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  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,173
    ydoethur said:



    Apologies if this point has been said already.

    Well, he’s not really taking part in it, is he? He’s more the cause of it.
    I take your point, but the rules seem pretty clear.

    If I were cynical I might see this as another example as one rule for him... Mr Joe Public, caught up in a similar situation re breaking quarantine or lockdown, wouldn’t be able to take to the airwaves to justify their actions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 56,389

    So, do we think:

    a) Mawkish nonsense, using wife and child as a shield
    b) Epic rant about the biased media
    c) Bit of Both

    As resignation is highly unlikely.

    C. No hesitation.

    Plus some whinging about how wonderful he is and we don’t deserve him.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cyclefree said:

    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
    Let's hope this thing about following your instincts making everything legal applies to all areas of the law ...
    Well according to the A-G it has.

    Look I don’t think that one should take a risky course of action just because some other twit has. But when Prime Ministers and Attorneys-General go round undermining the law it is not surprising that some people will interpret laws, rules, guidance, whatever, in ways which suit them best.

    And the government has lost the ability to criticise them for it.
    Has the law been undermined?

    And isn't everyone using their common sense what you wanted?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    Footfalls echo in the memory
    Down the passage which we did not take
    Towards the door we never opened
    Into the rose-garden.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,166
    This is probably going to be even more excruciating than both Boris yesterday and that awful press conference Catherine Calderwood did with Nicola Sturgeon just before she got the push.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 37,899
    I see the usual halfwitted Constitutional experts on here were pontificating about Scottish referendums earlier, rubbishing the very valid and sensible post by Dougseal. It beggars belief that they could raise a brain between them. We will see after 2021 election what really happens.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,013
    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    The implication in your post is clearly that your wife would not have made the decision she has without the DC fracas. That's twerpish.
    I can tell you absolutely and categorically my wife would not have booked her tickets today without the Govt in short condoning people who can breach them....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    I think there's a problem separating twerpishness from dishonesty.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    ydoethur said:

    So, do we think:

    a) Mawkish nonsense, using wife and child as a shield
    b) Epic rant about the biased media
    c) Bit of Both

    As resignation is highly unlikely.

    C. No hesitation.

    Plus some whinging about how wonderful he is and we don’t deserve him.
    Will he not try to do what everyone's saying he should have done in the first place?

    He only wanted what was best for his child (extracts onion) and very sorry if he's offended anyone?
  • Cummings to announce a Coalition Government with Johnson as Deputy PM
  • Of course people have responsibility for their terrible and dangerous decisions - and "Dom did it" is no credible justification. But it's one that now exists - people are saying it - moreso each day this saga continues.

    There's some notion about the of idea of justice of course - but no one thinks he should be locked away - he has a job to do - ideally in the public interest - how can he do it? How can it have been a good use of three days of Government time to defend him? Is the response driven by the need to protect public health, or keep Dom in his job?

    What is this unique insight he offers that outweighs the public harm?

    That harm is the responsibility of individuals, sure, but the consequences of it are shared by all of us - and that harm is real - even if it's the feasibility of another lockdown if - God forbid - we really needed one.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,342
    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    The implication in your post is clearly that your wife would not have made the decision she has without the DC fracas. That's twerpish.
    I can tell you absolutely and categorically my wife would not have booked her tickets today without the Govt in short condoning people who can breach them....
    "Members of a government behavioural science advisory group have expressed concern that the revelations that Dominic Cummings appears to have broken the UK’s coronavirus restrictions and the government’s subsequent handling of the crisis has undermined the government’s authority and could encourage people to break the rules themselves."
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2244461-behavioural-science-advisers-express-concern-over-cummings-crisis/
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,166
    edited May 2020

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Less than 12 "erms" would suffice frankly, let alone words.

    Having said that I did enjoy his exasperated sigh as he signed off yesterday.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,390

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Considering Boris had already told people they should use their own common sense ...

    ... I find it hilarious now to see critics suggesting the green light has been given to use your common sense.

    Why wasn't Boris literally saying to use your common sense not green light enough? Why did it need this to green light it?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,801
    Sandpit said:

    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    Right now, there's a lot of planes parked up, and a lot of pilots not flying. There's a significant risk of more accidents due to rusty pilots and rusty planes, as things start to get back to something approaching normal.

    I seem to recall that Airbus planes have a waring system if they detect a landing is happening with "wrong" settings - flaps, undercarriage etc. Is this correct?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,522

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Whatever Dom is I really don't think you can say he is like a normal member of the public.
    Your implicit complaint was that he is being treated better than a normal member of the public. I was just pointing out that a substantial chunk of the public has received no censure whatsoever for their own individual violations of lockdown, let alone become the subject of a nationwide witch hunt...
    Higher standards
    Ah, of course. Higher standards than the public, higher standards than the press, higher standards than government ministers (Jenrick), higher standards than Labour MPs (Kinnock and Ali), higher than the sun.

    I never knew people thought quite so highly of good old Dom.
    As you never cease to remind us, Kinnock and Ali are not in government. All those in government can and should be held to a higher standard.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/228884/8519.pdf
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,576
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    It would need to be a sob story worthy of Britain's got talent.
  • Is Dominic seriously going to find a way to weasel out of this
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,274
    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    Here are some questions.

    1. Did you go to the Glaxo Smith Kline plant in Barnard’s Castle at any point in April on government business?
    2. Did any other member of the SAGE Committee attend the meeting(s) with you or on their own?
    3. Were any government ministers present at such meetings - either physically or remotely?
    4. Were the PM, the Health Secretary or Cobra members briefed on such meetings?
    5. What was discussed at such meetings?
    6. Were any agreements entered into as a result of or following such meetings?
    7. What were those agreements?
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    edited May 2020
    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    Also in the spirit of the new found co-operation in the press could the journalists please decide between them who is going to ask what question? Rather than getting the same 3 questions asked in about 10 different ways.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Is Dominic seriously going to find a way to weasel out of this

    You can sense the disappointment of people that they might not get their political opponent.

    There's a word for that and it's witch-hunt.

    If Cummings had a reasonable excuse for what he did he acted lawfully as would anyone, literally anyone, who did the same thing with a reasonable excuse. That's not weasel behaviour.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
    I'd like to see how many employers will be policing their staff when they return from trips abroad...

    I really don't want my wife to go (and my wife doesn't want to go)...and have used your argument...but her mum is desperate to see her...my father-in-law died a couple of years ago, and she is by herself....


    But Cummings actions....have released my wife from the argument that she has to quarantine coming back- which is why she has booked this morning....
    I haven't heard about DC's actions which your last para refers to. Can you enlighten me please. I really don't care why your wife is doing as she is, but if you insist on justifying it on DC's actions then I will label that twerpish.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,390

    Sandpit said:

    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    Right now, there's a lot of planes parked up, and a lot of pilots not flying. There's a significant risk of more accidents due to rusty pilots and rusty planes, as things start to get back to something approaching normal.

    I seem to recall that Airbus planes have a waring system if they detect a landing is happening with "wrong" settings - flaps, undercarriage etc. Is this correct?
    Yes, correct. Several different systems in fact, which is why it's such a weird accident.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,674
    Has @bbclaurak tweeted how convincing Dominic was yet or is it in draft
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,424
    edited May 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    It would need to be a sob story worthy of Britain's got talent.
    In normal times a sob story might work, but we are currently in a situation where sob stories are 40,000 a penny, and some peoples can't really be "topped".
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,843
    Mr. Scott, the Bulgars were surprised by the aftermath of the Battle of Kleidion.

    Surprises can be nasty as well as nice...

    I have a plan to resolve this, incidentally.

    It involves a space cannon, a GMB presenter, a government special advisor, and ticket/broadcasting sales through the roof. Something for everyone.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    Here are some questions.

    1. Did you go to the Glaxo Smith Kline plant in Barnard’s Castle at any point in April on government business?
    Did your wife and child go along for the ride?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Saltire said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    Also in the spirit of the new found co-operation in the press could the journalists please decide between them who is going to ask what question? Rather than getting the same 3 questions asked in about 10 different ways.
    We would be lucky to get 3 questions. With the PMs Press Conference yesterday the whole national media asked the same question. The only exception besides the public questions was the local paper which asked a question on PPE.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,287

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Considering Boris had already told people they should use their own common sense ...

    ... I find it hilarious now to see critics suggesting the green light has been given to use your common sense.

    Why wasn't Boris literally saying to use your common sense not green light enough? Why did it need this to green light it?
    I wonder how many of the people complaining that they wanted specific guidelines and didn't want to think for themselves are now saying people should do what they want because of something someone else did over a month ago.

    There seems to be people who don't want to think for themselves and don't want to take any responsibility for their actions but instead want someone to blame if doing what they want to do goes wrong.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If he’s taking questions it sounds as though he’s not planning on resigning.
    Can not see him resigning , especially after he gave a full account to Johnson yesterday.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,843
    edited May 2020
    Mr. Thompson, I have some sympathy with that view but the handling of this, by the PM especially, is catastrophically bad.

    Edited extra bit: Piers Gaveston and Hugh Despenser spring to mind.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,390
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If he’s taking questions it sounds as though he’s not planning on resigning.
    Can not see him resigning , especially after he gave a full account to Johnson yesterday.
    The only way he goes now, is if the PM is presented with evidence that DC lied to him.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,013

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
    I'd like to see how many employers will be policing their staff when they return from trips abroad...

    I really don't want my wife to go (and my wife doesn't want to go)...and have used your argument...but her mum is desperate to see her...my father-in-law died a couple of years ago, and she is by herself....


    But Cummings actions....have released my wife from the argument that she has to quarantine coming back- which is why she has booked this morning....
    My employer will be.

    Not out of concern about government guidelines but because we don't want to risk multiple infections among employees.

    Albeit a theoretical stance at present as it hasn't yet applied to anyone.
    No...if there was no quarantine rule on coming back, your employer would be fine if you stuck to the self isolating on symptoms rule....

    Would your employer care if you went for a bike ride, or went shopping, or went for a run at the weekend?

    The quarantine rule is a big ask for people without symptoms....
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,121
    edited May 2020
    What a delight to see David Walker on the cover!

    An individual of quality who does immense work behind various scenes without ever talking publicly about most of it.

    When he was little-bishopped he felt it necessary to withdraw from an internet group for church ministers and laity I was involved in for 15 years out of concern that having a Bishop in the group might inhibit free conversation. Subsequently he was big-bishopped (in Maggie terminology).

    The organisation involved was one of the very few I have ever known deliberately dissolve itself because it felt it had fulfilled its purpose.

    Cheers Mike.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,674

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    It would need to be a sob story worthy of Britain's got talent.
    In normal times a sob story might work, but we are currently in a situation where sob stories are 40,000 a penny, and some peoples can't really be "topped".
    Nailed on the head.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,694
    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
    I'd like to see how many employers will be policing their staff when they return from trips abroad...

    I really don't want my wife to go (and my wife doesn't want to go)...and have used your argument...but her mum is desperate to see her...my father-in-law died a couple of years ago, and she is by herself....


    But Cummings actions....have released my wife from the argument that she has to quarantine coming back- which is why she has booked this morning....
    I haven't heard about DC's actions which your last para refers to. Can you enlighten me please. I really don't care why your wife is doing as she is, but if you insist on justifying it on DC's actions then I will label that twerpish.
    Not sure what tyson`s issue is. Of course his wife should go. I visited my dad 200 miles away last week, the day after the rule change. Going next week too.

    Strickly speaking, she should meet her mother in a park or something, but I went for my dad`s large garden. Only me and him present. Over 2m apart and I never entered his bungalow. Drove back the same day. Didn`t even need to refuel, my car does over 400 m on one tank, like many these days.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Considering Boris had already told people they should use their own common sense ...

    ... I find it hilarious now to see critics suggesting the green light has been given to use your common sense.

    Why wasn't Boris literally saying to use your common sense not green light enough? Why did it need this to green light it?
    I wonder how many of the people complaining that they wanted specific guidelines and didn't want to think for themselves are now saying people should do what they want because of something someone else did over a month ago.

    There seems to be people who don't want to think for themselves and don't want to take any responsibility for their actions but instead want someone to blame if doing what they want to do goes wrong.
    Very well said.

    I think the left right divide can sometimes (certainly not always) be summed up as simply how willing you are to accept personal responsibility for your decision making.

    One reason I struggle to get exercised by this whole saga if it was for legitimate childcare reasons is literally anyone could make decisions for themselves if they had special childcare requirements.

    The day we live in a world where it's set rules for everyone with no thinking for yourself is a very bad one.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    Do we have any footage of his appearances in front of select comittees. Doesn't he come across as a tetchy know it all blow hard?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 72,844
    Everyone got their friendly journalist bullshit bingo card ready ?

    "Most unexpected of explanations"
    "The particular challenges of autism"
    "Perhaps just enough to save his job"
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    That said, the lobby will 100% totally mess this up an guarantee my winnings.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    Is Dominic seriously going to find a way to weasel out of this

    You can sense the disappointment of people that they might not get their political opponent.

    There's a word for that and it's witch-hunt.

    If Cummings had a reasonable excuse for what he did he acted lawfully as would anyone, literally anyone, who did the same thing with a reasonable excuse. That's not weasel behaviour.
    If him being already ill, and his wife having covid while they struggled to look after their autistic kid under the spotlight, during lockdown, isn't enough for his haters to buckle, I doubt anything is.

    I say "if" because I don't know that those three things are 100% true, but I don't think it would matter if they were.

    It would mean his detractors would have to act the same way towards any other couple in that situation to be consistent... but they aren't consistent as we often see
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,931
    Scott_xP said:
    Is Stella so blinded by loyalty as not to see it is a moral social code that has been breached. It no longer matters if he broke one of his self drafted laws.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    Here are some questions.

    1. Did you go to the Glaxo Smith Kline plant in Barnard’s Castle at any point in April on government business?
    2. Did any other member of the SAGE Committee attend the meeting(s) with you or on their own?
    3. Were any government ministers present at such meetings - either physically or remotely?
    4. Were the PM, the Health Secretary or Cobra members briefed on such meetings?
    5. What was discussed at such meetings?
    6. Were any agreements entered into as a result of or following such meetings?
    7. What were those agreements?
    What a curiously interesting bunch of questions!
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,013
    Stocky said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
    I'd like to see how many employers will be policing their staff when they return from trips abroad...

    I really don't want my wife to go (and my wife doesn't want to go)...and have used your argument...but her mum is desperate to see her...my father-in-law died a couple of years ago, and she is by herself....


    But Cummings actions....have released my wife from the argument that she has to quarantine coming back- which is why she has booked this morning....
    I haven't heard about DC's actions which your last para refers to. Can you enlighten me please. I really don't care why your wife is doing as she is, but if you insist on justifying it on DC's actions then I will label that twerpish.
    Not sure what tyson`s issue is. Of course his wife should go. I visited my dad 200 miles away last week, the day after the rule change. Going next week too.

    Strickly speaking, she should meet her mother in a park or something, but I went for my dad`s large garden. Only me and him present. Over 2m apart and I never entered his bungalow. Drove back the same day. Didn`t even need to refuel, my car does over 400 m on one tank, like many these days.
    My wife's mother is in Italy..and when she comes back has to stay in a flat for 2 weeks..no going out, no walking the dog etc.....at the beginning of July....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,424
    Big Dom preparing for the press conference,


  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,362
    edited May 2020
    https://twitter.com/ClarkeMicah/status/1264891600821460993

    "What’s truly surprising is just how recent the theory behind lockdown and forced distancing actually is. So far as anyone can tell, the intellectual machinery that made this mess was invented 14 years ago, and not by epidemiologists but by computer-simulation modelers. It was adopted not by experienced doctors – they warned ferociously against it – but by politicians."
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    How convenient

    It's also utter bollocks. "Quietly admitted" ..... this has been published and tweeted every day by the government since early April.

    It's also only some patients, as you can see by the daily pillar breakdown figures.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Mr. Thompson, I have some sympathy with that view but the handling of this, by the PM especially, is catastrophically bad.

    Edited extra bit: Piers Gaveston and Hugh Despenser spring to mind.

    Johnson screwed up the politics by not kicking this into the long grass with an independent investigation.

    An independent investigation could have cleared Dom and the usual suspects would be pissed off they hadn't got their man but that'd be it.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,322
    Andrew said:


    How convenient

    It's also utter bollocks. "Quietly admitted" ..... this has been published and tweeted every day by the government since early April.

    It's also only some patients, as you can see by the daily pillar breakdown figures.

    Literally tweeted out by the government every day.

    I understand there are limitations to each type of test, which is why we run two. It's not like the gov't is conducting unnecessary tests to inflate the figures.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,684
    Interestingly GSK employees at Barnard Castle have been reminded not to talk to the press and to direct any questions to the press officer.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Is Dominic seriously going to find a way to weasel out of this

    You can sense the disappointment of people that they might not get their political opponent.

    There's a word for that and it's witch-hunt.

    If Cummings had a reasonable excuse for what he did he acted lawfully as would anyone, literally anyone, who did the same thing with a reasonable excuse. That's not weasel behaviour.
    If you or someone you live with has symptoms of coronavirus:

    do not leave your home for any reason
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Big Dom preparing for the press conference,


    If he's Gekko then Johnson is Catboy. Who's Owlette?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,694

    Scott_xP said:
    Is Stella so blinded by loyalty as not to see it is a moral social code that has been breached. It no longer matters if he broke one of his self drafted laws.
    Let`s not change the argument. Posts here were violently accusing him of breaking lockdown rules.

    Let`s see if he did or didn`t. It he didn`t let`s see some retractions from media outlets. If he did, he must go.
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    It is stories like this that will make the media move on from Cummings. There is so much incompetence and shady use of facts and numbers by this government that it is going to find itself constantly on the defensive for weeks to come.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,931
    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    Here are some questions.

    1. Did you go to the Glaxo Smith Kline plant in Barnard’s Castle at any point in April on government business?
    2. Did any other member of the SAGE Committee attend the meeting(s) with you or on their own?
    3. Were any government ministers present at such meetings - either physically or remotely?
    4. Were the PM, the Health Secretary or Cobra members briefed on such meetings?
    5. What was discussed at such meetings?
    6. Were any agreements entered into as a result of or following such meetings?
    7. What were those agreements?
    Aha, so he was really on secret government business to save the nation!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,274
    edited May 2020

    Is Dominic seriously going to find a way to weasel out of this

    You can sense the disappointment of people that they might not get their political opponent.

    There's a word for that and it's witch-hunt.

    If Cummings had a reasonable excuse for what he did he acted lawfully as would anyone, literally anyone, who did the same thing with a reasonable excuse. That's not weasel behaviour.
    You are, with the greatest of respect, completely missing the point.

    First - timing. Odd that he should be explaining himself after the PM absolved him yesterday. Whatever else it does it shows that the PM failed in his job yesterday. It undermines the PM, whatever the outcome.

    Second - the tests under the law are whether the excuse was “reasonable” and the journey “necessary”. These are objective tests determined by a court, if it comes to that, not matters which you decide for yourself. You can explain why you did what you did but you are not the person who determines whether you acted within the law. Nor the PM.

    Third - the guidelines. He may have acted lawfully but completely contrary to the guidelines. That is not good enough when the government’s whole message has been about complying with the guidelines.

    Fourth - sob stories. Everyone has sob stories. If he tries to garner sympathy now it will look manipulative rather than genuine. The time to do that was when the story broke coupled with an apology. Not now as part of some sort of Top Trumps Sob Story competition.

    Fifth - the optics. Fair play, not taking the piss, not acting as if the rules don’t apply to you - that is what people expect and why his behaviour and the reaction to being questioned on it have undermined and annoyed people. People feel as if they have been taken for fools. That is what needs to be addressed now not legal technicalities.

    Does Cummings have the emotional intelligence to understand that and deal with it properly?
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
    The motivation you describe has nothing to do with DC other than the implication that DC's "justification" served to clarify the existing message. I don't think that was Tyson's point.
    No Cyclefree is right on this one...my wife really does believe she is acting with integrity booking this visit, and not having to apply the quarantine rules when she returns because of what Cummings has done....which is basically if you believe your actions are helping someone who is vulnerable (my mother in law)...then it's justifiable not to stick to the rules....


    I think you should read that back. You're clearly contradicting yourself.

    "if you believe your actions are helping someone who is vulnerable (my mother in law)...then it's justifiable not to stick to the rules"

    I personally wouldn't wouldn't argue with that position taken by a responsible person, and it sounds quite like what DC is saying. So it comes down to DC's actions having clarified what is permissible - hurrah for DC?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,101
    What I really want Dom to say is "I am the man who makes the bhaji go away..."
  • tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Considering Boris had already told people they should use their own common sense ...

    ... I find it hilarious now to see critics suggesting the green light has been given to use your common sense.

    Why wasn't Boris literally saying to use your common sense not green light enough? Why did it need this to green light it?
    I wonder how many of the people complaining that they wanted specific guidelines and didn't want to think for themselves are now saying people should do what they want because of something someone else did over a month ago.

    There seems to be people who don't want to think for themselves and don't want to take any responsibility for their actions but instead want someone to blame if doing what they want to do goes wrong.
    Very well said.

    I think the left right divide can sometimes (certainly not always) be summed up as simply how willing you are to accept personal responsibility for your decision making.

    One reason I struggle to get exercised by this whole saga if it was for legitimate childcare reasons is literally anyone could make decisions for themselves if they had special childcare requirements.

    The day we live in a world where it's set rules for everyone with no thinking for yourself is a very bad one.
    The question is does responsibility for actions end with you and your children - or are their wider responsibilities you have to others - that would preclude driving a corona hotbox cross country.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    isam said:

    Is Dominic seriously going to find a way to weasel out of this

    You can sense the disappointment of people that they might not get their political opponent.

    There's a word for that and it's witch-hunt.

    If Cummings had a reasonable excuse for what he did he acted lawfully as would anyone, literally anyone, who did the same thing with a reasonable excuse. That's not weasel behaviour.
    If him being already ill, and his wife having covid while they struggled to look after their autistic kid under the spotlight, during lockdown, isn't enough for his haters to buckle, I doubt anything is.

    I say "if" because I don't know that those three things are 100% true, but I don't think it would matter if they were.

    It would mean his detractors would have to act the same way towards any other couple in that situation to be consistent... but they aren't consistent as we often see
    How many couples are the commissioning editor of the Spectator and the chief advisor to the government - with family living near by?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,694
    tyson said:

    Stocky said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
    I'd like to see how many employers will be policing their staff when they return from trips abroad...

    I really don't want my wife to go (and my wife doesn't want to go)...and have used your argument...but her mum is desperate to see her...my father-in-law died a couple of years ago, and she is by herself....


    But Cummings actions....have released my wife from the argument that she has to quarantine coming back- which is why she has booked this morning....
    I haven't heard about DC's actions which your last para refers to. Can you enlighten me please. I really don't care why your wife is doing as she is, but if you insist on justifying it on DC's actions then I will label that twerpish.
    Not sure what tyson`s issue is. Of course his wife should go. I visited my dad 200 miles away last week, the day after the rule change. Going next week too.

    Strickly speaking, she should meet her mother in a park or something, but I went for my dad`s large garden. Only me and him present. Over 2m apart and I never entered his bungalow. Drove back the same day. Didn`t even need to refuel, my car does over 400 m on one tank, like many these days.
    My wife's mother is in Italy..and when she comes back has to stay in a flat for 2 weeks..no going out, no walking the dog etc.....at the beginning of July....
    Oh, apologies Tyson - I assumed UK!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,278
    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    Do we have any footage of his appearances in front of select comittees. Doesn't he come across as a tetchy know it all blow hard?
    Yes he does.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRHlEjWRSE
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,362
    edited May 2020
    Let's not forget: breaking the rules just because someone else has broken the rules isn't a valid argument. It's amazing how many people seem to think like that. (Breaking the rules because you don't agree with them is in a different category).
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 11,387
    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    Do we have any footage of his appearances in front of select comittees. Doesn't he come across as a tetchy know it all blow hard?
    He sometimes declines to appear, no?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Is Stella so blinded by loyalty as not to see it is a moral social code that has been breached. It no longer matters if he broke one of his self drafted laws.
    Let`s not change the argument. Posts here were violently accusing him of breaking lockdown rules.

    Let`s see if he did or didn`t. It he didn`t let`s see some retractions from media outlets. If he did, he must go.
    Obviously, as Cyclefree says, that can be determined only by the courts.

    So good idea.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,274

    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    Here are some questions.

    1. Did you go to the Glaxo Smith Kline plant in Barnard’s Castle at any point in April on government business?
    2. Did any other member of the SAGE Committee attend the meeting(s) with you or on their own?
    3. Were any government ministers present at such meetings - either physically or remotely?
    4. Were the PM, the Health Secretary or Cobra members briefed on such meetings?
    5. What was discussed at such meetings?
    6. Were any agreements entered into as a result of or following such meetings?
    7. What were those agreements?
    Aha, so he was really on secret government business to save the nation!
    Something does not add up about this story. About why Boris has expended so much capital on him and, notably, about why there was no response on whether he had been in Barnard Castle.

    So maybe something else was going on.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 8,694

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Considering Boris had already told people they should use their own common sense ...

    ... I find it hilarious now to see critics suggesting the green light has been given to use your common sense.

    Why wasn't Boris literally saying to use your common sense not green light enough? Why did it need this to green light it?
    I wonder how many of the people complaining that they wanted specific guidelines and didn't want to think for themselves are now saying people should do what they want because of something someone else did over a month ago.

    There seems to be people who don't want to think for themselves and don't want to take any responsibility for their actions but instead want someone to blame if doing what they want to do goes wrong.
    Very well said.

    I think the left right divide can sometimes (certainly not always) be summed up as simply how willing you are to accept personal responsibility for your decision making.

    One reason I struggle to get exercised by this whole saga if it was for legitimate childcare reasons is literally anyone could make decisions for themselves if they had special childcare requirements.

    The day we live in a world where it's set rules for everyone with no thinking for yourself is a very bad one.
    The question is does responsibility for actions end with you and your children - or are their wider responsibilities you have to others - that would preclude driving a corona hotbox cross country.
    We don`t know the circumstances. People were so quick to judge yesterday. A three/four hour drive, no stops, no need to refuel, is easily feasible.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 105,295
    Andy_JS said:

    Let's not forget: breaking the rules just because someone else has broken the rules isn't a valid argument. It's amazing how many people seem to think like that. (Breaking the rules because you don't agree with them is in a different category).

    The PM and the Attorney General have created an estoppel by convention for everyone else.

    It is very much a valid argument.
  • Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    Do we have any footage of his appearances in front of select comittees. Doesn't he come across as a tetchy know it all blow hard?
    Yes he does.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRHlEjWRSE
    If this is what we are to expect, we are in for a treat.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 9,041
    Andy_JS said:

    https://twitter.com/ClarkeMicah/status/1264891600821460993

    "What’s truly surprising is just how recent the theory behind lockdown and forced distancing actually is. So far as anyone can tell, the intellectual machinery that made this mess was invented 14 years ago, and not by epidemiologists but by computer-simulation modelers. It was adopted not by experienced doctors – they warned ferociously against it – but by politicians."

    Someone needs to read "A Journal of the Plague Year."
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    edited May 2020
    Dom "harming" lockdown? Sorry, what lockdown? I live in a seaside town and lockdown has been over for a fortnight already. The suggestion that something Cummings did a month ago changes public behaviour now is laughable, life's already getting back to normal at a rapid rate.

    Beautiful, sunny Bank Holiday by the beach here. No one social distancing, no one wearing masks, gangs of youths drinking on the sea wall etc.

    I, meanwhilE, remain hunkered indoors working, looking forward to the increased taxes I will have to pay in perpetuity to fund people being on furlough - and enjoying their ice creams - until OCTOBER.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Stocky said:

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Considering Boris had already told people they should use their own common sense ...

    ... I find it hilarious now to see critics suggesting the green light has been given to use your common sense.

    Why wasn't Boris literally saying to use your common sense not green light enough? Why did it need this to green light it?
    I wonder how many of the people complaining that they wanted specific guidelines and didn't want to think for themselves are now saying people should do what they want because of something someone else did over a month ago.

    There seems to be people who don't want to think for themselves and don't want to take any responsibility for their actions but instead want someone to blame if doing what they want to do goes wrong.
    Very well said.

    I think the left right divide can sometimes (certainly not always) be summed up as simply how willing you are to accept personal responsibility for your decision making.

    One reason I struggle to get exercised by this whole saga if it was for legitimate childcare reasons is literally anyone could make decisions for themselves if they had special childcare requirements.

    The day we live in a world where it's set rules for everyone with no thinking for yourself is a very bad one.
    The question is does responsibility for actions end with you and your children - or are their wider responsibilities you have to others - that would preclude driving a corona hotbox cross country.
    We don`t know the circumstances. People were so quick to judge yesterday. A three/four hour drive, no stops, no need to refuel, is easily feasible.
    3 hour drive? 260 miles. Errrrrrr.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,674
    Stocky said:

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Considering Boris had already told people they should use their own common sense ...

    ... I find it hilarious now to see critics suggesting the green light has been given to use your common sense.

    Why wasn't Boris literally saying to use your common sense not green light enough? Why did it need this to green light it?
    I wonder how many of the people complaining that they wanted specific guidelines and didn't want to think for themselves are now saying people should do what they want because of something someone else did over a month ago.

    There seems to be people who don't want to think for themselves and don't want to take any responsibility for their actions but instead want someone to blame if doing what they want to do goes wrong.
    Very well said.

    I think the left right divide can sometimes (certainly not always) be summed up as simply how willing you are to accept personal responsibility for your decision making.

    One reason I struggle to get exercised by this whole saga if it was for legitimate childcare reasons is literally anyone could make decisions for themselves if they had special childcare requirements.

    The day we live in a world where it's set rules for everyone with no thinking for yourself is a very bad one.
    The question is does responsibility for actions end with you and your children - or are their wider responsibilities you have to others - that would preclude driving a corona hotbox cross country.
    We don`t know the circumstances. People were so quick to judge yesterday. A three/four hour drive, no stops, no need to refuel, is easily feasible.
    Yes the guidance was clear.

    Stay at home, save the NHS, drive 260 miles to see your elderly parents, save lives
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,013
    Andy_JS said:

    Let's not forget: breaking the rules just because someone else has broken the rules isn't a valid argument. It's amazing how many people seem to think like that. (Breaking the rules because you don't agree with them is in a different category).

    It's when the rule makers become the rule breakers that the whole thing becomes compromised.....

    Especially when we are in a global pandemic, and we are really asking a lot of people to stick by these rules.....
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,855
    Afternoon all! Had a glorious 5 hour bike ride into County Durham - a lorra lorra other cyclists, pedestrians, dog walkers the whole smash. Whatever lockdown was its over.

    So, this catastrofuck. I watched the Thick of It specials yesterday after the 'Ben Swain on Newsnight'-esque interview of Sebastian Fox on Andrew Marr. The specials include the bit where a cornered Malcolm Tucker calls the Newsnight producer and says he is going on. Had no idea that Armando Iannoucci was so much of a prophet - here we have Tucker 2020 doing a press conference in the fucking Downing Street rose garden.

    What can we expect? Options and outcomes:
    1. Dom spouts "I don't care what you think, I do what I want"
    2. Dom holds a photo of his wife and child and gives an emotive lecture on the trials of a father
    3. Dom apologises and submits himself to an enquiry
    4. Dom apologies and resigns

    Even scenario 4 doesn't help the government. He should have been sacked and wasn't, and as recently as this morning HMG was trotted out onto the media to repeat that he had done nothing wrong and the PM said it was fake news. If he quits surely the spotlight spins straight back onto Shagger - why he made such a catastrophic error of judgement backing this man so forcefully.

    And the other scenarios? The catastrofuck goes on. He's giving a statement and taking questions, so the best case for the government opt 4 seems unlikely. And holding it in the Rose Garden. The Downing Street Rose Garden. Where JM resigned and called out his critics to Put Up or Shut Up, Where DC and NC took turns to fellate each other in front of the press. Where American Presidents are welcomed and flip burgers for troops. That Rose Garden. With Tucker2020 giving a press conference like he is King Shit.

    This alone reinforces everything that people are now thinking negatively about the DC/BJ relationship. We know who tops who.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,274
    Stocky said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Is Stella so blinded by loyalty as not to see it is a moral social code that has been breached. It no longer matters if he broke one of his self drafted laws.
    Let`s not change the argument. Posts here were violently accusing him of breaking lockdown rules.

    Let`s see if he did or didn`t. It he didn`t let`s see some retractions from media outlets. If he did, he must go.
    How can Suella possibly say what she did without having had all the facts at her disposal from a proper investigation?

    She has also potentially compromised her position if the police do investigate and decide that there is a case to answer.

    Plus her role is to provide advice to the government not to any particular individual advising it, especially not in circumstances where there may be a potential conflict of interest between that individual’s position and the government.
  • Alistair said:

    isam said:

    Is Dominic seriously going to find a way to weasel out of this

    You can sense the disappointment of people that they might not get their political opponent.

    There's a word for that and it's witch-hunt.

    If Cummings had a reasonable excuse for what he did he acted lawfully as would anyone, literally anyone, who did the same thing with a reasonable excuse. That's not weasel behaviour.
    If him being already ill, and his wife having covid while they struggled to look after their autistic kid under the spotlight, during lockdown, isn't enough for his haters to buckle, I doubt anything is.

    I say "if" because I don't know that those three things are 100% true, but I don't think it would matter if they were.

    It would mean his detractors would have to act the same way towards any other couple in that situation to be consistent... but they aren't consistent as we often see
    How many couples are the commissioning editor of the Spectator and the chief advisor to the government - with family living near by?
    This is a situation where many families (of significantly less wealth) have made equally difficult decisions, and done the right thing. Many people know someone who has died alone, or in a care home with no family. Many people have not been able to attend the funerals of loved ones.

    Even an epic X Factor style sob story is not going to cut it. 'Rich bloke breaks the rules' is all that is cutting through.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,522

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    Do we have any footage of his appearances in front of select comittees. Doesn't he come across as a tetchy know it all blow hard?
    Yes he does.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRHlEjWRSE
    Put it this way. If a witness of mine answered questions in that manner in an employment tribunal I would, at that point, know I had lost. That was all about making himself look clever - which is poison to any judge, panel or jury.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,855
    Scott_xP said:

    What I really want Dom to say is "I am the man who makes the bhaji go away..."

    Surely you mean "I will not eat the pissy biscuit"
  • DougSeal said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Alistair said:

    If any member of the press asks a question longer than about 12 words they should be sacked or they are a Cummings plant.

    I am not convinced Robert Preston could ask a question in fewer than 12 words if his life depended upon it.
    Cummings is relying on the Lobby completely messing this one up, with 10m people watching it.

    Remember that the vast majority of people don't know him and have never seen him speak, if he comes across as intelligent and articulate (which he likely will), it could swing public opinion towards him.
    Do we have any footage of his appearances in front of select comittees. Doesn't he come across as a tetchy know it all blow hard?
    Yes he does.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRHlEjWRSE
    Put it this way. If a witness of mine answered questions in that manner in an employment tribunal I would, at that point, know I had lost. That was all about making himself look clever - which is poison to any judge, panel or jury.
    He doesn't really try and get people on side. Not sure that's a very good strategy when you're trying to play the sympathy card.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 8,522

    Dom "harming" lockdown? Sorry, what lockdown? I live in a seaside town and lockdown has been over for a fortnight already. The suggestion that something Cummings did a month ago changes public behaviour now is laughable, life's already getting back to normal at a rapid rate.

    Beautiful, sunny Bank Holiday by the beach here. No one social distancing, no one wearing masks, gangs of youths drinking on the sea wall etc.

    I, meanwhilE, remain hunkered indoors working, looking forward to the increased taxes I will have to pay in perpetuity to fund people being on furlough - and enjoying their ice creams - until OCTOBER.

    Whitstable has been dead for several weeks. My parents live in Blean and have a beach hut on Tankerton Slopes. They've been twice, once when it was reported it had been vandalised (it hadn't) and once when the restrictions were relaxed to actually use it (CCC confirmed that was okay). I'm off there later.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,843
    Mr. Battery, aye.

    I forget the precise quote, but there's one about always being polite and nice. That way, it's easier to make friends. And enemies won't see your knife until it's too late.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited May 2020
    Cyclefree said:


    Something does not add up about this story. About why Boris has expended so much capital on him and, notably, about why there was no response on whether he had been in Barnard Castle.

    So maybe something else was going on.


    Was thinking the same yesterday. Seemed odd to take so much flak when it's easy to leave and return, Mandelson-style.

    The "on secret govt business" line seems to be one of few ways he can survive this. Maybe add on mobile phone tracking data to concrete his movements a bit better - was noticeable yesterday the govt were specifically calling some of his sightings as fake.


  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,362
    "UK ready to move to phase two from next week with more lockdown easing"

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/05/25/uk-ready-move-phase-two-next-week-lockdown-easing-12753897/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,549
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    Absolutely, no chance of quarantine working now, might as well be a free for all.
    At £1,000 a pop that's one way to fill the deficit.....
    Its not going to happen. The governments plan is in shreds.
    You think they'll drop the quarantine?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,931
    Watching the BBC programme, the BBC are circling the wagons.The whole thing is a circus, it is total bollocks!
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 20,029
    He won't have to do much to rise above expectations. I imagine his main strategy will be to stick to generalities and avoid getting into the "which service station did you stop at on your way up" detail.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 10,895
    On topic, surely the copies of Wisden have been placed to cover up the actual books on the bookshelf. What's the bishop hiding? Satanism for Dummies? The Kama Sutra? Jeffrey Archer?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,121
    "The Great Post Office Trial" about the Sub-Post-Office counters scandal looks to be a really interesting series of 10 15-minute documentaries.

    First one was today.

    Will just fit in before Big Bad Dom.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jf7j
This discussion has been closed.