The Brady amendment appears to have rattled all the right people. I bet Ian Dunt has steam coming out of his ears! Long way to go but this feels like a huge step forward given some of the shambolic scenes recently.
Only a small number of Tory rebels said the backstop was the main problem with the deal.
The hope would be even though you are right it is not the only or main problem, it is enough of an additional concession to give cover for people to switch to backing the deal to avoid a crash out. But it relies on things outside of our power, which is concerning to say the least
PM is going back to Brussels to try and renegotiate the backstop. Good luck Theresa!
She already tried that!
I am surprised that the 'reject no deal' non binding vote did not lose by more. It's being sold as the clearest indicator of parliament rejecting no deal, but it was pretty close.
A good day in the office for May. Off she goes unicorn hunting.
A better one for Corbyn. The Tories have either voted for a No Deal Brexit which they will own completely or in the next fortnight they are going to fall apart.
Hmm, I wonder whether if May gives ground on negotiating the future relationship in talks with Labour whether that would be enough for Labour not to vote against the Deal?
Trying to blame ‘no deal’ on remainers is just hilarious. Just utterly ridiculously laughable.
It's up the the EU now - do they want a deal ?
It's absolutely a realistic concession/renegotiation for the EU to make. If they won't even take another look at it then they're as complicit as the most awkward factions within parliament in allowing no deal to happen.
And they have 39 billion reasons to at least discuss if they want to regetotiate, or if they would prefer to have no deal, no backstop and no money.
Parenthetically, at this level money is meaningless. They own the bank. They can just inflate the Euro and let money illusion plug the gap.
Hmm, it's quite a bit more difficult for the EU to do that.
You know more about this than I do, but I remember the chaos around 2010-11 when they were just throwing institutions and funds together, all acronyms beginning with "E", to cope with the Greece not-a-default and associated shrapnel. I didn't know whether to be impressed or horrified.
That was real money. The ECB had a substantial QE programme which has just ended, however EU funding is based on real money, it can't sell Euro denominated EU debt to the ECB which will pay for it with printed money. The effectiveness of the ECB QE programme hasn't been clear from the start, especially since many of the gains have been seen by Northern European nations rather than Southern European nations.
The ERG have played a blinder. Once Theresa is humiliated by the EU, Rees-Mogg, the sly old fox, can stand up and proclaim that he was right about everything: both the EU's intransigence and Theresa's ineptitude. What a man. That will do wonders for his standing and his career.
I'd just like to point out that according to the legislation.gov.uk database, Section 1 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, which repeals the European Communities Act on "exit day", has not yet been commenced so it is not the law of the land that the ECA is to be repealed.
(Unless anyone can show that the database is not up to date.)
In 10 years time, we will be happy as an Associate Member of the EU. We will be joined by many other countries, loosely bound to the EU -- Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden.
There will be a tight core of Eurozone Countries, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, France. This will be the EU proper. And there will be a whole bunch of looser Associate Members.
The destination is clear -- all that remains to be decided is just how we get there.
Perhaps it has to be a painful No Deal, then a gradual rapprochement. Perhaps it has to be Remain for now, and then sulky, dog-in-the-manger disengagement.
In 10 years time, all that has happened tonight will be seen as unimportant froth and wind.
True, by then, WilliamGlenn, Meeks and Andrew Adonis will be gibbering in an asylum, driven mad by Brexit. And by then, SeanT will be using a Zimmer frame but still bragging about his latest shag.
Yet, the rest of the country will be content, at last, with a sustainable and comfortable relationship with the EU.
Trying to blame ‘no deal’ on remainers is just hilarious. Just utterly ridiculously laughable.
It's up the the EU now - do they want a deal ?
It's absolutely a realistic concession/renegotiation for the EU to make. If they won't even take another look at it then they're as complicit as the most awkward factions within parliament in allowing no deal to happen.
And they have 39 billion reasons to at least discuss if they want to regetotiate, or if they would prefer to have no deal, no backstop and no money.
Parenthetically, at this level money is meaningless. They own the bank. They can just inflate the Euro and let money illusion plug the gap.
Hmm, it's quite a bit more difficult for the EU to do that.
You know more about this than I do, but I remember the chaos around 2010-11 when they were just throwing institutions and funds together, all acronyms beginning with "E", to cope with the Greece not-a-default and associated shrapnel. I didn't know whether to be impressed or horrified.
That was real money. The ECB had a substantial QE programme which has just ended, however EU funding is based on real money, it can't sell Euro denominated EU debt to the ECB which will pay for it with printed money. The effectiveness of the ECB QE programme hasn't been clear from the start, especially since many of the gains have been seen by Northern European nations rather than Southern European nations.
To be honest, I think it would be rewarding if I asked you to go thru the detail. There are many experts on here which it would be good to learn from. But unfortunately tonight is not a good time. But thank you for trying to explain it to me.
Tusk throwing a wobbly! Tough shit mate, its deal or no deal (although Merkel will tell Tusk exactly what he can and cant do).
You are literally insane.
Says the people's vote supporter who's had a nightmare day. Nevermind.
I’m not a supporter of a people’s vote as it would just be full of half truths and lies once more. I want parliament to just revoke Article 50 and be done with it.
Terrible day for Theresa. The humiliation of grovelling to the EU for a second chance in the fully knowledge that it's already doomed will be agonizing. When will Boris start measuring up the Number Ten curtains?
Tusk throwing a wobbly! Tough shit mate, its deal or no deal (although Merkel will tell Tusk exactly what he can and cant do).
They'll no deal. Unfortunate. But they are even more stubborn than we are, even to the point of causing what they claim not to want. Because they could reopen things if they wanted, everyone knows the EU loves last minute fudges. It's a choice not to.Perhaps reasonable, but their reasoning has been pretty weak, especially when they complain about it being agreed. It wasn't agreed by Parliament and they know that.
But at what point will MPs believe the EU? May told them they won't reopen things and they didn't believe it.
Tusk throwing a wobbly! Tough shit mate, its deal or no deal (although Merkel will tell Tusk exactly what he can and cant do).
You are literally insane.
Says the people's vote supporter who's had a nightmare day. Nevermind.
I’m not a supporter of a people’s vote as it would just be full of half truths and lies once more. I want parliament to just revoke Article 50 and be done with it.
Yes revoke Article 50 and that will be done with it. That's not a solution to a problem, that's just pure unicorn stuff by people who never leave their bedroom.
Tusk throwing a wobbly! Tough shit mate, its deal or no deal (although Merkel will tell Tusk exactly what he can and cant do).
You are literally insane.
Says the people's vote supporter who's had a nightmare day. Nevermind.
I’m not a supporter of a people’s vote as it would just be full of half truths and lies once more. I want parliament to just revoke Article 50 and be done with it.
Yes revoke Article 50 and that will be done with it. That's not a solution to a problem, that's just pure unicorn stuff by people who never leave their bedroom.
I am really surprised at tonights votes and it would be churlish to deny TM has had a good day
The government voted against its own policy which it has repeatedly reiterated is the only option on the table.
The government has finally chosen to do what I've consistently called for since November. It's the only sane choice.
The EU will be pissed off but they now face a real choice. If they want a deal then lets get a proper compromise which is what should have been agreed originally. If they don't then for the first time I think No Deal could happen and it will be entirely their fault and not May's.
Terrible day for Theresa. The humiliation of grovelling to the EU for a second chance in the fully knowledge that it's already doomed will be agonizing. When will Boris start measuring up the Number Ten curtains?
The Tories are either going to deliver us a No Deal or they are going to split.
In 10 years time, we will be happy as an Associate Member of the EU. We will be joined by many other countries, loosely bound to the EU -- Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden.
There will be a tight core of Eurozone Countries, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, France. This will be the EU proper. And there will be a whole bunch of looser Associate Members.
The destination is clear -- all that remains to be decided is just how we get there.
Perhaps it has to be a painful No Deal, then a gradual rapprochement. Perhaps it has to be Remain for now, and then sulky, dog-in-the-manger disengagement.
In 10 years time, all that has happened tonight will be seen as unimportant froth and wind.
True, by then, WilliamGlenn, Meeks and Andrew Adonis will be gibbering in an asylum, driven mad by Brexit. And by then, SeanT will be using a Zimmer frame but still bragging about his latest shag.
Yet, the rest of the country will be content, at last, with a sustainable and comfortable relationship with the EU.
You are Robert Tombs and I claim my five pounds (sterling obviously).
I am really surprised at tonights votes and it would be churlish to deny TM has had a good day
How ? Please explain to me and everyone else how the Prime Minister has had a "good day"?
The Spelman amendment is meaningless and Brady little better. The EU have made their position abundantly clear this evening - the WA is not open for re-negotiation. We know that with some unspecified "changes" (basically getting rid of) the backstop the WA would pass - yes, that's not the WA on offer right now.
All I can see now is the Conservative spin machine getting ready to blame the nasty Europeans when May is sent back from Brussels with a flea in her ear having got the sum total of bugger all.
Terrible day for Theresa. The humiliation of grovelling to the EU for a second chance in the fully knowledge that it's already doomed will be agonizing. When will Boris start measuring up the Number Ten curtains?
Some spin there. Alastair Campbell could offer you a job. Renegotiation will be harder, but losing the Brady job will have left things looking twice as hard. As much as I dislike her, May has had a very good day. Corbyn blinking has capped it off.
Terrible day for Theresa. The humiliation of grovelling to the EU for a second chance in the fully knowledge that it's already doomed will be agonizing. When will Boris start measuring up the Number Ten curtains?
A good day for May actually as Parliament has voted down Grieve's amendment for any alternative Brexit proposals or potentially EU ref2, as well as voting down Cooper's amendment to extend Article 50 while voting for Spelman's amendment rejecting No Deal.
That leaves May's Deal as the only solution still left, if Brady's no backstop amendment is rejected by the EU that will prove the best way to avoid No Deal is to back May's Deal as stands
I am really surprised at tonights votes and it would be churlish to deny TM has had a good day
How ? Please explain to me and everyone else how the Prime Minister has had a "good day"?
The Spelman amendment is meaningless and Brady little better. The EU have made their position abundantly clear this evening - the WA is not open for re-negotiation. We know that with some unspecified "changes" (basically getting rid of) the backstop the WA would pass - yes, that's not the WA on offer right now.
All I can see now is the Conservative spin machine getting ready to blame the nasty Europeans when May is sent back from Brussels with a flea in her ear having got the sum total of bugger all.
Yep. It was a good day for her in the sense the government won most of the votes, which was not certain by any means, but it hasn't actually moved toward a deal at all.
Clever stuff from Brady though - this was all about securing No Deal, but plenty of simple souls were duped into thinking it might help Theresa. In fact it was the knife that finally finished her off.
I am really surprised at tonights votes and it would be churlish to deny TM has had a good day
How ? Please explain to me and everyone else how the Prime Minister has had a "good day"?
The Spelman amendment is meaningless and Brady little better. The EU have made their position abundantly clear this evening - the WA is not open for re-negotiation. We know that with some unspecified "changes" (basically getting rid of) the backstop the WA would pass - yes, that's not the WA on offer right now.
All I can see now is the Conservative spin machine getting ready to blame the nasty Europeans when May is sent back from Brussels with a flea in her ear having got the sum total of bugger all.
In which case the public will rightly blame EU intransigence for there being no deal. Good.
I am really surprised at tonights votes and it would be churlish to deny TM has had a good day
How ? Please explain to me and everyone else how the Prime Minister has had a "good day"?
The Spelman amendment is meaningless and Brady little better. The EU have made their position abundantly clear this evening - the WA is not open for re-negotiation. We know that with some unspecified "changes" (basically getting rid of) the backstop the WA would pass - yes, that's not the WA on offer right now.
All I can see now is the Conservative spin machine getting ready to blame the nasty Europeans when May is sent back from Brussels with a flea in her ear having got the sum total of bugger all.
In which case the public will rightly blame EU intransigence for there being no deal. Good.
Terrible day for Theresa. The humiliation of grovelling to the EU for a second chance in the fully knowledge that it's already doomed will be agonizing. When will Boris start measuring up the Number Ten curtains?
A good day for May actually as Parliament has voted down Grieve's amendment for any alternative Brexit proposals or potentially EU ref2, as well as voting down Cooper's amendment to extend Article 50 while voting for Spelman's amendment rejecting No Deal.
That leaves May's Deal as the only solution still left, if Brady's no backstop amendment is rejected that will prove the best way to avoid No Deal is to back May's Deal as stands
And the Tories split. From here it’s that or No Deal.
Terrible day for Theresa. The humiliation of grovelling to the EU for a second chance in the fully knowledge that it's already doomed will be agonizing. When will Boris start measuring up the Number Ten curtains?
I am really surprised at tonights votes and it would be churlish to deny TM has had a good day
How ? Please explain to me and everyone else how the Prime Minister has had a "good day"?
The Spelman amendment is meaningless and Brady little better. The EU have made their position abundantly clear this evening - the WA is not open for re-negotiation. We know that with some unspecified "changes" (basically getting rid of) the backstop the WA would pass - yes, that's not the WA on offer right now.
All I can see now is the Conservative spin machine getting ready to blame the nasty Europeans when May is sent back from Brussels with a flea in her ear having got the sum total of bugger all.
I am really surprised at tonights votes and it would be churlish to deny TM has had a good day
How ? Please explain to me and everyone else how the Prime Minister has had a "good day"?
The Spelman amendment is meaningless and Brady little better. The EU have made their position abundantly clear this evening - the WA is not open for re-negotiation. We know that with some unspecified "changes" (basically getting rid of) the backstop the WA would pass - yes, that's not the WA on offer right now.
All I can see now is the Conservative spin machine getting ready to blame the nasty Europeans when May is sent back from Brussels with a flea in her ear having got the sum total of bugger all.
It's a good day for May, because the Commons has begun taking decisions. It has closed off Remain as an option, and earlier closed off a second referendum.
Tusk throwing a wobbly! Tough shit mate, its deal or no deal (although Merkel will tell Tusk exactly what he can and cant do).
They'll no deal. Unfortunate. But they are even more stubborn than we are, even to the point of causing what they claim not to want. Because they could reopen things if they wanted, everyone knows the EU loves last minute fudges. It's a choice not to.Perhaps reasonable, but their reasoning has been pretty weak, especially when they complain about it being agreed. It wasn't agreed by Parliament and they know that.
But at what point will MPs believe the EU? May told them they won't reopen things and they didn't believe it.
Why should we believe it? As you said these fudges always happen at the last minute so why should this time be any different?
Terrible day for Theresa. The humiliation of grovelling to the EU for a second chance in the fully knowledge that it's already doomed will be agonizing. When will Boris start measuring up the Number Ten curtains?
A good day for May actually as Parliament has voted down Grieve's amendment for any alternative Brexit proposals or potentially EU ref2, as well as voting down Cooper's amendment to extend Article 50 while voting for Spelman's amendment rejecting No Deal.
That leaves May's Deal as the only solution still left, if Brady's no backstop amendment is rejected that will prove the best way to avoid No Deal is to back May's Deal as stands
And the Tories split. From here it’s that or No Deal.
Not much of a split though. 15 MPs at most, but more likely 5 or less. It may or may not eventually be chronicled that tonight was the night that set the Conservatives on the way to electoral oblivion, but the Brady amendment proves they’re all willing to go down with the ship.
Clever stuff from Brady though - this was all about securing No Deal, but plenty of simple souls were duped into thinking it might help Theresa. In fact it was the knife that finally finished her off.
Clever and Brady should only be seen in the same sentence if the only other options were Gapes and Socialism or May and Strong/Stable
Backstop Shmackstop. Wise up folks. Labour and the ERG will vote down whatever Theresa comes back with, even in the unlikely event of the EU revisiting things. The No Dealers have victory within their grasp.
Comments
I am surprised that the 'reject no deal' non binding vote did not lose by more. It's being sold as the clearest indicator of parliament rejecting no deal, but it was pretty close.
(With apologies to F E Smith.)
H A S
C H A N G E D
He will be joining his wife outside of Parliament after the next GE!
She should take Boris with her - to hold one of those giant comedy cheques for £39,000,000,000.00
"Let's look at what you could have won..."
I wonder what it will say.
Fantastic.
So... that is the Brady amendment dead too.
Beyond farcical ...
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1090351680523329537?s=20
(Unless anyone can show that the database is not up to date.)
There will be a tight core of Eurozone Countries, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, France. This will be the EU proper. And there will be a whole bunch of looser Associate Members.
The destination is clear -- all that remains to be decided is just how we get there.
Perhaps it has to be a painful No Deal, then a gradual rapprochement. Perhaps it has to be Remain for now, and then sulky, dog-in-the-manger disengagement.
In 10 years time, all that has happened tonight will be seen as unimportant froth and wind.
True, by then, WilliamGlenn, Meeks and Andrew Adonis will be gibbering in an asylum, driven mad by Brexit. And by then, SeanT will be using a Zimmer frame but still bragging about his latest shag.
Yet, the rest of the country will be content, at last, with a sustainable and comfortable relationship with the EU.
https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.130766060
My first introduction to petty student politics.
17 Tories though voted for the Spelman amendment against No Deal
https://twitter.com/isaby/status/1090351153873866752?s=20
But at what point will MPs believe the EU? May told them they won't reopen things and they didn't believe it.
There is no way he is missing out on EU largesse.
The EU will be pissed off but they now face a real choice. If they want a deal then lets get a proper compromise which is what should have been agreed originally. If they don't then for the first time I think No Deal could happen and it will be entirely their fault and not May's.
The Spelman amendment is meaningless and Brady little better. The EU have made their position abundantly clear this evening - the WA is not open for re-negotiation. We know that with some unspecified "changes" (basically getting rid of) the backstop the WA would pass - yes, that's not the WA on offer right now.
All I can see now is the Conservative spin machine getting ready to blame the nasty Europeans when May is sent back from Brussels with a flea in her ear having got the sum total of bugger all.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1090350755641524226
That leaves May's Deal as the only solution still left, if Brady's no backstop amendment is rejected by the EU that will prove the best way to avoid No Deal is to back May's Deal as stands
Or the EU sees sense and blinks. Good.
Either way: good.
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Corbyn spoke of a "decisive" rejection of "no deal": the margin on the Spelman amdt was 2 votes
https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1090355196205678594
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1090355179013238785
Much been happening this evening?
Oh or Hodges and pundit
No doubt we're going to be subjected to the usual anti-European vitriol from the usual suspects if we leave without a Deal in 60 or so days.