in with Farage and his poster. I cannot stand the man but Alastair Campbell directly levered into an interview on Sky and the International coverage is doing the same. Whether it is fair or not I believe with more information coming out about the alleged assassin over the next few days and with the HOC tribute on Monday it may just be that Farage could have lost this for leave from a winning position. Indeed the betting and money markets seem to be indicating a more likely result will be remain. My own personal view is that leave may just win but it is less certain than it was and I also believe that any polls researched before yesterday's terrible events need to be considered with caution
I can't imagine anything more likely to put the backs up people who are contemplating a vote for Leave. Especially, Labour voters.
It seems ex-Labour MP Peter Hain was on LBC this morning and said all 'Leavers' were racists, which went completely unchallenged by Shelagh Fogarty. These people are just so full of bile.
Completely agree. This is not about left or right, it is about class. The middle class establishment - Leave and Remain - has shown it knows nothing about and cares very little for working class voters. They are the punch-bags of this country and will continue to be so. The truth is that the working class's problem is that it is now nowhere near 50% of the population. It is not important politically in normal circumstances and so can be safely ignored. It is Mondeo man who matters, or Worcester woman; not people that live in sink estates in Leeds, Liverpool or London. They either do not vote or live in very safe Labour constituencies. It's the nature of a referendum - no constituencies, a binary choice - that has given the working class its day in the sun. On 24th June they will be forgotten or despised once more.
The establishment is not middle class. It is a class of its own, that thinks itself superior to the middle classes and all other classes.
I'd say it is. The upper class aristocracy is pretty marginal these days. It has fallen to various strands of the middle class to help out - public school boys and girls mostly in all the major parties. And you'll find pretty much the same at the top of the media, the judiciary, the armed services and so on.
The division is more upper middle class, lower middle class and working class
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed labels dating from the early 20th century.
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, except we're showing up the idea of a classless society as being the great steaming pile of ordure it always was.
Yeah, it's still all about class.
but increasingly class isnt about money its about attitude and values
Not so sure about that, though I get where you are coming from. I reckon it's easier to move up class-wise thanks to becoming better off than it is to move down because you don't have any money. A poverty stricken Lord is still a member of the upper class no matter what, but I'd say that - generally speaking - if you earn at or around the 40% tax rate you can't really be working class, whatever your attitudes.
During this farcical armistice, what's to stop someone just going out and leafleting? How will Not Campaigning be policed?
Vote Remain are continuing with their street stalls under the guise of opening condolence books. Surely that means Vote Leave will be doing the same? Does that mean all political leaflets have to be - quite literally - off the (trestle) table? Perhaps the leaflets can be on a neighbouring table, there if anyone wants one, but not being proactively handed out?
Expect stories over the weekend of one side or the other breaking the No Campaigning Armistice is some way shape or form, as one side tries to smear the other with callousness/cynicism etc.
Remain have said that individuals can continue to leaflet their local streets, but they will not be campaigning on street stalls and rally events i.e. they will not be badgering the public in the street when obviously very few people are in the mood to talk EU.
Seems reasonable to me.
Is it obvious that very few people are in the mood to talk EU? Or is it just in the political/media circles? This is a genuine question as I've seen and heard no interest in the EU referendum at all so far in my area, and I see no evidence that yesterday's tragic event has changed that level of disinterest (or shyness).
British voters are deeply and evenly divided about whether to quit the European Union in next week's historic vote, according to a NBC News/SurveyMonkey U.K. poll.
The new poll has the historic vote as a toss-up: 48 percent of Britons say they'll cast a vote to "Leave" the EU in the referendum known as "Brexit," and an identical 48 percent prefer to "Remain." A mere 4 percent are undecided just a week before the June 23 vote.
Thank you. So Mirror/Telegraph/Guardian are roughly tied, with a clear lead for the MailOnline, and a less clear gap between 2-4 and Metro which outranks the Sun. In particular, the much-vaunted Times is nowhere. I must have just seen the Computer figures at some point in the past.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed labels dating from ths.
Yeah, it's still all about class.
but increasingly class isnt about money its about attitude and values
Not so sure about that, though I get where you are coming from. I reckon it's easier to move up class-wise thanks to becoming better off than it is to move down because you don't have any money. A poverty stricken Lord is still a member of the upper class no matter what, but I'd say that - generally speaking - if you earn at or around the 40% tax rate you can't really be working class, whatever your attitudes.
I believe the Earl of Cardigan was claiming JSA and training as a truck driver after he lost his family home
During this farcical armistice, what's to stop someone just going out and leafleting? How will Not Campaigning be policed?
Vote Remain are continuing with their street stalls under the guise of opening condolence books. Surely that means Vote Leave will be doing the same? Does that mean all political leaflets have to be - quite literally - off the (trestle) table? Perhaps the leaflets can be on a neighbouring table, there if anyone wants one, but not being proactively handed out?
Expect stories over the weekend of one side or the other breaking the No Campaigning Armistice is some way shape or form, as one side tries to smear the other with callousness/cynicism etc.
Remain have said that individuals can continue to leaflet their local streets, but they will not be campaigning on street stalls and rally events i.e. they will not be badgering the public in the street when obviously very few people are in the mood to talk EU.
Seems reasonable to me.
The campaign doesn't stop because some knobby politicians say stop. It is all over social media, it will be talked about in pubs and clubs (by sad nerdy people like us). This stop campaigning stuff is bollocks.
British voters are deeply and evenly divided about whether to quit the European Union in next week's historic vote, according to a NBC News/SurveyMonkey U.K. poll.
The new poll has the historic vote as a toss-up: 48 percent of Britons say they'll cast a vote to "Leave" the EU in the referendum known as "Brexit," and an identical 48 percent prefer to "Remain." A mere 4 percent are undecided just a week before the June 23 vote.
Thank you. So Mirror/Telegraph/Guardian are roughly tied, with a clear lead for the MailOnline, and a less clear gap between 2-4 and Metro which outranks the Sun. In particular, the much-vaunted Times is nowhere. I must have just seen the Computer figures at some point in the past.
The Times is behind the paywall, the Guardian and Mail are free
Completely agree. This is not about left or right, it is about class. The middle class establishment - Leave and Remain - has shown it knows nothing about and cares very little for working class voters. They are the punch-bags of this country and will continue to be so. The truth is that the working class's problem is that it is now nowhere near 50% of the population. It is not important politically in normal circumstances and so can be safely ignored. It is Mondeo man who matters, or Worcester woman; not people that live in sink estates in Leeds, Liverpool or London. They either do not vote or live in very safe Labour constituencies. It's the nature of a referendum - no constituencies, a binary choice - that has given the working class its day in the sun. On 24th June they will be forgotten or despised once more.
The establishment is not middle class. It is a class of its own, that thinks itself superior to the middle classes and all other classes.
I'd say it is. The upper class aristocracy is pretty marginal these days. It has fallen to various strands of the middle class to help out - public school boys and girls mostly in all the major parties. And you'll find pretty much the same at the top of the media, the judiciary, the armed services and so on.
The division is more upper middle class, lower middle class and working class
Well there are the broad ranks of the upper middle class, guys who work in banks and women who are accountants and so on. And there is the upper middle class that doesn't have as much income but has lots of cultural capital and lives in Hampstead and writes for LRB or Guardian. And then there is the upper middle class who went to private schools and sits at the top of the armed forces, judiciary, sports, civil service, the Conservative Party, and even British Hollywood. I imagine all three have divergent views on the referendum alone never mind other topics.
There seems to be an increasing narrative from labour that this was a hate crime and most labour politician seems to be trying to tie it in with Farage and his poster. I cannot stand the man but Alastair Campbell directly levered into an interview on Sky and the International coverage is doing the same. Whether it is fair or not I believe with more information coming out about the alleged assassin over the next few days and with the HOC tribute on Monday it may just be that Farage could have lost this for leave from a winning position. Indeed the betting and money markets seem to be indicating a more likely result will be remain. My own personal view is that leave may just win but it is less certain than it was and I also believe that any polls researched before yesterday's terrible events need to be considered with caution
I can't imagine anything more likely to put the backs up people who are contemplating a vote for Leave. Especially, Labour voters.
It seems ex-Labour MP Peter Hain was on LBC this morning and said all 'Leavers' were racists, which went completely unchallenged by Shelagh Fogarty. These people are just so full of bile.
The odious Alastair Campbell was on Sky in the last hour bemoaning the 'hate' of the Leave campaign, and of Farage in particular, imperiously chastising the media for not pulling him up on it.
To his credit, the anchor told him to give it a rest, and remember that campaigning was supposedly suspended - at least for today...
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers nee...... Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And ed.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - instead.
We it - in spades.
They on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do.
Hang about. A couple of weeks ago I posted on here saying how my experiences of the poorest (through campaigning on some of the poorest estates and listening to them) had changed my mind and I now feel much more affinity and sympathy for them.
Now you hold me in contempt?
Canvassing is an eyeopener that way, I remember DavidL saying the same about canvassing in the indyref.
I may jest about baby-eaters and the like, but in my experience political activists are almost always sincere in wanting the best for their people and country. They may be mistaken, obtuse, fixated on hobby horses or whatever, but they are almost always sincere in intent whether kipper or Cobynista. They just see the world and its priorities differently, and often with no comprehension as to how others could see the issue so opposite.
British voters are deeply and evenly divided about whether to quit the European Union in next week's historic vote, according to a NBC News/SurveyMonkey U.K. poll.
The new poll has the historic vote as a toss-up: 48 percent of Britons say they'll cast a vote to "Leave" the EU in the referendum known as "Brexit," and an identical 48 percent prefer to "Remain." A mere 4 percent are undecided just a week before the June 23 vote.
Thank you. So Mirror/Telegraph/Guardian are roughly tied, with a clear lead for the MailOnline, and a less clear gap between 2-4 and Metro which outranks the Sun. In particular, the much-vaunted Times is nowhere. I must have just seen the Computer figures at some point in the past.
Seems odd to me. However the charging models for various online editions must change the scores as they vary over time.
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
Most polls have at least 60% voting Leave in Scotland
"Cancel the planned referendum on Britain's continued membership of the EU.
According to the BBC (as at the 26th February 2016) 444 MPs of (almost) all parties have declared their support for Britain staying a member of the European Union on the basis of the reform package negotiated by the Prime Minister, David Cameron."
So I saw on facebook, I of course commented that I am glad to remain had conceded defeat.
Not so sure about that, though I get where you are coming from. I reckon it's easier to move up class-wise thanks to becoming better off than it is to move down because you don't have any money. A poverty stricken Lord is still a member of the upper class no matter what, but I'd say that - generally speaking - if you earn at or around the 40% tax rate you can't really be working class, whatever your attitudes.
I know lots of people who do hard physical work under some of the toughest conditions in the world but get paid well enough to be paying 40% tax. If you told them they weren't working class they would probably take you outside and batter you.
I have no idea how anyone defines the things these days and it all seems kind of pointless to me.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers nee...... Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain the people on the other side need to lose.
Its 'take it from them and give it to me'.
And ed.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - instead.
We it - in spades.
They on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. But you are correct that I feel nothing but contempt for right wingers who have suddenly discovered that the working class have been having a pretty crap time of it for a number of years. And the idea that when Boris, Priti and co do take over they are going to be remotely concerned about people whose votes they no longer need and whose lives they know nothing about is far-fetched to say the least.
Hang about. A couple of weeks ago I posted on here saying how my experiences of the poorest (through campaigning on some of the poorest estates and listening to them) had changed my mind and I now feel much more affinity and sympathy for them.
Now you hold me in contempt?
One thing that certainly came up at the meeting with Kelvin Hopkins was just how annoyed Labour Leave supporters were at being called Little Englanders.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed labels dating from ths.
Yeah, it's still all about class.
but increasingly class isnt about money its about attitude and values
Not so sure about that, though I get where you are coming from. I reckon it's easier to move up class-wise thanks to becoming better off than it is to move down because you don't have any money. A poverty stricken Lord is still a member of the upper class no matter what, but I'd say that - generally speaking - if you earn at or around the 40% tax rate you can't really be working class, whatever your attitudes.
I believe the Earl of Cardigan was claiming JSA and training as a truck driver after he lost his family home
Where did he lose it? People should keep an eye out for it.
Completely agree. This is not about left or right, it is about class. The middle class establishment - Leave and Remain - has shown it knows nothing about and cares very little for working class voters. They are the punch-bags of this country and will continue to be so. The truth is that the working class's problem is that it is now nowhere near 50% of the population. It is not important politically in normal circumstances and so can be safely ignored. It is Mondeo man who matters, or Worcester woman; not people that live in sink estates in Leeds, Liverpool or London. They either do not vote or live in very safe Labour constituencies. It's the nature of a referendum - no constituencies, a binary choice - that has given the working class its day in the sun. On 24th June they will be forgotten or despised once more.
The establishment is not middle class. It is a class of its own, that thinks itself superior to the middle classes and all other classes.
I'd say it is. The upper class aristocracy is pretty marginal these days. It has fallen to various strands of the middle class to help out - public school boys and girls mostly in all the major parties. And you'll find pretty much the same at the top of the media, the judiciary, the armed services and so on.
The division is more upper middle class, lower middle class and working class
Well there are the broad ranks of the upper middle class, guys who work in banks and women who are accountants and so on. And there is the upper middle class that doesn't have as much income but has lots of cultural capital and lives in Hampstead and writes for LRB or Guardian. And then there is the upper middle class who went to private schools and sits at the top of the armed forces, judiciary, sports, civil service, the Conservative Party, and even British Hollywood. I imagine all three have divergent views on the referendum alone never mind other topics.
What they have in common is they are more likely to be graduates and professionals and thus more likely to vote Remain than the nation as a whole, although of course many will still vote Leave
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
Most polls have at least 60% voting Leave in Scotland
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
Most polls have at least 60% voting Leave in Scotland
There was an STV Ipsos Mori only yesterday morning showing 53% Remain (down 13 points).
British voters are deeply and evenly divided about whether to quit the European Union in next week's historic vote, according to a NBC News/SurveyMonkey U.K. poll.
The new poll has the historic vote as a toss-up: 48 percent of Britons say they'll cast a vote to "Leave" the EU in the referendum known as "Brexit," and an identical 48 percent prefer to "Remain." A mere 4 percent are undecided just a week before the June 23 vote.
Thank you. So Mirror/Telegraph/Guardian are roughly tied, with a clear lead for the MailOnline, and a less clear gap between 2-4 and Metro which outranks the Sun. In particular, the much-vaunted Times is nowhere. I must have just seen the Computer figures at some point in the past.
Seems odd to me. However the charging models for various online editions must change the scores as they vary over time.
The Mail makes sense to me. Sorry to stereotype, but it seems as if whenever I pass by women in open-plan workplaces at lunchtime I see MailOnline. Except when I see them reading the Guardian online. I read Telegraph and Guardian and sometimes read the Mail when people send me funny stories, but not daily.
"I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers nee...... Yes.
We are in an era of demonization on all sides.
Politics is now a zero sum game - for your side to gain
And ed.
Even better if they can be successfully demonised then taking from them becomes the 'righteous' thing to do.
There is nothing more zero it out."
When you elect representatives, one lot is basically as good as another. It isn't as stark.
Cobblers - instead.
We it - in spades.
They on and on.
That's not grown-up politics, it's childish and insulting.
Not forgetting carrot-crunchers, football hooligans, people in semis in Watford and of course this:
The Stuart Rose / Emily Thornberry mentality is never short of intolerance and demonisation of people different to themselves.
Britain is not going to be a happy place now that it has discovered what it thinks of other parts of it.
The
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. But you are correct that I feel nothing but contempt for right wingers who have suddenly discovered that the working class have been having a pretty crap time of it for a number of years. And the idea that when Boris, Priti and co do take over they are going to be remotely concerned about people whose votes they no longer need and whose lives they know nothing about is far-fetched to say the least.
Hang about. A couple of weeks ago I posted on here saying how my experiences of the poorest (through campaigning on some of the poorest estates and listening to them) had changed my mind and I now feel much more affinity and sympathy for them.
Now you hold me in contempt?
No, I don't in any way at all. As I said at the time I really admired your honesty in that post. But I am afraid I think that others on the Leave right have been a lot more cynical.
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
That's very interesting. We've talked about the difficulties if Scotland keeps England in the EU. It would be ironic if Scotland actually ends up pushing England over the finish line
Jo Cox's death seems to have been sadly politicised. I imagine we will see interview after interview and article after article describing the Leave campaign as a campaign of hate and intolerance. Six days of this should do the trick.
I guess this is all Remain have left seeing as none of their other arguments have appeared to gain much traction.
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
Most polls have at least 60% voting Leave in Scotland
There was an STV Ipsos Mori only yesterday morning showing 53% Remain (down 13 points).
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
Most polls have at least 60% voting Leave in Scotland
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
The BBC News website is bordering on the farcical. If Diana had died during the internet age, I don't think you would have seen much more coverage.
13 stories - including a rolling news feed and 'In Pictures' 5 videos - including of a little girl crying at the murder scene; and a Canadian MP crying
I see Labour have opened a book of condolence. Will there be one in every town? Was there one for Lee Rigby?
It's unseemly. The Westminster and media elite have circled the wagons.
Surely Diana did die in the internet age! Sept 1997 PCs were pretty common by that time!
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
That's very interesting. We've talked about the difficulties if Scotland keeps England in the EU. It would be ironic if Scotland actually ends up pushing England over the finish line
What I'm really interested in is the working class in the housing schemes, who were canvassed by the Radical Independence Campaign during Indyref. They voted Yes in large numbers, but were outvoted by the oldies and the middle classes.
If the RIC Yes voters see Leave as the outlet for the change they sought during Indyref, and the oldies are voting out, then we're going out. This remains my gut instinct.
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
Most polls have at least 60% voting Leave in Scotland
Victory!
Sorry Remain
Where are these polls showing a majority for leave in Scotland ?
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
That's very interesting. We've talked about the difficulties if Scotland keeps England in the EU. It would be ironic if Scotland actually ends up pushing England over the finish line
I read somewhere and Malcolm seemed to confirm it on here that the Scots are far less concerned about this referendum than those of us south of the border. As a result it is thought that turnout might be lower here than elsewhere.
The feckless poor, scroungers, underclass, Chavs, the client state and so on. And that's before we get onto trade unionists and public sector workers.
You are so full of poison for these people "from the right" that I worry for your sanity. Do you ever smile, have fun or eat chocolate?
I do. least.
I am else?
It was not a wide smear, it was a very specific observation: I was very careful to qualify it.
You know we've discussed labels dating from ths.
Yeah, it's still all about class.
but increasingly class isnt about money its about attitude and values
Not so sure about that, though I get where you are coming from. I reckon it's easier to move up class-wise thanks to becoming better off than it is to move down because you don't have any money. A poverty stricken Lord is still a member of the upper class no matter what, but I'd say that - generally speaking - if you earn at or around the 40% tax rate you can't really be working class, whatever your attitudes.
I believe the Earl of Cardigan was claiming JSA and training as a truck driver after he lost his family home
Where did he lose it? People should keep an eye out for it.
Jo Cox's death seems to have been sadly politicised. I imagine we will see interview after interview and article after article describing the Leave campaign as a campaign of hate and intolerance. Six days of this should do the trick.
I guess this is all Remain have left seeing as none of their other arguments have appeared to gain much traction.
Agreed its all got very nasty. But as I said before insulting people doesn't change their minds. remain don't/have never realised this. Right back to when Cameron called UKIP voters closet racists.
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
The BBC News website is bordering on the farcical. If Diana had died during the internet age, I don't think you would have seen much more coverage.
13 stories - including a rolling news feed and 'In Pictures' 5 videos - including of a little girl crying at the murder scene; and a Canadian MP crying
I see Labour have opened a book of condolence. Will there be one in every town? Was there one for Lee Rigby?
It's unseemly. The Westminster and media elite have circled the wagons.
Surely Diana did die in the internet age! Sept 1997 PCs were pretty common by that time!
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
The BBC News website is bordering on the farcical. If Diana had died during the internet age, I don't think you would have seen much more coverage.
13 stories - including a rolling news feed and 'In Pictures' 5 videos - including of a little girl crying at the murder scene; and a Canadian MP crying
I see Labour have opened a book of condolence. Will there be one in every town? Was there one for Lee Rigby?
It's unseemly. The Westminster and media elite have circled the wagons.
Surely Diana did die in the internet age! Sept 1997 PCs were pretty common by that time!
PCs were common but personally I didn't go onto the internet until November 1998. More significantly there was no easy access social media in those early days.
Mr. Observer, lots of people have been a bit fraught or over the top. Not sure I've seen any comments by you in that vein, but I'm sure others understand how heated things can get
That said, the internet would be a bit better place with more posts of that nature.
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
That's very interesting. We've talked about the difficulties if Scotland keeps England in the EU. It would be ironic if Scotland actually ends up pushing England over the finish line
I read somewhere and Malcolm seemed to confirm it on here that the Scots are far less concerned about this referendum than those of us south of the border. As a result it is thought that turnout might be lower here than elsewhere.
I work frequently in the North East of England and there are posters/placards everywhere as I'm driving to meetings. I saw my first EU ref poster yesterday on this side of the Border. Battle fatigue has probably set in after a 2 year referendum campaign, a GE and a Holyrood election only a few weeks ago.
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
The BBC News website is bordering on the farcical. If Diana had died during the internet age, I don't think you would have seen much more coverage.
13 stories - including a rolling news feed and 'In Pictures' 5 videos - including of a little girl crying at the murder scene; and a Canadian MP crying
This is wall to wall broadcast coverage and Sky are saying just now that proper campaigning will not start before Tuesday. I cannot believe that over the next few days anyone will be unaware of this tragic event
You think I'm going to spend Father Day on maudlin shroud waving ?
I hope everyone who is a Father, or Grandfather like myself will have a wonderful and happy day on Sunday. Last year on Fathers day my eldest son married his Canadian fiancee in Kelowna, BC and it was the first time in 25 years my two sons, and my daughter had been with me on Fathers Day. At the end of this month he leaves New Zealand after 13 years and starts his married life in Vancouver.
I hope you enjoy your day though I have to say it is not one that I have ever recognised or observed. I have no memory at all of Fathers Day from the 1960s and early 1970s when growing up. I have always rather thought of it as a day invented by the cardmakers - largely a money making racket. What right do they have to tell us that Day X is Fathers Day?
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I'll try to be better.
Pax.
I've been an arse this week too, and my emotions have been all over the place.
I don't think post-murder polls will tell us much about its impact. It takes a few days for events to feed into voting intention. But (at risk of repeating myself) I don't think it will have much effect anyway.
If my real life conversations today are anything to go by, no effect.
Football and Brexit (as if yesterday didn't happen)
Just a couple of odd afterthought comments about the late MP. Has impacted about as much as a news report about a victim of a fatal accident on the M1
Its not as if anyone outside politics had ever heard of her until this kicked off
The BBC News website is bordering on the farcical. If Diana had died during the internet age, I don't think you would have seen much more coverage.
13 stories - including a rolling news feed and 'In Pictures' 5 videos - including of a little girl crying at the murder scene; and a Canadian MP crying
I see Labour have opened a book of condolence. Will there be one in every town? Was there one for Lee Rigby?
It's unseemly. The Westminster and media elite have circled the wagons.
Surely Diana did die in the internet age! Sept 1997 PCs were pretty common by that time!
PCs were common but personally I didn't go onto the internet until November 1998. More significantly there was no easy access social media in those early days.
I'd say even Nov 1998 was ahead of the majority of the population. My dad's clued-up and tech savvy, worked for a telephone company, and even he didn't get internet at home (as opposed to in the work place) until 2000. Good ol' dial-up; slow when the US was online; cheaper rate after 6pm ;-)
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
That's very interesting. We've talked about the difficulties if Scotland keeps England in the EU. It would be ironic if Scotland actually ends up pushing England over the finish line
I read somewhere and Malcolm seemed to confirm it on here that the Scots are far less concerned about this referendum than those of us south of the border. As a result it is thought that turnout might be lower here than elsewhere.
I work frequently in the North East of England and there are posters/placards everywhere as I'm driving to meetings. I saw my first EU ref poster yesterday on this side of the Border. Battle fatigue has probably set in after a 2 year referendum campaign, a GE and a Holyrood election only a few weeks ago.
As a matter of interest are the NE England private placards mainly Leave or Remain or a roughly even split?
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I'll try to be better.
Pax.
In one week it will all be over and no more national elections of significance in the UK until the county council elections next year
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I'll try to be better.
Pax.
In one week it will all be over and no more national elections of significance in the UK until the county council elections next year
I suspect there will be enough political drama to entertain us instead esp in the event of a Brexit vote
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I'll try to be better.
Pax.
My perception is that you've mainly been uncharacteristically gloomy as opposed to rude or unpleasant. But thank you for writing that, it's always nice to see civility flourishing on the Internet.
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I'll try to be better.
Pax.
I've been an arse this week too, and my emotions have been all over the place.
My apologies.
Pish and tosh. You're one of the most thoughtful and civilised posters here.
"The Chancellor has announced a five year plan aimed at reducing the budget deficit to overcome what he referrred to as short-term thinking. In his first Budget speech, Gordon Brown said the Government would only borrow to invest and public debt would be held at a prudent and stable level.
"We will now establish clear rules, a new discipline, openness and accountability," he said. "My first rule, the golden rule, ensures that over the economic cycle the Government will borrow only to invest and that current spending will be met from taxation."
"My second rule is that, as a proportion of national income, public debt will be held at a prudent and stable level over the economic cycle," he added.
In order to do this, the Chancellor said he would be implementing a five year deficit reduction plan."
Out with friends for a fortifying drink last night. All early 40s, professional jobs. Balance of Yes/No voters in Indyref. All voting Remain.
Very worried about EU ref as their parents (all were indyref No voters) had already postal voted, or were planning to vote Leave and were pretty passionate about it. Affluent central Scotland middle class types.
You think 2 or 3 Leavers in that company are going to admit to it?
I think we have to respect anecdota. If I was a professional middle class person in (say) my 30s with children and a mortgage I'd be voting Remain. Family before country. Country before party. Entirely rational and respectable.
The Indyref No voters were extremely vociferous in telling me why there were voting No at the time, and thought I was stark raving mad for voting Yes. We've been friends for 20+ years and we have very robust dialogue about politics. They are not shrinking violets.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
That's very interesting. We've talked about the difficulties if Scotland keeps England in the EU. It would be ironic if Scotland actually ends up pushing England over the finish line
I read somewhere and Malcolm seemed to confirm it on here that the Scots are far less concerned about this referendum than those of us south of the border. As a result it is thought that turnout might be lower here than elsewhere.
I work frequently in the North East of England and there are posters/placards everywhere as I'm driving to meetings. I saw my first EU ref poster yesterday on this side of the Border. Battle fatigue has probably set in after a 2 year referendum campaign, a GE and a Holyrood election only a few weeks ago.
As a matter of interest are the NE England private placards mainly Leave or Remain or a roughly even split?
I've seen more Leave than Remain, prob 60-70%. Much of my drive is through Northumberland and outskirts of Newcastle. The rural parts very much more Leave is in evidence. Farmers must be cross about some aspect of the CAP, I guess.
I found it startling when I first noticed it, as there was absolutely nothing at all back home. If you're a Leaver, you may be more motivated to put up a big billboard in your garden, but my analysis is completely unscientific.
You know what, it's been a shitty week. Sorry if I've upset people, been rude to them or been unpleasant. I know I have been. It's not how I really am, honestly :-)
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I'll try to be better.
Pax.
In one week it will all be over and no more national elections of significance in the UK until the county council elections next year
I suspect there will be enough political drama to entertain us instead esp in the event of a Brexit vote
Indeed but more commentary than argument and participation, electorally the main focus will be the US presidential election in November, though Australia also votes in July
Comments
The rhetoric seems to have jump up a notch. No longer are you "like Farage" if you vote Leave, but apparently you are like a mentally-disturbed killer.
Jumped up a notch? No, jumped the shark.
Now you hold me in contempt?
As of last year. Cant find more recent.
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/nrs-daily-mail-most-popular-uk-newspaper-print-and-online-23m-readers-month/
I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make here, except we're showing up the idea of a classless society as being the great steaming pile of ordure it always was.
Vote Remain are continuing with their street stalls under the guise of opening condolence books. Surely that means Vote Leave will be doing the same? Does that mean all political leaflets have to be - quite literally - off the (trestle) table? Perhaps the leaflets can be on a neighbouring table, there if anyone wants one, but not being proactively handed out?
Expect stories over the weekend of one side or the other breaking the No Campaigning Armistice is some way shape or form, as one side tries to smear the other with callousness/cynicism etc.
http://politicalodds.bet/eu-referendum?time=3#i
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/17/exclusive-jo-cox-friend-eyewitness-immoral-used-referendum-token/
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/brexit-referendum/poll-british-voters-split-brexit-think-eu-exit-vote-will-n594086
Seems reasonable to me.
You just KNOW somebody is going to come out with "Vote to Remain - it's what Jo would have wanted...."
Congratulations you are the first
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/
Over on Digital SPY a poster has sadi a female worker has done a REMAIN 4 JO screensaver!
It seems ex-Labour MP Peter Hain was on LBC this morning and said all 'Leavers' were racists, which went completely unchallenged by Shelagh Fogarty. These people are just so full of bile.
REMAIN have emailed me Jo Cox's article in the Yorkshire Post about why Brexit is not the answer to concerns about immigration.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/jo-cox-brexit-is-no-answer-to-real-concerns-on-immigration-1-7956822
To his credit, the anchor told him to give it a rest, and remember that campaigning was supposedly suspended - at least for today...
I may jest about baby-eaters and the like, but in my experience political activists are almost always sincere in wanting the best for their people and country. They may be mistaken, obtuse, fixated on hobby horses or whatever, but they are almost always sincere in intent whether kipper or Cobynista. They just see the world and its priorities differently, and often with no comprehension as to how others could see the issue so opposite.
The more crucial thing is middle class parents (mostly aged over 70) unanimously voting Leave. Doubt we'll see a thumping Remain vote, as per early polls. Might be more of an Indyref style 55-45 split, which wouldn't keep Remain afloat.
"Cancel the planned referendum on Britain's continued membership of the EU.
According to the BBC (as at the 26th February 2016) 444 MPs of (almost) all parties have declared their support for Britain staying a member of the European Union on the basis of the reform package negotiated by the Prime Minister, David Cameron."
So I saw on facebook, I of course commented that I am glad to remain had conceded defeat.
Oh it had a grand total of 7,500 signatures.
I have no idea how anyone defines the things these days and it all seems kind of pointless to me.
Apparently, Tooting was being gentrified and, therefore, should vote Tory.
I guess this is all Remain have left seeing as none of their other arguments have appeared to gain much traction.
http://www.edinburghnews.net/index.php/sid/244999915
If the RIC Yes voters see Leave as the outlet for the change they sought during Indyref, and the oldies are voting out, then we're going out. This remains my gut instinct.
I wouldnt vote for a government he was part of
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/earl-of-cardigan-seeing-police-beat-a-pregnant-woman-does-poison-your-view-8478415.html
It's time to take a chill pill. And to think before posting stuff. I wish red wine did not give me hangovers. I'd have a few glasses now.
I'll try to be better.
Pax.
That said, the internet would be a bit better place with more posts of that nature.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/
My apologies.
#Brexit: French minister says Britain has taken EU hostage https://t.co/3LMtQw1Td7 https://t.co/eftB8NZOn6
@AFP "If Britain voted to leave, the EU would need to act fast to avoid other countries starting a similar process."
All the BBC's funds were going on party poppers, balloons and champagne no doubt....
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Britannia-Statue.jpg
Note that we will get EEA and single market, probably with minimal dramas.
"The Chancellor has announced a five year plan aimed at reducing the budget deficit to overcome what he referrred to as short-term thinking.
In his first Budget speech, Gordon Brown said the Government would only borrow to invest and public debt would be held at a prudent and stable level.
"We will now establish clear rules, a new discipline, openness and accountability," he said. "My first rule, the golden rule, ensures that over the economic cycle the Government will borrow only to invest and that current spending will be met from taxation."
"My second rule is that, as a proportion of national income, public debt will be held at a prudent and stable level over the economic cycle," he added.
In order to do this, the Chancellor said he would be implementing a five year deficit reduction plan."
I found it startling when I first noticed it, as there was absolutely nothing at all back home. If you're a Leaver, you may be more motivated to put up a big billboard in your garden, but my analysis is completely unscientific.