I'm not sure i can tell the difference between negative reactions to the "Breaking Point" poster and the same long term hand wringing liberalism which swept discussion of race, xenophobia and migration under the carpet without once addressing the root underlying causes.
The average WWC voter this poster is aimed at is unlikely to be following twitter or to understand any linkage to Nazi propaganda images. They might see it in their newspaper or get an email from a friend. Or not see it at all and go out to vote leave because, as said, their underlying racism or xenophobia or genuine concerns about migration have never been addressed because they were deliberately kept off the agenda.
Yup. And yet Remain are still attempting to shut it down, rather than address it. I find this whole thing bizarre and wilful blindness. It doesn't make it go away.
By the way, been watching CNN and looking at the international press this morning. The murder of Jo Cox is the biggest story in the world right now, and pretty much the whole international media are linking her death to the referendum.
That's because it's the easiest/laziest thing to do.
Also because the media has an institutionalised left-wing bias - most journalists are left-wing.
It's similar to ascribing every movement in the money markets to Brexit. The fact that Lloyds won a supreme court victory yesterday that will save them a billion pounds has nothing to do with bank share prices going up today.
I think it's a case of the dog that didn't bark. Immigration is a top three or four issues for voters - unlike the EU itself - so it's not surprising they linked the two. What was surprising is that Remain's Big Bertha onslaughts on the economic dangers appear to have had no effect at all.
The effect of the advertising, I guess, is that the lies cut through the exaggerations.
My theory is that the economy is doing too well for those messages to work. By and large, if you want a job, you can get one. It might be low-paid, it might be part time, but the work is there. Some people have even had real-terms pay rises.
It's like the miner's strike - Scargill picked a time when UK coal stocks were an all-time high, which is in large part why he failed.
Equally, the leave message has resonated with people because they look around and see what's happening - either in their own area, or the next town over.
A crude way to cut it is that the remain message has been high level, abstract, global and intellectual. Leave has been local, specific and emotional.
I know she must have been obviously popular in West Yorkshire, and the Parliamentary Labour Party, but I honestly had not heard of Jo Cox prior to yesterday's awful and tragic events.
I don't even recall seeing her being elected televised on Election Night, unless others remember otherwise?
The modern fetish for grief is now in full swing. Campaigns suspended; by election not contested (so no by election); talk of recalling parliament; people professing personal grief for a person they've never met and never even heard of until yesterday afternoon.
The appropriate response to extremists and lunatics who want to disrupt democracy is to have more democracy: there should be a by-election campaign in Batley in the spirit of the democractic values and debate Jo Cox seemingly worked so hard to uphold.
What happened yesterday is very, very sad. The competitive grieving for it is unseemly.
Five day of campaigning gone to mourn a novice backbench MP that most people have never heard of is a ludicrous over reaction.
The campaign resumes tomorrow, does it not? In any case, murder of an MP not matter how novice or if they are on the backbenches or not, warrants a brief pause.
As far as I am aware it has been cancelled until monday at least but as Parliament has been recalled on monday no idea when it will restart
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
I do hope that whichever side wins will treat victory with sobriety, seriousness and not a hint of celebration or champagne.
This is the most serious question any of us will ever have to vote on. Ever, possibly. Winning it (Whoever does so) has serious serious consequences to consider.
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
I do hope that whichever side wins will treat victory with sobriety, seriousness and not a hint of celebration or champagne.
This is the most serious question any of us will ever have to vote on. Ever, possibly. Winning it (Whoever does so) has serious serious consequences to consider.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
Agreed. There is a serious lack of perspective here.
I'm not sure i can tell the difference between negative reactions to the "Breaking Point" poster and the same long term hand wringing liberalism which swept discussion of race, xenophobia and migration under the carpet without once addressing the root underlying causes.
The average WWC voter this poster is aimed at is unlikely to be following twitter or to understand any linkage to Nazi propaganda images. They might see it in their newspaper or get an email from a friend. Or not see it at all and go out to vote leave because, as said, their underlying racism or xenophobia or genuine concerns about migration have never been addressed because they were deliberately kept off the agenda.
Yup. And yet Remain are still attempting to shut it down, rather than address it. I find this whole thing bizarre and wilful blindness. It doesn't make it go away.
When you went out campaigning for Cameron's re election last year , did you also tell those you were canvassing that a year later you would be stabbing him;in the back and peddling xenophobia ?
I know she must have been obviously popular in West Yorkshire, and the Parliamentary Labour Party, but I honestly had not heard of Jo Cox prior to yesterday's awful and tragic events.
I don't even recall seeing her being elected televised on Election Night, unless others remember otherwise?
The modern fetish for grief is now in full swing. Campaigns suspended; by election not contested (so no by election); talk of recalling parliament; people professing personal grief for a person they've never met and never even heard of until yesterday afternoon.
The appropriate response to extremists and lunatics who want to disrupt democracy is to have more democracy: there should be a by-election campaign in Batley in the spirit of the democractic values and debate Jo Cox seemingly worked so hard to uphold.
What happened yesterday is very, very sad. The competitive grieving for it is unseemly.
As John Rentoul has just pointed out, this is the first time that a sitting MP has been murdered since 1812 (excluding victims of Irish republican attacks).
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
I've tried to look for reports confirming it, but couldn't find anything. Last I heard it was suspended until tomorrow (Sat).
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
I'm not sure i can tell the difference between negative reactions to the "Breaking Point" poster and the same long term hand wringing liberalism which swept discussion of race, xenophobia and migration under the carpet without once addressing the root underlying causes.
The average WWC voter this poster is aimed at is unlikely to be following twitter or to understand any linkage to Nazi propaganda images. They might see it in their newspaper or get an email from a friend. Or not see it at all and go out to vote leave because, as said, their underlying racism or xenophobia or genuine concerns about migration have never been addressed because they were deliberately kept off the agenda.
Yup. And yet Remain are still attempting to shut it down, rather than address it. I find this whole thing bizarre and wilful blindness. It doesn't make it go away.
Of course they are trying to shut it down, it's their long term strategy, as you say wilful blindness.
The thing is, its actually getting worse, with things like No Platforming and Safe Spaces proliferating public debate, the attitudes are even further addressed.
We are only 40 years from a time when Love Thy Neighbour and the Black and White Minstrel Show were the most popular programmes on television. It is almost certain that in a lot of families those attitudes passed down with little effort to change them.
The problem is that the Liberal Left do not accept that people can be bad or racist or unethical or hypocritcal or untrustworthy. The basic premise for their entire social attitudes are based on complete and utter fallacies about the human condition.
Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.
My thought was that it was more or less an accident. Furthermore I think they were surprised that they got away with it.
It has the look of someone going way over the top and expecting to be hammered for it.
Because both sides are sharing so many players no one felt it appropriate to criticize which gave them the encouragement to continue.
If Nick Griffin had produced it - or even Farage - they'd have been crucified.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
If the campaigns are stopped until monday-tuesday that must be a joint agreement between them surely. However I would assume if one side stops the other may well be concerned at starting themselves in case the media have a go. Who knows but this is a unique situation
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
I've tried to look for reports confirming it, but couldn't find anything. Last I heard it was suspended until tomorrow (Sat).
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
Couldn't agree more.
But taking stock of what exactly? We should be mourning, certainly, but without knowing the cause(s) and the circumstances we can't really draw any sensible conclusions.
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
If you frame that in the context of the Scottish Referendum, then not campaigning may be quite difficult for Remain. The last week of the Scottish Referendum felt utterly overwhelming for those who supported Independence, the weight of newspaper and television hammering of the No Thanks message was incredibly hard to deal with. It was utterly relentless.
Without that, without all that weight, I am unsure how Remain can pull it out of the bag on swingback.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
I remember when Lee Rigby was killed, his assailants were charged with murder rather than terrorism quite deliberately. It keeps the trial to matters of fact rather than ideology, the what rather than the why.
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
Welcome back, Tim!
I don't think I'm whoever you think I am
Sorry, thought you were the other "tim" who now trades under the Twitter handle GOsborneGenius!
What this does is illustrate just how much the political establishment care only about their own.
Mother and daughter killed in Liverpool - meh
MP killed - everything has to stop.
Its clear where their priorities are. Themselves and themselves alone.
I find this totally irrational. Democracy doesn't win by shutting it down or not standing in elections as a form of *respect*. Put the by-election back a month if necessary. Personally, though it could hurt my side - I don't think we should have a new PM without a new GE.
Many people base their vote on the Party Leader - when that changes, they should be asked anew.
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
I've tried to look for reports confirming it, but couldn't find anything. Last I heard it was suspended until tomorrow (Sat).
As Gaius Julius Caesar probably never said "the die is cast"
Whether the vote is today tomorrow or next Thursday it matters not a hoot. Every nasty thing that has been said on both sides cannot be unsaid. And the death of this poor lady will change nothing and neither will six or seven more days of boorish behaviour.
There probably a very tiny number of folk who have not really made up their minds. And those that have made their minds up won't change them.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
I've tried to look for reports confirming it, but couldn't find anything. Last I heard it was suspended until tomorrow (Sat).
"Labour's regional office in Yorkshire have postponed all referendum campaigning in the region over the weekend."
On that basis, I suggest those of us in Yorkshire at least don't do anything until at least Monday.
Yeah, I'm not sure the positions of the official campaigns are though. it may be that Labour decides themselves not to campaign until Monday, but the main campaigns do.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
Cynically, Leave Leaders aren't doing the statesman thing to commemorate Jo Cox's death. It's Cameron and Corbyn, who is good at tributes because he sounds sincere. They can promote values of togetherness and moderation. The kind of values voters want and have seen so little of during this referendum. And because it's not campaigning there is no need to balance to the other side.
It could do more for them than yet another economics disaster warning.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
I've tried to look for reports confirming it, but couldn't find anything. Last I heard it was suspended until tomorrow (Sat).
Interesting article by Roger. He implies that Leave stumbled on to a potentially winning message more or less by accident. That might well be the case.
My thought was that it was more or less an accident. Furthermore I think they were surprised that they got away with it.
It has the look of someone going way over the top and expecting to be hammered for it.
Because both sides are sharing so many players no one felt it appropriate to criticize which gave them the encouragement to continue.
If Nick Griffin had produced it - or even Farage - they'd have been crucified.
I'd been convinced from the start of this campaign that immigration was the key message that would allow a Leave win. As soon as I saw that PBB for Vote Leave I was convinced the polls would move.
I'm afraid I can't agree with Roger. I have a large extended family in a poor area of Wales; both people and place have been largely forgotten by Britain. That sort of ad was directed at my family - it chimes perfectly with discontent I hear when visiting/they visit, and has taken the political classes who rely on safe-seatism entirely unawares.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Tories & Remain campaign (s.yorks) are resuming 'low profile' activity tomorrow (sat). I've heard informally that local lab haven't been issued any instruction to stop.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
I've tried to look for reports confirming it, but couldn't find anything. Last I heard it was suspended until tomorrow (Sat).
Our tomorrow = the Italians' a week next Thursday.
I thought that was why the Leavers were voting out, wasn't it?
The basic premise for their entire social attitudes are based on complete and utter fallacies about the human condition.
alternatively "based on judeo-christian values"
Not at all. The Judeo-Christian view is that people start out as sinners and have to work to be "good". The Left's view is that everyone is inately good and outside factors make them "bad" for which they have no personal responsibility. They are polar opposites.
Tim Farron's just tweeted that the Lib Dems won't stand in Batley and Spen. Can't imagine there will be any internal backlash on that.
I'm not sure I agree with parties deciding not to contest the seat. To be honest, it strikes me as being somewhat undemocratic that the constituents will, in effect, have an MP imposed on them, if no other parties bother to stand.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
I am a political nerd but I freely admit I had never heard of Jo Cox until yesterday. If she ever had impinged on my consciousness she slipped away again. I find it terrible that 2 young children will have to grow up without their mother but I do not feel personal grief for someone I didn't know.
That is not the point. The point is that she was an elected MP representing her constituents and our democratic process. And she has been murdered doing her job for us. It is not just a tragedy for her family, it is an assault on our way of conducting politics and our democracy. We need to come together at such times and reading between the lines of our PMs comments looking for spin is unworthy. Cameron spoke well and we should all concur with his comments. Corbyn's statement yesterday was also excellent, arguably even better if you want to grade these things.
We will need to move on and we have a big decision to make but not yet.
@NoEasyDay mentions "the die is cast". Linking that with the thread header, this advert, featuring craps*, fumbles the idea of riskiness. It looks oddly inept for professionals:
To date, the referendum has involved lots of events/ narratives which people thought at the time would work for Remain but have actually made no impact on the underlying trend (Obama intervention, etc.)
I have overheard more conversations today about yesterday’s football than this tragedy.
Welcome back, Tim!
I don't think I'm whoever you think I am
you can't be or there'd have been no 'welcome' just 'back'
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
Have the witnesses vanished?
Didn't most of them turn out to be not there after all, but in traffic at the time, and then hear the rumour from the baker, via the butcher's dog, that the assailant had - or maybe had not - shouted 'Britain First' or 'Put Britain First'?
Anyone know if the Iain Duncan Smith / Andrew Neil interview is still going ahead tonight at 8:30pm, and if not will it be rescheduled or cancelled altogether?
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
I've tried to look for reports confirming it, but couldn't find anything. Last I heard it was suspended until tomorrow (Sat).
Yes, but that doesn't mention anything about the campaigns. I don't see why both can't occur at the same time. Obviously it'll be somewhat muted coverage on national TV, but locally I don't think it should affect things.
As Gaius Julius Caesar probably never said "the die is cast"
Whether the vote is today tomorrow or next Thursday it matters not a hoot. Every nasty thing that has been said on both sides cannot be unsaid. And the death of this poor lady will change nothing and neither will six or seven more days of boorish behaviour.
There probably a very tiny number of folk who have not really made up their minds. And those that have made their minds up won't change them.
I think that's probably true. Everyone who is going to vote has made up their minds. This is like the final 10 minutes of a match when one side is 4-0 up.
If they're stopping the campaign until Tuesday, they must be awful.
Dave is desperately trying to look Prime Ministerial after 3 tough weeks.
Are you serious? I'm sitting by a swimming pool in Italy. Hard to tell.
They're stopping the campaign until TUESDAY?? 65m people, deciding their long term future, and that all comes to a halt a week before the vote, because of one ghastly incident
This is nuts. Utterly insane. Yet again REMAIN are overplaying their hand. Or they are, as you say, just desperate. Fucking idiotic. This will lose them the vote. Brits aren't stupid.
Cynically, Leave Leaders aren't doing the statesman thing to commemorate Jo Cox's death. It's Cameron and Corbyn, who is good at tributes because he sounds sincere. They can promote values of togetherness and moderation. The kind of values voters want and have seen so little of during this referendum. And because it's not campaigning there is no need to balance to the other side.
It could do more for them than yet another economics disaster warning.
Plus how could Leavers possibly muscle in? It is the two leaders of the two main parties. Other parties? LibDems? Remain. SNP? Remain. So..............that leaves you-know-who, although that would of course be Leave suicide.
Anyone know if the Iain Duncan Smith / Andrew Neil interview is still going ahead tonight at 8:30pm, and if not will it be rescheduled or cancelled altogether?
It won't be. BBC story:
Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith has pulled out a planned interview with the BBC's Andrew Neil, part of a series of set-piece interviews with leading figures from both sides in the referendum campaign, which had been due to be broadcast on Friday evening. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36553442
Individuals should not be forced to campaign, but the total suspension of campaigning days ahead of a vote which could determine the country's direction for decades or even a century is going too far, I think.
Tim Farron's just tweeted that the Lib Dems won't stand in Batley and Spen. Can't imagine there will be any internal backlash on that.
I'm not sure I agree with parties deciding not to contest the seat. To be honest, it strikes me as being somewhat undemocratic that the constituents will, in effect, have an MP imposed on them, if no other parties bother to stand.
Maybe Britain First will be the only other candidate..
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
Have the witnesses vanished?
Didn't most of them turn out to be not there after all, but in traffic at the time, and then hear the rumour from the baker, via the butcher's dog, that the assailant had - or maybe had not - shouted 'Britain First' or 'Put Britain First'?
Hm, I find it hard to believe they were all actually making it up.
Individuals should not be forced to campaign, but the total suspension of campaigning days ahead of a vote which could determine the country's direction for decades or even a century is going too far, I think.
F1: P2 underway.
P2 only just started on time.
Since the end of P1 they were repairing a load of kerbs that came loose during FP1 - causing the GP2 quali session to be cancelled and moved to after FP2.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
Clearly I don't believe the guy was some paid assassin. Ludicrous
But I can. I'm afraid, imagine some subtle political pressure to charge him under the Terrorism Act (if Crick's tweet is accurate). That seems odd and jarring, but helpful to REMAIN
Hey ho. Weird times.
I think we are in the fog of war period following the event. Remember Walter Wolfgang's ejection - that was some kind of anti-terror law IIRC.
Tim Farron's just tweeted that the Lib Dems won't stand in Batley and Spen. Can't imagine there will be any internal backlash on that.
I'm not sure I agree with parties deciding not to contest the seat. To be honest, it strikes me as being somewhat undemocratic that the constituents will, in effect, have an MP imposed on them, if no other parties bother to stand.
You may well be right - but I feel this is different as the by-election was caused by undemocratic means. I didn't agree with giving David Davis a free ride in his by-election, but I'd imagine a hostile bye-election here is the last thing the constituency needs.
Are we really about to see someone elected to Parliament unopposed?
Wasn't Martin Bell in his white suit one? Or near as like?
Actually complete opposite. There was one official "party" candidate, the Tory Neil Hamilton, and then all these guys:
Independent Martin Bell 29,354 60.2% Conservative Mostyn Neil Hamilton 18,277 37.5% Independent Conservative Sam Hill 295 0.6% Independent Conservative Simon Lowther Kinsey 184 0.4% Miss Moneypenny's Glamorous One Party Burnel Graig Penhaul 128 0.3% Albion Party John Richard Muir 126 0.3% Natural Law Michael Paul Kennedy 123 0.3% Lord Byro versus the Scallywag Tories David Laurence Bishop 116 0.2% Independent Conservative Ralph Nicholas 113 0.2% Juice Party Julian Matthew Price 73 0.1%
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
Have the witnesses vanished?
Didn't most of them turn out to be not there after all, but in traffic at the time, and then hear the rumour from the baker, via the butcher's dog, that the assailant had - or maybe had not - shouted 'Britain First' or 'Put Britain First'?
Hm, I find it hard to believe they were all actually making it up.
The media are finding it hard to locate any actual eye witnesses, rather than examples of mere hearsay, But I could be wrong.
There were two that were mentioned in reports on the day itself. Let's hope they are spending the time reporting what they saw to the police rather than the media!
I know the Swedes rejected adopting the Euro as a currency in 2003 quite over overwhelmingly in the end, but did the death of Anna Lindh in similar circumstances to what we have seen with Jo Cox make the final result closer than it should have been?
Terrible as it is for her family and friends, our MPs are going over the top.
Ordinary citizens are brutally murdered every day under this lots watch. But you dont get normal civil life suspended for several days - even for public servants like policemen and soldiers putting themselves in harms way for the common good.
I fear this just reinforces the out of touch 'one rule for them one rule for us' perception that is becoming ever more widespread
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
Have the witnesses vanished?
Didn't most of them turn out to be not there after all, but in traffic at the time, and then hear the rumour from the baker, via the butcher's dog, that the assailant had - or maybe had not - shouted 'Britain First' or 'Put Britain First'?
Hm, I find it hard to believe they were all actually making it up.
The media are finding it hard to locate any actual eye witnesses, rather than examples of mere hearsay, But I could be wrong.
It all seemed to start with a tweet from somebody using Mary Crabapple or similar - that got picked up by M Eagles and then that hit Sky et al. I gather Ms Crabapple is a close friend of Laurie Penny. Both those tweets have been deleted.
Jeremy Vine asked on Twitter where it all came from. No one seems to know.
Tim Farron's just tweeted that the Lib Dems won't stand in Batley and Spen. Can't imagine there will be any internal backlash on that.
Well, maybe, maybe not.
Once again I find myself in complete disagreement with my Party leader and it's another small step on the road out of the Lib Dems for me.
Yes, we must grieve, remember and do whatever is possible to ensure MPs can go about their lawful business in peace but (and for me this is a biggie..)
Life goes on - the political process wasn't suspended for Ian Gow or Michael Colvin or any other MP who has tragically passed away. I appreciate the sheer senseless brutality of Jo Cox's murder and of course we must ensure that as far as possible MPs are able to go about their constituency business in peace and safety.
However, and hard though this may sound, the show must go on. The political process cannot be seen to be subverted or compromised (whether well-meaning or not). We live in a democratic society and ultimately that democracy functions through debate and elections.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
Have the witnesses vanished?
Didn't most of them turn out to be not there after all, but in traffic at the time, and then hear the rumour from the baker, via the butcher's dog, that the assailant had - or maybe had not - shouted 'Britain First' or 'Put Britain First'?
Hm, I find it hard to believe they were all actually making it up.
The media are finding it hard to locate any actual eye witnesses, rather than examples of mere hearsay, But I could be wrong.
It all seemed to start with a tweet from somebody using Mary Crabapple or similar - that got picked up by M Eagles and then that hit Sky et al. I gather Ms Crabapple is a close friend of Laurie Penny. Both those tweets have been deleted.
Jeremy Vine asked on Twitter where it all came from. No one seems to know.
The Britain First quote? That was reported via an eyewitness, not just based on those tweets.
@glw I don't think campaigning should be brought to a halt. But some of the huffing and pshawing about David Cameron's words to the nation on the subject are comprehensively missing the point that something awful has happened and we need humbly and carefully to be taking stock.
We should be doing that when we know what happened currently we don't, bar the fact of the murder.
Michael Crick is saying Mair will be charged under the Terrorism Act. That's significant
I don't understand, it's murder.
It's certainly great premise for a political thriller. Man commits weird but pivotal murder on verge of nation-changing referendum. Several "eye-witnesses" claim he said "Britain first" as he did the murdering.
Then these witnesses dematerialise.
After this the referendum campaign is entirely suspended for several crucial days, just as one side appears to have enormous momentum.
Then the murderer is mysteriously charged with Terrorism, on the grounds that this will help the government
I'm joking. I think. But... Who the F knows. The government is clearly desperate. How far would they go to get a win? I genuinely don't know any more. I can imagine tacit pressure on the CPS.
Clearly I don't believe the guy was some paid assassin. Ludicrous
But I can. I'm afraid, imagine some subtle political pressure to charge him under the Terrorism Act (if Crick's tweet is accurate). That seems odd and jarring, but helpful to REMAIN
Hey ho. Weird times.
If he was acting alone, I suspect he would be charged for murder - it seems like an open and shut case. The purpose of the Terrorism Acts as far as I can tell from the police point of view is that it makes their job easier. They can detain people longer, do wider ranging searches etc. This suggests to me the police believe the suspect wasn't acting alone.
For the avoidance of doubt I am talking about the involvement of some shadowy far right group and not the Leave campaign or UKIP.
Terrible as it is for her family and friends, our MPs are going over the top.
Ordinary citizens are brutally murdered every day under this lots watch. But you dont get normal civil life suspended for several days - even for public servants like policemen and soldiers putting themselves in harms way for the common good.
I fear this just reinforces the out of touch 'one rule for them one rule for us' perception that is becoming ever more widespread
I certainly feel this risks becoming seen as politicians being self-reverential.
And this campaign is not about them: it's about the British people having an important vote on their future.
IAAF isn't lifting ban on Russian athletes - oh dear.
If they will miss the Olympics that's a huge story. Big cojones from an under-pressure Seb Coe.
I was only half listening - but it sounded like the IAAF think their whole drug testing regime is broken and can't be trusted. Decision may not even go to a vote.
Comments
It's like the miner's strike - Scargill picked a time when UK coal stocks were an all-time high, which is in large part why he failed.
Equally, the leave message has resonated with people because they look around and see what's happening - either in their own area, or the next town over.
A crude way to cut it is that the remain message has been high level, abstract, global and intellectual. Leave has been local, specific and emotional.
This is the most serious question any of us will ever have to vote on. Ever, possibly.
Winning it (Whoever does so) has serious serious consequences to consider.
Competitive grieving? FFS, get a grip.
Once in 204 years they strike? We're not doing so bad then...
The thing is, its actually getting worse, with things like No Platforming and Safe Spaces proliferating public debate, the attitudes are even further addressed.
We are only 40 years from a time when Love Thy Neighbour and the Black and White Minstrel Show were the most popular programmes on television. It is almost certain that in a lot of families those attitudes passed down with little effort to change them.
The problem is that the Liberal Left do not accept that people can be bad or racist or unethical or hypocritcal or untrustworthy. The basic premise for their entire social attitudes are based on complete and utter fallacies about the human condition.
My thought was that it was more or less an accident. Furthermore I think they were surprised that they got away with it.
It has the look of someone going way over the top and expecting to be hammered for it.
Because both sides are sharing so many players no one felt it appropriate to criticize which gave them the encouragement to continue.
If Nick Griffin had produced it - or even Farage - they'd have been crucified.
Mother and daughter killed in Liverpool - meh
MP killed - everything has to stop.
Its clear where their priorities are. Themselves and themselves alone.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36553442
Welcome to PB in any case!
Without that, without all that weight, I am unsure how Remain can pull it out of the bag on swingback.
The legend returns.
Many people base their vote on the Party Leader - when that changes, they should be asked anew.
"Labour's regional office in Yorkshire have postponed all referendum campaigning in the region over the weekend."
On that basis, I suggest those of us in Yorkshire at least don't do anything until at least Monday.
Whether the vote is today tomorrow or next Thursday it matters not a hoot. Every nasty thing that has been said on both sides cannot be unsaid. And the death of this poor lady will change nothing and neither will six or seven more days of boorish behaviour.
There probably a very tiny number of folk who have not really made up their minds. And those that have made their minds up won't change them.
It could do more for them than yet another economics disaster warning.
Not sure if that's just for West Yorkshire, which would make sense.
Telegraph blog saying Parliament will be recalled on Monday.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-labour-mps-security-was-being-increased-after-thre/
I'm afraid I can't agree with Roger. I have a large extended family in a poor area of Wales; both people and place have been largely forgotten by Britain. That sort of ad was directed at my family - it chimes perfectly with discontent I hear when visiting/they visit, and has taken the political classes who rely on safe-seatism entirely unawares.
Tories & Remain campaign (s.yorks) are resuming 'low profile' activity tomorrow (sat). I've heard informally that local lab haven't been issued any instruction to stop.
I thought that was why the Leavers were voting out, wasn't it?
I'm not sure I agree with parties deciding not to contest the seat. To be honest, it strikes me as being somewhat undemocratic that the constituents will, in effect, have an MP imposed on them, if no other parties bother to stand.
But did you see @Luckyguy1983's post this morning?
That is not the point. The point is that she was an elected MP representing her constituents and our democratic process. And she has been murdered doing her job for us. It is not just a tragedy for her family, it is an assault on our way of conducting politics and our democracy. We need to come together at such times and reading between the lines of our PMs comments looking for spin is unworthy. Cameron spoke well and we should all concur with his comments. Corbyn's statement yesterday was also excellent, arguably even better if you want to grade these things.
We will need to move on and we have a big decision to make but not yet.
http://cached.imagescaler.hbpl.co.uk/resize/scaleWidth/815/offlinehbpl.hbpl.co.uk/news/OMC/EU-Poster-20160610125452749.gif
*The reader can choose what this refers to.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3646601/Don-t-link-Jo-Cox-s-brutal-killing-bitter-battle-membership-EU-referendum-Labour-MP-says.html
Leave campaigner Iain Duncan Smith has pulled out a planned interview with the BBC's Andrew Neil, part of a series of set-piece interviews with leading figures from both sides in the referendum campaign, which had been due to be broadcast on Friday evening.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36553442
I still think Remain will win.
Individuals should not be forced to campaign, but the total suspension of campaigning days ahead of a vote which could determine the country's direction for decades or even a century is going too far, I think.
F1: P2 underway.
However, there are apparently lots of Russian women who who like to chat to me...
Since the end of P1 they were repairing a load of kerbs that came loose during FP1 - causing the GP2 quali session to be cancelled and moved to after FP2.
I've a Nigerian Prince who'd like me to help him.
On the by-election, others not contesting it, if that's happening, is entirely wrong. The whole point of democracy is that people get a choice.
Independent Martin Bell 29,354 60.2%
Conservative Mostyn Neil Hamilton 18,277 37.5%
Independent Conservative Sam Hill 295 0.6%
Independent Conservative Simon Lowther Kinsey 184 0.4%
Miss Moneypenny's Glamorous One Party Burnel Graig Penhaul 128 0.3%
Albion Party John Richard Muir 126 0.3%
Natural Law Michael Paul Kennedy 123 0.3%
Lord Byro versus the Scallywag Tories David Laurence Bishop 116 0.2%
Independent Conservative Ralph Nicholas 113 0.2%
Juice Party Julian Matthew Price 73 0.1%
Tatton parliamentary constituency
Did it help the Yes side, she was pro-EU.
Ordinary citizens are brutally murdered every day under this lots watch. But you dont get normal civil life suspended for several days - even for public servants like policemen and soldiers putting themselves in harms way for the common good.
I fear this just reinforces the out of touch 'one rule for them one rule for us' perception that is becoming ever more widespread
Jeremy Vine asked on Twitter where it all came from. No one seems to know.
Sky say their IAAF sources say they WILL NOT lift their ban on Russia for the Olympics.
Once again I find myself in complete disagreement with my Party leader and it's another small step on the road out of the Lib Dems for me.
Yes, we must grieve, remember and do whatever is possible to ensure MPs can go about their lawful business in peace but (and for me this is a biggie..)
Life goes on - the political process wasn't suspended for Ian Gow or Michael Colvin or any other MP who has tragically passed away. I appreciate the sheer senseless brutality of Jo Cox's murder and of course we must ensure that as far as possible MPs are able to go about their constituency business in peace and safety.
However, and hard though this may sound, the show must go on. The political process cannot be seen to be subverted or compromised (whether well-meaning or not). We live in a democratic society and ultimately that democracy functions through debate and elections.
One of my abiding political memories was seeing her towering transvestite figure behind the odious Neil Hamilton at the count.
It seemed such an utterly appropriate way to signal the end of the John Major Sleaze Government.
For the avoidance of doubt I am talking about the involvement of some shadowy far right group and not the Leave campaign or UKIP.
And this campaign is not about them: it's about the British people having an important vote on their future.