It must be every Remainers hope that if Brexit isn't abandoned we leave with no deal. The only way to excise the cancer of these insane Tory Leavers is to show them and their followers once and for all that leaving is a really bad idea which will make us culturally and financially much worse off.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
Bets are agreed on explicit, objective terms. Not lies written on the side of a bus
'BREXIT’S fate will now be decided by an extraordinary X Factor-style run-off of votes next week – between Theresa May’s deal, a soft Brexit and a second referendum. Instead of dumping her EU agreement, No10 revealed the PM will instead try to bring it back a FOURTH time next week.'
Bercow to rule on Monday only the top 3 options from last Wednesday ie WA plus CU and EUref2 and EEA and CU will be voted for again in the next round of indicative votes with amendments receiving lower support like No Deal and revoke Art 50 and straight EEA eliminated.
May will then wait until 1 option is left and pit her Deal against it in a final runoff amongst MPs
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
Bring it on.
"Bring 'em on! I'd prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!" - Han Solo, 1977.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
It looks like the start of an ITV supernatural drama from the 70's. "Rory Stewart! Master of Mesmerism! Defeats dark forces from a spirit dimension! Tonight at 7pm! And now, Clapperboard!"
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
That it was a democratic decision is important. That no-one seems able to implement it sensibly makes it a problem. Leavers haven't worked to enable the collective decision either, and I am talking about essentially all Leavers, not just ERG nutcases. People are losing confidence in Brexit. Ultimately responsibility has to lie either with Leavers because it's their project or with Brexit itself because it's intrinsically unworkable.
If Brexit was intrinsically unworkable, every country outside the EU would be a failed state.
Not necessarily. Those other countries are not Brexiting. In the abstract it is perfectly possible for the UK to not be a member of the EU. The UK can leave the EU reasonably successfully if it accepts there will be considerable disruption, it will have less trade and therefore a degree less prosperity, fewer prospects etc and a smaller influence over what happens to us because we're no longer helping to set the rules. But as the people were promised no cost and "taking control" (whatever that exactly consists of) the problem is right there. Brexit is relative impoverishment by choice.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
And so I have. But I will not be compelled to assist it, I will loudly point out its malign nature and I will stamp the dirt down when this crazy policy is finally interred.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
That it was a democratic decision is important. That no-one seems able to implement it sensibly makes it a problem. Leavers haven't worked to enable the collective decision either, and I am talking about essentially all Leavers, not just ERG nutcases. People are losing confidence in Brexit. Ultimately responsibility has to lie either with Leavers because it's their project or with Brexit itself because it's intrinsically unworkable.
If Brexit was intrinsically unworkable, every country outside the EU would be a failed state.
Which begs the question as to why we have not to date found a way to make it work.
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
As mentioned often, that figure is in fact for no-deal, with many other polls showing a significant number of those assume no-deal means to remain. From comparing various polls with other posters, it seems the hard Brexit core is more around 28-30 %.
I'd say the number who want a No Deal Brexit is about 25%. The number who would prefer it to revocation is much higher, but that doesn't mean they want it to happen.
I'm curious as to when the desire for No Deal began.
Initially it was the competing claims of Hard and Soft Brexit with May's Deal being a pretty hard variety.
But I don't remember much of the nihilistic desire for No Deal Brexit until the last year.
No Deal started getting mentioned when it became clear that the EU wasn't going to roll over, and our men - DD, Boris etc. - weren't the great negotiating supermen we were led to believe. When they realized things weren't going all their own way, the Leavers sulked and said 'We never wanted you shitty deal anyway'. All a bit childish really.
Then you can't have had any confidence in whether your decision was actually justified. And you could be easily coraled by media portrayals of baskets of ugly deplorables voting the other way. Which is essentially what remainerism is. It is a garment you wear to show how tolerant and right on you are. It's intellectual laziness.
My point was that to a rational person it ought not to be a matter of complete irrelevance if a political view to which they subscribe is also subscribed to by virtually 100% of the racist moron community. It might not make them change their mind but it ought to give them pause for thought.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
The blame for the Democratic process not been honoured should go to the Leavers who failed to articulate what leave was going to be before people voted. Th I
Austrian Minister on Newsnight says if Commons coalesces around a new agreement could be looked at but would still require participation in the European elections.
If a general election or referendum the UK would also participate in the EU elections but at a later date than the rest of the EU
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
And so I have. But I will not be compelled to assist it, I will loudly point out its malign nature and I will stamp the dirt down when this crazy policy is finally interred.
And good for you. You have a huge array of ways in which you can loudly sing the praises of the EU or whatever else you might want to do.
However it is all of our jobs to deliver on the vote. That's what we said when we voted. Thus to say that the Leavers have messed up the delivery on the Brexit vote isn't right - for good or bad we've all messed up on our promise to ourselves. It's not good.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
That depends upon what the consequences of a No Deal would be.
I am not sanguine about that when we have Fox and Grayling in two vital positions, the government barely functioning as it is and the economic cycle drawing to its end.
I am not worried about Fox. Grayling however is simply unfit for office - unless it’s a janitor somewhere.
This would be the same Dr Fox who sent more trade negotiators to Canberra and Washington DC than to all the countries that the EU had agreements with combined?
If we had rolled over the EU's existing trade agreements by now (or better managed it 12 months ago), then our negotiating position would be much stronger, and the dangers of No Deal would be much less.
One thing which makes it difficult to take the No Deal supporters seriously is that they haven't been calling for the sackings of Fox and Grayling.
If they really wanted No Deal then they should have been demanding that the trade and transport roles were under competent control.
Shame also on Mrs May, who keeps Dr Fox around as he is a "loyal Leaver".
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
Fustian bloody nonsense. The referendum was advisory, and honouring it requires only considering the advice given. We have considered it for nearly three years and concluded that it was stupid and unworkable advice and to be roundly rejected.
Beaconsfield Conservative Association have missed the ultimate banter heuristic by not announcing the deselection result as the clocks were bonging. Might be another 15 minutes.
Anyway, while we might not (yet) have the results we wanted tonight, surely tonight's a good time to be grateful for what we do have.
Since the referendum I've acquired two lovely mini-Drutts and (despite...), a nicer job, and a faster car. Wait...
From a purely party-political point of view, the best thing for the Conservative Party now would be to engineer a General Election as soon as possible and hope to lose it (this second bit shouldn't be hard). This would hand the entire pile of steaming ordure over to Labour, or even better an unholy alliance of Labour, the LibDems and (best of all, from the Tories' point of view) the SNP, who aren't exactly friends with Labour. The ensuing chaos would also be quite useful in taking down Corbynism for ever.
Whether this is best for the country is debatable; high-risk, certainly.
Did you see the documentary on BBC4 earlier tonight?
The Fleetwood Mac doc ?
No, but I'll look it up on the iplayer.
It was on Sky Arts.
One of the most interesting things of the many about PG, when Fleetwood Mac started getting big and buying sports cars, spending money lavishly, he suggested they give most of their earnings to starving African kids instead (he actually wanted to deliver Cheese & Tomato sandwiches to them personally), but Mick Fleetwood stopped the rest of them doing it... on judgement day, will he be considered the mad one?
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
The blame for the Democratic process not been honoured should go to the Leavers who failed to articulate what leave was going to be before people voted. Th I
And those who failed to try to find a consensus on the way forward and instead fostered division in order to gain internal party advantage.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
Fustian bloody nonsense. The referendum was advisory, and honouring it requires only considering the advice given. We have considered it for nearly three years and concluded that it was stupid and unworkable advice and to be roundly rejected.
So you're saying that the referendum was basically ill-founded. I agree, but once its taken place then you can't dismiss it so lightly.
It may have been advisory, but if you drag 35m people out for a vote then that advice counts.
Did you see the documentary on BBC4 earlier tonight?
The Fleetwood Mac doc ?
No, but I'll look it up on the iplayer.
It was on Sky Arts.
One of the most interesting things of the many about PG, when Fleetwood Mac started getting big and buying sports cars, spending money lavishly, he suggested they give most of their earnings to starving African kids instead (he actually wanted to deliver Cheese & Tomato sandwiches to them personally), but Mick Fleetwood stopped the rest of them doing it... on judgement day, will he be considered the mad one?
There's been another Fleetwood Mac program on BBC4 tonight:
Did you see the documentary on BBC4 earlier tonight?
The Fleetwood Mac doc ?
No, but I'll look it up on the iplayer.
It was on Sky Arts.
One of the most interesting things of the many about PG, when Fleetwood Mac started getting big and buying sports cars, spending money lavishly, he suggested they give most of their earnings to starving African kids instead (he actually wanted to deliver Cheese & Tomato sandwiches to them personally), but Mick Fleetwood stopped the rest of them doing it... on judgement day, will he be considered the mad one?
There's been another Fleetwood Mac program on BBC4 tonight:
Oh right, I think I’ve seen that one also. The Peter Green story is much better. I think that BBC one is just talking heads from nowadays. They did a great one called ‘Don’t Stop’ though.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
Fustian bloody nonsense. The referendum was advisory, and honouring it requires only considering the advice given. We have considered it for nearly three years and concluded that it was stupid and unworkable advice and to be roundly rejected.
That’s a small party. My local CLP in a safe Tory seat is much bigger.
Not all members will have attended but we know Labour has almost double the membership of the Tories but certainly Labour voters are not double the number of Tory voters (opposition parties often have more members than the governing party)
Fustian bloody nonsense. The referendum was advisory, and honouring it requires only considering the advice given. We have considered it for nearly three years and concluded that it was stupid and unworkable advice and to be roundly rejected.
So people should not have believed all those political leaders when they said the result would be enacted. Including practically everyone who is now claiming it should be overturned.
It is no wonder Parliamentary democracy is now scorned. If we do not leave then it has failed us utterly and deserves to go the way of every other failed political ideology.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Nonetheless you are duty bound to honour the democratic process.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
The blame for the Democratic process not been honoured should go to the Leavers who failed to articulate what leave was going to be before people voted. Th I
Sort of like LibDems with their tuition fees plans ?
That’s a small party. My local CLP in a safe Tory seat is much bigger.
Not all members will have attended but we know Labour has almost double the membership of the Tories but certainly Labour voters are not double the number of Tory voters (opposition parties often have more members than the governing party)
All true, and yet the core of the Tory strength is quite hollow. What happened to Labour in Scotland might just happen to Tory safe seats. Happy days.
Fustian bloody nonsense. The referendum was advisory, and honouring it requires only considering the advice given. We have considered it for nearly three years and concluded that it was stupid and unworkable advice and to be roundly rejected.
So people should not have believed all those political leaders when they said the result would be enacted. Including practically everyone who is now claiming it should be overturned.
It is no wonder Parliamentary democracy is now scorned. If we do not leave then it has failed us utterly and deserves to go the way of every other failed political ideology.
They look like door to door salesmen who’ve scarpered with an old lady’s savings and think they’re innocent because she signed them away without reading the small print
A shame because he's an excellent parliamentarian, regardless of whether one agrees with his views or not.
He is an excellent Parliamentarian but he has completely betrayed his party, the public's decision and no longer stands for what the party stands for. It has been party policy for 6 years roughly now that the public would decide our future and 3 years now since they did - he's stood on not one but 2 manifestos pledging to honour that. If he's unwilling to respect the party and the public then sadly he should go.
From a purely party-political point of view, the best thing for the Conservative Party now would be to engineer a General Election as soon as possible and hope to lose it (this second bit shouldn't be hard). This would hand the entire pile of steaming ordure over to Labour, or even better an unholy alliance of Labour, the LibDems and (best of all, from the Tories' point of view) the SNP, who aren't exactly friends with Labour. The ensuing chaos would also be quite useful in taking down Corbynism for ever.
Whether this is best for the country is debatable; high-risk, certainly.
Dunno though, Corbyn runs on a Cameronesque renegotiation+referendum, renegotiation unexpectedly turns up nothing good, Tories and Farage denounce it as not brexit, half the Leave vote boycotts it, Remain wins, Corbyn spends a couple of terms nationalizing some of the means of production or whatever which, although not economically optimal, is much better for the economy than brexit and way, way less chaotic than the current thing.
From a purely party-political point of view, the best thing for the Conservative Party now would be to engineer a General Election as soon as possible and hope to lose it (this second bit shouldn't be hard). This would hand the entire pile of steaming ordure over to Labour, or even better an unholy alliance of Labour, the LibDems and (best of all, from the Tories' point of view) the SNP, who aren't exactly friends with Labour. The ensuing chaos would also be quite useful in taking down Corbynism for ever.
Whether this is best for the country is debatable; high-risk, certainly.
Dunno though, Corbyn runs on a Cameronesque renegotiation+referendum, renegotiation unexpectedly turns up nothing good, Tories and Farage denounce it as not brexit, half the Leave vote boycotts it, Remain wins, Corbyn spends a couple of terms nationalizing some of the means of production or whatever which, although not economically optimal, is much better for the economy than brexit and way, way less chaotic than the current thing.
That’s a small party. My local CLP in a safe Tory seat is much bigger.
Not all members will have attended but we know Labour has almost double the membership of the Tories but certainly Labour voters are not double the number of Tory voters (opposition parties often have more members than the governing party)
All true, and yet the core of the Tory strength is quite hollow. What happened to Labour in Scotland might just happen to Tory safe seats. Happy days.
Yes - the country is crying out for old school marxist economics and anti semitism
The mad dogs are out already. One of the few articulate and sane Tories to emerge from this fiasco with credit
Being articulate doesnt mean someone gets credit. Liking their goal doesnt either. Grieve's fanaticism and willingness to risk everything to achieve his goals make him an erudite Steve Baker.
From a purely party-political point of view, the best thing for the Conservative Party now would be to engineer a General Election as soon as possible and hope to lose it (this second bit shouldn't be hard). This would hand the entire pile of steaming ordure over to Labour, or even better an unholy alliance of Labour, the LibDems and (best of all, from the Tories' point of view) the SNP, who aren't exactly friends with Labour. The ensuing chaos would also be quite useful in taking down Corbynism for ever.
Whether this is best for the country is debatable; high-risk, certainly.
Dunno though, Corbyn runs on a Cameronesque renegotiation+referendum, renegotiation unexpectedly turns up nothing good, Tories and Farage denounce it as not brexit, half the Leave vote boycotts it, Remain wins, Corbyn spends a couple of terms nationalizing some of the means of production or whatever which, although not economically optimal, is much better for the economy than brexit and way, way less chaotic than the current thing.
The Tories would be led by a Leaver like Raab or Boris most likely while Labour was tied down by the SNP and LDs so that would limit the scope of their socialism
From a purely party-political point of view, the best thing for the Conservative Party now would be to engineer a General Election as soon as possible and hope to lose it (this second bit shouldn't be hard). This would hand the entire pile of steaming ordure over to Labour, or even better an unholy alliance of Labour, the LibDems and (best of all, from the Tories' point of view) the SNP, who aren't exactly friends with Labour. The ensuing chaos would also be quite useful in taking down Corbynism for ever.
Whether this is best for the country is debatable; high-risk, certainly.
That’s a small party. My local CLP in a safe Tory seat is much bigger.
Not all members will have attended but we know Labour has almost double the membership of the Tories but certainly Labour voters are not double the number of Tory voters (opposition parties often have more members than the governing party)
All true, and yet the core of the Tory strength is quite hollow. What happened to Labour in Scotland might just happen to Tory safe seats. Happy days.
Only if the Tories revoke Brexit, provided the Tories stick to Brexit and Leaving the EU that won't happen.
Labour were crushed in Scotland as Yes voting areas like Glasgow which were safe Labour and Yes voting Labour voters turned on the party with a vengeance after they backed No to Independence and moved en masse to the SNP. The same would only happen to the Tories if they backed BINO now or revoke Art 50 and their Leave seats and Leave voters then moved en masse to Farage's new Brexit Party or UKIP
That’s a small party. My local CLP in a safe Tory seat is much bigger.
Not all members will have attended but we know Labour has almost double the membership of the Tories but certainly Labour voters are not double the number of Tory voters (opposition parties often have more members than the governing party)
All true, and yet the core of the Tory strength is quite hollow. What happened to Labour in Scotland might just happen to Tory safe seats. Happy days.
Yes - the country is crying out for old school marxist economics and anti semitism
Speaking as a neoliberal, I'd take that over the current thing.
Personally I think this new wheeze of deselecting Tory MPs who have repeatedly defied three-line whips is an excellent one. About another 93 to go.
Considering the line to take during the election was "No deal is better than a bad deal" it is entirely reasonable to reject this bad deal. May has betrayed her own commitments not the ERG.
That’s a small party. My local CLP in a safe Tory seat is much bigger.
Not all members will have attended but we know Labour has almost double the membership of the Tories but certainly Labour voters are not double the number of Tory voters (opposition parties often have more members than the governing party)
All true, and yet the core of the Tory strength is quite hollow. What happened to Labour in Scotland might just happen to Tory safe seats. Happy days.
Yes - the country is crying out for old school marxist economics and anti semitism
Speaking as a neoliberal, I'd take that over the current thing.
A shame because he's an excellent parliamentarian, regardless of whether one agrees with his views or not.
He is an excellent Parliamentarian but he has completely betrayed his party, the public's decision and no longer stands for what the party stands for. It has been party policy for 6 years roughly now that the public would decide our future and 3 years now since they did - he's stood on not one but 2 manifestos pledging to honour that. If he's unwilling to respect the party and the public then sadly he should go.
You sound like a Corbynista or some of the hard Left in the early 1980’s when sensible Labour MPs were being threatened with deselection.
I think Grieve being turfed out is a great shame, unpopular as this may make me on this forum. The Tories are turning themselves into a nasty sect - nationalistic (not patriotic), xenophobic, anti-business, closed-minded, illiberal and obsessed with some sort of purist theoretical Brexit rather than a pragmatic what-works approach. They are not conserving anything; their behaviour is utterly destructive.
Given how much I loathe Corbyn and what he stands for - and I know plenty like me - my vote ought to be up for grabs. Yet I would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for a Tory party which embraces unpleasant morons like Mark Francois and Steve Baker, blustering lying philanderers like Johnson and feeble-minded incompetents like IDS and Dominic Raab and turns its back on people like Grieve, one of the more thoughtful MPs in Parliament and a very fine Attorney-General.
Personally I think this new wheeze of deselecting Tory MPs who have repeatedly defied three-line whips is an excellent one. About another 93 to go.
Considering the line to take during the election was "No deal is better than a bad deal" it is entirely reasonable to reject this bad deal. May has betrayed her own commitments not the ERG.
Yes, I clearly remember Boris, Steve Baker, IDS etc saying during the referendum that we'd be crashing out in chaos with tariffs imposed on Welsh lamb, British fisherman unable to land their catch, car manufacturing supply chains wrecked, and free-trade deals with 70 non-EU countries being terminated overnight. Admittedly I can't quite find the clips on-line now, but that must be because the Deep State has deleted them.
A shame because he's an excellent parliamentarian, regardless of whether one agrees with his views or not.
He is an excellent Parliamentarian but he has completely betrayed his party, the public's decision and no longer stands for what the party stands for. It has been party policy for 6 years roughly now that the public would decide our future and 3 years now since they did - he's stood on not one but 2 manifestos pledging to honour that. If he's unwilling to respect the party and the public then sadly he should go.
You sound like a Corbynista or some of the hard Left in the early 1980’s when sensible Labour MPs were being threatened with deselection.
I think Grieve being turfed out is a great shame, unpopular as this may make me on this forum. The Tories are turning themselves into a nasty sect - nationalistic (not patriotic), xenophobic, anti-business, closed-minded, illiberal and obsessed with some sort of purist theoretical Brexit rather than a pragmatic what-works approach. They arenot conserving anything; their behaviour is utterly destructive.
Given how much I loathe Corbyn and what he stands for - and I know plenty like me - my vote ought to be up for grabs. Yet I would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for a Tory party which embraces unpleasant morons like Mark Francois and Steve Baker, blustering lying philanderers like Johnson and feeble-minded incompetents like IDS and Dominic Raab and turns its back on people like Grieve, one of the more thoughtful MPs in Parliament and a very fine Attorney-General.
That’s a small party. My local CLP in a safe Tory seat is much bigger.
Not all members will have attended but we know Labour has almost double the membership of the Tories but certainly Labour voters are not double the number of Tory voters (opposition parties often have more members than the governing party)
All true, and yet the core of the Tory strength is quite hollow. What happened to Labour in Scotland might just happen to Tory safe seats. Happy days.
Yes - the country is crying out for old school marxist economics and anti semitism
Speaking as a neoliberal, I'd take that over the current thing.
A shame because he's an excellent parliamentarian, regardless of whether one agrees with his views or not.
He is an excellent Parliamentarian but he has completely betrayed his party, the public's decision and no longer stands for what the party stands for. It has been party policy for 6 years roughly now that the public would decide our future and 3 years now since they did - he's stood on not one but 2 manifestos pledging to honour that. If he's unwilling to respect the party and the public then sadly he should go.
You sound like a Corbynista or some of the hard Left in the early 1980’s when sensible Labour MPs were being threatened with deselection.
I think Grieve being turfed out is a great shame, unpopular as this may make me on this forum. The Tories are turning themselves into a nasty sect - nationalistic (not patriotic), xenophobic, anti-business, closed-minded, illiberal and obsessed with some sort of purist theoretical Brexit rather than a pragmatic what-works approach. They arenot conserving anything; their behaviour is utterly destructive.
Given how much I loathe Corbyn and what he stands for - and I know plenty like me - my vote ought to be up for grabs. Yet I would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for a Tory party which embraces unpleasant morons like Mark Francois and Steve Baker, blustering lying philanderers like Johnson and feeble-minded incompetents like IDS and Dominic Raab and turns its back on people like Grieve, one of the more thoughtful MPs in Parliament and a very fine Attorney-General.
You are an obvious CUK so stop whinging and sign up, they are looking for new members and I am sure would welcome your support
Can we please play that at full volume outside Mark Francois' bedroom tonight?
Wonderful piece of music . Inspiring and uplifting . So the Union Jack continues to flutter over Brussels for a little longer .
The funny thing about the EU beforehand people seemed reluctant to talk about their support for it in more emotional terms . We didn’t see these rallies , it was a very transactional view , cold and just economic based.
UK politicians on the Remain side were mostly reluctant to show a warmth towards it almost embarrassed to do so .
Now with the UK on its way out only then do we see this more passionate argument for it . As the saying goes you only appreciate something when you’re about to lose it or when it’s gone.
A shame because he's an excellent parliamentarian, regardless of whether one agrees with his views or not.
He is an excellent Parliamentarian but he has completely betrayed his party, the public's decision and no longer stands for what the party stands for. It has been party policy for 6 years roughly now that the public would decide our future and 3 years now since they did - he's stood on not one but 2 manifestos pledging to honour that. If he's unwilling to respect the party and the public then sadly he should go.
You sound like a Corbynista or some of the hard Left in the early 1980’s when sensible Labour MPs were being threatened with deselection.
I think Grieve being turfed out is a great shame, unpopular as this may make me on this forum. The Tories are turning themselves into a nasty sect - nationalistic (not patriotic), xenophobic, anti-business, closed-minded, illiberal and obsessed with some sort of purist theoretical Brexit rather than a pragmatic what-works approach. They arenot conserving anything; their behaviour is utterly destructive.
Given how much I loathe Corbyn and what he stands for - and I know plenty like me - my vote ought to be up for grabs. Yet I would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for a Tory party which embraces unpleasant morons like Mark Francois and Steve Baker, blustering lying philanderers like Johnson and feeble-minded incompetents like IDS and Dominic Raab and turns its back on people like Grieve, one of the more thoughtful MPs in Parliament and a very fine Attorney-General.
You are an obvious CUK so stop whinging and sign up, they are looking for new members and I am sure would welcome your support
The voice of the new Tory party to a possible voter: Fuck off.
Watching the Tories being destroyed at the next GE will be one of the few good things to come out of this sorry mess.
Edited: not just one voter. There are 5 in our household, none of which will be going to the Tories for the foreseeable future. They will likely be pretty evenly divided between the Lib Dems and the Greens.
I mean, in practice we're only talking about failing to crack down on odious party members and a legitimate but unhealthily intense opposition to the government of Israel, it's not like Corbyn's going to direct Keir Starmer to sort out the logistics for the Final Solution.
A shame because he's an excellent parliamentarian, regardless of whether one agrees with his views or not.
He is an excellent Parliamentarian but he has completely betrayed his party, the public's decision and no longer stands for what the party stands for. It has been party policy for 6 years roughly now that the public would decide our future and 3 years now since they did - he's stood on not one but 2 manifestos pledging to honour that. If he's unwilling to respect the party and the public then sadly he should go.
You sound like a Corbynista or some of the hard Left in the early 1980’s when sensible Labour MPs were being threatened with deselection.
I think Grieve being turfed out is a great shame, unpopular as this may make me on this forum. The Tories are turning themselves into a nasty sect - nationalistic (not patriotic), xenophobic, anti-business, closed-minded, illiberal and obsessed with some sort of purist theoretical Brexit rather than a pragmatic what-works approach. They arenot conserving anything; their behaviour is utterly destructive.
Given how much I loathe Corbyn and what he stands for - and I know plenty like me - my vote ought to be up for grabs. Yet I would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for a Tory party which embraces unpleasant morons like Mark Francois and Steve Baker, blustering lying philanderers like Johnson and feeble-minded incompetents like IDS and Dominic Raab and turns its back on people like Grieve, one of the more thoughtful MPs in Parliament and a very fine Attorney-General.
You are an obvious CUK so stop whinging and sign up, they are looking for new members and I am sure would welcome your support
The voice of the new Tory party to a possible voter: Fuck off.
Watching the Tories being destroyed at the next GE will be one of the few good things to come out of this sorry mess.
From fuck business, it’s not that far to fuck the voters.
Comments
The SNP are keen on second votes for some reason.
What you want can't enter into that - your wants in this must by definition have been surrendered when you voted.
No, but I'll look it up on the iplayer.
"OK, no problem!"
"Mothe...er, what? That wasn't in the script!"
We’ve not left yet.
edit: oh wait, there isn't a GE tonight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_-KoBiBG0
Please reflect rather than try to argue.
I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TmUP1StPf0
If a general election or referendum the UK would also participate in the EU elections but at a later date than the rest of the EU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuukxNuusc
However it is all of our jobs to deliver on the vote. That's what we said when we voted. Thus to say that the Leavers have messed up the delivery on the Brexit vote isn't right - for good or bad we've all messed up on our promise to ourselves. It's not good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V64HV4gbcUg
Anyway, while we might not (yet) have the results we wanted tonight, surely tonight's a good time to be grateful for what we do have.
Since the referendum I've acquired two lovely mini-Drutts and (despite...), a nicer job, and a faster car. Wait...
GRIEVE DESELECTED. or loses vonc at least
Whether this is best for the country is debatable; high-risk, certainly.
One of the most interesting things of the many about PG, when Fleetwood Mac started getting big and buying sports cars, spending money lavishly, he suggested they give most of their earnings to starving African kids instead (he actually wanted to deliver Cheese & Tomato sandwiches to them personally), but Mick Fleetwood stopped the rest of them doing it... on judgement day, will he be considered the mad one?
It may have been advisory, but if you drag 35m people out for a vote then that advice counts.
https://howmanydaystill.com/its/brexit-6
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv-programme/e/hf2njs/a-musical-history--s1-e3-fleetwood-mac-a-musical-history/
It is no wonder Parliamentary democracy is now scorned. If we do not leave then it has failed us utterly and deserves to go the way of every other failed political ideology.
He should join the Cuks before he is pushed.
Compare with Ken Clarke.
Labour were crushed in Scotland as Yes voting areas like Glasgow which were safe Labour and Yes voting Labour voters turned on the party with a vengeance after they backed No to Independence and moved en masse to the SNP. The same would only happen to the Tories if they backed BINO now or revoke Art 50 and their Leave seats and Leave voters then moved en masse to Farage's new Brexit Party or UKIP
Interesting essay:
"The secrets of the ruling class
Privilege means more than entitlement, it's a freemasonry
Alex Renton"
https://unherd.com/2019/03/the-secrets-of-the-ruling-class
I think Grieve being turfed out is a great shame, unpopular as this may make me on this forum. The Tories are turning themselves into a nasty sect - nationalistic (not patriotic), xenophobic, anti-business, closed-minded, illiberal and obsessed with some sort of purist theoretical Brexit rather than a pragmatic what-works approach. They are not conserving anything; their behaviour is utterly destructive.
Given how much I loathe Corbyn and what he stands for - and I know plenty like me - my vote ought to be up for grabs. Yet I would rather stick pins in my eyes than vote for a Tory party which embraces unpleasant morons like Mark Francois and Steve Baker, blustering lying philanderers like Johnson and feeble-minded incompetents like IDS and Dominic Raab and turns its back on people like Grieve, one of the more thoughtful MPs in Parliament and a very fine Attorney-General.
FPTP + two main parties run by their lunatic members doesn't make for good choices.
The funny thing about the EU beforehand people seemed reluctant to talk about their support for it in more emotional terms . We didn’t see these rallies , it was a very transactional view , cold and just economic based.
UK politicians on the Remain side were mostly reluctant to show a warmth towards it almost embarrassed to do so .
Now with the UK on its way out only then do we see this more passionate argument for it . As the saying goes you only appreciate something when you’re about to lose it or when it’s gone.
Watching the Tories being destroyed at the next GE will be one of the few good things to come out of this sorry mess.
Edited: not just one voter. There are 5 in our household, none of which will be going to the Tories for the foreseeable future. They will likely be pretty evenly divided between the Lib Dems and the Greens.
I mean, in practice we're only talking about failing to crack down on odious party members and a legitimate but unhealthily intense opposition to the government of Israel, it's not like Corbyn's going to direct Keir Starmer to sort out the logistics for the Final Solution.
Or
The 1980 Whicker's World theme tune by - I shit you not - Andrew Lloyd Webber
Or
The 1988 Firstborn theme tune by - yes, really - Hans Zimmer