I think Dave will be around for a while yet. He can step out tomorrow and declare that, what with Brexit and Labour in turmoil, he and George will do everything in their power to restore the stability the nation deserves. On a psychologically level the public will be pleased - in horribly alien times there's something magically soothing about a familiar face. Dave may also get to salvage something of his legacy. Good on you, Dave! We're right behind you.
Just heard from a tory MP that govt whips ringing round seeing who is supporting who for leadership. They are still pushing Osborne.
Ok, in that case they are deluded. Although as Cameron has no deputy and George is First Secretary of State, presumably if Cameron was forced to step down soon Osborne would be in line for a call from the Palace.
For five minutes at least.
Osborne would have to be able to command the confidence of the House in that scenario.
"Concern as online call for second Brexit vote gains more than 39,000 signatures from Vatican City - population 800 "
"How many battalions has the pope?"
Or in this case, how many Tor exit nodes is he running?
PB has quite a few Vatican visitors, and I always assumed it was Tor related
Googling it up I get this:
Will also give weird results for cities within cities, for example certain locations in Rome may return "Vatican City" - depending on the lat/lon specified in the database for each. – Noel Abrahams Jun 27 '12 at 17:56
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
If you look at the constituency data, its inner London the heavily Remain places, so in other words, people who lost the referendum want another go.
IP geo-location is a very inexact science.
It doesn't usually give results in the British Antarctic Territories. It's not as bad as all that, I live on a remote island in a third world country and I get IP geolocated within about a mile.
You are easy, I regularly get geo located near Frankfurt, I live in Edinburgh.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
I expect Corbyn to hold on. But I am pleased that Labour MPs are finally showing some backbone. Unlike the membership, they seem to understand that this country is now at a significant point in its history. If Labour is to be heard, it needs a strong, credible voice - one that the present leader is not capable of providing. The membership, of course, has no interest in that; but MPs can only try.
Peak Corbyn got 59.5% of the membership. Momentum are doing a really good PR job of getting everyone to think it would be onesided if there was another election but I don't think that's the case.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
Can't trust polling, but the mood music would say that is probable, and the mood music was right on with Leave. If Scotland has decided the EU is more important than the UK, and seemingly they have, then what's the point of a rerun that might be lost in any case, and even if it isn't England and Wales will be for out and why should they risk them to keep pushing it? The scots have no reason to turn out for a second referendum.
Anyone hoping for a rerun to happen and win for Remain will be doubly disappointed.
"The vast majority of the electorate will have expected the government to have not been so goddamn arrogant as to not have bothered with a contingency plan."
It's worse than that, they must have actively prevented the CS from making contingency plans. Mark Carney was ready, but the rest of the Government apparatus apparently wasn't.
I'm happy to take over and order the CS to negotiate my preferred position, but I suspect it would be both illegal and unwanted. So why do the cry-babies expect Gove or BoJo to do something when they are in the same position?
I never believe conspiracy theories.,but this is too tempting. Has Dave a master plan to get us back into the EU somehow? It would explain his sulk.
Cameron always was and still is, underneath, an arrogant bastard that thinks he can't do wrong. Hubris and overreach has led to his undoing.
Question for Tory Peeps. Who rights the leadership election rules ? Can they skip the member ballot phase and the MP's just elect Cameron's successor ? It would be much quicker. I can't see this hiatus lasting till October myself.
We know for a fact some Leavers would have called for a rerun if the result had been the other way. We have statements on record from senior people saying that, more senior than most of those in Remain talking about ignoring the vote (Lammy aside, who else - oh right, Farron).
People react this way to defeat, it's natural.
Actually Farron has not said we should ignore the vote. He has said we should accept it and move on and that his party will campaign for us to re-enter the EU at the next election. That seems to me a perfectly respectable position even if I don't agree with it.
The CS would have had one unless Cammo or Osbo had deliberately vetoed it. Scorched Earth syndrome, but very unprofessional.
I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan. they have months if not years to devise one but it's becoming increasingly clear they haven't a Scooby Doo. Rowing back so fast their heads must be swimming!
I believe Farage waited a full five minutes after the official announcement that Leave had won at 7am before saying there was no £350m a week for the NHS.
Is this a world record?
Leave isn't a political party. There wasn't one single vision of Leave. Farage was outside the main campaign so can hardly be blamed for their "mis-speakings" or indeed "misprinting on the side of a bus". Similarly Hannan had a libertarian vision of freedom of labour to move around post-Brexit Europe but was kept far away from the main campaign, not least for his"interesting" ideas re the NHS. Vice versa, the Leave campaign did not sanction Farage's darker stuff on immigration, disavowed it and at least publicly wished he hadn't come out with it (whether privately they were glad he was mobilising a section of the vote that they were too afraid, due to toxicity, to touch, is something only their consciences can know).
Charles Dickens nearly named Little Dorrit "Nobody's Fault". That seems to be diehard Leavers' approach to their collective deception of the British public.
Just heard from a tory MP that govt whips ringing round seeing who is supporting who for leadership. They are still pushing Osborne.
Ok, in that case they are deluded. Although as Cameron has no deputy and George is First Secretary of State, presumably if Cameron was forced to step down soon Osborne would be in line for a call from the Palace.
For five minutes at least.
Osborne would have to be able to command the confidence of the House in that scenario.
@faisalislam: Conservative Leave MP, Boris backer: "there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"
Damn right.
I know this is difficult for some on here to grasp but here goes:
VOTE LEAVE IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT
OK?
I understand the logic but to be honest that just comes across as a cop out for Leavers to try and dodge the consequences of what they have done. It is why it is essential to get Leavers hands on the levers of power (no pun intended) asap. They really have to run with this and not try and hide behind the fact that the country elected an overwhelmingly pro-EU parliament a year ago.
Every Leave interview I have seen this weekend appears to be trying to row back on the campaign promises in different ways. The die is now cast and Leavers need to call the shots and stand or fall by the results.
Yep - it's time for them to put their programme into place: * £350 million a week more on the NHS * VAT cuts * No tax rises * Cheaper housing * Higher salaries * More jobs * Dozens of new trade deals * All current EU subsidies and grants maintained
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Nick - smell the coffee. Corbyn has to go for the sake of the Labour party. If he remains Labour will become an irrelevance. It is for people of good conscience to now get rid of him - he is a liability (and this is me being kind). It is simply about competence and it is clearly evident that Corbyn is far from competent. Did you see that Jon Snow interview? - it was embarrassing!
Labour need to elect a competent leader to stand a chance; otherwise it's curtains for the movement.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Nick - smell the coffee. Corbyn has to go for the sake of the Labour party. If he remains Labour will become an irrelevance. It is for people of good conscience to now get rid of him - he is a liability (and this is me being kind). It is simply about competence and it is clearly evident that Corbyn is far from competent. Did you see that Jon Snow interview? - it was embarrassing!
Labour need to elect a competent leader to stand a chance; otherwise it's curtains for the movement.
Corbyn has to go for the sake of the country!! We need a decent opposition who can take the process of Brexit to task, day-by-day.
@faisalislam: Conservative Leave MP, Boris backer: "there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"
The biggest dereliction of duty of a government in living memory.
They have a plan, it's called remain. Governments don't have a duty to implement policies of their enemies. Osborne and Carney have implemented the plan too stave off jitters in the city but, beyond that, what can they do?
You Brexit, you Fixit.
So are you saying that Cameron and Osborne should immediately resign ?
I imagine he's saying perhaps Leave should have contemplated the possibility they might win and instead of wanking on about immigration for 3 weeks made some plan.
Leave is a campaign group, it no longer exists, none of the politicians involved in leave except the Justice Secretary have office.
You cannot plan for what others want to do, they have to tell you and then you implement it.
Or, Cameron says I'm PM, I have taken on board the advice from the referendum and I will ignore it (swiftly followed by a vote carried easily through, there being a vast number of remain MPs).
That's the plan. Is that what you want?
Is it?
Leave politicians have to step up, now. They own this.
I'm sure they'd love to step up, but at the risk of repeating myself, LEAVE AREN'T IN GOVERNMENT. When Cameron and Osborne stop squatting in Downing Street, and assuming a Leaver is elected Con. leader, people will have a right to complain about the lack of direction. THEN they will own it. Until then, such complaints are about the most cretinous thing I've ever read on PB. You must realise this. Have some dignity.
As for your first statement, WHAT? No-one WANTS Foot and Mouth disease, a foreign invasion, a swine flu pandemic etc. These are still planned for. I think if we can do that, we ought to be able to muster up a timetable of what to do when we decide to leave a customs union. It's hardly Armageddon. Perhaps the treasury monkeys should have spent a little time on that rather than working away on idiotic reports with lies about 'GDP per household'.
To repeat MYself. i've already said a number of times they should both be out now, maybe you didn't know I'd said that. I'll be charitable. In any case, leave should be running the shop now, October is too late and stokes uncertainty. Don't be cretinous by assigning views to someone like that. It's embarrassing for you.
We know for a fact some Leavers would have called for a rerun if the result had been the other way. We have statements on record from senior people saying that, more senior than most of those in Remain talking about ignoring the vote (Lammy aside, who else - oh right, Farron).
People react this way to defeat, it's natural.
Actually Farron has not said we should ignore the vote. He has said we should accept it and move on and that his party will campaign for us to re-enter the EU at the next election. That seems to me a perfectly respectable position even if I don't agree with it.
Indeed, if these Shadow Cabinet resigners want to have a Europhile, social democratic leader before a general election has even taken place they should sod off and join Farron and the LDs!
Nope. Promises made in a campaign are only promises, and the opponents can and did point out lies on both sides. If the people ignored that, that's their own fault. A party can flat out ignore their manifesto, it wouldn't be illegal and grounds for a rerun of a GE.
I have a plan, but I have no executive power, so it will stay in the deep recesses of my worn-out brain - the best place for it. A plan and £2.50 will buy me a pint of bitter locally. Please explain to me what you expect Leave to do, whatever the plan is?
We have a government and an army of civil servants who are awaiting orders - but only from the PM or his representative, not from a pressure group. I don't claim to be a expert on these matters but that much is straightforward.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
If you look at the constituency data, its inner London the heavily Remain places, so in other words, people who lost the referendum want another go.
In general, obviously, and some comedy signatures from abroad, but the sheet total number would indicate a decent spread all over, as those are not large numbers in the grand scheme of the petition itself.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
This is the problem with petitions - far too easy to nobble - if it were possible only to sign if you could provide evidence of having voted last week then fair enough - otherwise pathetic.
What an utter shambles. As a Conservative Remainer I am appalled. The Leave camp never had a vision of what to do after Thursday. there will now be massive Buyers Remorse as the job losses begin and the economy falters. I think that the Labour coup will succeed. Someone remotely sensible will replace Corbyn. In October we will have a Lab/Lib government. The only consolation is that that will mark the end the career of Boris Johnson around whose neck will be hung the populist lies of £350 million for the NHS extra every week and a reduction of immigration. The most able grown up in the room David Cameron has been removed. We are left with people who have not the faintest idea of what they wish to achieve in negotiations on trade which will go on for years. This is a dangerous situation for our country. I hope that my Conservative Brexiteer friends will take full responsibility for what they have wrought.
No, the economy will be fine in the long-term, populist movements will grow in strength across the EU too, Boris will comfortably win an autumn election whoever Labour throw up (and the membership will ensure it is probably McDonnell if Corbyn goes anyway)
Afternoon all
What a time to be alive.
No. Look at what happens if you allow yourself to pretend you are still in the playground as Lab did with Jezza. It all unravels sooner or later.
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
The more I think about this, it must be the case that the EU rules trump our laws, since the Q is about membership of the EU. Thus if we give the Article 50 we are out, eventually, whatever our laws say.
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat. Everything she is doing is intent on maximising her influence on the exit settlement together with boosting the viability of her plan B if the settlement doesn't suit Scotland's wish to stay close to the EU.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next - the EU has given some thought as to what do to - Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
This Corbyn business shows that Labour needs to split.
Is this the start of the "realignment"? Cameroons and Blairites unite to form a new Liberal Party?
If only. If not now, when?
But I don't think so. At the moment the parties don't even know what they will be doing about Brexit - when to declare, how to prepare for it. Only the LDs seem to have an idea, and that only because they hope picking the most extreme option might net them a few more votes, but for those wanting to be in government it's more complicated.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
I expect Corbyn to hold on. But I am pleased that Labour MPs are finally showing some backbone. Unlike the membership, they seem to understand that this country is now at a significant point in its history. If Labour is to be heard, it needs a strong, credible voice - one that the present leader is not capable of providing. The membership, of course, has no interest in that; but MPs can only try.
Anecdotally on facebook I've seen a lot of young ex-Corbyn supporters who are now very frustrated with him. I think it's possible the membership could vote someone else in.
Last time he was up against 3 pretty uninspiring candidates who never really differentiated themselves from each other. I voted Corbyn last time- and would have liked to have seen him given a proper chance... but to be fair he hasn't helped himself. I'd be open to voting for someone else if the right candidate were found.
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
You really think that. Everyone on here said that Cameron would resign if he lost, which he did, yet you think he should have had a plan to implement something he has campaigned against and that has now cost him his career. What utter nonsense. It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
Nope. Not everyone on here said he would resign. And most importantly he said he wouldn't resign.
Maybe you are suggesting we should have a new rule that says we will automatically believe the opposite of what Cameron says?
So do you think he should have had a plan which he should have stayed on and implemented to negotiate us leaving the EU on his terms? He lost, he has been honorable and he has moved aside. Its up to those who won, who told all those lies during the campaign to do the negotiating. Cameron has a great record as a PM, its up to Boris and Co to see if they can do better.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
Around Europe realignments happen more frequently, ironic if exiting the EU will lead to a realignment of UK politics. Labour right and conservatve europhiles will join together (maybe with LDs, or what.'s left of them) and there will be a General Election as neither party has enough support in the commons.
As a centrist I know I'm hoping but everything is up on the air and anything can happen.
At which point the Europhile establishment will have gone from being in charge of all 3 main parties at the last general election to just one, a new SDP2, a party which of course only ever managed 3rd place!
They had second rate politicians, if only this time we could have the best and, let's face it, the Corbynite and Leave conservatives are much weaker than those who disagree with them.
Not in a country which has just voted 52% Leave!
They lied. They are being found out.
No they are not, most Leave voters are very happy with the result, the country is now officially anti EU
No it's not - they are anti-politics, anti-immigrant but not anti-EU.
They obviously are as they have just voted to leave it and whose immigration polices were they voting against if not those of the EU?
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
If you look at the constituency data, its inner London the heavily Remain places, so in other words, people who lost the referendum want another go.
In general, obviously, and some comedy signatures from abroad, but the sheet total number would indicate a decent spread all over, as those are not large numbers in the grand scheme of the petition itself.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
This is the problem with petitions - far too easy to nobble - if it were possible only to sign if you could provide evidence of having voted last week then fair enough - otherwise pathetic.
All UK Govt petitions are and should be eligible to all people on the electoral register. No more, no less. And that is as it should be.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
Can't trust polling, but the mood music would say that is probable, and the mood music was right on with Leave. If Scotland has decided the EU is more important than the UK, and seemingly they have, then what's the point of a rerun that might be lost in any case, and even if it isn't England and Wales will be for out and why should they risk them to keep pushing it? The scots have no reason to turn out for a second referendum.
Anyone hoping for a rerun to happen and win for Remain will be doubly disappointed.
I think you're right. But non-rhetorically, what happens to this picture once Scotland has left? That seems like a much better peg to hang a re-run on than just saying, "Come on, seriously?"
Obviously that immediately sets Remain back the size of their advantage in Scotland. On the other hand it means England is going to have a land border with the EU, which is a really different situation.
I have a plan, but I have no executive power, so it will stay in the deep recesses of my worn-out brain - the best place for it. A plan and £2.50 will buy me a pint of bitter locally. Please explain to me what you expect Leave to do, whatever the plan is?
We have a government and an army of civil servants who are awaiting orders - but only from the PM or his representative, not from a pressure group. I don't claim to be a expert on these matters but that much is straightforward.
An army of civil servants! Lol.... Where have you been for the last 8 years?
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
I expect Corbyn to hold on. But I am pleased that Labour MPs are finally showing some backbone. Unlike the membership, they seem to understand that this country is now at a significant point in its history. If Labour is to be heard, it needs a strong, credible voice - one that the present leader is not capable of providing. The membership, of course, has no interest in that; but MPs can only try.
Peak Corbyn got 59.5% of the membership. Momentum are doing a really good PR job of getting everyone to think it would be onesided if there was another election but I don't think that's the case.
Corbyn needs to be politically buried by the Labour selectorate. It is the only way to keep the party vaguely united.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click go.
In general, obviously, and some comedy signatures from abroad, but the sheet total number would indicate a decent spread all over, as those are not large numbers in the grand scheme of the petition itself.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
This is the problem with petitions - far too easy to nobble - if it were possible only to sign if you could provide evidence of having voted last week then fair enough - otherwise pathetic.
Try the Venezuela way to recall the President! Sign a petition, then they verify by getting signatories to go to ballot stations to confirm signatures. Then another even bigger petition. Presumably verify that. Then the vote which not only has to win, but receive more votes than the president initially received!
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
She's no fool. I am very sure that she is quite wrong, legally. But either she is right and in addition to having a boost to Scotexit already, she'll piss off so many in England and Wales they'll probably try to force Scotland out and vote Brexit even harder. Or she's wrong and its another example of Scotland being forced from a decision it didn't want, strengthening the scotexit cause.
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
The more I think about this, it must be the case that the EU rules trump our laws, since the Q is about membership of the EU. Thus if we give the Article 50 we are out, eventually, whatever our laws say.
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next - the EU has given some thought as to what do to - Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
You can bet that the one thing EU bosses have thought of, long and hard, is bit's of nations breaking off to do their own thing, They won't let it happen and it's against EU laws where the whole programme is to unite lands, not cause them to disintegrate.
I have a plan, but I have no executive power, so it will stay in the deep recesses of my worn-out brain - the best place for it. A plan and £2.50 will buy me a pint of bitter locally. Please explain to me what you expect Leave to do, whatever the plan is?
We have a government and an army of civil servants who are awaiting orders - but only from the PM or his representative, not from a pressure group. I don't claim to be a expert on these matters but that much is straightforward.
An army of civil servants! Lol.... Where have you been for the last 8 years?
You are right. We have been cutting the armed forces so much we have far more civil servants than we have men in the army.
Anyone hoping for a rerun to happen and win for Remain will be doubly disappointed.
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have no clothes.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
I have a plan, but I have no executive power, so it will stay in the deep recesses of my worn-out brain - the best place for it. A plan and £2.50 will buy me a pint of bitter locally. Please explain to me what you expect Leave to do, whatever the plan is?
We have a government and an army of civil servants who are awaiting orders - but only from the PM or his representative, not from a pressure group. I don't claim to be a expert on these matters but that much is straightforward.
An army of civil servants! Lol.... Where have you been for the last 8 years?
Yet they have enough time to write phone book style reports on how bad leaving the EU will be?
But no time to plan for that aforementioned cataclysm?
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
You really think that. Everyone on here said that Cameron would resign if he lost, which he did, yet you think he should have had a plan to implement something he has campaigned against and that has now cost him his career. What utter nonsense. It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
Nope. Not everyone on here said he would resign. And most importantly he said he wouldn't resign.
Maybe you are suggesting we should have a new rule that says we will automatically believe the opposite of what Cameron says?
So do you think he should have had a plan which he should have stayed on and implemented to negotiate us leaving the EU on his terms? He lost, he has been honorable and he has moved aside. Its up to those who won, who told all those lies during the campaign to do the negotiating. Cameron has a great record as a PM, its up to Boris and Co to see if they can do better.
I am afraid history will not agree with you about his record as a PM.
Anyone hoping for a rerun to happen and win for Remain will be doubly disappointed.
If we get through next week with nothing much more happening on the financial front, Remain's goose would be cooked on any possible re-run, no World War 3, FTSE up a little bit, Sterling no worse than in February, French still saying no refugees camps in Kent, Project Fear will have been shown to have to clothes.
That is indeed the key. Right now some people regret their choice but it's probably not many, it's too early to judge it was definitely a mistake. If things are not apocalyptic, most will follow the line I am sure most Remainer MPs will take when the debate on the petition arrives, that is, it's too late, and it's time to try to make it work.
If Corbyn doesn't go, Labour are finished. The PLP should split.
Yes. He's in an indefensible position I think. He's going to have to emerge from his house and appoint Abbot as shadow foreign sec, and say that he's putting an ad in the Scotsman for the vacant post of shadow Scottish secretary, and lord knows what else.
I think he has to realise that something has to give, and that something had better be him.
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
The more I think about this, it must be the case that the EU rules trump our laws, since the Q is about membership of the EU. Thus if we give the Article 50 we are out, eventually, whatever our laws say.
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat. Everything she is doing is intent on maximising her influence on the exit settlement together with boosting the viability of her plan B if the settlement doesn't suit Scotland's wish to stay close to the EU.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next - the EU has given some thought as to what do to - Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
Actually many people have given thought to it. There are plenty of workable plans out there even if our political leaders have not thought it through yet.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click go.
In general, obviously, and some comedy signatures from abroad, but the sheet total number would indicate a decent spread all over, as those are not large numbers in the grand scheme of the petition itself.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
This is the problem with petitions - far too easy to nobble - if it were possible only to sign if you could provide evidence of having voted last week then fair enough - otherwise pathetic.
Try the Venezuela way to recall the President! Sign a petition, then they verify by getting signatories to go to ballot stations to confirm signatures. Then another even bigger petition. Presumably verify that. Then the vote which not only has to win, but receive more votes than the president initially received!
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
She's no fool. I am very sure that she is quite wrong, legally. But either she is right and in addition to having a boost to Scotexit already, she'll piss off so many in England and Wales they'll probably try to force Scotland out and vote Brexit even harder. Or she's wrong and its another example of Scotland being forced from a decision it didn't want, strengthening the scotexit cause.
No down sides for her.
She's also doing it because she knows Indyref 2 is a non-starter.
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
You really think that. Everyone on here said that Cameron would resign if he lost, which he did, yet you think he should have had a plan to implement something he has campaigned against and that has now cost him his career. What utter nonsense. It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
Nope. Not everyone on here said he would resign. And most importantly he said he wouldn't resign.
Maybe you are suggesting we should have a new rule that says we will automatically believe the opposite of what Cameron says?
So do you think he should have had a plan which he should have stayed on and implemented to negotiate us leaving the EU on his terms? He lost, he has been honorable and he has moved aside. Its up to those who won, who told all those lies during the campaign to do the negotiating. Cameron has a great record as a PM, its up to Boris and Co to see if they can do better.
I am afraid history will not agree with you about his record as a PM.
He's been ok - but inadequate to the biggest question of them all.
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
You really think that. Everyone on here said that Cameron would resign if he lost, which he did, yet you think he should have had a plan to implement something he has campaigned against and that has now cost him his career. What utter nonsense. It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
Nope. Not everyone on here said he would resign. And most importantly he said he wouldn't resign.
Maybe you are suggesting we should have a new rule that says we will automatically believe the opposite of what Cameron says?
So do you think he should have had a plan which he should have stayed on and implemented to negotiate us leaving the EU on his terms? He lost, he has been honorable and he has moved aside. Its up to those who won, who told all those lies during the campaign to do the negotiating. Cameron has a great record as a PM, its up to Boris and Co to see if they can do better.
Did we miss Boris moving into No10 ? Dave is still PM, its still his problem until someone else gets into No10. He should have had some contingency plans, it seems he did not, arrogance or idiocy ? your call.
What an utter shambles. As a Conservative Remainer I am appalled. The Leave camp never had a vision of what to do after Thursday. there will now be massive Buyers Remorse as the job losses begin and the economy falters. I think that the Labour coup will succeed. Someone remotely sensible will replace Corbyn. In October we will have a Lab/Lib government. The only consolation is that that will mark the end the career of Boris Johnson around whose neck will be hung the populist lies of £350 million for the NHS extra every week and a reduction of immigration. The most able grown up in the room David Cameron has been removed. We are left with people who have not the faintest idea of what they wish to achieve in negotiations on trade which will go on for years. This is a dangerous situation for our country. I hope that my Conservative Brexiteer friends will take full responsibility for what they have wrought.
Agree with much of that - but the response will be that you are sulking / grow up etc etc.
Did no-one think of walking round that bus to see what it said on the other side?
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
I expect Corbyn to hold on. But I am pleased that Labour MPs are finally showing some backbone. Unlike the membership, they seem to understand that this country is now at a significant point in its history. If Labour is to be heard, it needs a strong, credible voice - one that the present leader is not capable of providing. The membership, of course, has no interest in that; but MPs can only try.
Anecdotally on facebook I've seen a lot of young ex-Corbyn supporters who are now very frustrated with him. I think it's possible the membership could vote someone else in.
Last time he was up against 3 pretty uninspiring candidates who never really differentiated themselves from each other. I voted Corbyn last time- and would have liked to have seen him given a proper chance... but to be fair he hasn't helped himself. I'd be open to voting for someone else if the right candidate were found.
Yep, I think that is the key. If the centre left/left in the Labour party can find a more presentable candidate that would do the job and everyone could unite around him/her. This s not a Blairite coup. These are shadow cabinet ministers who have tried to make it work. But Corbyn is incapable of leading. And at a time like this Labour, not to mention the country as a whole, needs someone who can provide a strong, coherent, useful opposition. Surely the centre left/left can find someone better than Jezza?
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
And Welsh!
And 44% of NI, despite border issues.
Poor Welsh being swept aside in the Remains of the Remains and their attempt to flog the 'Little England' horse.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
If he survives this somehow, he will be the greatest politician of all time - a resurrection on par with Jesus.
Did we miss Boris moving into No10 ? Dave is still PM, its still his problem until someone else gets into No10. He should have had some contingency plans, it seems he did not, arrogance or idiocy ? your call.
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1.
Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have
Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
How many people mentioned getting rid of the Scots during the campaign. I may be wrong but when people complained about immigrants I wasn't aware they meant Scottish people.
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
Nope. Not everyone on here said he would resign. And most importantly he said he wouldn't resign.
Maybe you are suggesting we should have a new rule that says we will automatically believe the opposite of what Cameron says?
So do you think he should have had a plan which he should have stayed on and implemented to negotiate us leaving the EU on his terms? He lost, he has been honorable and he has moved aside. Its up to those who won, who told all those lies during the campaign to do the negotiating. Cameron has a great record as a PM, its up to Boris and Co to see if they can do better.
Did we miss Boris moving into No10 ? Dave is still PM, its still his problem until someone else gets into No10. He should have had some contingency plans, it seems he did not, arrogance or idiocy ? your call.
Comments
Anyone hoping for a rerun to happen and win for Remain will be doubly disappointed.
Noone likes sore losers and you are coming across as the sorest of losers.
Out of interest how many leaflets did you hand out for Remain?
* £350 million a week more on the NHS
* VAT cuts
* No tax rises
* Cheaper housing
* Higher salaries
* More jobs
* Dozens of new trade deals
* All current EU subsidies and grants maintained
Have I missed anything?
when he gets off the phone from taking resignations.
@JohnRentoul: Dereliction of duty for Boris to hide today. Country needs him to at least pretend to have a plan.
https://twitter.com/Jefforbited/status/746972678389653504
Though he does wear a kilt.
I have a plan, but I have no executive power, so it will stay in the deep recesses of my worn-out brain - the best place for it. A plan and £2.50 will buy me a pint of bitter locally. Please explain to me what you expect Leave to do, whatever the plan is?
We have a government and an army of civil servants who are awaiting orders - but only from the PM or his representative, not from a pressure group. I don't claim to be a expert on these matters but that much is straightforward.
https://twitter.com/AamerAnwar/status/747017127123689472
Corbyn is in trouble...
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat. Everything she is doing is intent on maximising her influence on the exit settlement together with boosting the viability of her plan B if the settlement doesn't suit Scotland's wish to stay close to the EU.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next
- the EU has given some thought as to what do to
- Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
But I don't think so. At the moment the parties don't even know what they will be doing about Brexit - when to declare, how to prepare for it. Only the LDs seem to have an idea, and that only because they hope picking the most extreme option might net them a few more votes, but for those wanting to be in government it's more complicated.
Last time he was up against 3 pretty uninspiring candidates who never really differentiated themselves from each other. I voted Corbyn last time- and would have liked to have seen him given a proper chance... but to be fair he hasn't helped himself. I'd be open to voting for someone else if the right candidate were found.
Shadow Education Secretary: Cat Smith
Shadow Environment Secretary: Diane Abbott
Shadow whatever De Piero was Secretary for: Cat Smith
Shadow Transport Secretary: Diane Abbott
Obviously that immediately sets Remain back the size of their advantage in Scotland. On the other hand it means England is going to have a land border with the EU, which is a really different situation.
Hahahaha
No down sides for her.
I assume that is what you were referring to?....
But no time to plan for that aforementioned cataclysm?
He didn't make it clear enough that leavers were racist scum?
I think he has to realise that something has to give, and that something had better be him.
Poor Welsh being swept aside in the Remains of the Remains and their attempt to flog the 'Little England' horse.
And possibly for a lot of them something a little more "exotic" than champagne?
Did we miss Boris moving into No10 ? Dave is still PM, its still his problem until someone else gets into No10. He should have had some contingency plans, it seems he did not, arrogance or idiocy ? your call.
What plans would you expect Cameron to have?
Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have
Alex Salmond
Diane Abbott MP
Anna Soubry MP
Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader).
Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)