At this stage of a campaign virtually everyone has made their minds up which way they are voting. Further hot air from politicians is superfluous.
The are three types of Don't knows left
1. Those that have decided 99.99% but because there is that scintilla of of 0.01% tell pollsters they are DKs. Pedants basically 2. The socks in sandals brigade, normally vote Lib Dem because they can't make a decision, they are actually 100% decided but like to tell everyone it needs careful thought, calm consideration. Summary Pompous prats. 3. Those who just can't be arsed would rather watch coronation Street than have to think abou it or think about anything come to that. Feckless, lazy twats.
1. Remain? 2. Remain? 3. Leave or Won't Vote?
In surveys something like 7% of people claim they only decided in the polling booth. Hard to believe, if you are politically engaged as we all are, but there are people who feel a duty to vote but actually don't have strong political opinions. And people who have second thoughts with the pencil in their hand. People who didn't mean to vote but walked passed the polling station on the way home and popped in on impulse. Etc.
I hovered a long time between Labour and LD at the last GE before going for Labour. I did the same in 2010 before going the other way.
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
The Nazis polled 43.9% in the March 1933 election.
Spooky! The same share as the good lady herself in 79.
But Mrs T got more seats than Nasty Adolf.
But due to first past the post she didnt need to burn down parliament, blame a labour activist, ban Labour for being terrorists and then pass emergency anti terrorist legislation allowing the cabinet to issue laws by decree.
(hopefully Im not giving dave and gideon ideas for next weeks remain campaign)
The Swedish euro referendum in 2003 is a reference point for what happens in this sort of situation.
What happened?
One of the country's leading pro-euro politicians was murdered a few days before the referendum. The country still voted against the Euro (by a big margin).
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I hope you are right.
FWIW, I am devastated about what has happened to Jo. I have a MP friend (well, bit estranged now) who was seriously threatened once and it was terrifying.
But this is being politicised, even if subtly.
Why wasn't Gisela Stuart or Kate Hoey, at the very least, there today too to remove any doubt of politicism?
They were all Remainers.
Cameron is PM, Corbyn is leader of the party she represented, Bercow is Speaker of the House. Having Stuart or Hoey there would have been politicisation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum.
Totally disagree. The absence of them *was* the politicalisation.
The referendum is the most important thing going on in the UK at the moment by a factor of thousands, and the atmosphere is tense and getting febrile.
The one way to show real unity and determination in the face of it would have been to have MPs from all sides (almost all have been threatened at one time or another) and factions there to pay their respects. It would also help to defuse it and any conspiracies.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I concur, freezing the campaign helps the side in front, which is Lead.
Are they though? They have momentum but I wouldn't call them favourites unless polls start showing them 5-6 points ahead. We aren't there yet. NI and expats will be a small negative for them and there's likely to be a small swingback to the status quo.
Leave lead in 9 of the last 11 published polls, I'd be confident in saying that amongst decided voters they are ahead.
I often dither in the polling booth. For the last London Mayoral election, I must have stood there for two minutes wondering what I was going to do.
Yep - the stark choice is laid out there in front of you and if you are not completely sure you do need a bit of time to decide what you are finally going to do. You can't rub your cross out and try again, so you have to be as sure as you can be before making your X.
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
The Nazis polled 43.9% in the March 1933 election.
Spooky! The same share as the good lady herself in 79.
But Mrs T got more seats than Nasty Adolf.
But due to first past the post she didnt need to burn down parliament, blame a labour activist, ban Labour for being terrorists and then pass emergency anti terrorist legislation allowing the cabinet to issue laws by decree.
(hopefully Im not giving dave and gideon ideas for next weeks remain campaign)
No but she did steal milk from the children. An utterly heinous crime which makes her literally worse than him
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
44%, but two-and-a-half times the votes of the nearest party.
Cube-law theory gives the Nazis 90% of the seats, so Goering wasn't out of the ballpark.
Do you think this ghastly murder may have a material impact on the campaign, Rod?
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I hope you are right.
FWIW, I am devastated about what has happened to Jo. I have a MP friend (well, bit estranged now) who was seriously threatened once and it was terrifying.
But this is being politicised, even if subtly.
Why wasn't Gisela Stuart or Kate Hoey, at the very least, there today too to remove any doubt of politicism?
They were all Remainers.
Cameron is PM, Corbyn is leader of the party she represented, Bercow is Speaker of the House. Having Stuart or Hoey there would have been politicisation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum.
Totally disagree. The absence of them *was* the politicalisation.
The referendum is the most important thing going on in the UK at the moment by a factor of thousands, and the atmosphere is tense and getting febrile.
The one way to show real unity and determination in the face of it would have been to have MPs from all sides (almost all have been threatened at one time or another) and factions there to pay their respects. It would also help to defuse it and any conspiracies.
Surely you see this?
No, I don't. It would have been a clear admission that the killing was somehow linked to the referendum. I'd go so far as to say that it would been disastrous for Leave to have had people take part.
Mr. D, not sure it was quite the same system, although I agree with you.
PR was responsible for Hitler coming to power. AV leads to depression, loneliness and Ed Miliband.
FPTP is the best system.
Quite right
Given the regional concentrations of support in inter-war Germany it is probably that Hitler's mid-30% election result would have delivered him a straight majority, or very close to it, under FPTP, whereas in reality he had to bully and dupe Hindenburg and other parties to achieve total power.
Goering reckoned the Nazis would have won every seat under FPTP...
Didn't they only get 40% of the vote? Or am I misremembering.
The Nazis polled 43.9% in the March 1933 election.
Spooky! The same share as the good lady herself in 79.
But Mrs T got more seats than Nasty Adolf.
But due to first past the post she didnt need to burn down parliament, blame a labour activist, ban Labour for being terrorists and then pass emergency anti terrorist legislation allowing the cabinet to issue laws by decree.
(hopefully Im not giving dave and gideon ideas for next weeks remain campaign)
It certainly is an interesting counter-factual as to what would have happened had the Reichstag not been set alight. I imagine the Nazis would have orchestrated another terror stunt to enable the arrest of the newly elected Communist deputies and some Social Democrats to ensure the Enabling Act was passed by the required 2/3 majority.
Street stalls are a bit of a macho p'eeing contest imho. They cheer up your core supporters and act as a magnet for your more excitable and/or aggressive opponents who feel obliged to offer some sort of confrontation. In the current atmosphere they are too inflammatory and this is the right decision.
TSE I think this decision tells us precisely nothing about each sides private polling.
If you want an idea about that, look at Leave's response to the polls which have been showing them in the lead. They are constantly talking them down and stressing that it is neck and neck.
They are desperate to stress how close it is, which indicates to me that they believe they are about to win this against all expectations and are desperate not to blow it through complacency or hubris.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
Brexiters (until now) really had no idea of the enormity of what they were up against.
I do have one point that I would suggest Leavers think about carefully.
I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it.
You might regard that as absurd. You might regard that as offensive. You might regard the Remain campaign as at least as culpable. I'm not really interested in ascribing blame.
But - and yes, there is another but - I am interested in all of us recognising the real feelings of each other and not just viewing everything through the prism of one referendum campaign. And then wondering why each other have these real feelings.
I have spent the morning from a different perspective reflecting on related points. I am well aware that I am not blameless in my own conduct.
There are other important things apart from the referendum result.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
Those engaging in what you have described better hope that if Remain win it is by a considerable margin.
I do have one point that I would suggest Leavers think about carefully.
I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it.
You might regard that as absurd. You might regard that as offensive. You might regard the Remain campaign as at least as culpable. I'm not really interested in ascribing blame.
But - and yes, there is another but - I am interested in all of us recognising the real feelings of each other and not just viewing everything through the prism of one referendum campaign. And then wondering why each other have these real feelings.
I have spent the morning from a different perspective reflecting on related points. I am well aware that I am not blameless in my own conduct.
There are other important things apart from the referendum result.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I think that's right. The great majority of people are going to see this as solemn words from MPs after one of their number has been murdered. They won't decode it into a subliminal "vote Remain". Meanwhile Leave is ahead and the clock is running down.
I do have one point that I would suggest Leavers think about carefully.
I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it.
You might regard that as absurd. You might regard that as offensive. You might regard the Remain campaign as at least as culpable. I'm not really interested in ascribing blame.
But - and yes, there is another but - I am interested in all of us recognising the real feelings of each other and not just viewing everything through the prism of one referendum campaign. And then wondering why each other have these real feelings.
I have spent the morning from a different perspective reflecting on related points. I am well aware that I am not blameless in my own conduct.
There are other important things apart from the referendum result.
@TudorRose Because it is Leavers who are getting most upset about this particular point of linkage.
I'd hoped my penultimate paragraph had indicated that I didn't regard this as a one way street.
I understood that your final sentence was your 'one point' and I agree that it applies to everyone, so why open your post with the 'suggestion' that only Leavers think about it?
Am unsure if I'm getting an embargoed copy of the BMG polls.
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
Pretty meaningless now though?
Everything has changed.
Doubt it. Hardly got a mention in the real world, just gloom about Brexit next week, football, and the odd comment along the lines of Who?, how sad, plenty of people in other occupations from bus drivers to policemen suffer the same.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I hope you are right.
FWIW, I am devastated about what has happened to Jo. I have a MP friend (well, bit estranged now) who was seriously threatened once and it was terrifying.
But this is being politicised, even if subtly.
Why wasn't Gisela Stuart or Kate Hoey, at the very least, there today too to remove any doubt of politicism?
They were all Remainers.
Cameron is PM, Corbyn is leader of the party she represented, Bercow is Speaker of the House. Having Stuart or Hoey there would have been politicisation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum.
Totally disagree. The absence of them *was* the politicalisation.
The referendum is the most important thing going on in the UK at the moment by a factor of thousands, and the atmosphere is tense and getting febrile.
The one way to show real unity and determination in the face of it would have been to have MPs from all sides (almost all have been threatened at one time or another) and factions there to pay their respects. It would also help to defuse it and any conspiracies.
Surely you see this?
No, I don't. It would have been a clear admission that the killing was somehow linked to the referendum. I'd go so far as to say that it would been disastrous for Leave to have had people take part.
I can't even remember what I voted, or voting at all, in that referendum. I must have voted as I have never missed a national election of any kind. But I have no recollection of doing so.
At this stage of a campaign virtually everyone has made their minds up which way they are voting. Further hot air from politicians is superfluous.
The are three types of Don't knows left
1. Those that have decided 99.99% but because there is that scintilla of of 0.01% tell pollsters they are DKs. Pedants basically 2. The socks in sandals brigade, normally vote Lib Dem because they can't make a decision, they are actually 100% decided but like to tell everyone it needs careful thought, calm consideration. Summary Pompous prats. 3. Those who just can't be arsed would rather watch coronation Street than have to think abou it or think about anything come to that. Feckless, lazy twats.
1. Remain? 2. Remain? 3. Leave or Won't Vote?
In surveys something like 7% of people claim they only decided in the polling booth. Hard to believe, if you are politically engaged as we all are, but there are people who feel a duty to vote but actually don't have strong political opinions. And people who have second thoughts with the pencil in their hand. People who didn't mean to vote but walked passed the polling station on the way home and popped in on impulse. Etc.
I hovered a long time between Labour and LD at the last GE before going for Labour. I did the same in 2010 before going the other way.
The most risk averse tend to make their minds up last. That's what happened in the Scottish independence referendum and is largely why Better Together won by ten points. It's also why I expect Remain to squeak this one.
The only time I can remember going to the polling station with any doubt about what I was going to do was at the last Scottish Parliament election. I was considering voting Labour to try and stop the Nationalists, but ended up voting Lib Dem on the basis that Labour hadn't actually bothered to ask for my vote and by that stage were almost certainly doomed regardless of what I did. Had a serious wobble when I saw an SNP car decked out in Saltires driving the other way as I headed to vote.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I hope you are right.
FWIW, I am devastated about what has happened to Jo. I have a MP friend (well, bit estranged now) who was seriously threatened once and it was terrifying.
But this is being politicised, even if subtly.
Why wasn't Gisela Stuart or Kate Hoey, at the very least, there today too to remove any doubt of politicism?
They were all Remainers.
Cameron is PM, Corbyn is leader of the party she represented, Bercow is Speaker of the House. Having Stuart or Hoey there would have been politicisation. This has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum.
Totally disagree. The absence of them *was* the politicalisation.
The referendum is the most important thing going on in the UK at the moment by a factor of thousands, and the atmosphere is tense and getting febrile.
The one way to show real unity and determination in the face of it would have been to have MPs from all sides (almost all have been threatened at one time or another) and factions there to pay their respects. It would also help to defuse it and any conspiracies.
Surely you see this?
No, I don't. It would have been a clear admission that the killing was somehow linked to the referendum. I'd go so far as to say that it would been disastrous for Leave to have had people take part.
Utter garbage. You are losing it.
I am afraid your response indicates that you are. We disagree. That's it.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
I feel like it is, but the desire to move on is understandable given the upcoming vote.
Interesting link about the husband in the comments.
Blimey.
It's a route the official "Vote leave" camp can't head within a mile of ^^;;;
?
I repost here for clarification only, and don't endorse the comment myself:
Boss Hogg
"I was also rather shocked that her husband Brendan Cox politicised her death within a couple of hours with his statement about "hatred". This from a man who was forced to resign from his highly-paid job at the Save The Children charity last year over multiple allegations of sexual misconduct."
At this stage of a campaign virtually everyone has made their minds up which way they are voting. Further hot air from politicians is superfluous.
The are three types of Don't knows left
1. Those that have decided 99.99% but because there is that scintilla of of 0.01% tell pollsters they are DKs. Pedants basically 2. The socks in sandals brigade, normally vote Lib Dem because they can't make a decision, they are actually 100% decided but like to tell everyone it needs careful thought, calm consideration. Summary Pompous prats. 3. Those who just can't be arsed would rather watch coronation Street than have to think abou it or think about anything come to that. Feckless, lazy twats.
1. Remain? 2. Remain? 3. Leave or Won't Vote?
In surveys something like 7% of people claim they only decided in the polling booth. Hard to believe, if you are politically engaged as we all are, but there are people who feel a duty to vote but actually don't have strong political opinions. And people who have second thoughts with the pencil in their hand. People who didn't mean to vote but walked passed the polling station on the way home and popped in on impulse. Etc.
I hovered a long time between Labour and LD at the last GE before going for Labour. I did the same in 2010 before going the other way.
The most risk averse tend to make their minds up last. That's what happened in the Scottish independence referendum and is largely why Better Together won by ten points. It's also why I expect Remain to squeak this one.
The only time I can remember going to the polling station with any doubt about what I was going to do was at the last Scottish Parliament election. I was considering voting Labour to try and stop the Nationalists, but ended up voting Lib Dem on the basis that Labour hadn't actually bothered to ask for my vote and by that stage were almost certainly doomed regardless of what I did. Had a serious wobble when I saw an SNP car decked out in Saltires driving the other way as I headed to vote.
I've only ever hesitated and changed my mind once - and it was fairly trivial. We had local council elections. I went in intending to split my two votes between Tories and LDs. After the tuition fees nonsense - my pencil wavered, and I gave both to the Tories.
I do have one point that I would suggest Leavers think about carefully.
I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it.
You might regard that as absurd. You might regard that as offensive. You might regard the Remain campaign as at least as culpable. I'm not really interested in ascribing blame.
But - and yes, there is another but - I am interested in all of us recognising the real feelings of each other and not just viewing everything through the prism of one referendum campaign. And then wondering why each other have these real feelings.
I have spent the morning from a different perspective reflecting on related points. I am well aware that I am not blameless in my own conduct.
There are other important things apart from the referendum result.
Yep, good post. It is important to accept that we can honestly disagree.
On topic: Love the Groucho Marx quote in the thread header.
Off topic: A question for PB voting procedure experts. A friend of mine has nominated me to do his proxy vote, this has arrived today. On the letter there is a typo in the spelling of my surname. It is only one letter that is wrong, will that make a difference when I go to cast his vote?
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
is complaining about politicisation actually politicisation ?
It's quite brilliant though, isn't it?
There's no possible reasonable objection Vote Leave can make to this that doesn't risk them looking paranoid, bitter or insensitive. So there is no choice but to accept it.
Meanwhile, the airwaves can be dominated with words like 'unity', 'no to division', and little nods to the far-right and EU ref. Monday is even better because 3/4 of all MPs are Remainers and you can bet your bottom dollar some will use the recall of parliament to make full-throated attacks on Leave that the BBC will cover.
It's effectively a new form of the pre-purdah period (when Remain had the upper hand) and, at the same time, Remain can now appeal to heart rather than just fear. Something they've singularly lacked for months.
It's brilliant. And very dangerous.
I think it comes too late to make much difference, and Remain needed to be campaigning hard to recover lost ground.
I think that's right. The great majority of people are going to see this as solemn words from MPs after one of their number has been murdered. They won't decode it into a subliminal "vote Remain". Meanwhile Leave is ahead and the clock is running down.
Totally agree. Some of the conspiracy stuff being thrown around is ridiculous. I think it'll have very little effect on the result of the referendum. I would argue the news cycles benefit leave.
Leave was ahead , Remain needs to campaign to pull it back. Carney/IMF warnings were all wiped out on Thursday. They'll be nothing else in the news until Tuesday . Leaving 2 days for Remain to pull it back.
Twitter is not Britain as someone said, the liberal left are in an echo chamber , it has no resonance with the general public. They just see it as a mentally unstable nutter and a poor family without a mother. A naked attempt to link the murder to brexit supporters by Remain campaigns will be meet with disgust.
The only way it changes imho is if we get a direct link between the killer and Brexit support in the next days. Email/previous communication with Jo Cox.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
We've got plenty of evidence now coming out about far-right links... if he didn't shout "Britain First" then that was a bloody lucky guess.
At this stage of a campaign virtually everyone has made their minds up which way they are voting. Further hot air from politicians is superfluous.
The are three types of Don't knows left
1. Those that have decided 99.99% but because there is that scintilla of of 0.01% tell pollsters they are DKs. Pedants basically 2. The socks in sandals brigade, normally vote Lib Dem because they can't make a decision, they are actually 100% decided but like to tell everyone it needs careful thought, calm consideration. Summary Pompous prats. 3. Those who just can't be arsed would rather watch coronation Street than have to think abou it or think about anything come to that. Feckless, lazy twats.
1. Remain? 2. Remain? 3. Leave or Won't Vote?
In surveys something like 7% of people claim they only decided in the polling booth. Hard to believe, if you are politically engaged as we all are, but there are people who feel a duty to vote but actually don't have strong political opinions. And people who have second thoughts with the pencil in their hand. People who didn't mean to vote but walked passed the polling station on the way home and popped in on impulse. Etc.
I hovered a long time between Labour and LD at the last GE before going for Labour. I did the same in 2010 before going the other way.
The most risk averse tend to make their minds up last. That's what happened in the Scottish independence referendum and is largely why Better Together won by ten points. It's also why I expect Remain to squeak this one.
The only time I can remember going to the polling station with any doubt about what I was going to do was at the last Scottish Parliament election. I was considering voting Labour to try and stop the Nationalists, but ended up voting Lib Dem on the basis that Labour hadn't actually bothered to ask for my vote and by that stage were almost certainly doomed regardless of what I did. Had a serious wobble when I saw an SNP car decked out in Saltires driving the other way as I headed to vote.
I am in favour of calculated risk. That is - if there is a great opportunity that might not work, but the odds indicate there is a good chance it will and there is not a huge downside if it doesn't. So, yes, I am cautious, but not prohibitively so. It's worked up to now for me, anyway.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
We've got plenty of evidence now coming out about far-right links... if he didn't shout "Britain First" then that was a bloody lucky guess.
I'm not excusing him in any way - the reported stuff is c20yrs old. No one thought he was political or threatening - just a reclusive, polite and friendly loner. He's clearly mentally ill - no one scrubs themselves with a Brillo pad for fun. I'm not convinced either way that the whole horrible thing was anything more than that.
On topic: Love the Groucho Marx quote in the thread header.
Off topic: A question for PB voting procedure experts. A friend of mine has nominated me to do his proxy vote, this has arrived today. On the letter there is a typo in the spelling of my surname. It is only one letter that is wrong, will that make a difference when I go to cast his vote?
Take as much ID as possible with you, but ring the council on Monday.
I am on the opposite side of this debate to Casino Royale but I agree with him. The tragic murder and the response to it will win this referendum for Remain. This is a crying shame. I did not want to win like this.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
The man who claimed Britain First was shouted has been found on a list of BNP supporters. The BNP and Britain First despise each other.
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Deary me Sunil. What a school boy error that was !
But I have a cunning plan, the same one wot I used on Election Day:
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Just realised that sounds a bit like Simon Pegg's plan in "Shaun of the Dead" - sort of
On topic: Love the Groucho Marx quote in the thread header.
Off topic: A question for PB voting procedure experts. A friend of mine has nominated me to do his proxy vote, this has arrived today. On the letter there is a typo in the spelling of my surname. It is only one letter that is wrong, will that make a difference when I go to cast his vote?
Take as much ID as possible with you, but ring the council on Monday.
Remain has moved out from 1.5 earlier this morning to 1.58 now.
I think Tyson's theory about private polls etc is a bit of a comfort blanket. No-one knows what is going on except that Leave has a very good chance of winning now.
There's going to be quite an interesting piece of investigative journalism on the origins of "Britain First".... That it appeared from nowhere when it did looks VERY convenient for Remain.
We've got plenty of evidence now coming out about far-right links... if he didn't shout "Britain First" then that was a bloody lucky guess.
I'm not excusing him in any way - the reported stuff is c20yrs old. No one thought he was political or threatening - just a reclusive, polite and friendly loner. He's clearly mentally ill - no one scrubs themselves with a Brillo pad for fun. I'm not convinced either way that the whole horrible thing was anything more than that.
I wonder when the police will openly discuss their preliminary findings?
Comments
(hopefully Im not giving dave and gideon ideas for next weeks remain campaign)
The referendum is the most important thing going on in the UK at the moment by a factor of thousands, and the atmosphere is tense and getting febrile.
The one way to show real unity and determination in the face of it would have been to have MPs from all sides (almost all have been threatened at one time or another) and factions there to pay their respects. It would also help to defuse it and any conspiracies.
Surely you see this?
Britain First 2 ?
Did you manage to resist voting for the Natural Law Party and yogic flying out of the poling ststion? It appears that we will have one side engaged in large scale leafet waving and the other engaged in large scale shroud waving.
Which way did you vote in the mayoral Alastair (if you don't mind my asking) ?
If I don't I'll cover them in the morning.
TSE I think this decision tells us precisely nothing about each sides private polling.
If you want an idea about that, look at Leave's response to the polls which have been showing them in the lead. They are constantly talking them down and stressing that it is neck and neck.
They are desperate to stress how close it is, which indicates to me that they believe they are about to win this against all expectations and are desperate not to blow it through complacency or hubris.
I've now voted for the successful candidate in the last three Mayoral elections. Those are the only elections when I've ever voted for the winner.
I really wanted to write something rude about Farage on it.
I completely understand that Leavers feel very upset about any linkage between the referendum campaign and Jo Cox's death. Whatever her killer's motives, he and he alone is responsible for his actions.
But - and yes, there is a but - Leavers need to understand that many small l liberals quite genuinely believe that the nature of the Leave campaign has contributed to an atmosphere of intolerance and demonisation in which an attack on someone active in politics seems not acceptable but expectable. Those small l liberals aren't saying it for tactical advantage in the referendum campaign, they believe it.
You might regard that as absurd. You might regard that as offensive. You might regard the Remain campaign as at least as culpable. I'm not really interested in ascribing blame.
But - and yes, there is another but - I am interested in all of us recognising the real feelings of each other and not just viewing everything through the prism of one referendum campaign. And then wondering why each other have these real feelings.
I have spent the morning from a different perspective reflecting on related points. I am well aware that I am not blameless in my own conduct.
There are other important things apart from the referendum result.
Anonymous hacks ISIS’ Twitter account, makes it as fabulously gay as possible.
http://www.techly.com.au/2016/06/16/anonymous-hacks-isis-twitter-makes-it-as-fabulously-gay-as-humanly-possible/
I had a last minute wobble about that one.
Everything has changed.
Just think of the betting opportunities a general election conducted under AV
I'd hoped my penultimate paragraph had indicated that I didn't regard this as a one way street.
Let's talk more after the referendum about this.
I can't even remember what I voted, or voting at all, in that referendum. I must have voted as I have never missed a national election of any kind. But I have no recollection of doing so.
The only time I can remember going to the polling station with any doubt about what I was going to do was at the last Scottish Parliament election. I was considering voting Labour to try and stop the Nationalists, but ended up voting Lib Dem on the basis that Labour hadn't actually bothered to ask for my vote and by that stage were almost certainly doomed regardless of what I did. Had a serious wobble when I saw an SNP car decked out in Saltires driving the other way as I headed to vote.
In case anyone else missed it who is just logging on there will be no campaigning tomorrow.
Boss Hogg
"I was also rather shocked that her husband Brendan Cox politicised her death within a couple of hours with his statement about "hatred". This from a man who was forced to resign from his highly-paid job at the Save The Children charity last year over multiple allegations of sexual misconduct."
I just remembered I have to give a presentation in Coventry on Thursday morning
And I missed the deadline for the postal vote!
Off topic: A question for PB voting procedure experts.
A friend of mine has nominated me to do his proxy vote, this has arrived today.
On the letter there is a typo in the spelling of my surname.
It is only one letter that is wrong, will that make a difference when I go to cast his vote?
I think it'll have very little effect on the result of the referendum.
I would argue the news cycles benefit leave.
Leave was ahead , Remain needs to campaign to pull it back.
Carney/IMF warnings were all wiped out on Thursday.
They'll be nothing else in the news until Tuesday . Leaving 2 days for Remain to pull it back.
Twitter is not Britain as someone said, the liberal left are in an echo chamber , it has no resonance with the general public. They just see it as a mentally unstable nutter and a poor family without a mother.
A naked attempt to link the murder to brexit supporters by Remain campaigns will be meet with disgust.
The only way it changes imho is if we get a direct link between the killer and Brexit support in the next days. Email/previous communication with Jo Cox.
Or can you get back home in time on Thursday evening?
I've asked Tim Shipman, no response yet. Last week he told me straight away.
Is there a train expert here that could advise the speediest route? ;-)
Catch a train from Coventry during the late afternoon, get the Tube from London Euston to Gants Hill, vote (natch!), then do the reverse journey and get back to the Midlands just in time for the 10pm exit poll! It will cost me a train ticket, but "the country comes first"!
Just realised that sounds a bit like Simon Pegg's plan in "Shaun of the Dead" - sort of