If Corbyn doesn't go, Labour are finished. The PLP should split.
That has to be the next step if the membership decide they still want Corbyn. Those who are now resigning and all their supporters have no future in Corbyn Labour.
He's been ok - but inadequate to the biggest question of them all.
He was brilliant on some important issues (for me) like Gay Marriage. But he has shown an arrogance and a vindictiveness that I think has badly hamstrung his term.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Churchill burst into tears at the drop of a hat. He was notoriously lachrymose.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click go.
In general, obviously, and some comedy signatures from abroad, but the sheet total number would indicate a decent spread all over, as those are not large numbers in the grand scheme of the petition itself.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
This is the problem with petitions - far too easy to nobble - if it were possible only to sign if you could provide evidence of having voted last week then fair enough - otherwise pathetic.
Try the Venezuela way to recall the President! Sign a petition, then they verify by getting signatories to go to ballot stations to confirm signatures. Then another even bigger petition. Presumably verify that. Then the vote which not only has to win, but receive more votes than the president initially received!
She's also doing it because she knows Indyref 2 is a non-starter.
You seem very certain, anything behind your thinking.
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1.
Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have
Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
Are they going to get their audience from Scotland and N. Ireland with a smattering of Londoners?
He's been ok - but inadequate to the biggest question of them all.
He was brilliant on some important issues (for me) like Gay Marriage. But he has shown an arrogance and a vindictiveness that I think has badly hamstrung his term.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
The more I think about this, it must be the case that the EU rules trump our laws, since the Q is about membership of the EU. Thus if we give the Article 50 we are out, eventually, whatever our laws say.
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat. Everything she is doing is intent on maximising her influence on the exit settlement together with boosting the viability of her plan B if the settlement doesn't suit Scotland's wish to stay close to the EU.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next - the EU has given some thought as to what do to - Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
Yes - and the person who eventually signs Article 50 will go down in history as the Greatest Fool in Christendom v2.
Which is why I don't think it will happen.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Churchill burst into tears at the drop of a hat. He was notoriously lachrymose.
Especially when he'd had a few (which was most of them time ha!)
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Churchill burst into tears at the drop of a hat. He was notoriously lachrymose.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click go.
In general, obviously, and some comedy signatures from abroad, but the sheet total number would indicate a decent spread all over, as those are not large numbers in the grand scheme of the petition itself.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
This is the problem with petitions - far too easy to nobble - if it were possible only to sign if you could provide evidence of having voted last week then fair enough - otherwise pathetic.
T
No down sides for her.
She's also doing it because she knows Indyref 2 is a non-starter.
On that we disagree, but I hope you're right!
On the petition, I'm a lot more forgiving - if we did have a second referendum, it would be a democratic mandate overturning (or not) a previous democratic mandate, though justifying why we need to be asked again has not been done satisfactorily, and that maybe we should have had a 60% rule in for these things in the first place does not cut it - but it was said earlier than less than 40% of 18-24s turned out to vote.
That is simply unforgivable. How effing lazy do you have to be to not vote on this issue and then whinge about old people voting differently to what you wanted.
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have no clothes.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
If he survives this somehow, he will be the greatest politician of all time - a resurrection on par with Jesus.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick 7m7 minutes ago Labour hierarchy have legal opinions from 3 QCs, I'm told, that Corbyn will be entitled to place on ballot paper even without MP nominations
What, precisely, do labour supporters think Corbyn did wrong.
He didn't make it clear enough that leavers were racist scum?
This is the oddest set of reasons to dump Corbyn.
He didn't do much for Remain - but he did pay lipservice to official Party policy. He didn't lose it for Remain - it was the totally out of touch Labour MPs who were insulting and uncaring about their own constituents worries. And many of them did eff all campaigning either.
And now they want a new leader who's more keen on the EU despite getting a giant raspberry in their heartlands outside London/Studentville.
It's clearly all just a proxy for thinking he's crap - but what a time to do it.
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have no clothes.
If...
Not exactly proving anything if we 'get through' one week is it.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
The more I think about this, it must be the case that the EU rules trump our laws, since the Q is about membership of the EU. Thus if we give the Article 50 we are out, eventually, whatever our laws say.
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat. Everything she is doing is intent on maximising her influence on the exit settlement together with boosting the viability of her plan B if the settlement doesn't suit Scotland's wish to stay close to the EU.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next - the EU has given some thought as to what do to - Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
Actually many people have given thought to it. There are plenty of workable plans out there even if our political leaders have not thought it through yet.
I agree but even you must acknowledge that there are plenty of able leaders in the Leave camp will be aware of and have thought these through. Surely, today was the time to at least make sime re-assuring noises about these - rather than the extraordinary quote from IDS:
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
That is 48% for post-Cameron Tories and UKIP, 41% for Labour and the LDs, if Boris and Gove can squeeze UKIP now Leave have won the Tories should win a clear majority
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1. Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
3 REMAIners vs 2 LEAVErs BBC Balance? 3 lefties, 1 centrist (Soubry) and 1 rightie BBC Balance? Paul Nuttall is the only one from the working class - no wonder UKIP are prospering.
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
And Welsh!
And 44% of NI, despite border issues.
Poor Welsh being swept aside in the Remains of the Remains and their attempt to flog the 'Little England' horse.
29% of multi-culturalists voted to leave, as did 32% of social liberalists, 40% of feminists, 38% of environmentalists and 38% of those who consider themselves pro-globalisation.
Even 21% of those who are pro-immigration voted to leave. A tiny percentage compared to other categories, but still a fifth.
What, precisely, do labour supporters think Corbyn did wrong.
He didn't make it clear enough that leavers were racist scum?
This is the oddest set of reasons to dump Corbyn.
He didn't do much for Remain - but he did pay lipservice to official Party policy. He didn't lose it for Remain - it was the totally out of touch Labour MPs who were insulting and uncaring about their own constituents worries. And many of them did eff all campaigning either.
And now they want a new leader who's more keen on the EU despite getting a giant raspberry in their heartlands outside London/Studentville.
It's clearly all just a proxy for thinking he's crap - but what a time to do it.
Saying that there should be no limits on immigration probably didn't help bring the core vote back on board ...
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have no clothes.
If...
Not exactly proving anything if we 'get through' one week is it.
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have no clothes.
If...
Which one of Leaves pledges/promises will actually happen then?
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
We all think Nicola's great on here.
Will you be hitting the LEAVE campaign trail with Malc in due course?
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1.
Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have
Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Dispiriting start, to be sure. But it's been a few days. Hopefully things will pick up.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have no clothes.
If...
Which one of Leaves pledges/promises will actually happen then?
That is up to the government. Believe it or not, they still run the country.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
How many people mentioned getting rid of the Scots during the campaign. I may be wrong but when people complained about immigrants I wasn't aware they meant Scottish people.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
@JamieRoss7: I don't know about you but I've been feeling very in control since Thursday.
@JohnRentoul: Dereliction of duty for Boris to hide today. Country needs him to at least pretend to have a plan.
Boris and Gove probably still in deep shock after realising they have to deal with it all now.
Sorry I haven't noticed all the news.
When was Boris appointed minister for Brexit?
Since 24th June Leave has owned it all - good and bad. Promises have been made.
Leave supporters do not seem to getting this. They won!! people voted for them on the basis of their promises. They now have to deliver. Cameron lost and resigned. It is nothing to do with him anymore. Blaming Cameron for not having a "plan" is quite ridiculous.
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
The more I think about this, it must be the case that the EU rules trump our laws, since the Q is about membership of the EU. Thus if we give the Article 50 we are out, eventually, whatever our laws say.
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat. Everything she is doing is intent on maximising her influence on the exit settlement together with boosting the viability of her plan B if the settlement doesn't suit Scotland's wish to stay close to the EU.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next - the EU has given some thought as to what do to - Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
Yes - and the person who eventually signs Article 50 will go down in history as the Greatest Fool in Christendom v2.
Which is why I don't think it will happen.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
They will have to level with the country. We can't afford to lose the taxes that the City gives the UK government. Yes its a disgrace that we can't rebalance our economy, but there you go.
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1.
Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have
Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
Oh lord - that's a joke surely?
Looks like an interesting panel. Broad range of views. Europhiles and sceptics from both left and right.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have no clothes.
If...
Which one of Leaves pledges/promises will actually happen then?
I'd guess that a collapsing economy will probably help them with the pledge on migration.
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
A thought - given the tax, spending, trade and immigration promises that all leave Tories are now signed up to, wouldn't it be in the Tories' best interests to elect a Remainer as leader? That will get a lot of people off the hook.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
Not on that issue. Unionist papers calling for an indyref. The only scottish labour MP calling for independence. Gone, done. Now just the when and how to resolve.
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
For now, depends if Boris gets a poll bounce from ex UKIP voters
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
HMQ probably pleased to get her country back?
She certainly had a smile on her face on Friday morning... She might be getting a bit concerned about what's going on with Scotland though?
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1. Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
3 REMAIners vs 2 LEAVErs BBC Balance? 3 lefties, 1 centrist (Soubry) and 1 rightie BBC Balance? Paul Nuttall is the only one from the working class - no wonder UKIP are prospering.
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Well, asking people to vote for a party which is deeply divided and without a permanent leader is something of an ask. We will be in a new world come October.
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Realignment, like minded people will find a way to assemble a potential party that can govern.
We need stability, the current situation is appalling.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
@JamieRoss7: I don't know about you but I've been feeling very in control since Thursday.
@JohnRentoul: Dereliction of duty for Boris to hide today. Country needs him to at least pretend to have a plan.
Boris and Gove probably still in deep shock after realising they have to deal with it all now.
Sorry I haven't noticed all the news.
When was Boris appointed minister for Brexit?
Since 24th June Leave has owned it all - good and bad. Promises have been made.
Leave supporters do not seem to getting this. They won!! eople voted for them on the basis of their promises. They now have to deliver. Cameron lost and resigned. It is nothing to do with him anymore. Blaming Cameron for not having a "plan" is quite ridiculous.
Indeed. Taking Back Control involves Taking Responsibility for what you have done.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
I expect Corbyn to hold on. But I am pleased that Labour MPs are finally showing some backbone. Unlike the membership, they seem to understand that this country is now at a significant point in its history. If Labour is to be heard, it needs a strong, credible voice - one that the present leader is not capable of providing. The membership, of course, has no interest in that; but MPs can only try.
Anecdotally on facebook I've seen a lot of young ex-Corbyn supporters who are now very frustrated with him. I think it's possible the membership could vote someone else in.
Last time he was up against 3 pretty uninspiring candidates who never really differentiated themselves from each other. I voted Corbyn last time- and would have liked to have seen him given a proper chance... but to be fair he hasn't helped himself. I'd be open to voting for someone else if the right candidate were found.
Yep, I think that is the key. If the centre left/left in the Labour party can find a more presentable candidate that would do the job and everyone could unite around him/her. This s not a Blairite coup. These are shadow cabinet ministers who have tried to make it work. But Corbyn is incapable of leading. And at a time like this Labour, not to mention the country as a whole, needs someone who can provide a strong, coherent, useful opposition. Surely the centre left/left can find someone better than Jezza?
Agreed - Corbyn's problem is his hopelessness as a leader; there will be no appetite for a return to Blairite managerialism. The new leader will have to demonstrate they have a plan for reaching the people who have been flooding away to UKIP etc. And that will require commitments to fund public services and reverse some of the worst excesses of Tory austerity, which itself will have implications for corporate and individual taxation.
Ante-Cox, I said the polls were pointing overwhelmingly for Brexit. Post-Cox, I said people were not changing their votes, but lying to the pollsters...
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
For now, depends if Boris gets a poll bounce from ex UKIP voters
If a Leaver Tory leader does not get a bounce and UKIP support fall away then everything we are going through was all for nothing. The only goal of the referendum - to shore up Tory votes - will have failed.
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
She learned well from the Master
She's better than Salmond though because he always came across as slimy (IMO) but with Nicola you get the feeling that as well as being a fantastic political operator she's also a genuinely nice person (in real life)
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
HMQ probably pleased to get her country back?
She certainly had a smile on her face on Friday morning... She might be getting a bit concerned about what's going on with Scotland though?
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Dispiriting start, to be sure. But it's been a few days. Hopefully things will pick up.
You and your fellow reluctant Leavers own this shit. Things might pick up a bit is as far you have to a plan.
@JamieRoss7: I don't know about you but I've been feeling very in control since Thursday.
@JohnRentoul: Dereliction of duty for Boris to hide today. Country needs him to at least pretend to have a plan.
Boris and Gove probably still in deep shock after realising they have to deal with it all now.
Sorry I haven't noticed all the news.
When was Boris appointed minister for Brexit?
Since 24th June Leave has owned it all - good and bad. Promises have been made.
Leave supporters do not seem to getting this. They won!! eople voted for them on the basis of their promises. They now have to deliver. Cameron lost and resigned. It is nothing to do with him anymore. Blaming Cameron for not having a "plan" is quite ridiculous.
Remain supporters dont seem to get the basic idea that there is no LEAVE or REMAIN any more, the campaigns have finished and their staff gone home. There is just the government and the opposition. The government is run by David Cameron. The prominent Leavers may never get a government job, if they don't they are responsible for nothing.
I think there is a real risk that Remainers in power may take decisions (or do nothing) so that it actively harms Britain. Then they can point at the 'problems' just to say 'told you so'. Then use any excuse whatsoever not to implement Brexit when opinion swings behind them.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
The trend is clear
It really isn't because the supposed new question has never been asked.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
She learned well from the Master
She's better than Salmond though because he always came across as slimy (IMO) but with Nicola you get the feeling that as well as being a fantastic political operator she's also a genuinely nice person (in real life)
She was fantastic on Sunday Politics Scotland. Very world leaderly and made a fantastic statement about putting Scotland first and ahead of herself and party. Normally such things sound glib but she gave it tremendous gravitas and weight.
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
She learned well from the Master
She's better than Salmond though because he always came across as slimy (IMO) but with Nicola you get the feeling that as well as being a fantastic political operator she's also a genuinely nice person (in real life)
A thought - given the tax, spending, trade and immigration promises that all leave Tories are now signed up to, wouldn't it be in the Tories' best interests to elect a Remainer as leader? That will get a lot of people off the hook.
Mrs May seems to want the job although god knows why
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Dispiriting start, to be sure. But it's been a few days. Hopefully things will pick up.
You and your fellow reluctant Leavers own this shit. Things might pick up a bit is as far you have to a plan.
Yes, I'll have much to atone for if things do go to crap indeed. I'd still say if the EU is so bloody vital it should be able to do a better job justifying its own existence, but we were warned. We won't be able to make a true assessment for years, when we see the relative state of us and the EU (and whether any more have left - I think they'll avoid that, as us having left means they may finally realise they need to be more flexible), and if I was wrong, I will have to own up and admit that. It's not as though no one has ever been wrong before.
I think there is a real risk that Remainers in power may take decisions (or do nothing) so that it actively harms Britain. Then they can point at the 'problems' just to say 'told you so'. Then use any excuse whatsoever not to implement Brexit when opinion swings behind them.
I knew Ted Heath would sack him. Do you think Ted will win the upcoming General Election and take us into the Common Market?
Are you alright JackW, how are you, and has your ARSE taken a tumble now we are in the Brexit period? You never thought that would happen, did you?
Hello MikeK. Nice to see you back, now do behave.
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
We all think Nicola's great on here.
Will you be hitting the LEAVE campaign trail with Malc in due course?
It's going to be the Remain in the EU campaign by the looks of it..
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Well, asking people to vote for a party which is deeply divided and without a permanent leader is something of an ask. We will be in a new world come October.
And given that we are in rudderless limbo land - we can spend the next three months working out what we need to do.. While the EU moan but can't do much about it....
That's the things that should have been being done by HMG while the referendum was taking place...
Can the Queen ask someone else to form a government?
Oh you are walking into muddy constitutional waters there!
If this goes on any longer she should call Cameron and Boris to the Palace to lay down the law to them.
I don't see what the issue is. Cameron is PM and will be back in Downing Street this evening following a weekend at Chequers. There'll be a Cabinet on Tuesday no doubt. Or maybe tomorrow.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
HMQ probably pleased to get her country back?
She certainly had a smile on her face on Friday morning... She might be getting a bit concerned about what's going on with Scotland though?
GIN, she will still be Elizabeth II of Scotland
Would she be renumbered as Elizabeth I (or just Elizabeth) in an independent Scotland?
Her current numbering comes from the odd compromise of taking the higher post-nominal of English or Scottish numbering, I think?
Comments
http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/man-who-started-petition-calling-for-fresh-eu-referendum-is-de-montfort-university-student/story-29445407-detail/story.html?0233
Who is the crybaby?
Sorry I haven't noticed all the news.
When was Boris appointed minister for Brexit?
Which is why I don't think it will happen.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
On the petition, I'm a lot more forgiving - if we did have a second referendum, it would be a democratic mandate overturning (or not) a previous democratic mandate, though justifying why we need to be asked again has not been done satisfactorily, and that maybe we should have had a 60% rule in for these things in the first place does not cut it - but it was said earlier than less than 40% of 18-24s turned out to vote.
That is simply unforgivable. How effing lazy do you have to be to not vote on this issue and then whinge about old people voting differently to what you wanted.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/747044869118500864
Labour hierarchy have legal opinions from 3 QCs, I'm told, that Corbyn will be entitled to place on ballot paper even without MP nominations
He didn't do much for Remain - but he did pay lipservice to official Party policy. He didn't lose it for Remain - it was the totally out of touch Labour MPs who were insulting and uncaring about their own constituents worries. And many of them did eff all campaigning either.
And now they want a new leader who's more keen on the EU despite getting a giant raspberry in their heartlands outside London/Studentville.
It's clearly all just a proxy for thinking he's crap - but what a time to do it.
BTW Rod - did you call the referendum correctly?
"Our promises were a series of possibilities" !
I'm clinging on like grim death so to speak. Something of a medical miracle having had more close shaves than a Turkish barbers cut-throat razor.
On BREXIT the irony is that UKIP having given birth to the referendum genie will see the first two letters of its title disappear as Scotland exits down the line.
An independent Scotland looms large, the more so as Nicola Sturgeon runs rings around her opponents. She really is a quite remarkable political operator.
3 lefties, 1 centrist (Soubry) and 1 rightie BBC Balance?
Paul Nuttall is the only one from the working class - no wonder UKIP are prospering.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36612916
Then there is this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.html
Will you be hitting the LEAVE campaign trail with Malc in due course?
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/#more-14746
I think that is good enough to say that the UK government will not try to stop one.
We need stability, the current situation is appalling.
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
Post-Cox, I said people were not changing their votes, but lying to the pollsters...
I think there is a real risk that Remainers in power may take decisions (or do nothing) so that it actively harms Britain. Then they can point at the 'problems' just to say 'told you so'. Then use any excuse whatsoever not to implement Brexit when opinion swings behind them.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
That's the things that should have been being done by HMG while the referendum was taking place...
Her current numbering comes from the odd compromise of taking the higher post-nominal of English or Scottish numbering, I think?