"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Attlee's reputation only increases further as more time passes.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Attlee's reputation only increases further as more time passes.
Royally effed up the Partition of India, though.
Fair point, didn't appreciate that was him, somehow thought it was WSC. My oversight.
On a lighter note, it gives me some satisfaction to see the revoke petition has still not reached 6 million.
There's a herd thing there. I really don't know if its the power of social media genuinely percolating themes, or whether it is in fact idiots (who may or may not work in the Kremlin) pumping the numbers. There will of course be a degree of both.
I will say though that should I ever meet someone who signed the revoke petition then I'll hold them forever-more in low esteem. Sort of surprising that I genuinely don't know a single person who has said they'd signed - admittedly I've not asked.
Here's a wild hypothesis: the people whose job it is to weed out fake signatures from petitions, know more about it than you do.
I signed it (once). How I am going to sleep tonight, or any other night, knowing that you hold me in low esteem, God knows.
On a lighter note, it gives me some satisfaction to see the revoke petition has still not reached 6 million.
There's a herd thing there. I really don't know if its the power of social media genuinely percolating themes, or whether it is in fact idiots (who may or may not work in the Kremlin) pumping the numbers. There will of course be a degree of both.
I will say though that should I ever meet someone who signed the revoke petition then I'll hold them forever-more in low esteem. Sort of surprising that I genuinely don't know a single person who has said they'd signed - admittedly I've not asked.
I signed. My wife signed. I've not asked anyone else.
I shall just have to live with your low esteem forever more. I'll try to bear it.
PS I suspect there will be a push to get it over 6m before it is debated on Monday.
I was a bit surprised that my Leave voting secretary signed it. She is sick of the omnishambles.
On a lighter note, it gives me some satisfaction to see the revoke petition has still not reached 6 million.
There's a herd thing there. I really don't know if its the power of social media genuinely percolating themes, or whether it is in fact idiots (who may or may not work in the Kremlin) pumping the numbers. There will of course be a degree of both.
I will say though that should I ever meet someone who signed the revoke petition then I'll hold them forever-more in low esteem. Sort of surprising that I genuinely don't know a single person who has said they'd signed - admittedly I've not asked.
I know lots of people who have signed it - myself included. Almost everyone on my Facebook feed has been promoting it. I'm no more representative than you though as I have almost no friends who are openly pro-Leave.
If only the EU would kick us out. It would implement the referendum, free us from Temainers trying to block it, and allow us to get on with the rest of our lives.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Attlee's reputation only increases further as more time passes.
Royally effed up the Partition of India, though.
Fair point, didn't appreciate that was him, somehow thought it was WSC. My oversight.
Delegated to the Viceroy I think. India did not have direct rule by the PM, and Attlee was always pro-Indian self rule.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Attlee's reputation only increases further as more time passes.
Royally effed up the Partition of India, though.
Fair point, didn't appreciate that was him, somehow thought it was WSC. My oversight.
Delegated to the Viceroy I think. India did not have direct rule by the PM, and Attlee was always pro-Indian self rule.
Astonishing you can wear that and not get arrested (if he wasn't).
Being a c##t is not a crime.
Being a racist c%%t is.
Being against multi-culturalism is not racist.
Well here is the definition
Multiculturalism is a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant.
So being against racial groups having equal rights and opportunities is somehow not racist?
What you are describing is equality under the law not multiculturalism.
Image result for multiculturalismen.wikipedia.org Multiculturalism is a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant. Multiculturalism definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/multiculturalism Feedback About this result
If only the EU would kick us out. It would implement the referendum, free us from Temainers trying to block it, and allow us to get on with the rest of our lives.
Dream on - not happening.
I am not arguing with you.They need us too much and have too many people here ready to do their bidding.
On a lighter note, it gives me some satisfaction to see the revoke petition has still not reached 6 million.
There's a herd thing there. I really don't know if its the power of social media genuinely percolating themes, or whether it is in fact idiots (who may or may not work in the Kremlin) pumping the numbers. There will of course be a degree of both.
I will say though that should I ever meet someone who signed the revoke petition then I'll hold them forever-more in low esteem. Sort of surprising that I genuinely don't know a single person who has said they'd signed - admittedly I've not asked.
I know several, and I think everyone who was going to sign has signed.
But, I’m enjoying revelling in their disappointment that it keeps creeping up to 6 million but never quite gets there.
If only the EU would kick us out. It would implement the referendum, free us from Temainers trying to block it, and allow us to get on with the rest of our lives.
Dream on - not happening.
I am not arguing with you.. They need us too much and have too many people here ready to do their bidding.
Astonishing you can wear that and not get arrested (if he wasn't).
Being a c##t is not a crime.
Being a racist c%%t is.
Being against multi-culturalism is not racist.
Well here is the definition
Multiculturalism is a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant.
So being against racial groups having equal rights and opportunities is somehow not racist?
What you are describing is equality under the law not multiculturalism.
Image result for multiculturalismen.wikipedia.org Multiculturalism is a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant. Multiculturalism definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/multiculturalism Feedback About this result
Culture does NOT equal race. And I'm speaking as someone wot is non-white!
I've not had much time to assimilate all the info about what's been going on today, but my understanding is as follows:
1. The Deal has been defeated for a third time, but May is likely to attempt to bring it back for a fourth. Dead horse flogging to continue ad nauseam. 2. Brexit Day is now scheduled for April 12th, but the effective deadline for Parliament voting for any option that might lead to Brexit with a Withdrawal Agreement is April 9th, because the European Council expects any proposal to arrive with it for consideration no later than the 10th. 3. MPs are going to attempt to find a majority for a way forward again on Monday. If they're still deadlocked after that then it's still theoretically possible that they could settle on something through one or two more rounds of voting, though more likely the remaining week thereafter will be eaten up by mutual recrimination and the attempts of the Government to somehow secure MV4. 4. Therefore, if Parliament doesn't vote for a positive outcome on April Fools' Day that the EU can accept - and I don't see much likelihood of anything other than a Deal vs Remain referendum coming to pass at this stage - then MPs are either going to have to resort to the Revoke panic button (probably on the 10th or the 11th, once any lingering hope of any other possible way out of No Deal is dead,) or they will simply sit there like a complete field of wet lettuces and hand total victory to Andrew Bridgen, Bill Cash and the rest of the diehards.
Or is there anything vital that I'm missing here?
It's a pretty good summing-up, I would say. You also include the revoke panic button that many are forgetting.
So, we have a couple of indicative votes next week. The government decides to ignore them and goes for no deal. There is a lot of howling, but nobody can stop them.
Off topic, the valuation of Lyft (loss-making) and listed today in the US and suggested valuations for Uber strike me as insane. And a bubble in the making.
I fear we are re-embarking on the same old boom and bust cycle of before.
I think we've been in the boom part of the boom and bust cycle for quite a while now*.
* As regards valuations of certain high tech startups
@Barnesian....I know it is not right but when MPs lie and go against a national democratic Vote for their own or Party benefit what do they expect ? That they will be welcomed by the public ?
Can we read anything significant in fact it was brought this week despite destined to fail? Yes we can, look at the groups earlier saying “looking to bring it back this week” and those saying “only back if can win” and you can see which group is now controlling government. Significant because if you get any promises from the other group they are worthless.
If you don’t believe me, just see what happens next. I expect a “managed no deal” putsch
Brexiteers in and out of cabinet, in the party and their supporters in other parties and the media will go for managed no deal.
2.1. No deal. Cash in
I will never cease to be amazed at people who believe they can arrange hundreds of small deals in fourteen days with an entity that doesn't want to deal, and without actually having the power to negotiate any deal at all. It's one thing to believe in unicorns, it's another thing to phone to book the unicorn stadium for unicorn dressage, despite there being no unicorns, no unicorn stadium, no such sport as unicorn dressage, and you don't own a phone.
I thought there’s no point arguing with people who’s not listening. Maybe I was being too belligerent because politics is not logical, doesn’t work logically, you can’t say to anyone ignore what you are being told think it through logically. There no logic to politics just shades of politic.
But then I thought this.
I totally agree transitional arrangements of a managed no deal, the Sectoral mini-deals are not on the table. I totally agree on that.
But will you agree with me that is precisely what we must keep an eye on, that the moment they come out the box (BECAUSE THEY EXIST) and are back on the table it’s clear which way this is going?
Because what you are doing is taking EU communique, not just of today but for the next week or so, a communique that is playing politics, and you are using it to play your own politics. But it doesn’t work as a weapon against me because unlike you I haven’t swallowed it.
My reasoned argument is It’s not that these things don’t exist. And we shouldn’t trust the politics behind what they are saying. If they go into no deal scenario, if council decide to go that route, why wouldn’t they use these things considering they have them?
There’s not of shred of doubt in my mind we are heading to no deal using the carefully devised transition arrangements and sectoral mini deals, because once the leaver putsch is complete in cabinet the political preference of the decision makers at this time, EU council and the UKs Conservative Government will be to manage no deal brexit as painlessly as possible.
I’m right about a leaver putsch. I’m also right about what it results in.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Well, the Swiss seem to manage frequent referenda without becoming too obviously fascistic. And here in California, there's no shortage of state level referenda.
So, we have a couple of indicative votes next week. The government decides to ignore them and goes for no deal. There is a lot of howling, but nobody can stop them.
Is that what happens next?
I don't think so. If the Tories go explicatly for no-deal they will lose people for sure. Hammond, Rudd and other remainers.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
And for that very reason the German constitution, written by the Allies after the war, forbids national referendums.
Can we read anything significant in fact it was brought this week despite destined to fail? Yes we can, look at the groups earlier saying “looking to bring it back this week” and those saying “only back if can win” and you can see which group is now controlling government. Significant because if you get any promises from the other group they are worthless.
If you don’t believe me, just see what happens next. I expect a “managed no deal” putsch
Brexiteers in and out of cabinet, in the party and their supporters in other parties and the media will go for managed no deal.
2.1. No deal. Cash in
I will never cease to be amazed at people who believe they can arrange hundreds of small deals in fourteen days with an entity that doesn't want to deal, and without actually having the power to negotiate any deal at all. It's one thing to believe in unicorns, it's another thing to phone to book the unicorn stadium for unicorn dressage, despite there being no unicorns, no unicorn stadium, no such sport as unicorn dressage, and you don't own a phone.
They’ve already been done. Eg the ceo of easyJet said there was a deal on flying for the next 9 months.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Well, the Swiss seem to manage frequent referenda without becoming too obviously fascistic. And here in California, there's no shortage of state level referenda.
Mother of all parliaments works well here, why not export it around the world. Oh we did, it resulted in horrible bloodshed. Horses for courses and courses for cultures as they say in Gallic cuisine
So, we have a couple of indicative votes next week. The government decides to ignore them and goes for no deal. There is a lot of howling, but nobody can stop them.
Is that what happens next?
I don't think so. If the Tories go explicatly for no-deal they will lose people for sure. Hammond, Rudd and other remainers.
So one more MV, with a codicil to the political declaration, and then no deal.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Well, the Swiss seem to manage frequent referenda without becoming too obviously fascistic. And here in California, there's no shortage of state level referenda.
The problem is that we don't have a federal system or written Constitution, unlike those two states you mention, so there is a lack of checks and balances. And sanity.
Can we read anything significant in fact it was brought this week despite destined to fail? Yes we can, look at the groups earlier saying “looking to bring it back this week” and those saying “only back if can win” and you can see which group is now controlling government. Significant because if you get any promises from the other group they are worthless.
If you don’t believe me, just see what happens next. I expect a “managed no deal” putsch
Brexiteers in and out of cabinet, in the party and their supporters in other parties and the media will go for managed no deal.
2.1. No deal. Cash in
I will never cease to be amazed at people who believe they can arrange hundreds of small deals in fourteen days with an entity that doesn't want to deal, and without actually having the power to negotiate any deal at all. It's one thing to believe in unicorns, it's another thing to phone to book the unicorn stadium for unicorn dressage, despite there being no unicorns, no unicorn stadium, no such sport as unicorn dressage, and you don't own a phone.
They’ve already been done. Eg the ceo of easyJet said there was a deal on flying for the next 9 months.
Plus the fact that some of the constituent parts of that entity have been changing laws to facilitate trade in the event of a no deal.
So, we have a couple of indicative votes next week. The government decides to ignore them and goes for no deal. There is a lot of howling, but nobody can stop them.
Is that what happens next?
Theoretically you're right: if Parliament comes up with a clear majority for something that Theresa May doesn't like she could choose to ignore it (and we'd then be into the territory of whether MPs had both the willpower and the time to sack her and install a compromise figure as a temporary PM to expedite the chosen course of action.)
In practice, for as long as anything other than No Deal or Revoke is actually possible (i.e. up to about April 9th) then if Parliament does find a clear and workable way forward I believe that the Prime Minister, stubborn as she is, will go for it - not least because the only such compromise that appears workable is swallowing her Deal after all, on the proviso that a Deal/Remain referendum is then held. That would resolve the situation, and I think the EU27 would be amenable to extending to allow such a vote to take place.
If we run out of time for a negotiated settlement with the EU then it comes down to panic revocation versus No Deal. Again, if Parliament votes to Revoke then I think the PM will accept, but the barriers to Revocation are sufficiently high (MPs vote overwhelmingly against the SNP motion the other night, and Revoke is likely to destroy the Conservative Party) that No Deal is the more likely outcome if Parliament hasn't been able to agree anything else by a week next Tuesday.
At this stage, I think the most likely outcome at the end of all of this is No Deal, followed by 2nd Referendum, followed by Revoke. A long extension for something other than 2nd Ref seems like nothing more than an opportunity for more dithering and can-kicking in Westminster, it provides no certainty to the EU27, and so I don't see why they would be interested in allowing such a thing.
I've not had much time to assimilate all the info about what's been going on today, but my understanding is as follows:
1. The Deal has been defeated for a third time, but May is likely to attempt to bring it back for a fourth. Dead horse flogging to continue ad nauseam. 2. Brexit Day is now scheduled for April 12th, but the effective deadline for Parliament voting for any option that might lead to Brexit with a Withdrawal Agreement is April 9th, because the European Council expects any proposal to arrive with it for consideration no later than the 10th. 3. MPs are going to attempt to find a majority for a way forward again on Monday. If they're still deadlocked after that then it's still theoretically possible that they could settle on something through one or two more rounds of voting, though more likely the remaining week thereafter will be eaten up by mutual recrimination and the attempts of the Government to somehow secure MV4. 4. Therefore, if Parliament doesn't vote for a positive outcome on April Fools' Day that the EU can accept - and I don't see much likelihood of anything other than a Deal vs Remain referendum coming to pass at this stage - then MPs are either going to have to resort to the Revoke panic button (probably on the 10th or the 11th, once any lingering hope of any other possible way out of No Deal is dead,) or they will simply sit there like a complete field of wet lettuces and hand total victory to Andrew Bridgen, Bill Cash and the rest of the diehards.
Or is there anything vital that I'm missing here?
It's a pretty good summing-up, I would say. You also include the revoke panic button that many are forgetting.
+1
For all the talk, I remain to be convinced there is a Commons majority to agree (and moreso legislate for) anything which stops the default No Deal. In particular, Revoke feels particularly out of reach.
So, we have a couple of indicative votes next week. The government decides to ignore them and goes for no deal. There is a lot of howling, but nobody can stop them.
Is that what happens next?
I don't think so. If the Tories go explicatly for no-deal they will lose people for sure. Hammond, Rudd and other remainers.
@Barnesian....I know it is not right but when MPs lie and go against a national democratic Vote for their own or Party benefit what do they expect ? That they will be welcomed by the public ?
@Barnesian....I know it is not right but when MPs lie and go against a national democratic Vote for their own or Party benefit what do they expect ? That they will be welcomed by the public ?
Nandy is a Leaver.
I trust she voted for the WA then, as that's the only mechanism available for getting out of the EU.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
The trouble with any kind of extension, is the EU elections issue. These elections will be won by Farage's Brexit Party, and his new party will be established in public mind.
He will then be running at next GE on a full blown betrayal of the People act. Dangerous waters.
Are you sure? The Brexit vote will split between Con / UKIP / Brexit / Lots of UKIP splinters I reckon Labour might do quite well.
I just cant see the Tories, as the party that failed to deliver Brexit, being backed by Leavers
I don't think logic has much to do with these things. The Tories are clearly more leavey than Labour and I have a feeling that will get the leavers voting blue. Likewise remainers are likely at their wits end with Labour - but who else can they vote for if they don't want to let the people who have messed everything up back in.
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Well, the Swiss seem to manage frequent referenda without becoming too obviously fascistic. And here in California, there's no shortage of state level referenda.
The problem is that we don't have a federal system or written Constitution, unlike those two states you mention, so there is a lack of checks and balances. And sanity.
Time we became a fully federal state with a written constitution, then!
On a lighter note, it gives me some satisfaction to see the revoke petition has still not reached 6 million.
There's a herd thing there. I really don't know if its the power of social media genuinely percolating themes, or whether it is in fact idiots (who may or may not work in the Kremlin) pumping the numbers. There will of course be a degree of both.
I will say though that should I ever meet someone who signed the revoke petition then I'll hold them forever-more in low esteem. Sort of surprising that I genuinely don't know a single person who has said they'd signed - admittedly I've not asked.
Here's a wild hypothesis: the people whose job it is to weed out fake signatures from petitions, know more about it than you do.
I signed it (once). How I am going to sleep tonight, or any other night, knowing that you hold me in low esteem, God knows.
I surrender obviously. You're quite right in your pointing fun.
I'd barely mention your (once) moment of madness if the issue was a minor one.
@Barnesian....I know it is not right but when MPs lie and go against a national democratic Vote for their own or Party benefit what do they expect ? That they will be welcomed by the public ?
"I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."
referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues"
C. Attlee
Discuss
Well, the Swiss seem to manage frequent referenda without becoming too obviously fascistic. And here in California, there's no shortage of state level referenda.
The problem is that we don't have a federal system or written Constitution, unlike those two states you mention, so there is a lack of checks and balances. And sanity.
Time we became a fully federal state with a written constitution, then!
That would mean a Parliament for England. No English MP, of any party, is going to vote for that.
I've not had much time to assimilate all the info about what's been going on today, but my understanding is as follows:
1. The Deal has been defeated for a third time, but May is likely to attempt to bring it back for a fourth. Dead horse flogging to continue ad nauseam. 2. Brexit Day is now scheduled for April 12th, but the effective deadline for Parliament voting for any option that might lead to Brexit with a Withdrawal Agreement is April 9th, because the European Council expects any proposal to arrive with it for consideration no later than the 10th. 3. MPs are going to attempt to find a majority for a way forward again on Monday. If they're still deadlocked after that then it's still theoretically possible that they could settle on something through one or two more rounds of voting, though more likely the remaining week thereafter will be eaten up by mutual recrimination and the attempts of the Government to somehow secure MV4. 4. Therefore, if Parliament doesn't vote for a positive outcome on April Fools' Day that the EU can accept - and I don't see much likelihood of anything other than a Deal vs Remain referendum coming to pass at this stage - then MPs are either going to have to resort to the Revoke panic button (probably on the 10th or the 11th, once any lingering hope of any other possible way out of No Deal is dead,) or they will simply sit there like a complete field of wet lettuces and hand total victory to Andrew Bridgen, Bill Cash and the rest of the diehards.
Or is there anything vital that I'm missing here?
It's a pretty good summing-up, I would say. You also include the revoke panic button that many are forgetting.
Brussels also has a variety of panic buttons, but I would imagine that parliament will press theirs first.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
Off topic, the valuation of Lyft (loss-making) and listed today in the US and suggested valuations for Uber strike me as insane. And a bubble in the making.
I fear we are re-embarking on the same old boom and bust cycle of before.
I think we've been in the boom part of the boom and bust cycle for quite a while now*.
* As regards valuations of certain high tech startups
Greater fool theory. You also see it in the Canadian hash companies
But Merck paying 24x EBITDA for a manufacturer of plastic ear tags shoots the lights out
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
The trouble with any kind of extension, is the EU elections issue. These elections will be won by Farage's Brexit Party, and his new party will be established in public mind.
He will then be running at next GE on a full blown betrayal of the People act. Dangerous waters.
Are you sure? The Brexit vote will split between Con / UKIP / Brexit / Lots of UKIP splinters I reckon Labour might do quite well.
I just cant see the Tories, as the party that failed to deliver Brexit, being backed by Leavers
I don't think logic has much to do with these things. The Tories are clearly more leavey than Labour and I have a feeling that will get the leavers voting blue. Likewise remainers are likely at their wits end with Labour - but who else can they vote for if they don't want to let the people who have messed everything up back in.
I predict a rerun of 2017.
Sorry, we have our wires crossed, I meant the Euro Elections.
@Barnesian....I know it is not right but when MPs lie and go against a national democratic Vote for their own or Party benefit what do they expect ? That they will be welcomed by the public ?
To show the different circles we move in on here, this morning I was trying to convince a friend that having Tommy Robinson in charge of the country would be a bad thing.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
No police at all? Find that hard to believe.
There were some, but they definitely weren't needed.
To show the different circles we move in on here, this morning I was trying to convince a friend that having Tommy Robinson in charge of the country would be a bad thing.
Having Stephen Hawking in charge of the country would have been a bad thing. Having me in charge of the country would be a disaster,
To show the different circles we move in on here, this morning I was trying to convince a friend that having Tommy Robinson in charge of the country would be a bad thing.
The trouble with any kind of extension, is the EU elections issue. These elections will be won by Farage's Brexit Party, and his new party will be established in public mind.
He will then be running at next GE on a full blown betrayal of the People act. Dangerous waters.
Are you sure? The Brexit vote will split between Con / UKIP / Brexit / Lots of UKIP splinters I reckon Labour might do quite well.
I just cant see the Tories, as the party that failed to deliver Brexit, being backed by Leavers
I don't think logic has much to do with these things. The Tories are clearly more leavey than Labour and I have a feeling that will get the leavers voting blue. Likewise remainers are likely at their wits end with Labour - but who else can they vote for if they don't want to let the people who have messed everything up back in.
I predict a rerun of 2017.
Sorry, we have our wires crossed, I meant the Euro Elections.
If we get as far as holding European Parliament elections then it goes without saying that the outcome could be rather unpredictable - although if I had to stick my neck out then I would guess that the main casualty in such a poll would be Labour.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
No police at all? Find that hard to believe.
There were none except the usuals at the end of Downing Street,
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
No police at all? Find that hard to believe.
There were some, but they definitely weren't needed.
Thanks, yet more fake news I see. Were the police needed in Sunderland?
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
I’ll sell a million and buy at zero
The numbers aren't the point. The difference is the behaviour. Whose side do you want to be on. The tattooed yobs (plus Trump and Putin)?
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
No police at all? Find that hard to believe.
There were some, but they definitely weren't needed.
Thanks, yet more fake news I see. Were the police needed in Sunderland?
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
I’ll sell a million and buy at zero
The numbers aren't the point. The difference is the behaviour. Whose side do you want to be on. The tattooed yobs (plus Trump and Putin)?
No man is an island, but I’m not really influenced by who other people are voting for really.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
No police at all? Find that hard to believe.
There must have been some but I don't remember seeing one.
The trouble with any kind of extension, is the EU elections issue. These elections will be won by Farage's Brexit Party, and his new party will be established in public mind.
He will then be running at next GE on a full blown betrayal of the People act. Dangerous waters.
Are you sure? The Brexit vote will split between Con / UKIP / Brexit / Lots of UKIP splinters I reckon Labour might do quite well.
I just cant see the Tories, as the party that failed to deliver Brexit, being backed by Leavers
I don't think logic has much to do with these things. The Tories are clearly more leavey than Labour and I have a feeling that will get the leavers voting blue. Likewise remainers are likely at their wits end with Labour - but who else can they vote for if they don't want to let the people who have messed everything up back in.
I predict a rerun of 2017.
Sorry, we have our wires crossed, I meant the Euro Elections.
If we get as far as holding European Parliament elections then it goes without saying that the outcome could be rather unpredictable - although if I had to stick my neck out then I would guess that the main casualty in such a poll would be Labour.
I guess the dynamic is Con/UKIP/Brexit/BNP fighting over the Brexit votes, LD/TIG/Green/Nats fighting over the Remain votes, and Corbyn talking about jobs and housing and austerity. I wouldn't underestimate the constituency for the latter, a lot of voters are just not into the whole brexit thing either way.
being stuck on the M25 on a friday afternoon listening to Radio 5 drive covering a truck load of sanctimonious MPs banging the drum for their righteous representation of 'the people' is as close to hell as I wish to come... .the highlights were Private Francois, Bernard Jenkin, Andrew Rosindell, Philip Lee, Mary Creagh, Joanna Cherry, Richard jeebuschrist Burgon.
I couldn't take it anymore and switched off when Burgon came on as the coup de grace.
This rabble of a parliament is more tainted than the parliament with the expenses scandal.
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
No police at all? Find that hard to believe.
There were some, but they definitely weren't needed.
Thanks, yet more fake news I see. Were the police needed in Sunderland?
Leave being hijacked by Tommy Robinson . The anger mongers will always find a vehicle to hijack .
Whether you voted Leave or Remain to see the UK descending into such division is very sad.
Speaking more broadly than just about the various ultras, this kind of division is what comes of having years and years of rolling 24 hour media coverage dominated by a single issue. Vast swathes of people who may previously have had little interest in the matter in question start to develop convinced views about it, and disagreement between those holding contrary opinions becomes progressively more widespread in society.
@Barnesian....I know it is not right but when MPs lie and go against a national democratic Vote for their own or Party benefit what do they expect ? That they will be welcomed by the public ?
Leave being hijacked by Tommy Robinson . The anger mongers will always find a vehicle to hijack .
Whether you voted Leave or Remain to see the UK descending into such division is very sad.
Speaking more broadly than just about the various ultras, this kind of division is what comes of having years and years of rolling 24 hour media coverage dominated by a single issue. Vast swathes of people who may previously have had little interest in the matter in question start to develop convinced views about it, and disagreement between those holding contrary opinions becomes progressively more widespread in society.
See also: the Scottish independence chasm.
Good post. The sad truth is that politicians have fueled the division by irresponsible rhetoric .
To show the different circles we move in on here, this morning I was trying to convince a friend that having Tommy Robinson in charge of the country would be a bad thing.
The British have a ticklish, quirky and politically perverse sense of humour that surely is the only explanation for BoJo being Foreign Secretary, Jezza outperforming all expectations in 2017 and MayBot losing her majority.
And so as BREXIT becomes like an episode of Monty Python the much maligned and derided Prime Minister twists in the wind and calls a general election where her tenacity, endurance and sheer cussedness is matched against the real prospect of PM Jezza and MayBot is returned with a thumping majority.
On the one hand I bet the Schoffels were all bold colours while on the other I dislike the dismissal of any group of people because they were or resembled "football fans".
She wouldn't have got that from the Remain crowd. No police necessary. That's the difference.
That's because they are voting to Remain!
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
The Remain crowd of a million had zero police presence. The police had done the risk assessment and knew there was no risk. The Farage Sunderland march of 150(?) had six police in yellow jackets.
No police at all? Find that hard to believe.
There must have been some but I don't remember seeing one.
I was in the march for over three hours and I really didn't see a single police officer except outside Downing Street. It was quite extraordinary and I commented on it at the time.
The trouble with any kind of extension, is the EU elections issue. These elections will be won by Farage's Brexit Party, and his new party will be established in public mind.
He will then be running at next GE on a full blown betrayal of the People act. Dangerous waters.
Are you sure? The Brexit vote will split between Con / UKIP / Brexit / Lots of UKIP splinters I reckon Labour might do quite well.
I just cant see the Tories, as the party that failed to deliver Brexit, being backed by Leavers
I don't think logic has much to do with these things. The Tories are clearly more leavey than Labour and I have a feeling that will get the leavers voting blue. Likewise remainers are likely at their wits end with Labour - but who else can they vote for if they don't want to let the people who have messed everything up back in.
I predict a rerun of 2017.
Sorry, we have our wires crossed, I meant the Euro Elections.
If we get as far as holding European Parliament elections then it goes without saying that the outcome could be rather unpredictable - although if I had to stick my neck out then I would guess that the main casualty in such a poll would be Labour.
I guess the dynamic is Con/UKIP/Brexit/BNP fighting over the Brexit votes, LD/TIG/Green/Nats fighting over the Remain votes, and Corbyn talking about jobs and housing and austerity. I wouldn't underestimate the constituency for the latter, a lot of voters are just not into the whole brexit thing either way.
The dynamic of a European vote is very different to that of a General Election - and Ukip have already denuded so much of the Tory vote that I reckon they haven't much further to drop. Labour, on the other hand, has Jeremy Corbyn's record of ambiguity over Europhilia and heel-dragging on the People's Vote to contend with, along with the artists formerly known as TIG. Hence my hunch that Labour might have the more to lose in this casee
On the one hand I bet the Schoffels were all bold colours while on the other I dislike the dismissal of any group of people because they were or resembled "football fans".
Anything other than a complete dismissal of 'football fans' flies against the progress from the swamp.
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And how many fewer Conservative ?
I signed it (once). How I am going to sleep tonight, or any other night, knowing that you hold me in low esteem, God knows.
Multiculturalism is a situation in which all the different cultural or racial groups in a society have equal rights and opportunities, and none is ignored or regarded as unimportant.
Multiculturalism definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/multiculturalism
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About this result
But, I’m enjoying revelling in their disappointment that it keeps creeping up to 6 million but never quite gets there.
Is that what happens next?
* As regards valuations of certain high tech startups
Farage has been attacked on more than one occasion, and I doubt it was by Leavers
But then I thought this.
I totally agree transitional arrangements of a managed no deal, the Sectoral mini-deals are not on the table. I totally agree on that.
But will you agree with me that is precisely what we must keep an eye on, that the moment they come out the box (BECAUSE THEY EXIST) and are back on the table it’s clear which way this is going?
Because what you are doing is taking EU communique, not just of today but for the next week or so, a communique that is playing politics, and you are using it to play your own politics. But it doesn’t work as a weapon against me because unlike you I haven’t swallowed it.
My reasoned argument is It’s not that these things don’t exist. And we shouldn’t trust the politics behind what they are saying. If they go into no deal scenario, if council decide to go that route, why wouldn’t they use these things considering they have them?
There’s not of shred of doubt in my mind we are heading to no deal using the carefully devised
transition arrangements and sectoral mini deals, because once the leaver putsch is complete in cabinet the political preference of the decision makers at this time, EU council and the UKs Conservative Government will be to manage no deal brexit as painlessly as possible.
I’m right about a leaver putsch. I’m also right about what it results in.
Or would Snell have only voted for it if he could say he had amended it ?
The lessons of the 1930s have been forgotten.
Oh we did, it resulted in horrible bloodshed.
Horses for courses and courses for cultures as they say in Gallic cuisine
In practice, for as long as anything other than No Deal or Revoke is actually possible (i.e. up to about April 9th) then if Parliament does find a clear and workable way forward I believe that the Prime Minister, stubborn as she is, will go for it - not least because the only such compromise that appears workable is swallowing her Deal after all, on the proviso that a Deal/Remain referendum is then held. That would resolve the situation, and I think the EU27 would be amenable to extending to allow such a vote to take place.
If we run out of time for a negotiated settlement with the EU then it comes down to panic revocation versus No Deal. Again, if Parliament votes to Revoke then I think the PM will accept, but the barriers to Revocation are sufficiently high (MPs vote overwhelmingly against the SNP motion the other night, and Revoke is likely to destroy the Conservative Party) that No Deal is the more likely outcome if Parliament hasn't been able to agree anything else by a week next Tuesday.
At this stage, I think the most likely outcome at the end of all of this is No Deal, followed by 2nd Referendum, followed by Revoke. A long extension for something other than 2nd Ref seems like nothing more than an opportunity for more dithering and can-kicking in Westminster, it provides no certainty to the EU27, and so I don't see why they would be interested in allowing such a thing.
For all the talk, I remain to be convinced there is a Commons majority to agree (and moreso legislate for) anything which stops the default No Deal. In particular, Revoke feels particularly out of reach.
I predict a rerun of 2017.
I'd barely mention your (once) moment of madness if the issue was a minor one.
But Merck paying 24x EBITDA for a manufacturer of plastic ear tags shoots the lights out
You meant Mark Francois.
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/second-brexit-referendum-lisa-nandy-labour-mp-wigan-constituents/
Whether you voted Leave or Remain to see the UK descending into such division is very sad.
https://twitter.com/albyearley/status/1111701074094817280?s=21
I couldn't take it anymore and switched off when Burgon came on as the coup de grace.
This rabble of a parliament is more tainted than the parliament with the expenses scandal.
Vent over.
See also: the Scottish independence chasm.
The British have a ticklish, quirky and politically perverse sense of humour that surely is the only explanation for BoJo being Foreign Secretary, Jezza outperforming all expectations in 2017 and MayBot losing her majority.
And so as BREXIT becomes like an episode of Monty Python the much maligned and derided Prime Minister twists in the wind and calls a general election where her tenacity, endurance and sheer cussedness is matched against the real prospect of PM Jezza and MayBot is returned with a thumping majority.
Oh how we laughed !! ....
A friend asked me