@tnewtondunn: Wow, Merkel wants a #Brexit rethink. Chf of stf Peter Altmaier, UK "should have the possibility to reconsider the consequences of an exit"
Germany just blinked first.
I've been thinking for a few years now, especially since Greece, that Merkel may not actually be that good under pressure, not any more at least. Being calm and cautious, trying for a compromise, is generally a good idea, but if that is accurate she has blinked first and it strengthens the Brexit confidence rather than strengthen those who do want us to have an opportunity to reconsider. Unless that was her intention, a bit of an own goal.
Good old Tory right wing. 18 years without a majority and it's taken the fools about a year to not only retoxify the party but also manage to damage the economic credibility that put them so far ahead of Labour. Way to go guys.
You do talk some rot, Boris and Gove are Cameroons. Boris was the three time mayor of Labour London.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
Around Europe realignments happen more frequently, ironic if exiting the EU will lead to a realignment of UK politics. Labour right and conservatve europhiles will join together (maybe with LDs, or what.'s left of them) and there will be a General Election as neither party has enough support in the commons.
As a centrist I know I'm hoping but everything is up on the air and anything can happen.
At which point the Europhile establishment will have gone from being in charge of all 3 main parties at the last general election to just one, a new SDP2, a party which of course only ever managed 3rd place!
They had second rate politicians, if only this time we could have the best and, let's face it, the Corbynite and Leave conservatives are much weaker than those who disagree with them.
Not in a country which has just voted 52% Leave!
They lied. They are being found out.
No they are not, most Leave voters are very happy with the result, the country is now officially anti EU
And it will only get worse with the EU being spiteful. People are realising perhaps we were never friends in the first place.
The CS would have had one unless Cammo or Osbo had deliberately vetoed it. Scorched Earth syndrome, but very unprofessional.
I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan. they have months if not years to devise one but it's becoming increasingly clear they haven't a Scooby Doo. Rowing back so fast their heads must be swimming!
No they fecking weren't, BrExiters currently hold none of the great offices of state, that will be Cameron, Osborne, May and Hammond. The vast majority of the electorate will have expected the government to have not been so goddamn arrogant as to not have bothered with a contingency plan.
What an utter shambles. As a Conservative Remainer I am appalled. The Leave camp never had a vision of what to do after Thursday. there will now be massive Buyers Remorse as the job losses begin and the economy falters. I think that the Labour coup will succeed. Someone remotely sensible will replace Corbyn. In October we will have a Lab/Lib government. The only consolation is that that will mark the end the career of Boris Johnson around whose neck will be hung the populist lies of £350 million for the NHS extra every week and a reduction of immigration. The most able grown up in the room David Cameron has been removed. We are left with people who have not the faintest idea of what they wish to achieve in negotiations on trade which will go on for years. This is a dangerous situation for our country. I hope that my Conservative Brexiteer friends will take full responsibility for what they have wrought.
No, the economy will be fine in the long-term, populist movements will grow in strength across the EU too, Boris will comfortably win an autumn election whoever Labour throw up (and the membership will ensure it is probably McDonnell if Corbyn goes anyway)
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
Around Europe realignments happen more frequently, ironic if exiting the EU will lead to a realignment of UK politics. Labour right and conservatve europhiles will join together (maybe with LDs, or what.'s left of them) and there will be a General Election as neither party has enough support in the commons.
As a centrist I know I'm hoping but everything is up on the air and anything can happen.
At which point the Europhile establishment will have gone from being in charge of all 3 main parties at the last general election to just one, a new SDP2, a party which of course only ever managed 3rd place!
They had second rate politicians, if only this time we could have the best and, let's face it, the Corbynite and Leave conservatives are much weaker than those who disagree with them.
Not in a country which has just voted 52% Leave!
They lied. They are being found out.
No they are not, most Leave voters are very happy with the result, the country is now officially anti EU
I know you are just playing devil's advocate but the term is 'utterly divided'. Always the most dangerous position for a nation to be in.
I'm increasingly convinced that Johnson never was for leave but thought that having a prominent role in a narrowly defeated leave campaign would put him in No. 10. What a complete mess.
Phil Collins's comment is that Brexit for Boris was a newspaper column that got out of hand...
"12:39 A Corbyn ally tells me that that there is "legal advice" stating that he would automatically make the ballot if challenged. He added: "He's not going to give in. He's a steady, steady individual beneath his reasonable gentleness. He's definitely going to be on the ballot paper, there's no question about it whatsoever." http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/live-blog-jeremy-corbyn-hit-shadow-cabinet-revolt
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
Yes there is. There is clearly a better trade position possible if we get EFTA membership and remain in the EEA. That is better as it maintains out trading relationships as before but gives us the ability to strike trade deals outside of the EU. Indeed we would be immediately better as EFTA have a trade deal in place with Canada.
You have spoken repeatedly prior to the vote that this was your preferred option, and now that we are LEAVING it is my preferred option too. So I sincerely hope that (absent a second referendum) it comes to pass.
However, if you will indulge me for a moment, I need to point out the following: * The Vote Leave campaign specifically discarded that option, and their campaigners are most likely to form the government after Cameron * The noise coming out of Europe deprecate that option * The electorate may reject an option that includes freedom of movement, particularly after a campaign s focussed on antiimmigration
So whilst I hope your EFTA/EEA option comes to pass, I fear that it will not.
Aaaaargh. I really don't want to answer this yet because I set it all out (or most of it at least) in the article I sent to TSE.
Not evading the question. I hope it (my views) will all become clear today or tomorrow.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
If you look at the constituency data, its inner London the heavily Remain places, so in other words, people who lost the referendum want another go.
In general, obviously, and some comedy signatures from abroad, but the sheet total number would indicate a decent spread all over, as those are not large numbers in the grand scheme of the petition itself.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
If you look at the constituency data, its inner London the heavily Remain places, so in other words, people who lost the referendum want another go.
IP geo-location is a very inexact science.
It doesn't usually give results in the British Antarctic Territories. It's not as bad as all that, I live on a remote island in a third world country and I get IP geolocated within about a mile.
@faisalislam: Conservative Leave MP, Boris backer: "there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"
The biggest dereliction of duty of a government in living memory.
They have a plan, it's called remain. Governments don't have a duty to implement policies of their enemies. Osborne and Carney have implemented the plan too stave off jitters in the city but, beyond that, what can they do?
You Brexit, you Fixit.
So are you saying that Cameron and Osborne should immediately resign ?
I imagine he's saying perhaps Leave should have contemplated the possibility they might win and instead of wanking on about immigration for 3 weeks made some plan.
Leave is a campaign group, it no longer exists, none of the politicians involved in leave except the Justice Secretary have office.
The voters might reasonably expect the elected government to have done their fecking job and had a contingency plan ready to roll.
It really is quite astonishing.
And how supporters of this utter mess of an administration can say 'Leave should have had a plan' - sure thing, if you want Leave to put their plan in place, fuck off, because at the moment LEAVE AREN'T IN GOVERNMENT.
You cannot plan for what others want to do, they have to tell you and then you implement it.
Or, Cameron says I'm PM, I have taken on board the advice from the referendum and I will ignore it (swiftly followed by a vote carried easily through, there being a vast number of remain MPs).
That's the plan. Is that what you want?
Is it?
Leave politicians have to step up, now. They own this.
I'm sure they'd love to step up, but at the risk of repeating myself, LEAVE AREN'T IN GOVERNMENT. When Cameron and Osborne stop squatting in Downing Street, and assuming a Leaver is elected Con. leader, people will have a right to complain about the lack of direction. THEN they will own it. Until then, such complaints are about the most cretinous thing I've ever read on PB. You must realise this. Have some dignity.
As for your first statement, WHAT? No-one WANTS Foot and Mouth disease, a foreign invasion, a swine flu pandemic etc. These are still planned for. I think if we can do that, we ought to be able to muster up a timetable of what to do when we decide to leave a customs union. It's hardly Armageddon. Perhaps the treasury monkeys should have spent a little time on that rather than working away on idiotic reports with lies about 'GDP per household'.
Good old Tory right wing. 18 years without a majority and it's taken the fools about a year to not only retoxify the party but also manage to damage the economic credibility that put them so far ahead of Labour. Way to go guys.
You do talk some rot, Boris and Gove are Cameroons. Boris was the three time mayor of Labour London.
You think I'm wrong about the retoxification and credibility? Come over to the Uk and listen to people. Boris is no Cameroon, point taken re Gove.
What an utter shambles. As a Conservative Remainer I am appalled. The Leave camp never had a vision of what to do after Thursday. there will now be massive Buyers Remorse as the job losses begin and the economy falters. I think that the Labour coup will succeed. Someone remotely sensible will replace Corbyn. In October we will have a Lab/Lib government. The only consolation is that that will mark the end the career of Boris Johnson around whose neck will be hung the populist lies of £350 million for the NHS extra every week and a reduction of immigration. The most able grown up in the room David Cameron has been removed. We are left with people who have not the faintest idea of what they wish to achieve in negotiations on trade which will go on for years. This is a dangerous situation for our country. I hope that my Conservative Brexiteer friends will take full responsibility for what they have wrought.
What an utter shambles. As a Conservative Remainer I am appalled. The Leave camp never had a vision of what to do after Thursday. there will now be massive Buyers Remorse as the job losses begin and the economy falters. I think that the Labour coup will succeed. Someone remotely sensible will replace Corbyn. In October we will have a Lab/Lib government. The only consolation is that that will mark the end the career of Boris Johnson around whose neck will be hung the populist lies of £350 million for the NHS extra every week and a reduction of immigration. The most able grown up in the room David Cameron has been removed. We are left with people who have not the faintest idea of what they wish to achieve in negotiations on trade which will go on for years. This is a dangerous situation for our country. I hope that my Conservative Brexiteer friends will take full responsibility for what they have wrought.
Yep, and the scaremongerers (i.e. more sensible folk) on here could see it all coming a mile off.
I'm increasingly convinced that Johnson never was for leave but thought that having a prominent role in a narrowly defeated leave campaign would put him in No. 10. What a complete mess.
I'm sure that is true. But it's his mess now.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that we won't leave the EU. A 2nd referendum based on some changes to the relationship is coming at some point and the % will go the other way 52-48 or thereabouts for Remain.
Around Europe realignments happen more frequently, ironic if exiting the EU will lead to a realignment of UK politics. Labour right and conservatve europhiles will join together (maybe with LDs, or what.'s left of them) and there will be a General Election as neither party has enough support in the commons.
As a centrist I know I'm hoping but everything is up on the air and anything can happen.
At which point the Europhile establishment will have gone from being in charge of all 3 main parties at the last general election to just one, a new SDP2, a party which of course only ever managed 3rd place!
They had second rate politicians, if only this time we could have the best and, let's face it, the Corbynite and Leave conservatives are much weaker than those who disagree with them.
Not in a country which has just voted 52% Leave!
They lied. They are being found out.
No they are not, most Leave voters are very happy with the result, the country is now officially anti EU
No it's not - they are anti-politics, anti-immigrant but not anti-EU.
Huh? He already has delayed his resignation as PM, what more do they want? He cannot be leader of the party anymore, and they surely don't want him to make the negotiations with the EU post article 50, given half the party MPs and a majority of its voters just said they thought he got crap last time?
Good old Tory right wing. 18 years without a majority and it's taken the fools about a year to not only retoxify the party but also manage to damage the economic credibility that put them so far ahead of Labour. Way to go guys.
You do talk some rot, Boris and Gove are Cameroons. Boris was the three time mayor of Labour London.
You think I'm wrong about the retoxification and credibility? Come over to the Uk and listen to people. Boris is no Cameroon, point taken re Gove.
Or you could get off social media and see life continuing as normal. The upset tantrum throwers of facebook and twitter were the same ones whose enormous influence just failed to win an unloseable referendum.
@faisalislam: Conservative Leave MP, Boris backer: "there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"
Damn right.
I know this is difficult for some on here to grasp but here goes:
VOTE LEAVE IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT
OK?
I understand the logic but to be honest that just comes across as a cop out for Leavers to try and dodge the consequences of what they have done. It is why it is essential to get Leavers hands on the levers of power (no pun intended) asap. They really have to run with this and not try and hide behind the fact that the country elected an overwhelmingly pro-EU parliament a year ago.
Every Leave interview I have seen this weekend appears to be trying to row back on the campaign promises in different ways. The die is now cast and Leavers need to call the shots and stand or fall by the results.
The CS would have had one unless Cammo or Osbo had deliberately vetoed it. Scorched Earth syndrome, but very unprofessional.
I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan. they have months if not years to devise one but it's becoming increasingly clear they haven't a Scooby Doo. Rowing back so fast their heads must be swimming!
No they fecking weren't, BrExiters currently hold none of the great offices of state, that will be Cameron, Osborne, May and Hammond. The vast majority of the electorate will have expected the government to have not been so goddamn arrogant as to not have bothered with a contingency plan.
Something I suspect messers Dacre and Murdoch will be shouting from the rooftops along with GO NOW CAMERON.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
If you look at the constituency data, its inner London the heavily Remain places, so in other words, people who lost the referendum want another go.
IP geo-location is a very inexact science.
It doesn't usually give results in the British Antarctic Territories. It's not as bad as all that, I live on a remote island in a third world country and I get IP geolocated within about a mile.
If your IP address is where somebody previously said it is (and you're not going through a proxy or Tor or whatever) it'll correctly geo-locate to the location of your ISP, but if someone typed the wrong information into an unverified web form somewhere, or the IP address changed, it'll consistently get that IP address completely wrong.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Around Europe realignments happen more frequently, ironic if exiting the EU will lead to a realignment of UK politics. Labour right and conservatve europhiles will join together (maybe with LDs, or what.'s left of them) and there will be a General Election as neither party has enough support in the commons.
As a centrist I know I'm hoping but everything is up on the air and anything can happen.
At which point the Europhile establishment will have gone from being in charge of all 3 main parties at the last general election to just one, a new SDP2, a party which of course only ever managed 3rd place!
They had second rate politicians, if only this time we could have the best and, let's face it, the Corbynite and Leave conservatives are much weaker than those who disagree with them.
Not in a country which has just voted 52% Leave!
They lied. They are being found out.
No they are not, most Leave voters are very happy with the result, the country is now officially anti EU
No it's not - they are anti-politics, anti-immigrant but not anti-EU.
Most I've met are are all three - the key complaint was the EU kept telling us what to do. I'm one of the three.
Huh? He already has delayed his resignation as PM, what more do they want? He cannot be leader of the party anymore, and they surely don't want him to make the negotiations with the EU post article 50, given half the party MPs and a majority of its voters just said they thought he got crap last time?
lol, Cameron has already made it clear he won't sign Article 50 for them. Let the shills and liars deal with the mess and, ultimately, explain to the British people why they can't have what they thought they were voting for.
By comparison Chelsea & Fulham constituency has 12,172 signatures.
I'm guessing that's the location of a popular proxy provider?
All govt petitions require a postcode. That is where the data comes from.
How anyone supposedly derives IP addresses however...
Click on the "Get Petition Data" link at the bottom, its gives a big file with all summary data, the server accepting the petition request will know the apparent IP address of the submitter.
I draw your attention to the following items in the data
If you look at the constituency data, its inner London the heavily Remain places, so in other words, people who lost the referendum want another go.
IP geo-location is a very inexact science.
It doesn't usually give results in the British Antarctic Territories. It's not as bad as all that, I live on a remote island in a third world country and I get IP geolocated within about a mile.
Your IP address is often one based on the one of your ISP.
Good old Tory right wing. 18 years without a majority and it's taken the fools about a year to not only retoxify the party but also manage to damage the economic credibility that put them so far ahead of Labour. Way to go guys.
You do talk some rot, Boris and Gove are Cameroons. Boris was the three time mayor of Labour London.
You think I'm wrong about the retoxification and credibility? Come over to the Uk and listen to people. Boris is no Cameroon, point taken re Gove.
I am not arguing about retoxification, I am suggesting that your suggestion it was the right-wing is at error. Neither of those two are right-wingers. What retoxified the Tories was Cameron's lies, in evidence of this I offer the drop in his trust rating from massively in first place, to somewhere below Farage!
Yes there is. There is clearly a better trade position possible if we get EFTA membership and remain in the EEA. That is better as it maintains out trading relationships as before but gives us the ability to strike trade deals outside of the EU. Indeed we would be immediately better as EFTA have a trade deal in place with Canada.
You have spoken repeatedly prior to the vote that this was your preferred option, and now that we are LEAVING it is my preferred option too. So I sincerely hope that (absent a second referendum) it comes to pass.
However, if you will indulge me for a moment, I need to point out the following: * The Vote Leave campaign specifically discarded that option, and their campaigners are most likely to form the government after Cameron * The noise coming out of Europe deprecate that option * The electorate may reject an option that includes freedom of movement, particularly after a campaign s focussed on antiimmigration
So whilst I hope your EFTA/EEA option comes to pass, I fear that it will not.
Aaaaargh. I really don't want to answer this yet because I set it all out (or most of it at least) in the article I sent to TSE.
Not evading the question. I hope it (my views) will all become clear today or tomorrow.
Just heard from a tory MP that govt whips ringing round seeing who is supporting who for leadership. They are still pushing Osborne.
Ok, in that case they are deluded. Although as Cameron has no deputy and George is First Secretary of State, presumably if Cameron was forced to step down soon Osborne would be in line for a call from the Palace.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Has the NEC ruled on whether Corbyn is automatically on the ballot?
@faisalislam: Conservative Leave MP, Boris backer: "there is no plan. Leave campaign don't have a post Brexit plan, Number 10 should have had one"
Damn right.
I know this is difficult for some on here to grasp but here goes:
VOTE LEAVE IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT
OK?
I understand the logic but to be honest that just comes across as a cop out for Leavers to try and dodge the consequences of what they have done. It is why it is essential to get Leavers hands on the levers of power (no pun intended) asap. They really have to run with this and not try and hide behind the fact that the country elected an overwhelmingly pro-EU parliament a year ago.
Every Leave interview I have seen this weekend appears to be trying to row back on the campaign promises in different ways. The die is now cast and Leavers need to call the shots and stand or fall by the results.
Hahaha - this is actually becoming funny! A cop out? That Leave can't implement a plan because, um, they're not Governing?
What an utter shambles. As a Conservative Remainer I am appalled. The Leave camp never had a vision of what to do after Thursday. there will now be massive Buyers Remorse as the job losses begin and the economy falters. I think that the Labour coup will succeed. Someone remotely sensible will replace Corbyn. In October we will have a Lab/Lib government. The only consolation is that that will mark the end the career of Boris Johnson around whose neck will be hung the populist lies of £350 million for the NHS extra every week and a reduction of immigration. The most able grown up in the room David Cameron has been removed. We are left with people who have not the faintest idea of what they wish to achieve in negotiations on trade which will go on for years. This is a dangerous situation for our country. I hope that my Conservative Brexiteer friends will take full responsibility for what they have wrought.
No, the economy will be fine in the long-term, populist movements will grow in strength across the EU too, Boris will comfortably win an autumn election whoever Labour throw up (and the membership will ensure it is probably McDonnell if Corbyn goes anyway)
Afternoon all
What a time to be alive.
No. Look at what happens if you allow yourself to pretend you are still in the playground as Lab did with Jezza. It all unravels sooner or later.
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
You really think that. Everyone on here said that Cameron would resign if he lost, which he did, yet you think he should have had a plan to implement something he has campaigned against and that has now cost him his career. What utter nonsense. It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
So what happens if Corbyn wins? Can the MPs really continue as MPs in the Labour party after that?
"The vast majority of the electorate will have expected the government to have not been so goddamn arrogant as to not have bothered with a contingency plan."
It's worse than that, they must have actively prevented the CS from making contingency plans. Mark Carney was ready, but the rest of the Government apparatus apparently wasn't.
I'm happy to take over and order the CS to negotiate my preferred position, but I suspect it would be both illegal and unwanted. So why do the cry-babies expect Gove or BoJo to do something when they are in the same position?
I never believe conspiracy theories.,but this is too tempting. Has Dave a master plan to get us back into the EU somehow? It would explain his sulk.
We know for a fact some Leavers would have called for a rerun if the result had been the other way. We have statements on record from senior people saying that, more senior than most of those in Remain talking about ignoring the vote (Lammy aside, who else - oh right, Farron).
Andy Burnham confirms he will have no part in a coup and states at a time of turbulence the UK needs a strong opposition
Burnham is the most spineless man in politics.
He is at least realistic, Labour is Corbyn's party now and will be until that wing loses a general election, Labour figures who try to oust Corbyn will not be forgiven by the membership
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
You really think that. Everyone on here said that Cameron would resign if he lost, which he did, yet you think he should have had a plan to implement something he has campaigned against and that has now cost him his career. What utter nonsense. It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
Yes - the electorate has been gamed by charlatans and now the charlatans have been exposed.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Nick - smell the coffee. Corbyn has to go for the sake of the Labour party. If he remains Labour will become an irrelevance. It is for people of good conscience to now get rid of him - he is a liability (and this is me being kind). It is simply about competence and it is clearly evident that Corbyn is far from competent. Did you see that Jon Snow interview? - it was embarrassing!
Labour need to elect a competent leader to stand a chance; otherwise it's curtains for the movement.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
I expect Corbyn to hold on. But I am pleased that Labour MPs are finally showing some backbone. Unlike the membership, they seem to understand that this country is now at a significant point in its history. If Labour is to be heard, it needs a strong, credible voice - one that the present leader is not capable of providing. The membership, of course, has no interest in that; but MPs can only try.
The CS would have had one unless Cammo or Osbo had deliberately vetoed it. Scorched Earth syndrome, but very unprofessional.
I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan. they have months if not years to devise one but it's becoming increasingly clear they haven't a Scooby Doo. Rowing back so fast their heads must be swimming!
I believe Farage waited a full five minutes after the official announcement that Leave had won at 7am before saying there was no £350m a week for the NHS.
Is this a world record?
Leave isn't a political party. There wasn't one single vision of Leave. Farage was outside the main campaign so can hardly be blamed for their "mis-speakings" or indeed "misprinting on the side of a bus". Similarly Hannan had a libertarian vision of freedom of labour to move around post-Brexit Europe but was kept far away from the main campaign, not least for his"interesting" ideas re the NHS. Vice versa, the Leave campaign did not sanction Farage's darker stuff on immigration, disavowed it and at least publicly wished he hadn't come out with it (whether privately they were glad he was mobilising a section of the vote that they were too afraid, due to toxicity, to touch, is something only their consciences can know).
The hints from Germany who tend to have a lot of sway are for a deal that is less than the EEA. reduced access to the single market but probably no supranational court and possibly a reduced freedom of movement requirement. I'm wondering if they would tie the UK into the EU's international trade deals. I can see advantages for both sides to that.
The Germans want to sell us cars and other engineering products without tariffs or hindrance. Fair enough but there has to be a quid pro quo for that and that means the single passport remains for our financial services. Obviously our financial services industry will have to comply with EU regs when dealing within the EU and they will need to accept ultimate supervision by the ECB.
There will be a haggle and Britain has cards to play and a deal will be struck although it's not clear who is going to strike the deal from our side. The strong indications are that the EEA is off the table. It is highly unlikely to include the Financial Passport. That's one benefit to the rEU of us flouncing off. In any case it requires ECJ and ECB oversight. No-one will trust on that, even if we wanted it ourselves. So that's the space in which the haggle will take place.
What are the strong indications that EEA is off the table? Is that from the EU or key Brexiteers?
Do we know what the view on the Norway model is of Boris, Gove, IDS etc ?
I suspect there is majority in parliament and in both main parties for a model as close to the status quo as possible. That would satisfy a majority in the country as well I suspect even though free movement would remain (possibly not to the same extent).
Both Germany and France have said and reiterated, no access to the single market, which is the main feature of the EEA. Germany has talked about a unique arrangement for the UK. The eventual arrangement may have features of the EEA, but it looks it will be a different deal.
Can someone explain to me how it can be in the interests of the EU to not have free trade with the UK?
It's in their interests and ours, but there has to be a price, otherwise everybody could have free trade (which may well be a good thing, but that's another story - although worth noting as an aside that free trade in the long-run benefits whoever has the more competitive industry, and hurts those that don't).
The question is whether the UK will stomach the price - which the EU has political reason to set reasonably high. And who blinks first (clue: proportionally we have more to lose).
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
You really think that. Everyone on here said that Cameron would resign if he lost, which he did, yet you think he should have had a plan to implement something he has campaigned against and that has now cost him his career. What utter nonsense. It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
Nope. Not everyone on here said he would resign. And most importantly he said he wouldn't resign.
Maybe you are suggesting we should have a new rule that says we will automatically believe the opposite of what Cameron says?
Good old Tory right wing. 18 years without a majority and it's taken the fools about a year to not only retoxify the party but also manage to damage the economic credibility that put them so far ahead of Labour. Way to go guys.
You do talk some rot, Boris and Gove are Cameroons. Boris was the three time mayor of Labour London.
You think I'm wrong about the retoxification and credibility? Come over to the Uk and listen to people. Boris is no Cameroon, point taken re Gove.
I am not arguing about retoxification, I am suggesting that your suggestion it was the right-wing is at error. Neither of those two are right-wingers. What retoxified the Tories was Cameron's lies, in evidence of this I offer the drop in his trust rating from massively in first place, to somewhere below Farage!
On Europe. I'd imagine that polling would be rather different now. IDS, Cash, Baker et al are right wingers, Boris is merely opportunistic.
Comments
@RupertMyers: Absolutely. Theory v. Different from reality, particularly since Leave have abandoned their entire platform https://t.co/q0Le9IAma1
Why didn't I think of that?
Oh, wait...
This really is a sad day
Admittedly he may have to multitask a bit in a streamlined shadcab.
Does he get more pay if he becomes Shadow Leader&ForSec&ScotlandMin&..?
"I'm sorry but the vast majority of the electorate will be expecting Brexiters to have a plan."
They have no power. They are a pressure group led by back bench MPs (Is Gove still in the cabinet?") who have NO authority to ask the civil Service to do anything. The PM is in charge, and until that that changes, you have as much power as any of the Leave Leaders.
The PM has a responsibility to facilitate the transfer of power if he so desires. If you have a problem about the vacuum, address it to The Right Honourable D. Cameron.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/live-blog-jeremy-corbyn-hit-shadow-cabinet-revolt
Not evading the question. I hope it (my views) will all become clear today or tomorrow.
The issues it raised would be a debate worth having...prior to having a referendum.
Another thought, Scotland is now going independent, you have unionist papers and the sole Labour MP saying they support it, and so even if there were a second vote they'd have even less reason to come out for Remain than last time.
As for your first statement, WHAT? No-one WANTS Foot and Mouth disease, a foreign invasion, a swine flu pandemic etc. These are still planned for. I think if we can do that, we ought to be able to muster up a timetable of what to do when we decide to leave a customs union. It's hardly Armageddon. Perhaps the treasury monkeys should have spent a little time on that rather than working away on idiotic reports with lies about 'GDP per household'.
I'm increasingly of the opinion that we won't leave the EU. A 2nd referendum based on some changes to the relationship is coming at some point and the % will go the other way 52-48 or thereabouts for Remain.
Every Leave interview I have seen this weekend appears to be trying to row back on the campaign promises in different ways. The die is now cast and Leavers need to call the shots and stand or fall by the results.
Im not sure Cameron will last tomorrow as PM
LOL!
They are still pushing Osborne.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
@bencoates1: Quote of the day, from Brexiter Iain Duncan Smith: "Our promises were a series of possibilities"
What a *********
@PCollinsTimes: At a time when politics is in bad odour this is really bad. https://t.co/vnIa4Tt2IB
Sums up my view of a section of the Remain camp.
For five minutes at least.
What a time to be alive.
No. Look at what happens if you allow yourself to pretend you are still in the playground as Lab did with Jezza. It all unravels sooner or later.
Likewise Boris' cool gang.
Excellent post by @dyingswan
And now, luncheon awaits.
It is clear to me that the Brexit people did not think they would win. That is why they had to do that quickly arranged press conference on Friday. If they thought they would win they would have had something much more dynamic planned. They have no plan whatsoever and they have spent the weekend, starting with Farage just one hour after they had won on Friday, reneging on all the promises they had made during the campaign. It was obvious they were just saying any old nonsense during the campaign about the nirvana that Leave would bring as they thought they would lose. Now they have won they have to implement it. Even Danial Hannan who normally speaks so well was hopless on Newsnight regarding immigration. None of their promises will come to fruition and they will be held as tombstones around their necks for the rest of their careers. I think this will unravel quickly and those as the forefront of the Leace campaign will become very unpopular. How anyone who wants a centre right government is this Country thinks that Cameron resigning is a good thing is utterly deluded.
I guess Labour staff is too busy plotting a leadership content and doing the final maths
"The vast majority of the electorate will have expected the government to have not been so goddamn arrogant as to not have bothered with a contingency plan."
It's worse than that, they must have actively prevented the CS from making contingency plans. Mark Carney was ready, but the rest of the Government apparatus apparently wasn't.
I'm happy to take over and order the CS to negotiate my preferred position, but I suspect it would be both illegal and unwanted. So why do the cry-babies expect Gove or BoJo to do something when they are in the same position?
I never believe conspiracy theories.,but this is too tempting. Has Dave a master plan to get us back into the EU somehow? It would explain his sulk.
People react this way to defeat, it's natural.
Labour need to elect a competent leader to stand a chance; otherwise it's curtains for the movement.
Maybe you are suggesting we should have a new rule that says we will automatically believe the opposite of what Cameron says?