So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
I'm of the view that May will go for a general election. It buys time from the EU and provides the opportunity to clear the decks. She might end up walking the plank or sinking the Corbyn fleet but at least it will be the PM taking back an element of control from the storm.
Peter Henessy on Any Questions this evening pointed out that governments do not win single-issue general elections.
Son of one of Britain's most prominent capitalists, Etonian, married the heiress to the Rothschild banking dynasty, financier in his own right - complains about the establishment.
Attacking the messenger rather the message is always a sign of intellectual bankruptcy
I have a hunch that May will go for no deal, rather than take on her right wing. She might try another MV first, but will prefer no deal over compromise.
She and the Tories are finished in terms of this administration, what ever they do. May must be the most incompetent PM we have ever had the misfortune to have. You have to laugh! She said she was a tough negotiator - outcome she was the reverse of the iron lady. She maybe right in that she is a bloody difficult women but that has not worked to her advantage either! She makes the worst decisions on every occasion. Offered a choice she vacillates and then mangers to strategically weaken herself and her Government! It baffles me that people still support her, she is appalling.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
I'm of the view that May will go for a general election. It buys time from the EU and provides the opportunity to clear the decks. She might end up walking the plank or sinking the Corbyn fleet but at least it will be the PM taking back an element of control from the storm.
So euro elections and long extension or No Deal and catyclism?
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
You've got no interest in making Brexit work. Many people in this country now have no interest in making the EU work. How the flying feckity doodah do we reconcile that?
Yes it’s a complete disaster. I’ve been saying that for nearly three years. Glad you’re catching on.
' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals ... '
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
This isn't fair. Leavers may well have made insufficient effort, but non-Leavers are equally guilty. You, yourself, are one of the most intransigent remainers. How much effort did you make?
In what way am I intransigent? I would have voted for the deal if I had a choice. I might still get the opportunity.
I haven’t concealed my disgust for the antics of Leavers, but those have been pretty contemptible, as I’m sure you’ll accept. And why should Remainers make any effort to forge a consensus for a policy they think is malign and foolish?
Sorry - perhaps I haven't kept up with developments. You were once-upon-a-time the most intransigent of remainers - at least based on reading of your views.
Remainers need to recognise the decision. You'd have to confess that all on the remain side actively see that as a thing, and very rarely wish to acknowledge any validity in the decision.
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
CU pledge -> Exit -> New Leader -> No CU -> General Election
That's a possibility if the Conservatives do some 'clever thinking' and less posturing.
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
Things are getting steadily worse because the public voted to leave the EU and a remainer Parliament is doing everything it can to prevent us leaving the EU.
I don't think you can solely blame the Remainers - there are a fair few Leavers doing their best to ensure we don't Brexit.
Mays deal against a CU will win . Unless the CU comes with a second vote , the TIG . Lib Dems , PC and SNP will abstain . Mays deal will win but probably fail to get a proper majority.
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
Things are getting steadily worse because the public voted to leave the EU and a remainer Parliament is doing everything it can to prevent us leaving the EU.
People elected that parliament after May called an election after saying the other parties were trying to stop Brexit. You can’t say it’s undemocratic.
You can when 86% of votes were cast for parties pledged to implement Brexit....
I wish you would not lump votes together like that. I know many people who voted Tory or Labour at the last election who do not support Brexit. I was one of them who voted Tory to keep Corbyn out. I won't be making the same mistake again ….
Yes. No deal. In 14 days. With fuck all prep. And maximum disruption. The opposite of what the Confederation of British Industry and British Chambers of Commerce want.
That's how the Tories win a majority...
The Telegraph becam the ERGgraph many moons ago tbh.
OMG no more imminent election talk from the media .
More nonsense. Any election won’t happen until after Brexit . So the Tories who are more reliant on Leavers are going to go to the country after having failed to deliver Brexit . Exactly what will the manifesto say , Mays deal ! After the ERG have spent months convincing Leavers her deal is rubbish and making many Leavers no dealers will the manifesto say no deal .
Are they looking to get completely wiped out in cities. They will also get wiped out in Scotland . The Tories are screwed , Labour will suffer some damage but even in Leave seats the majority of Labour voters were Remainers .
May threatening an election and the Tories actually voting for it is a fantasy.
The impeccable logic of the bit in bold can be applied just as well to demonstrate the absurdity of holding a Referendum of May's Deal vs Remain.
A viable Referendum must have a Deal that is supported by this Parliament. But if it is supported by this Parliament there is no need for a Referendum.
Unless - a General Election is called and Labour win it with the specific offer of first re-negotiating a new Deal and then requiring a confirmatory Referendum on it.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
I’ll sell a million and buy at zero
The numbers aren't the point. The difference is the behaviour. Whose side do you want to be on. The tattooed yobs (plus Trump and Putin)?
Its genuinely mystifying to me how a vaguely intelligent person can't see how stupifyingly cretinous it is to base a political decision on whether 'the tatooed yobs' belong to the other side. What sort of imbeciles have we bred?
You don't think people won't look at the footage of Saturday's remain march and tonight's leave protest and draw their own conclusions? Obviously you can't judge all leavers by tonight's crowd but it's not doing much to dispel the stereotype although I am personally quite happy for Tommy Robinson to become the poster boy for leave!.
A Leave supporter murdered Jo Cox, and a week or two later Leave still won
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
That depends upon what the consequences of a No Deal would be.
I am not sanguine about that when we have Fox and Grayling in two vital positions, the government barely functioning as it is and the economic cycle drawing to its end.
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
Things are getting steadily worse because the public voted to leave the EU and a remainer Parliament is doing everything it can to prevent us leaving the EU.
I don't think you can solely blame the Remainers - there are a fair few Leavers doing their best to ensure we don't Brexit.
Exactly. The six from the government Remain side who voted against are balanced off by the five Labour leavers who backed the government. It was the ERG rebels and the DUP who lost the vote.
We're going through the seven stages. Was Brexit Crisis, then Brexit Chaos, now Brexit Fiasco. The usual thing with fiascos is to put a stop to them.
(And by the way I am getting REALLY irritated with the oversensitive text input system on my phone that has decided "Brexit" is an obscene word and keeps changing it to something else when I type it in. Every second word I type is Brexit.)
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
This isn't fair. Leavers may well have made insufficient effort, but non-Leavers are equally guilty. You, yourself, are one of the most intransigent remainers. How much effort did you make?
In what way am I intransigent? I would have voted for the deal if I had a choice. I might still get the opportunity.
I haven’t concealed my disgust for the antics of Leavers, but those have been pretty contemptible, as I’m sure you’ll accept. And why should Remainers make any effort to forge a consensus for a policy they think is malign and foolish?
Sorry - perhaps I haven't kept up with developments. You were once-upon-a-time the most intransigent of remainers - at least based on reading of your views.
Remainers need to recognise the decision. You'd have to confess that all on the remain side actively see that as a thing, and very rarely wish to acknowledge any validity in the decision.
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
You've got no interest in making Brexit work. Many people in this country now have no interest in making the EU work. How the flying feckity doodah do we reconcile that?
Yes it’s a complete disaster. I’ve been saying that for nearly three years. Glad you’re catching on.
' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals ... '
And out in the real world the City hasn't relocated to Frankfurt nor have the crops rotted in the fields.
Yep. As that article makes abundantly clear, whatever slight remnants of credibility Meeks had left from the run up to the referendum have evaporated completely as a result of his deranged mindset ever since.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
I’ll sell a million and buy at zero
The numbers aren't the point. The difference is the behaviour. Whose side do you want to be on. The tattooed yobs (plus Trump and Putin)?
Its genuinely mystifying to me how a vaguely intelligent person can't see how stupifyingly cretinous it is to base a political decision on whether 'the tatooed yobs' belong to the other side. What sort of imbeciles have we bred?
You don't think people won't look at the footage of Saturday's remain march and tonight's leave protest and draw their own conclusions? Obviously you can't judge all leavers by tonight's crowd but it's not doing much to dispel the stereotype although I am personally quite happy for Tommy Robinson to become the poster boy for leave!.
A Leave supporter murdered Jo Cox, and a week or two later Leave still won
That's OK then
It wasn’t ok, but it shows that even the most horrific act isn’t enough to make voters feel guilty enough by association to change their mind. Unless you think Leave would have won by even more had it not happened I suppose.
Mays deal against a CU will win . Unless the CU comes with a second vote , the TIG . Lib Dems , PC and SNP will abstain . Mays deal will win but probably fail to get a proper majority.
I reckon it could be close. The SNP, TIG and LDs + Others will plump for CU in a Mays Deal v CU but on the other side the Francois and the Bakers will plump for the May deal if it's between the two.
What are the Leavers playing at? I don't get it. Sure, they said Brexit would be a cakewalk to secure the win, but surely no one sane actually believed that. Having won they should have emphasized the sheer volume of work and commitment needed to forge a new relationship - sold it as a kind of test of national spunk. Instead they just want to flounce. Why is that?
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
That depends upon what the consequences of a No Deal would be.
I am not sanguine about that when we have Fox and Grayling in two vital positions, the government barely functioning as it is and the economic cycle drawing to its end.
I am not worried about Fox. Grayling however is simply unfit for office - unless it’s a janitor somewhere.
What are the Leavers playing at? I don't get it. Sure, they said Brexit would be a cakewalk to secure the win, but surely no one sane actually believed that. Having won they should have emphasized the sheer volume of work and commitment needed to forge a new relationship - sold it as a kind of test of national spunk. Instead they just want to flounce. Why is that?
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
This isn't fair. Leavers may well have made insufficient effort, but non-Leavers are equally guilty. You, yourself, are one of the most intransigent remainers. How much effort did you make?
In what way am I intransigent? I would have voted for the deal if I had a choice. I might still get the opportunity.
I haven’t concealed my disgust for the antics of Leavers, but those have been pretty contemptible, as I’m sure you’ll accept. And why should Remainers make any effort to forge a consensus for a policy they think is malign and foolish?
Sorry - perhaps I haven't kept up with developments. You were once-upon-a-time the most intransigent of remainers - at least based on reading of your views.
Remainers need to recognise the decision. You'd have to confess that all on the remain side actively see that as a thing, and very rarely wish to acknowledge any validity in the decision.
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
Meeks is an EU fanatic. Referendums only count for something if they yield the right result in EU land. There's plenty of precedent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
This isn't fair. Leavers may well have made insufficient effort, but non-Leavers are equally guilty. You, yourself, are one of the most intransigent remainers. How much effort did you make?
In what way am I intransigent? I would have voted for the deal if I had a choice. I might still get the opportunity.
I haven’t concealed my disgust for the antics of Leavers, but those have been pretty contemptible, as I’m sure you’ll accept. And why should Remainers make any effort to forge a consensus for a policy they think is malign and foolish?
Sorry - perhaps I haven't kept up with developments. You were once-upon-a-time the most intransigent of remainers - at least based on reading of your views.
Remainers need to recognise the decision. You'd have to confess that all on the remain side actively see that as a thing, and very rarely wish to acknowledge any validity in the decision.
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
Mays deal against a CU will win . Unless the CU comes with a second vote , the TIG . Lib Dems , PC and SNP will abstain . Mays deal will win but probably fail to get a proper majority.
I reckon it could be close. The SNP, TIG and LDs + Others will plump for CU in a Mays Deal v CU but on the other side the Francois and the Bakers will plump for the May deal if it's between the two.
I think CU will squeak it because there is more latent support within the Tories for a softer Brexit than within Labour for a less soft one.
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
That's the key point. If the benefits of leaving were obvious, Leavers would be showing the way and erstwhile Remainers would be keeping very quiet, if not already signed up. Neither has happened and the recriminations simply reflect the failure that this project was always going to be.
What are the Leavers playing at? I don't get it. Sure, they said Brexit would be a cakewalk to secure the win, but surely no one sane actually believed that. Having won they should have emphasized the sheer volume of work and commitment needed to forge a new relationship - sold it as a kind of test of national spunk. Instead they just want to flounce. Why is that?
They have spent their lives in safe seats, and never had to chase voters on polling day after 9pm. When it is always neck and neck and every vote could make the difference,
OMG no more imminent election talk from the media .
More nonsense. Any election won’t happen until after Brexit . So the Tories who are more reliant on Leavers are going to go to the country after having failed to deliver Brexit . Exactly what will the manifesto say , Mays deal ! After the ERG have spent months convincing Leavers her deal is rubbish and making many Leavers no dealers will the manifesto say no deal .
Are they looking to get completely wiped out in cities. They will also get wiped out in Scotland . The Tories are screwed , Labour will suffer some damage but even in Leave seats the majority of Labour voters were Remainers .
May threatening an election and the Tories actually voting for it is a fantasy.
The impeccable logic of the bit in bold can be applied just as well to demonstrate the absurdity of holding a Referendum of May's Deal vs Remain.
A viable Referendum must have a Deal that is supported by this Parliament. But if it is supported by this Parliament there is no need for a Referendum.
Unless - a General Election is called and Labour win it with the specific offer of first re-negotiating a new Deal and then requiring a confirmatory Referendum on it.
That works.
The LAB position is still only to have a ref on a Con WA, isn't it? I can't see they'd want to call a referendum that pitted their own deal against their MPs' preference.
I really can't see us leaving at all or at least not in any form that leavers would recognise.
They all look so miserable. The only one's the media ever interview are old crones and even other misrerable old crones woudn't want to identify with them.
The war is lost. Time to regroup under one of the fruitcake leaders and fight a guerilla war for the next couple of decades.
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
Things are getting steadily worse because the public voted to leave the EU and a remainer Parliament is doing everything it can to prevent us leaving the EU.
People elected that parliament after May called an election after saying the other parties were trying to stop Brexit. You can’t say it’s undemocratic.
You can when 86% of votes were cast for parties pledged to implement Brexit....
I wish you would not lump votes together like that. I know many people who voted Tory or Labour at the last election who do not support Brexit. I was one of them who voted Tory to keep Corbyn out. I won't be making the same mistake again ….
It's not really relevant now, anyway. Brexit as a story has moved on considerably in two years. The Tories didn't win majority from the election and have already junked much of their losing manifesto anyway. Labour's paragraph on Brexit is heavily hedged with qualifications and certainly gives them freedom to oppose the government's approach, as would any opposition. There is no story here.
Mays deal against a CU will win . Unless the CU comes with a second vote , the TIG . Lib Dems , PC and SNP will abstain . Mays deal will win but probably fail to get a proper majority.
I reckon it could be close. The SNP, TIG and LDs + Others will plump for CU in a Mays Deal v CU but on the other side the Francois and the Bakers will plump for the May deal if it's between the two.
I think CU will squeak it because there is more latent support within the Tories for a softer Brexit than within Labour for a less soft one.
Softer Brexit seems to the only option that commands a fair degree of cross party support.
Second referendum might make it if May whipped for it, but only the payroll vote would support it, and lots of ministers would resign, unless they were allowed to abstain.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
How does No Deal 'allow us to get on with the rest of our lives? Remainers are furiously anti it, soft Brexiteers are not keen on it, it threatens the Union and might lead to Scottish independence and chaos in Ireland and damages the economy.
Mind you Revoke is no better as the Leave March today suggested it would lead to a surge for a Tommy Robinson dominated UKIP and Farage's new Brexit party and a very angry atmosphere amongst Leave voters.
Soft Brexit of some form is not perfect but it is now the only reasonable compromise
Indeed. I wouldn't dream of associating myself with it.
Leavers need to excise this actively from their movement and the sentiments that drive it. This is not part of what motivates most Leavers.
Tommy Robinson has nothing to do with my movement.
I find him abhorrent.
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
You've got no interest in making Brexit work. Many people in this country now have no interest in making the EU work. How the flying feckity doodah do we reconcile that?
Yes it’s a complete disaster. I’ve been saying that for nearly three years. Glad you’re catching on.
' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals ... '
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
I'm of the view that May will go for a general election. It buys time from the EU and provides the opportunity to clear the decks. She might end up walking the plank or sinking the Corbyn fleet but at least it will be the PM taking back an element of control from the storm.
So euro elections and long extension or No Deal and catyclism?
What will really put the cat amongst the pigeons is if the EU veto any further extension. That's when I think we wills the real panic set in
I know you do. They do not represent you. However...
Some of the language prominent Leavers have used like “traitor” and “saboteur” have not helped one bit. Instead there should have more of an effort to remove them and attract normal folk that may simply disagree with Leave.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
This isn't fair. Leavers may well have made insufficient effort, but non-Leavers are equally guilty. You, yourself, are one of the most intransigent remainers. How much effort did you make?
In what way am I intransigent? I would have voted for the deal if I had a choice. I might still get the opportunity.
I haven’t concealed my disgust for the antics of Leavers, but those have been pretty contemptible, as I’m sure you’ll accept. And why should Remainers make any effort to forge a consensus for a policy they think is malign and foolish?
Sorry - perhaps I haven't kept up with developments. You were once-upon-a-time the most intransigent of remainers - at least based on reading of your views.
Remainers need to recognise the decision. You'd have to confess that all on the remain side actively see that as a thing, and very rarely wish to acknowledge any validity in the decision.
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
So they were willing to vote for it if they thought it would win but wanted to vote against it if they thought it would lose ?
Isn't it that they were willing to vote for it if they thought it would lose but wanted to vote against it if they thought it would win. I think... Perhaps.. Possibly.
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
As mentioned often, that figure is in fact for no-deal, with many other polls showing a significant number of those assume no-deal means to remain. From comparing various polls with other posters, it seems the hard Brexit core is more around 28-30 %.
Never mind “more of an effort”, “an effort” would have been a start. Leavers have constantly pandered to the extremes. Now they wonder why things are getting steadily worse.
This isn't fair. Leavers may well have made insufficient effort, but non-Leavers are equally guilty. You, yourself, are one of the most intransigent remainers. How much effort did you make?
In what way am I intransigent? I would have voted for the deal if I had a choice. I might still get the opportunity.
I haven’t concealed my disgust for the antics of Leavers, but those have been pretty contemptible, as I’m sure you’ll accept. And why should Remainers make any effort to forge a consensus for a policy they think is malign and foolish?
Sorry - perhaps I haven't kept up with developments. You were once-upon-a-time the most intransigent of remainers - at least based on reading of your views.
Remainers need to recognise the decision. You'd have to confess that all on the remain side actively see that as a thing, and very rarely wish to acknowledge any validity in the decision.
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
That depends upon what the consequences of a No Deal would be.
I am not sanguine about that when we have Fox and Grayling in two vital positions, the government barely functioning as it is and the economic cycle drawing to its end.
I am not worried about Fox. Grayling however is simply unfit for office - unless it’s a janitor somewhere.
You want No Deal but you're not worried that Fox is in charge of trade negotiations ?
Do you know how many trade treaties he has so far rolled over ?
They have spent their lives in safe seats, and never had to chase voters on polling day after 9pm. When it is always neck and neck and every vote could make the difference,
Moylan is a particularly unpleasant example of the breed. Pompous, patrician, past parody.
Who's keeping their company? This was a binary choice in a constitutionally vital referendum. Do you like fish and chips? Aren't you worried that they like fish and chips? Do you wear underpants? So do they I'd be willing to bet. The idea that this would have any bearing on anyone's thought process on such an issue fills me with utter despair. We have lived with the EU for 40 odd years. Get a ****ing grip, make an informed decision, and have the strength of mind and character not to be deterred by memes, optics, and any other fluff.
If every racist moron in the country was passionately supportive of a cause that was close to my heart I would at the very least pause for thought.
Unless I was one of them of course.
Then you can't have had any confidence in whether your decision was actually justified. And you could be easily coraled by media portrayals of baskets of ugly deplorables voting the other way. Which is essentially what remainerism is. It is a garment you wear to show how tolerant and right on you are. It's intellectual laziness.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
How does No Deal 'allow us to get on with the rest of our lives? Remainers are furiously anti it, soft Brexiteers are not keen on it, it threatens the Union and might lead to Scottish independence and chaos in Ireland and damages the economy.
Mind you Revoke is no better as the Leave March today suggested it would lead to a surge for a Tommy Robinson dominated UKIP and Farage's new Brexit party and a very angry atmosphere amongst Leave voters.
Soft Brexit of some form is not perfect but it is now the only reasonable compromise
No deal means we stop navel gazing and get on with dealing with life outside the EU and have time to focus on other issues. Uncertainty over what’s happening, paralysis over taking a decision on the form Brexit should take and the all consuming nature of Brexit which prevents any attention being given to anything else all stop with no deal. A trade deal would have been ideal but not without the freedom to regulate our own domestic market as we see fit.
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
As mentioned often, that figure is in fact for no-deal, with many other polls showing a significant number of those assume no-deal means to remain. From comparing various polls with other posters, it seems the hard Brexit core is more around 28-30 %.
And anyway, firstly these people have to be voters and actually turn out, and secondly their locations (how they are distributed) matters rather a lot.
I have always supported the PM although the negotiation was flawed. No deal was not kept properly on the table. She's incredibly resilient, organised and patient. we have to get brexit concluded. We can make a success of it. I also want to get on with highlighting the other good work the government is doing.
'BREXIT’S fate will now be decided by an extraordinary X Factor-style run-off of votes next week – between Theresa May’s deal, a soft Brexit and a second referendum. Instead of dumping her EU agreement, No10 revealed the PM will instead try to bring it back a FOURTH time next week.'
Bercow to rule on Monday only the top 3 options from last Wednesday ie WA plus CU and EUref2 and EEA and CU will be voted for again in the next round of indicative votes with amendments receiving lower support like No Deal and revoke Art 50 and straight EEA eliminated.
May will then wait until 1 option is left and pit her Deal against it in a final runoff amongst MPs
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
That it was a democratic decision is important. That no-one seems able to implement it sensibly makes it a problem. Leavers haven't worked to enable the collective decision either, and I am talking about essentially all Leavers, not just ERG nutcases. People are losing confidence in Brexit. Ultimately responsibility has to lie either with Leavers because it's their project or with Brexit itself because it's intrinsically unworkable.
'BREXIT’S fate will now be decided by an extraordinary X Factor-style run-off of votes next week – between Theresa May’s deal, a soft Brexit and a second referendum. Instead of dumping her EU agreement, No10 revealed the PM will instead try to bring it back a FOURTH time next week.'
Bercow to rule on Monday only the top 3 options from last Wednesday ie WA plus CU and EUref2 and EEA and CU will be voted for again in the next round of indicative votes with amendments receiving lower support like No Deal and revoke Art 50 and straight EEA eliminated.
May will then wait until 1 option is left and pit her Deal against it in a final runoff amongst MPs
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
As mentioned often, that figure is in fact for no-deal, with many other polls showing a significant number of those assume no-deal means to remain. From comparing various polls with other posters, it seems the hard Brexit core is more around 28-30 %.
I'd say the number who want a No Deal Brexit is about 25%. The number who would prefer it to revocation is much higher, but that doesn't mean they want it to happen.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
The LAB position is still only to have a ref on a Con WA, isn't it? I can't see they'd want to call a referendum that pitted their own deal against their MPs' preference.
Yes that's their current position. But Labour's ultimate and only goal is to engineer a general election out of this crisis. What I'm suggesting is that if they are successful in that and if the election comes before we have exited (or agreed the terms to exit) the EU, then Labour will include in their manifesto the offer of a confirmatory referendum on a re-negotiated deal. The reason they will do so is for electoral advantage. The referendum will seek to attract remainers and the re-negotiation effort will seek to avoid a charge that they are betraying leavers or just lazily accepting a tory brexit. That is what I reckon they will do, should a snap 'crisis election' happen, and I think it will work. I think they will win.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
That it was a democratic decision is important. That no-one seems able to implement it sensibly makes it a problem. Leavers haven't worked to enable the collective decision either, and I am talking about essentially all Leavers, not just ERG nutcases. People are losing confidence in Brexit. Ultimately responsibility has to lie either with Leavers because it's their project or with Brexit itself because it's intrinsically unworkable.
Responsibility lies with Parliament which is failing to carry out the instruction the people gave it despite promising the people it would do so.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
That it was a democratic decision is important. That no-one seems able to implement it sensibly makes it a problem. Leavers haven't worked to enable the collective decision either, and I am talking about essentially all Leavers, not just ERG nutcases. People are losing confidence in Brexit. Ultimately responsibility has to lie either with Leavers because it's their project or with Brexit itself because it's intrinsically unworkable.
If Brexit was intrinsically unworkable, every country outside the EU would be a failed state.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
How does No Deal 'allow us to get on with the rest of our lives? Remainers are furiously anti it, soft Brexiteers are not keen on it, it threatens the Union and might lead to Scottish independence and chaos in Ireland and damages the economy.
Mind you Revoke is no better as the Leave March today suggested it would lead to a surge for a Tommy Robinson dominated UKIP and Farage's new Brexit party and a very angry atmosphere amongst Leave voters.
Soft Brexit of some form is not perfect but it is now the only reasonable compromise
No deal means we stop navel gazing and get on with dealing with life outside the EU and have time to focus on other issues. Uncertainty over what’s happening, paralysis over taking a decision on the form Brexit should take and the all consuming nature of Brexit which prevents any attention being given to anything else all stop with no deal. A trade deal would have been ideal but not without the freedom to regulate our own domestic market as we see fit.
Nope, No Deal means we focus even more on Brexit and its consequences
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
That depends upon what the consequences of a No Deal would be.
I am not sanguine about that when we have Fox and Grayling in two vital positions, the government barely functioning as it is and the economic cycle drawing to its end.
I am not worried about Fox. Grayling however is simply unfit for office - unless it’s a janitor somewhere.
This would be the same Dr Fox who sent more trade negotiators to Canberra and Washington DC than to all the countries that the EU had agreements with combined?
If we had rolled over the EU's existing trade agreements by now (or better managed it 12 months ago), then our negotiating position would be much stronger, and the dangers of No Deal would be much less.
Just got back from my local party Association AGM, a strong feeling a 'true Brexiteer' was now needed as the next Tory leader. On a straw poll Raab and Leadsom came a surprising joint top, Boris was second and Hunt third
If that is true, the Tory party is heading for self-destruction.
No, just getting back in touch with its core vote
And out of touch with the majority.
Delicious, isn’t it?
40-45% back hard Brexit in the polls, more than enough to give the Tories most seats under FPTP even if not a majority
As mentioned often, that figure is in fact for no-deal, with many other polls showing a significant number of those assume no-deal means to remain. From comparing various polls with other posters, it seems the hard Brexit core is more around 28-30 %.
I'd say the number who want a No Deal Brexit is about 25%. The number who would prefer it to revocation is much higher, but that doesn't mean they want it to happen.
I'm curious as to when the desire for No Deal began.
Initially it was the competing claims of Hard and Soft Brexit with May's Deal being a pretty hard variety.
But I don't remember much of the nihilistic desire for No Deal Brexit until the last year.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
How does No Deal 'allow us to get on with the rest of our lives? Remainers are furiously anti it, soft Brexiteers are not keen on it, it threatens the Union and might lead to Scottish independence and chaos in Ireland and damages the economy.
Mind you Revoke is no better as the Leave March today suggested it would lead to a surge for a Tommy Robinson dominated UKIP and Farage's new Brexit party and a very angry atmosphere amongst Leave voters.
Soft Brexit of some form is not perfect but it is now the only reasonable compromise
No deal means we stop navel gazing and get on with dealing with life outside the EU and have time to focus on other issues. Uncertainty over what’s happening, paralysis over taking a decision on the form Brexit should take and the all consuming nature of Brexit which prevents any attention being given to anything else all stop with no deal. A trade deal would have been ideal but not without the freedom to regulate our own domestic market as we see fit.
Nope, No Deal means we focus even more on Brexit and its consequences
Why do Remainers need to recognise the decision? Leavers have had their chance to make it work and it’s collapsed into chaos and recrimination. If they want they have abundant evidence to justify a conclusion that it’s a fiasco and should be abandoned. Leavers have given them no reason to work with them.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
And therefore it's pointless Leavers reaching out to remainers, especially you. As you say, you've no interest in making it work nor finding any common ground, and anyone engaging with you on Brexit is wasting their time. You are just a fanatic, no less so than say Steve Baker.
So some Cabinet Ministers want to to vote against the manifesto upon which they were elected. It farcical. They just want to be paid for doing what Brussels tells them.
Its either CU or No Deal or GE.
Decision time.
No deal isn’t desirable but allows us to get on with the rest of our lives. Don’t see how the Tory Party can fight a GE without splitting at the moment. Both more desirable that staying in a customs union.
That depends upon what the consequences of a No Deal would be.
I am not sanguine about that when we have Fox and Grayling in two vital positions, the government barely functioning as it is and the economic cycle drawing to its end.
I am not worried about Fox. Grayling however is simply unfit for office - unless it’s a janitor somewhere.
This would be the same Dr Fox who sent more trade negotiators to Canberra and Washington DC than to all the countries that the EU had agreements with combined?
If we had rolled over the EU's existing trade agreements by now (or better managed it 12 months ago), then our negotiating position would be much stronger, and the dangers of No Deal would be much less.
One thing which makes it difficult to take the No Deal supporters seriously is that they haven't been calling for the sackings of Fox and Grayling.
If they really wanted No Deal then they should have been demanding that the trade and transport roles were under competent control.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
Well because it's a democracy. Because it was a referendum. It has to count for something.
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
That it was a democratic decision is important. That no-one seems able to implement it sensibly makes it a problem. Leavers haven't worked to enable the collective decision either, and I am talking about essentially all Leavers, not just ERG nutcases. People are losing confidence in Brexit. Ultimately responsibility has to lie either with Leavers because it's their project or with Brexit itself because it's intrinsically unworkable.
If Brexit was intrinsically unworkable, every country outside the EU would be a failed state.
Which begs the question as to why we have not to date found a way to make it work.
Really? I don’t see Jeremy Corbyn working to enable the current government. Nor would Labour supporters expect him to.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
What Corbyn does or doesn't do need not detain us.
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
You are entitled to oppose policies you believe to be malign even if a majority voted for them. And so can Remainers.
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Yes to the first. Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
Honour.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
I want to see this malign policy founded on a campaign of xenophobic lies fail. It must fail democratically but fail it should.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.
Rory Stewart on Newsnight says it is now inevitable the UK will contest the European elections unless a clear mandate for an option from the indicative votes
Comments
I hope everyone has a restful night and a great weekend
Our grandson is 10 on Sunday so will have a great family day as it is also Mothers day
Brexit talk is off for the weekend in this household
Good night folks
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/
And out in the real world the City hasn't relocated to Frankfurt nor have the crops rotted in the fields.
Any deal would have done. The mistake was letting MP's vote on it.
A viable Referendum must have a Deal that is supported by this Parliament. But if it is supported by this Parliament there is no need for a Referendum.
Unless - a General Election is called and Labour win it with the specific offer of first re-negotiating a new Deal and then requiring a confirmatory Referendum on it.
That works.
I am not sanguine about that when we have Fox and Grayling in two vital positions, the government barely functioning as it is and the economic cycle drawing to its end.
(And by the way I am getting REALLY irritated with the oversensitive text input system on my phone that has decided "Brexit" is an obscene word and keeps changing it to something else when I type it in. Every second word I type is Brexit.)
We're all supposed to work to enable our collective decisions.
And it turns out that this decision was a duff one that its promoters were clueless how to implement. There’s no requirement for others to try to make a nutty idea work.
Our collective decisions versus (say) the decisions of the collective.
Pay attention comrade!
They all look so miserable. The only one's the media ever interview are old crones and even other misrerable old crones woudn't want to identify with them.
The war is lost. Time to regroup under one of the fruitcake leaders and fight a guerilla war for the next couple of decades.
Second referendum might make it if May whipped for it, but only the payroll vote would support it, and lots of ministers would resign, unless they were allowed to abstain.
Mind you Revoke is no better as the Leave March today suggested it would lead to a surge for a Tommy Robinson dominated UKIP and Farage's new Brexit party and a very angry atmosphere amongst Leave voters.
Soft Brexit of some form is not perfect but it is now the only reasonable compromise
What will really put the cat amongst the pigeons is if the EU veto any further extension. That's when I think we wills the real panic set in
But yes of course really. I really do believe that if duly elected a Labour government should govern our lands. I would fight for their right to do so even though I might disagree with everything they've ever said. 100% really.
Er no, that can't be right...
Leavers’ failure to seek to build bridges with Remainers is both baffling and critical to the current mess. It’s as though they wanted Brexit to fail.
Do you know how many trade treaties he has so far rolled over ?
Surely the only way to take Brexit now is one day at a time.
And hope not too many more of the days end in the cry of "sweet Jesus".
Monday: a good workable approach to put in front of the executive please
We'll worry about the spirit the executive meet that with on Tuesday.
Instead of dumping her EU agreement, No10 revealed the PM will instead try to bring it back a FOURTH time next week.'
Bercow to rule on Monday only the top 3 options from last Wednesday ie WA plus CU and EUref2 and EEA and CU will be voted for again in the next round of indicative votes with amendments receiving lower support like No Deal and revoke Art 50 and straight EEA eliminated.
May will then wait until 1 option is left and pit her Deal against it in a final runoff amongst MPs
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8751724/commons-vote-x-factor-style-brexit-referendum/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Green_(musician)
Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
If we had rolled over the EU's existing trade agreements by now (or better managed it 12 months ago), then our negotiating position would be much stronger, and the dangers of No Deal would be much less.
Initially it was the competing claims of Hard and Soft Brexit with May's Deal being a pretty hard variety.
But I don't remember much of the nihilistic desire for No Deal Brexit until the last year.
Consensus should have been sought on both sides. However its consensus bearing in mind the central fact that there has been a referendum and we decided to leave. (Don't have a referendum ever again obviously)
Leavers haven't failed to deliver Brexit - once the referendum was done it was all of our businesses to do so. WE have failed to deliver Brexit.
Why should Remainers seek consensus for a policy they consider mad and malign and whose supporters label them quislings and traitors? They have no interest in making it work and have been given no reason to help.
And therefore it's pointless Leavers reaching out to remainers, especially you. As you say, you've no interest in making it work nor finding any common ground, and anyone engaging with you on Brexit is wasting their time. You are just a fanatic, no less so than say Steve Baker.
If they really wanted No Deal then they should have been demanding that the trade and transport roles were under competent control.
You'll pay a losing bet, and I'd suggest you might wish to honour a losing referendum.
The rest is unhelpful invective as you know.
Leavers have given Remainers absolutely no reason to rethink: quite the contrary.