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  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,270
    eadric said:

    Some disturbing reading to pass the time as we wait. A quarter of covid deaths in Mexico are people aged 25-49

    !!

    https://twitter.com/MBA1930/status/1264602340981645312?s=20

    So even in Mexico over 75% of Covid deaths are in over 50s, yet Mexico has a median age of just 28 compared to 40 in the UK
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,679
    What time is the Grand Vizier's statement expected?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,771

    Bad Al used to say you have to kill the story within a few news cycles. Big Dom giving some press conference is just extending this for a load more.

    Isn’t it the seven day rule? But really, this won’t cease to be the main story for seven weeks if he doesn’t go. Even the humblest students of politics could see this on Friday night.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,646
    I think Cummings feels that, presented well, the events do not amount to a sacking matter. Boris was abject in his presentation yesterday. So Cummings is coming out to bat for himself.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,007
    HYUFD said:


    No, as the right still supports tax cuts as Thatcher did and unlike Foot and Foot was not pushing tighter immigration controls either.

    Thatcher was opposed to UK involvement in a Federal EU even as PM she did not advocate the UK leaving the EEC as Foot did.

    Roy Jenkins was classic liberal left though

    To be fair, the Conservatives in the Thatcher/Major period weren't averse to raising some taxes. Both Howe and Lamont raised VAT and even Lawson came to recognise the problems caused by fuelling a boom - in a period with more limited migration of low skilled workers, the late 1980s saw labour capacity problems which triggered wage inflation and then price inflation, all of which could be traced back to the Lamont budgets of 1986 and 1987.

    As an analogy to today, Thatcher came to value the advice of Sir Alan Walters more than Lawson and Howe and that led to Lamont quitting.

    On the EEC/EU, let's not forget Thatcher sent Arthur Cockfield to effectively create the Single Market so she was a huge supporter of lowering barriers to trade and creating the economic aspect of the Single Market but that EEC in the 1980s was very different from the EEC which created the Single European Act. The fall of the Warsaw Pact changed the whole dynamic of the EEC fundamentally and the ramifications of those events persist 30 years and more later.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408
    stjohn said:

    Paddy Power have bets about the statement. Evens he confirms he visited Barnard Castle. I’ve had the £10 they allowed me.

    Ta. Missed the price!

    Dominic Cummings @ PP/Betfair
    1/3 To confirm that he stopped into a Service Station on route to Durham
    4/6 To confirm that he visited Barnard Castle
    13/8 To say the word Brexit
    3/1 Dominic Cummings to wear a tie
    50/1 To declare "I'm the Prime Minister now"
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,584
    murali_s said:

    So will Dominic resign?

    I blo*dy well hope not! Can I be the founding member of the PB Tories for Dom club?
    I am torn I want him to stay as it is to Labours advantage.

    If he does probably adds more to the death toll as a large % will use it as a reason to say fook it and end the restrictions.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,251

    What time is the Grand Vizier's statement expected?

    rumoured to be 3pm
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Whatever Dom is I really don't think you can say he is like a normal member of the public.
    Your implicit complaint was that he is being treated better than a normal member of the public. I was just pointing out that a substantial chunk of the public has received no censure whatsoever for their own individual violations of lockdown, let alone become the subject of a nationwide witch hunt...
    Higher standards
    Ah, of course. Higher standards than the public, higher standards than the press, higher standards than government ministers (Jenrick), higher standards than Labour MPs (Kinnock and Ali), higher than the sun.

    I never knew people thought quite so highly of good old Dom.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,965
    edited May 2020
    stjohn said:

    I think Cummings feels that, presented well, the events do not amount to a sacking matter. Boris was abject in his presentation yesterday. So Cummings is coming out to bat for himself.

    Maybe, but the story will just continue to roll and roll. Maybe it's a cunning plan - this distraction is taking away from the fact the Tory Government and the Tory PM have been so abject in their handling of this crisis.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,954
    edited May 2020
    tlg86 said:

    Bad Al used to say you have to kill the story within a few news cycles. Big Dom giving some press conference is just extending this for a load more.

    Isn’t it the seven day rule? But really, this won’t cease to be the main story for seven weeks if he doesn’t go. Even the humblest students of politics could see this on Friday night.
    For a supposed political genius, Big Dom obviously sees them totally differently.

    Personally, I just can't get my head around it. If he went straight away, Boris gets to play leader and gets credit for swift action, upholding the rules, gets to play the look covid is really serious, I personally know, save the NHS.

    In the meantime, Big Dom can still advice unofficially via text, and in 6 months he gets rehired. Yes the Guardian do their nut, but most people will be more concerned about the state of the economy / their jobs (or lack of) by then.

    Also, when things calm down a bit, I think most people will say his rule breaking isn't so serious to be career ending, especially if he gives it the soft soap I was scared, confused, I have a kid with a medical condition, I made a mistake, etc.

    Mandy came back from the dead 3 times and ended up looking the most competent operator for the government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,270
    edited May 2020
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    No, as the right still supports tax cuts as Thatcher did and unlike Foot and Foot was not pushing tighter immigration controls either.

    Thatcher was opposed to UK involvement in a Federal EU even as PM she did not advocate the UK leaving the EEC as Foot did.

    Roy Jenkins was classic liberal left though

    To be fair, the Conservatives in the Thatcher/Major period weren't averse to raising some taxes. Both Howe and Lamont raised VAT and even Lawson came to recognise the problems caused by fuelling a boom - in a period with more limited migration of low skilled workers, the late 1980s saw labour capacity problems which triggered wage inflation and then price inflation, all of which could be traced back to the Lamont budgets of 1986 and 1987.

    As an analogy to today, Thatcher came to value the advice of Sir Alan Walters more than Lawson and Howe and that led to Lamont quitting.

    On the EEC/EU, let's not forget Thatcher sent Arthur Cockfield to effectively create the Single Market so she was a huge supporter of lowering barriers to trade and creating the economic aspect of the Single Market but that EEC in the 1980s was very different from the EEC which created the Single European Act. The fall of the Warsaw Pact changed the whole dynamic of the EEC fundamentally and the ramifications of those events persist 30 years and more later.
    The top income tax rate also fell from 83% when Thatcher got in to just 40% when she left thanks to Howe and Lawson and the basic rate of income tax fell as well from 33% to 30%. Lamont's raising VAT contributed to the Tory defeat in 1997.

    Thatcher supported the single market yes but not a Federal EU. She also did not anticipate Eastern European nations joining the EU nor that Blair would not impose transition controls on free movement from those nations when they did join

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 42,996
    edited May 2020
    "We can’t have a position where it is one rule for the public and another for politicians.

    If all the reports about Dominic Cummings are true, then I believe his position is untenable and he should resign."


    https://twitter.com/robertlargan/status/1264892952926699520
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,850

    murali_s said:

    So will Dominic resign?

    I blo*dy well hope not! Can I be the founding member of the PB Tories for Dom club?
    I am torn I want him to stay as it is to Labours advantage.

    If he does probably adds more to the death toll as a large % will use it as a reason to say fook it and end the restrictions.
    well that will be their own fault then...
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991
    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,599
    What time is Cardinal Wolsey giving his speech ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,251

    For a supposed political genius, Big Dom obviously sees them totally differently.

    That's what he thinks makes him a genius.

    Yes, there was an obvious route through this, but Dom is too smart for that...

    And his encounter with the press shows he has contempt for the views of anyone that isn't him.

    This may yet be his greatest triumph!!

    Or, you know, not...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408

    stjohn said:

    Paddy Power have bets about the statement. Evens he confirms he visited Barnard Castle. I’ve had the £10 they allowed me.

    Ta. Missed the price!

    Dominic Cummings @ PP/Betfair
    1/3 To confirm that he stopped into a Service Station on route to Durham
    4/6 To confirm that he visited Barnard Castle
    13/8 To say the word Brexit
    3/1 Dominic Cummings to wear a tie
    50/1 To declare "I'm the Prime Minister now"
    Brexit and tie shortened.

    1/3 To confirm that he stopped into a Service Station on route to Durham
    4/6 To confirm that he visited Barnard Castle
    6/5 To say the word Brexit
    2/1 Dominic Cummings to wear a tie
    50/1 To declare "I'm the Prime Minister now"
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Will they be releasing the doves of peace at 3pm. Will a gospel choir accompany Cummings redemption in front of the nation .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 105,270

    What time is Cardinal Wolsey giving his speech ?

    Didn't Wolsey have a heart attack on the way to his execution after Henry Viii decided he had got too big for his boots.

    Whether Boris is Henry Viii remains to be seen, at the moment he is more Louis 13th and Cummings is Richelieu
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Haha fantastic thread!!!!! Bravo Mike :D:D:D:D:D
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,584

    murali_s said:

    So will Dominic resign?

    I blo*dy well hope not! Can I be the founding member of the PB Tories for Dom club?
    I am torn I want him to stay as it is to Labours advantage.

    If he does probably adds more to the death toll as a large % will use it as a reason to say fook it and end the restrictions.
    well that will be their own fault then...
    If anyone caught it because of Cummings actions will it be their fault too?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    What time is Cardinal Wolsey giving his speech ?

    Eid Mubarak.

    Nobody knows, we are left guessing. Classic Dom.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Whatever Dom is I really don't think you can say he is like a normal member of the public.
    Your implicit complaint was that he is being treated better than a normal member of the public. I was just pointing out that a substantial chunk of the public has received no censure whatsoever for their own individual violations of lockdown, let alone become the subject of a nationwide witch hunt...
    Higher standards
    Ah, of course. Higher standards than the public, higher standards than the press, higher standards than government ministers (Jenrick), higher standards than Labour MPs (Kinnock and Ali), higher than the sun.

    I never knew people thought quite so highly of good old Dom.
    My wife has just booked tickets to Italy which she was delaying due to the quarantine rules....she now feels the quarantine rules are an absolute nonsense given Cummings position....

    My sister....a borderline Tory phoned me up this morning and told me that she couldn't sleep because the Cummings thing wound her up so much.....

    Personally, I want him to stay on one side...if he stays though many more people will die because the Govt will struggle to hold the line on it's lockdown rules....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,599
    HYUFD said:

    What time is Cardinal Wolsey giving his speech ?

    Didn't Wolsey have a heart attack on the way to his execution after Henry Viii decided he had got too big for his boots.

    Whether Boris is Henry Viii remains to be seen, at the moment he is more Louis 13th and Cummings is Richelieu
    I can see any similarities between Boris Johnson and the serial adulterer and many times divorced Henry VIII.

    Actually I can, one created a religion for his desires and Henry VIII set up the Church of England.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,954
    Germany’s flagship airline Lufthansa has agreed to a multi-billion-euro aid deal with the country’s government, as the company seeks to shore up its finances amid the coronavirus pandemic, reports say.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408
    Shadsy's buzzword bingo -- not entirely clear to which briefing this applies, should there be more than one; is there?

    Regret 1/1
    Harrassment 2/1
    Main Stream Media 2/1
    Private Matter 2/1
    Wetherby Services 3/1
    Twitter 4/1
    Business of Government 5/1
    Westminster Bubble 5/1
    Bluebells 6/1
    Hard Working Families 6/1
    Paternal Instinct 6/1
    Classic 10/1
    Snowflakes 12/1
    Vintage 25/1
    Bismarck 50/1
    Sardines 50/1
    Evil Genius SUSP
    Nauseating SUSP
    Sorry 1/2
    Apologise 1/1
    Stay at Home 2/1
    Brexit 3/1
    Hypocrisy 3/1
    Fake News 5/1
    Take Back Control 16/1
    Witch Hunt 16/1
    Storm in a Teacup 25/1

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,259
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    No, as the right still supports tax cuts as Thatcher did and unlike Foot and Foot was not pushing tighter immigration controls either.

    Thatcher was opposed to UK involvement in a Federal EU even as PM she did not advocate the UK leaving the EEC as Foot did.

    Roy Jenkins was classic liberal left though

    To be fair, the Conservatives in the Thatcher/Major period weren't averse to raising some taxes. Both Howe and Lamont raised VAT and even Lawson came to recognise the problems caused by fuelling a boom - in a period with more limited migration of low skilled workers, the late 1980s saw labour capacity problems which triggered wage inflation and then price inflation, all of which could be traced back to the Lawson budgets of 1986 and 1987.

    As an analogy to today, Thatcher came to value the advice of Sir Alan Walters more than Lawson and Howe and that led to Lawson quitting.

    On the EEC/EU, let's not forget Thatcher sent Arthur Cockfield to effectively create the Single Market so she was a huge supporter of lowering barriers to trade and creating the economic aspect of the Single Market but that EEC in the 1980s was very different from the EEC which created the Single European Act. The fall of the Warsaw Pact changed the whole dynamic of the EEC fundamentally and the ramifications of those events persist 30 years and more later.
    (Having changed a couple of Lamonts to Lawsons.)

    One difference being the 1980s and Thatcher's support of the single market to the present is the trade balance.

    The UK was running a trade surplus until the late 1980s (one of the consequences of the Lawson boom) whereas we are currently on our 23rd consecutive year of trade deficit.

    I doubt Thatcher ever imagined that the UK ever would, or even perhaps ever could, live so far and so long beyond its means.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 104,599
    IshmaelZ said:

    What time is Cardinal Wolsey giving his speech ?

    Eid Mubarak.

    Nobody knows, we are left guessing. Classic Dom.
    Thank you. I hope I get to say after watching it

    ‘ Who was it that did your media training, Myra Hindley? It’s terrible! All these hands all over the place. You were like a sweaty octopus trying to unhook a bra. It was like watching John Leslie at work.’



  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,584

    murali_s said:

    So will Dominic resign?

    I blo*dy well hope not! Can I be the founding member of the PB Tories for Dom club?
    I am torn I want him to stay as it is to Labours advantage.

    If he does probably adds more to the death toll as a large % will use it as a reason to say fook it and end the restrictions.
    https://www.facebook.com/messenger_media/?thread_id=100003642359140&attachment_id=1587891108040271&message_id=mid.$cAAAAAP2Fqzp4eNu3N1yR5ZutmWL3
    well that will be their own fault then...
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    Brexit and tie shortened.

    1/3 To confirm that he stopped into a Service Station on route to Durham
    4/6 To confirm that he visited Barnard Castle
    6/5 To say the word Brexit
    2/1 Dominic Cummings to wear a tie
    50/1 To declare "I'm the Prime Minister now"


    Going to ask Shadsy for a tidy accy on him getting up there, insulting the Queen, punching Captain Tom, setting fire to the Torah, Bible and Koran, and then declaring a military coup.



  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    murali_s said:

    So will Dominic resign?

    I blo*dy well hope not! Can I be the founding member of the PB Tories for Dom club?
    I am torn I want him to stay as it is to Labours advantage.

    If he does probably adds more to the death toll as a large % will use it as a reason to say fook it and end the restrictions.
    Might what people say in explanation of why they broke lockdown, not be entirely truthful?
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    HYUFD said:

    What time is Cardinal Wolsey giving his speech ?

    Didn't Wolsey have a heart attack on the way to his execution after Henry Viii decided he had got too big for his boots.

    Whether Boris is Henry Viii remains to be seen, at the moment he is more Louis 13th and Cummings is Richelieu
    To be fair Boris still has till to get to wife #6......
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,916

    Shadsy's buzzword bingo -- not entirely clear to which briefing this applies, should there be more than one; is there?

    Regret 1/1
    Harrassment 2/1
    Main Stream Media 2/1
    Private Matter 2/1
    Wetherby Services 3/1
    Twitter 4/1
    Business of Government 5/1
    Westminster Bubble 5/1
    Bluebells 6/1
    Hard Working Families 6/1
    Paternal Instinct 6/1
    Classic 10/1
    Snowflakes 12/1
    Vintage 25/1
    Bismarck 50/1
    Sardines 50/1
    Evil Genius SUSP
    Nauseating SUSP
    Sorry 1/2
    Apologise 1/1
    Stay at Home 2/1
    Brexit 3/1
    Hypocrisy 3/1
    Fake News 5/1
    Take Back Control 16/1
    Witch Hunt 16/1
    Storm in a Teacup 25/1

    Shadsy is going to have a very good summer holiday, judging by most of those prices.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,489

    Shadsy's buzzword bingo -- not entirely clear to which briefing this applies, should there be more than one; is there?

    Regret 1/1
    Harrassment 2/1
    Main Stream Media 2/1
    Private Matter 2/1
    Wetherby Services 3/1
    Twitter 4/1
    Business of Government 5/1
    Westminster Bubble 5/1
    Bluebells 6/1
    Hard Working Families 6/1
    Paternal Instinct 6/1
    Classic 10/1
    Snowflakes 12/1
    Vintage 25/1
    Bismarck 50/1
    Sardines 50/1
    Evil Genius SUSP
    Nauseating SUSP
    Sorry 1/2
    Apologise 1/1
    Stay at Home 2/1
    Brexit 3/1
    Hypocrisy 3/1
    Fake News 5/1
    Take Back Control 16/1
    Witch Hunt 16/1
    Storm in a Teacup 25/1

    I think he will produce the autistic kid in a MAGA hat just to fuck with our OODA loops.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,259
    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408
    Sandpit said:

    Shadsy's buzzword bingo -- not entirely clear to which briefing this applies, should there be more than one; is there?

    Regret 1/1
    Harrassment 2/1
    Main Stream Media 2/1
    Private Matter 2/1
    Wetherby Services 3/1
    Twitter 4/1
    Business of Government 5/1
    Westminster Bubble 5/1
    Bluebells 6/1
    Hard Working Families 6/1
    Paternal Instinct 6/1
    Classic 10/1
    Snowflakes 12/1
    Vintage 25/1
    Bismarck 50/1
    Sardines 50/1
    Evil Genius SUSP
    Nauseating SUSP
    Sorry 1/2
    Apologise 1/1
    Stay at Home 2/1
    Brexit 3/1
    Hypocrisy 3/1
    Fake News 5/1
    Take Back Control 16/1
    Witch Hunt 16/1
    Storm in a Teacup 25/1

    Shadsy is going to have a very good summer holiday, judging by most of those prices.
    He'll be able to afford an Uber to Durham; one of the posh ones.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,646
    It’s good to have live sport back on TV. What time is kick off?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,674
    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    Absolutely, no chance of quarantine working now, might as well be a free for all.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,162

    I’m curious to find out what he can say to make things better. And suspecting that he is a man in a hole who can’t stop digging.

    Or indeed whether what he says today is consistent with everything that’s been said by him, his wife and others on his behalf.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 11,007
    HYUFD said:


    Thatcher supported the single market yes but not a Federal EU. She also did not anticipate Eastern European nations joining the EU nor that Blair would not impose transition controls on free movement from those nations when they did join

    I'm not sure that's entirely correct. Whether a policy intention or not, the policies pursued in the 1980s by the UK and especially by the US under Reagan contributed to the final collapse of the Warsaw Pact. Thatcher was Prime Minister when the Berlin Wall fell and the former Warsaw Pact states came out of Russian control.

    To her credit (and I will always give her this), she was opposed to German re-unification as was Mitterrand (there's a fascinating account of a dinner Thatcher and Mitterrand had at the Elysee in January 1990 as recorded by Charles Powell) but President George HW Bush was supportive as of course was Kohl and there was basically nothing the British and French could do to stop it.

    Their opposition was derided by many as a throwback to WW2 but I don't believe it was - the fall of the Iron Curtain led to an immediate depopulation of East Germany and Eastern Europe as a wave of economic migrants headed west.

    My personal view is that just as in 1918-19, the West missed a major opportunity to establish the foundations for long term economic and political stability and security in central and eastern Europe in 1989-90. There was so much more we could and should have done to repair the ravages of Communism, both economically and politically.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    stjohn said:

    It’s good to have live sport back on TV. What time is kick off?

    Telegraph have a live stream on Youtube from 4pm and Andrew Neil has just tweeted he has heard that it starts at 4 also.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408

    Sandpit said:

    Shadsy's buzzword bingo -- not entirely clear to which briefing this applies, should there be more than one; is there?

    Regret 1/1
    Harrassment 2/1
    Main Stream Media 2/1
    Private Matter 2/1
    Wetherby Services 3/1
    Twitter 4/1
    Business of Government 5/1
    Westminster Bubble 5/1
    Bluebells 6/1
    Hard Working Families 6/1
    Paternal Instinct 6/1
    Classic 10/1
    Snowflakes 12/1
    Vintage 25/1
    Bismarck 50/1
    Sardines 50/1
    Evil Genius SUSP
    Nauseating SUSP
    Sorry 1/2
    Apologise 1/1
    Stay at Home 2/1
    Brexit 3/1
    Hypocrisy 3/1
    Fake News 5/1
    Take Back Control 16/1
    Witch Hunt 16/1
    Storm in a Teacup 25/1

    Shadsy is going to have a very good summer holiday, judging by most of those prices.
    He'll be able to afford an Uber to Durham; one of the posh ones.
    Paternal instinct has been hammered into 3/1 from 6/1 (Ladbrokes).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,162
    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
  • The Times' perspective on this is interesting
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991
    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,251
    looks like 4pm
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    Absolutely, no chance of quarantine working now, might as well be a free for all.
    What tosh
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,720

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Whatever Dom is I really don't think you can say he is like a normal member of the public.
    Your implicit complaint was that he is being treated better than a normal member of the public. I was just pointing out that a substantial chunk of the public has received no censure whatsoever for their own individual violations of lockdown, let alone become the subject of a nationwide witch hunt...
    Higher standards
    Ah, of course. Higher standards than the public, higher standards than the press, higher standards than government ministers (Jenrick), higher standards than Labour MPs (Kinnock and Ali), higher than the sun.

    I never knew people thought quite so highly of good old Dom.
    He was instrumental in devising these rules so yes. Higher standards than all those people.

    I really hadn't thought this was a tricky concept to grasp.
  • SaltireSaltire Posts: 525
    Saltire said:

    stjohn said:

    It’s good to have live sport back on TV. What time is kick off?

    Telegraph have a live stream on Youtube from 4pm and Andrew Neil has just tweeted he has heard that it starts at 4 also.
    But the BBC now have a news special starting on BBC1 from 3:30.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,916
    edited May 2020
    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    Right now, there's a lot of planes parked up, and a lot of pilots not flying. There's a significant risk of more accidents due to rusty pilots and rusty planes, as things start to get back to something approaching normal.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Saltire said:

    Saltire said:

    stjohn said:

    It’s good to have live sport back on TV. What time is kick off?

    Telegraph have a live stream on Youtube from 4pm and Andrew Neil has just tweeted he has heard that it starts at 4 also.
    But the BBC now have a news special starting on BBC1 from 3:30.
    Matches 4pm. Coverage for PMQs always starts at 11:30am not 12 noon.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    tyson said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Whatever Dom is I really don't think you can say he is like a normal member of the public.
    Your implicit complaint was that he is being treated better than a normal member of the public. I was just pointing out that a substantial chunk of the public has received no censure whatsoever for their own individual violations of lockdown, let alone become the subject of a nationwide witch hunt...
    Higher standards
    Ah, of course. Higher standards than the public, higher standards than the press, higher standards than government ministers (Jenrick), higher standards than Labour MPs (Kinnock and Ali), higher than the sun.

    I never knew people thought quite so highly of good old Dom.
    My wife has just booked tickets to Italy which she was delaying due to the quarantine rules....she now feels the quarantine rules are an absolute nonsense given Cummings position....

    My sister....a borderline Tory phoned me up this morning and told me that she couldn't sleep because the Cummings thing wound her up so much.....

    Personally, I want him to stay on one side...if he stays though many more people will die because the Govt will struggle to hold the line on it's lockdown rules....
    That is so very weird. My family went into lockdown before the Government told us to, we follow stricter precautions than the Government told us to, and we'll remain in lockdown for quite some time after the Government tells us it's safe to go back to normal. Hence Cummings' comings and goings have no effect on us whatsoever.

    Do people really need role models and authority figures to model correct behaviour for them? I honestly don't understand it.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 8,891
    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
    Let's hope this thing about following your instincts making everything legal applies to all areas of the law ...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,162
    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 72,954
    Sandpit said:

    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    Right now, there's a lot of planes parked up, and a lot of pilots not flying. There's a significant risk of more accidents due to rusty pilots and rusty planes, as things start to get back to something approaching normal.

    I watched an interesting video about just how problematic grounded planes are, from where to park the bastards to all the issues of them not flying regularly resulting in all sorts of issues.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,259
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991
    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.

    Exactly.....my wife was really worried about the quarantine rules...but she has weighed it up and thinks that the moral case is made...she can visit her elderly mum and flout the quarantine rules because it is on her mum's interests to be seen....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 57,162
    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    Absolutely, no chance of quarantine working now, might as well be a free for all.
    At £1,000 a pop that's one way to fill the deficit.....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,921
    Scott_xP said:
    If he’s taking questions it sounds as though he’s not planning on resigning.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,259
    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
    You omit the heath factor in your comment.

    That is what should be the determinant - whether the extra risk is worth it or not.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,916

    Sandpit said:

    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    Right now, there's a lot of planes parked up, and a lot of pilots not flying. There's a significant risk of more accidents due to rusty pilots and rusty planes, as things start to get back to something approaching normal.

    I watched an interesting video about just how problematic grounded planes are, from where to park the bastards to all the issues of them not flying regularly resulting in all sorts of issues.
    Yep, there's lots of wet bits that get dry, and lots of dry bits that get wet. A temporarily grounded plane still requires constant maintenance.

    One large airline in this region is now flying A380s in circuits around the airport, to keep planes operational and pilots current at landings.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,149


    Apologies if this point has been said already.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408
    Scott_xP said:
    Cummings needs to fess up to anywhere he has been in case people start finding him in the background of their selfies.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
    The motivation you describe has nothing to do with DC other than the implication that DC's "justification" served to clarify the existing message. I don't think that was Tyson's point.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Sandpit said:

    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    That's a bit weird - an automatic warning should have happened if they tried to land with gear up.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,584

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 335
    edited May 2020
    I haven't watched Game of Thrones but I gather someone does a Walk of Shame in the nude in it. Hopefully we will be spared the nude bit from Dom. But we will probably be spared the shame.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,674

    Foxy said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    Absolutely, no chance of quarantine working now, might as well be a free for all.
    At £1,000 a pop that's one way to fill the deficit.....
    Its not going to happen. The governments plan is in shreds.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,921
    edited May 2020



    Apologies if this point has been said already.

    Well, he’s not really taking part in it, is he? He’s more the cause of it.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
    I'd like to see how many employers will be policing their staff when they return from trips abroad...

    I really don't want my wife to go (and my wife doesn't want to go)...and have used your argument...but her mum is desperate to see her...my father-in-law died a couple of years ago, and she is by herself....


    But Cummings actions....have released my wife from the argument that she has to quarantine coming back- which is why she has booked this morning....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Whatever Dom is I really don't think you can say he is like a normal member of the public.
    Your implicit complaint was that he is being treated better than a normal member of the public. I was just pointing out that a substantial chunk of the public has received no censure whatsoever for their own individual violations of lockdown, let alone become the subject of a nationwide witch hunt...
    Higher standards
    Ah, of course. Higher standards than the public, higher standards than the press, higher standards than government ministers (Jenrick), higher standards than Labour MPs (Kinnock and Ali), higher than the sun.

    I never knew people thought quite so highly of good old Dom.
    He was instrumental in devising these rules so yes. Higher standards than all those people.

    I really hadn't thought this was a tricky concept to grasp.
    Indeed. If a normal member of the public breaks the laws on this the worst they likely face is a fine. If he has broken the law he should go.

    If the law wasn't broken then fair enough.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Andrew said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    That's a bit weird - an automatic warning should have happened if they tried to land with gear up.
    They had already declared a problem with extending their nose gear to ATC. Seen suggestions they initially attempted a belly-landing, aborted and did a go around and then the engines failed on the subsequent approach.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,584
    Boris cannot sack Cummings it would be like Debbie Mcghee sacking Paul Daniels in order to pursue her magic career.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100
    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    The implication in your post is clearly that your wife would not have made the decision she has without the DC fracas. That's twerpish.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 15,319
    I find it bizarre that anyone would sit inside on a glorious sunny afternoon to watch some over promoted dickhead whine about his quarantine breaking. But, each to his own. I’m off to have a few beers in the garden!
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    tyson said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    My wife is not sick...does not have symptoms....she is making an assumption that if she returns from Italy without symptoms she'll not bother with the quarantine because what Dom has done makes that OK....

    Exactly why you cannot have one rule for some and one for others....
    You got the £1000 ready in case she's fined?

    She will be very unlucky to get caught.

    Once Cummings floodgates open the police will neither have the resources or inclination to stop everybody.

    Boris is responsible for giving the green light to follow your intuition.
    Love it - individual citizens apparently bear no moral responsibility for their own actions once a SpaD has broken the rules? And this coming from the people who moralize furiously about the terrible sinfulness of said violation?

    That does rather make all the moralizing look as if it's for show, doesn't it?
  • ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If he’s taking questions it sounds as though he’s not planning on resigning.
    Quite so. I suppose it's just conceivably possible that he will step aside from his role whilst the Cabinet Secretary or an equally respected unbiased individual undertakes an enquiry into exactly what has taken place, the advice sought and who was kept nformed and when.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,082
    edited May 2020
    Cummings on at 4.00pm,

    I thought it was 3.00pm

    In the Rose Garden
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    Touch wood hope none of my family get the virus.
    Today is my wedding anniversary.
    My parents in their 80s have not seen me and the wife in 12 weeks.
    But this afternoon they came and sat in our garden , all 2 metres apart.
    As you say who cares anymore, when he can do with symtoms , where ever he likes.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408
    ydoethur said:



    Apologies if this point has been said already.

    Well, he’s not really taking part in it, is he? He’s more the cause of it.
    It might be this means Cummings has already quit; more likely it means he is above the rules. Your guess is as good as mine but you can get 13/8 with Bf/PP or 6/4 with Ladbrokes that Cummings will be gone by the end of the month.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,916
    edited May 2020
    Andrew said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another very weird story that everyone's ignoring, the crash of an airliner in Pakistan a couple of days ago.

    It's looking like pilot error (they failed to put the landing gear down, scraped the engines along the runway and took off again, but the engines were damaged and failed, leading to a crash).

    That's a bit weird - an automatic warning should have happened if they tried to land with gear up.
    Correct, the Ground Proximity Warning System. They must have been seriously distracted to have missed it "TOO LOW, GEAR", along with a "Master Caution" chime warning on the A320 - but very high workloads have, many times before, led to pilots not noticing alarms in the cockpit. The GPWS warning is continuous and can't be cancelled except by turning off the whole GPWS. Alarm noises were reportedly heard on the ATC tape.

    Early evidence says they were way too hot and high, and seriously messed up the approach, should have gone around several minutes before the landing attempt.

    Thankfully the FDR and CVR "black boxes' have both been recovered in good condition, so we should find out what happened soon enough. Really weird accident.

    http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=0
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 11,236
    Cyclefree said:

    I’m curious to find out what he can say to make things better. And suspecting that he is a man in a hole who can’t stop digging.

    Or indeed whether what he says today is consistent with everything that’s been said by him, his wife and others on his behalf.
    Well, it's very high risk to say the least.

    For a start, he's a SPAD and therefore it is questionablle whether he should be able to appear on such a public platform. His 'superior officer' (i.e. Boris) should be doing that. Will this be a one-off, or will it become the norm for SPADs of all ranks to give public explanations of their conduct to the Press?

    I agree that is hard to see how he could make things better. It could easily make them much more difficult. So far his attitude to the Press has been along the lines of 'bugger off and mind your own business'. Not sure that will pass muster this time.

    Gonna be interesting.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,408

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:
    If he’s taking questions it sounds as though he’s not planning on resigning.
    Quite so. I suppose it's just conceivably possible that he will step aside from his role whilst the Cabinet Secretary or an equally respected unbiased individual undertakes an enquiry into exactly what has taken place, the advice sought and who was kept nformed and when.
    There was a big line of people outside B&Q this morning. Perhaps they anticipated a run on whitewash.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,594
    Is Dom going to announce a coalition with Boris in the rose garden?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,321

    Cummings on at 4.00pm,

    I thought it was 3.00pm

    In the Rose Garden

    # Along with the sunshine
    # There's gotta be a little rain some time
    # When you take you gotta give so live and let live

    Fitting...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 54,921

    Is Dom going to announce a coalition with Boris in the rose garden?

    Hopefully not a la Game of Thrones stark naked as suggested upthread....
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,991
    alterego said:

    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
    The motivation you describe has nothing to do with DC other than the implication that DC's "justification" served to clarify the existing message. I don't think that was Tyson's point.
    No Cyclefree is right on this one...my wife really does believe she is acting with integrity booking this visit, and not having to apply the quarantine rules when she returns because of what Cummings has done....which is basically if you believe your actions are helping someone who is vulnerable (my mother in law)...then it's justifiable not to stick to the rules....


  • So, do we think:

    a) Mawkish nonsense, using wife and child as a shield
    b) Epic rant about the biased media
    c) Bit of Both

    As resignation is highly unlikely.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,259
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    That depends how much she is willing to put her mother at risk.

    Just because someone else acts irresponsibly doesn't mean that you should do likewise even if you can.
    My wife doesn't have to quarantine in Italy...it is coming back to the UK where the rules apply....and obviously those rules have become a free for all thanks to Dom's unapologetic recklessness.....

    Quarantine or not your wife seeing her mother is a risk factor - now that may be a risk they are willing to take but that shouldn't be affected by what someone else did or didn't do over a month ago.

    And the government has never intended to police any quarantine - that would have been left to employers to do.
    I'd like to see how many employers will be policing their staff when they return from trips abroad...

    I really don't want my wife to go (and my wife doesn't want to go)...and have used your argument...but her mum is desperate to see her...my father-in-law died a couple of years ago, and she is by herself....


    But Cummings actions....have released my wife from the argument that she has to quarantine coming back- which is why she has booked this morning....
    My employer will be.

    Not out of concern about government guidelines but because we don't want to risk multiple infections among employees.

    Albeit a theoretical stance at present as it hasn't yet applied to anyone.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,162
    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    alterego said:

    tyson said:

    Yorkcity said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    I don't care if he was recovering from an operation, his missus had got covid-19 and his son is autistic - No sympathy, I want him sacked.

    Same as I would any normal member of the public in those circumstances

    Listen, the Chief Constable had broken his leg in February and his aunt has diabetes so I think he should be let off the theft of a Mars Bar. Just like any normal member of the public.
    How many normal members of the public have broken some aspect of the lockdown regulations and received no penalty whatsoever? Millions by now, surely? So actually quite a bit like a normal member of the public after all.
    Surely it is the quarantine regulations he has broken ?

    Most normal people would not have gone and put their aged parents at risk.
    Knowing they had the virus.
    However most normal people would think you are a complete bastard to drive 250 miles to do that.
    My wife has just booked tickets in July,......

    About the quarantine in the UK....she said.. "who cares? it's OK for Cummings to drive someone with symptoms across the country, it is certainly more than OK for me to see my elderly mother and return without abiding by these rules....."
    So she is doing that just 'cos of DC? That would be very twerpish.
    No. She’s following her instincts. Which the PM has said is OK, indeed, not just OK but right, legal and acting with integrity.
    Let's hope this thing about following your instincts making everything legal applies to all areas of the law ...
    Well according to the A-G it has.

    Look I don’t think that one should take a risky course of action just because some other twit has. But when Prime Ministers and Attorneys-General go round undermining the law it is not surprising that some people will interpret laws, rules, guidance, whatever, in ways which suit them best.

    And the government has lost the ability to criticise them for it.
This discussion has been closed.