A thought - given the tax, spending, trade and immigration promises that all leave Tories are now signed up to, wouldn't it be in the Tories' best interests to elect a Remainer as leader? That will get a lot of people off the hook.
That has a lot of merits - a kind of neutral troubleshooter figure. They could easier fend off being painted with Brexit's dirty brush by saying 'I didn't agree with myself, but we are where we are etc.' The broken immigration and NHS commitments wouldn't be a problem ('I always said that was pie in the sky'). And the europhile, pro-Cameron Tories wouldn't be seeking revenge. Of course, the Leavers on here were all saying 'it has to be a Leaver, it has to be a Leaver', but what do they know?
Mike's tipping Ed Balls at the moment on twitter (as a long shot). Was 200.
Sensible. Ties with Yorkshire so could stand for Batley and Spen, well known, decent media operator. Tied to Brown but, astonishingly, that is now looking like a golden age of stability (I never thought we'd be reduced to that!)
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
You are not quite getting that people voted for the Leave manifesto. The Leave team have a bigger mandate than any government for decades. Remain lost. D Cameron Esq was the head of the remain campaign. He has therefore resigned. The public who voted leave will expect now for the leave promises to happen. If they don't I cant imagine the public will be happy. They are hardly going to criticise Cameron.
I wouldn't bother. We may have to wait until they've finished the grieving process.
Dear Remainers ...
(1) Leave won. (2) There will not be another referendum. (3) The PM is a Mr David Cameron. (4) The Tooth Fairy does not exist. (5) It may seem like the end of the world, but Bunnies can and will go to France.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
The trend is clear
It really isn't because the supposed new question has never been asked.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
Given over 60% of Scots voted for continued rule from Brussels anyway that question has already been answered too, I would say 52% Yes 48% No would be a likely result but we shall see
A thought - given the tax, spending, trade and immigration promises that all leave Tories are now signed up to, wouldn't it be in the Tories' best interests to elect a Remainer as leader? That will get a lot of people off the hook.
That has a lot of merits - a kind of neutral troubleshooter figure. They could easier fend off being painted with Brexit's dirty brush by saying 'I didn't agree with myself, but we are where we are etc.' The broken immigration and NHS commitments wouldn't be a problem ('I always said that was pie in the sky'). And the europhile, pro-Cameron Tories wouldn't be seeking revenge. Of course, the Leavers on here were all saying 'it has to be a Leaver, it has to be a Leaver', but what do they know?
I think there is a real risk that Remainers in power may take decisions (or do nothing) so that it actively harms Britain. Then they can point at the 'problems' just to say 'told you so'. Then use any excuse whatsoever not to implement Brexit when opinion swings behind them.
It's not a risk, it's the plan.
We are just waking up to the despicable people we have had (and temporarily still do) at the helm of our country.
I have said that Cameron and Osborne were not for Britain's interests until I'm blue in the face, and taken all the brickbats. I am consistently proven correct.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
The trend is clear
It really isn't because the supposed new question has never been asked.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
But they just said they were happy with the UK being dictated to by Brussels, why would they have a problem with it doing so to Scotland?
In Scotland, Brussels trumps London, it would seem.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
Do keep living in fantasy world... Watch how the markets react tomorrow to this weekends shitstorm.....
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
Because the campaigns are not finished by any chalk. Before A50 is signed the remainers can and will and indeed should point to every iterative consequence that flows from this vote.
The people have been lied to and deceived - that will become increasingly obvious to all.
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
For now, depends if Boris gets a poll bounce from ex UKIP voters
If a Leaver Tory leader does not get a bounce and UKIP support fall away then everything we are going through was all for nothing. The only goal of the referendum - to shore up Tory votes - will have failed.
It will do when we get a Leaver leading the Tories, that will ensure a Conservative win
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Well, asking people to vote for a party which is deeply divided and without a permanent leader is something of an ask. We will be in a new world come October.
And given that we are in rudderless limbo land - we can spend the next three months working out what we need to do.. While the EU moan but can't do much about it....
That's the things that should have been being done by HMG while the referendum was taking place...
Or before they decided to call the sodding thing...
Sturgeon saying she'll invoke Scotland's power of veto to block Brexit. Legisation requires all four nations to agree?!?
The more I think about this, it must be the case that the EU rules trump our laws, since the Q is about membership of the EU. Thus if we give the Article 50 we are out, eventually, whatever our laws say.
Thus the question becomes who can give the Article 50 (or rather, what steps if any have to be completed before the PM does so). Since we don't have a written constitution, there probably isn't an answer. The practical reality therefore is that, as with declaring war (at least prior to that commons vote a year or two back, and even that I think is not binding), the PM can just go ahead and do it, if s/he wants.
And so the question becomes what the political cost to a new UK PM would be if they give the Article 50 against a Scottish attempt to stop it. The cost is clearly that it would fuel Indy settlement in Scotland, which of course is why Sturgeon has made the threat. Everything she is doing is intent on maximising her influence on the exit settlement together with boosting the viability of her plan B if the settlement doesn't suit Scotland's wish to stay close to the EU.
The things that are obvious right now are:
- no-one in England (&rUK) has given much thought as to what to do next - the EU has given some thought as to what do to - Nicola S has done a lot of thinking
Yes - and the person who eventually signs Article 50 will go down in history as the Greatest Fool in Christendom v2.
Which is why I don't think it will happen.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
If the EU wanted us to stay, I'd be prepared to believe you, even though it's a lot of wishful thinking. But it is becoming obvious they can't wait to see the back of us.
@RichardT and, yes, you are right, the issue is really lack of leadership and decisiveness rather than thinking.
On Daily Politics Scotland (only just catching up, apologies if already posted) Fluffy Mundell refused to commit to blocking a second Indyref.
I think that is good enough to say that the UK government will not try to stop one.
It would be insane to try to. Not only anti-democratic, but also entirely self-defeating - both in Scotland and internationally.
Come, come, Luckyguy and various other PB Brexiteers have said it ain't happening. That's good enough for me.
It makes no sense to me. What would Westminster actually gain from that? It just smacks of some kind of misplaced British/English nationalism. English and Welsh voters have completely changed the union settlement Scots endorsed two years ago. Scots have every right to revisit their decision.
On a side note, Sturgeon is going to run rings round Boris. You are very lucky to have her. I was never a fan, but she has shown extraordinary leadership and political skill since Friday. Now I am deeply envious. Good luck to you all.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
And Welsh!
And 44% of NI, despite border issues.
Poor Welsh being swept aside in the Remains of the Remains and their attempt to flog the 'Little England' horse.
29% of multi-culturalists voted to leave, as did 32% of social liberalists, 40% of feminists, 38% of environmentalists and 38% of those who consider themselves pro-globalisation.
Even 21% of those who are pro-immigration voted to leave. A tiny percentage compared to other categories, but still a fifth.
Yep. I and RCS and I believe some others on here would have been in that last category.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
Do keep living in fantasy world... Watch how the markets react tomorrow to this weekends shitstorm.....
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
Because the campaigns are not finished by any chalk. Before A50 is signed the remainers can and will and indeed should point to every iterative consequence that flows from this vote.
The people have been lied to and deceived - that will become increasingly obvious to all.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
HMQ probably pleased to get her country back?
She certainly had a smile on her face on Friday morning... She might be getting a bit concerned about what's going on with Scotland though?
GIN, she will still be Elizabeth II of Scotland
Would she be renumbered as Elizabeth I (or just Elizabeth) in an independent Scotland?
Her current numbering comes from the odd compromise of taking the higher post-nominal of English or Scottish numbering, I think?
Isn't the compromise because she is Queen of Great Britain?
She would become Queen of England and Queen of Scotland so both would revert to the original numbering?
No real clue to be honest but this seems reasonable.
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1. Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
3 REMAIners vs 2 LEAVErs BBC Balance? 3 lefties, 1 centrist (Soubry) and 1 rightie BBC Balance? Paul Nuttall is the only one from the working class - no wonder UKIP are prospering.
I think Raab's on also, so you can untwist your panties.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
And Welsh!
And 44% of NI, despite border issues.
Poor Welsh being swept aside in the Remains of the Remains and their attempt to flog the 'Little England' horse.
29% of multi-culturalists voted to leave, as did 32% of social liberalists, 40% of feminists, 38% of environmentalists and 38% of those who consider themselves pro-globalisation.
Even 21% of those who are pro-immigration voted to leave. A tiny percentage compared to other categories, but still a fifth.
Yep. I and RCS and I believe some others on here would have been in that last category.
Ah, but Mr Meeks explained yesterday that areas people think of as 'real' London voted more like 2 to 1, so that's ok.
As far as plans go, what more can or should the outgoing Government do - seems to me they are handling the immediate financial consequences in exactly the appropriate fashion, and leaving the complex negotiations on exit to its successor.
Cameron (and assuredly Sam) can't wait to quit No 10 tomorrow: if serious pressure were applied for him to go earlier than October, I doubt he would resist. But would it be wise?
As for the leadership election. He is an unscrupulous, indolent, copper-bottomed s**t, but Johnson will likely get my vote. And my unflinching loyalty (you know the Jenkin, IDS, Davis, Bone variety) thereafter: eventually, we will take back control.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
You are not quite getting that people voted for the Leave manifesto. The Leave team have a bigger mandate than any government for decades. Remain lost. D Cameron Esq was the head of the remain campaign. He has therefore resigned. The public who voted leave will expect now for the leave promises to happen. If they don't I cant imagine the public will be happy. They are hardly going to criticise Cameron.
So lets imagine for a second that its Boris and May in the Tory leadership elections, and the membership selects May, and she choses not to place either Boris or Gove in her cabinet and leaves them to sulk on the back benches. How do you see them following up their promises ?
If this is backed up by other polling it pretty much rules out another election. Without the ability to call an election, with a complete vacuum of power at the top of the Tories and Labour, with deep splits in both parties, the UK is now Belgium.
That is what we are reduced to. The new BELGIUM.
Well, asking people to vote for a party which is deeply divided and without a permanent leader is something of an ask. We will be in a new world come October.
True. We could see the Conservatives back into the 40%'s with the right Leader. But it has to be a Brexiter.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
The trend is clear
It really isn't because the supposed new question has never been asked.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
But they just said they were happy with the UK being dictated to by Brussels, why would they have a problem with it doing so to Scotland?
In Scotland, Brussels trumps London, it would seem.
The vote on Thursday was based on the assumption of staying as part of the UK in the EU.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
Do keep living in fantasy world... Watch how the markets react tomorrow to this weekends shitstorm.....
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
Because the campaigns are not finished by any chalk. Before A50 is signed the remainers can and will and indeed should point to every iterative consequence that flows from this vote.
The people have been lied to and deceived - that will become increasingly obvious to all.
He shouldn't take responsibility, that's what we're saying. He should LEAVE. At the moment, he IS taking responsibility. If they really had no plan, fine - worst Government in living history, but fine, we accept they had no plan. So step aside, and let the LEAVERS govern. Let them fail, let them break their promises, let them get no trade deals etc. at the moment these things CAN'T HAPPEN.
Seriously, find a new line. This one is you repeatedly bashing your brains out on a logical brick wall. It's genuinely uncomfortable to witness.
Currystar it is not ridiculous. Cameron is the PM no one else. If it is all up to Leave, then he can appoint a negotiating team including some of the main Leavers. I'm unsure what you are expecting; Daniel Hannan, say, an MEP to walk into Whitehall say he's in charge and start telling the Civil Service what to do? When did Vote Leave become the elected govt?
On Labour, not my specialism, but Tom Watson well placed is he? That'll be Tom Watson one of the MPs in my home town West Brom? Check out the EU ref result in Sandwell and see Labour's problem.
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
I know this is hard for you, but do try and keep up
@JamieRoss7: I don't know about you but I've been feeling very in control since Thursday.
@JohnRentoul: Dereliction of duty for Boris to hide today. Country needs him to at least pretend to have a plan.
Boris and Gove probably still in deep shock after realising they have to deal with it all now.
Sorry I haven't noticed all the news.
When was Boris appointed minister for Brexit?
Since 24th June Leave has owned it all - good and bad. Promises have been made.
Leave supporters do not seem to getting this. They won!! people voted for them on the basis of their promises. They now have to deliver. Cameron lost and resigned. It is nothing to do with him anymore. Blaming Cameron for not having a "plan" is quite ridiculous.
Unfortunately not true. He has managed to resign without actually giving up any of the power. All the key offices of State are still held by Remainers and until someone actually starts kicking them out or they resign there is absolutely nothing Leave can do about it.
He also urges a coalition of the European sympathisers must come together
To prevent the article 50 declaration, to try for a rerun of the referendum, to urge as close a deal to EU status as is possible while outside of it, to rejoin the EU? Several options.
Michael Crick @MichaelLCrick 7m7 minutes ago Labour hierarchy have legal opinions from 3 QCs, I'm told, that Corbyn will be entitled to place on ballot paper even without MP nominations
As many here have been saying for at least 6 months...
On Daily Politics Scotland (only just catching up, apologies if already posted) Fluffy Mundell refused to commit to blocking a second Indyref.
I think that is good enough to say that the UK government will not try to stop one.
It would be insane to try to. Not only anti-democratic, but also entirely self-defeating - both in Scotland and internationally.
Come, come, Luckyguy and various other PB Brexiteers have said it ain't happening. That's good enough for me.
It makes no sense to me. What would Westminster actually gain from that? It just smacks of some kind of misplaced British/English nationalism. English and Welsh voters have completely changed the union settlement Scots endorsed two years ago. Scots have every right to revisit their decision.
On a side note, Sturgeon is going to run rings round Boris. You are very lucky to have her. I was never a fan, but she has shown extraordinary leadership and political skill since Friday. Now I am deeply envious. Good luck to you all.
Thanks. I realise things are not turning out the way you might want, so your good opinion is all the more appreciated.
Frank Field - "The English prop up the Scottish economy."
It's quite surprising how vehemently the Leavers have turned on Scotland. Is it because its raining on their parade, or are they just indignant about people having the temerity to reject their easy answers?
I think there is a real risk that Remainers in power may take decisions (or do nothing) so that it actively harms Britain. Then they can point at the 'problems' just to say 'told you so'. Then use any excuse whatsoever not to implement Brexit when opinion swings behind them.
You cannot be serious.
I do not trust any remainer to do what is in this country's interest, they are servile to the EU. That's why people voted Leave.
BBC have decided to have a Question Time at 18:30 tonight on BBC 1. Amongst the Political Giants to attend we have Alex Salmond Diane Abbott MP Anna Soubry MP Paul Nuttall (UKIP MEP for North West England, UKIP Deputy Leader). Giles Fraser (South London priest. Guardian columnist. Moral Maze panelist.)
3 REMAIners vs 2 LEAVErs BBC Balance? 3 lefties, 1 centrist (Soubry) and 1 rightie BBC Balance? Paul Nuttall is the only one from the working class - no wonder UKIP are prospering.
I think Raab's on also, so you can untwist your panties.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
The trend is clear
It really isn't because the supposed new question has never been asked.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
But they just said they were happy with the UK being dictated to by Brussels, why would they have a problem with it doing so to Scotland?
In Scotland, Brussels trumps London, it would seem.
The vote on Thursday was based on the assumption of staying as part of the UK in the EU.
And the mood has immediately jumped to wanting to exit the UK based on that, even some Labour and Tories in Scotland.
Frank Field - "The English prop up the Scottish economy."
It's quite surprising how vehemently the Leavers have turned on Scotland. Is it because its raining on their parade, or are they just indignant about people having the temerity to reject their easy answers?
Ha! I was intensely relaxed about Scottish Independence in 2014. In fact, I was very angry that our English politicians screwed over Pompey to bribe the Scots to stay. Seriously, if the Scots want to go it alone, I won't hold it against them.
Sky - LDs to campaign on a manifesto pledge for the UK to rejoin the EU
Ah, well that's settled then - they're not arguing to prevent us leaving, so there's even less support for a rerun of the referendum. This is happening, and the LDs are already pitching for the aftermath, which is not an easy pitch either.
How bad would things need to be to rejoin after years of painful negotiations, and how long would it take to get back in and at what price, if it is even manageable?
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
Do keep living in fantasy world... Watch how the markets react tomorrow to this weekends shitstorm.....
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
Because the campaigns are not finished by any chalk. Before A50 is signed the remainers can and will and indeed should point to every iterative consequence that flows from this vote.
The people have been lied to and deceived - that will become increasingly obvious to all.
They've made their decisions. Either they're grown up enough to be entitled to a vote or they're not. Thursday saw the biggest UK turnout in British polls since 1992: people wanted to be engaged in a way they have not been in a generation. That decision must now be implemented.
There is a question of What Comes Next. It's a complex one and one that it's best to let parliament decide. But Leave means leave.
As for the people being deceived, Project Fear wasn't so called without reason. It's not their fault if they didn't believe it.
ANyway, the most important question is will PB Tories be getting back together?
Good day
Sadly I think not. With a few honourable exceptions, PB Tory Remainers seem singularly uninterested in their party, or indeed in making the UK a success, and much more interested in wallowing in perceived 'chaos' and hoping the clearly stated democratic will of the British people can be overturned.
Cameron promised the country a referendum and delivered one. He then said that irrespective of the result he would stay as PM and implement the will of the people. He was crystal clear about that. If currently there is an absence of a detailed plan for leaving it's Cameron's fault alone.
Sky - LDs to campaign on a manifesto pledge for the UK to rejoin the EU
Ah, well that's settled then - they're not arguing to prevent us leaving, so there's even less support for a rerun of the referendum. This is happening, and the LDs are already pitching for the aftermath, which is not an easy pitch either.
How bad would things need to be to rejoin after years of painful negotiations, and how long would it take to get back in and at what price, if it is even manageable?
Who knows but if voters want it they have a party that offers them that option, I doubt things will be that bad and they will change their mind but the option is there if they do
He also urges a coalition of the European sympathisers must come together
To prevent the article 50 declaration, to try for a rerun of the referendum, to urge as close a deal to EU status as is possible while outside of it, to rejoin the EU? Several options.
To join the LDs sounds most sensible as TCPB suggests
Frank Field - "The English prop up the Scottish economy."
It's quite surprising how vehemently the Leavers have turned on Scotland. Is it because its raining on their parade, or are they just indignant about people having the temerity to reject their easy answers?
Ha! I was intensely relaxed about Scottish Independence in 2014. In fact, I was very angry that our English politicians screwed over Pompey to bribe the Scots to stay. Seriously, if the Scots want to go it alone, I won't hold it against them.
Exactly, it's the Remainer establishment that cares about Scotland. Blame the Left for lending support to celtic nationalism and so ruining any sense of shared identity.
For many Leavers an independant Scotland has already been priced in.
Sky - LDs to campaign on a manifesto pledge for the UK to rejoin the EU
Ah, well that's settled then - they're not arguing to prevent us leaving, so there's even less support for a rerun of the referendum. This is happening, and the LDs are already pitching for the aftermath, which is not an easy pitch either.
How bad would things need to be to rejoin after years of painful negotiations, and how long would it take to get back in and at what price, if it is even manageable?
Who knows but if voters want it they have a party that offers them that option, I doubt things will be that bad and they will change their mind but the option is there if they do
Heseltine concedes on Sky only Boris, Gove and Farage can now lead the country and the negotiations on Brexit given the Leave vote
Holy shit.. we are fecked.. All those who voted leave should remember what they did.. .
What LEAVERS did is vote in a democratic contest, which is there right. If you want to blame anyone, blame Cameron for having the referendum and then losing it.
Now I'm not saying Dave is the next Churchill, but if he can hang around and salvage something from the Brexit aftermath then surely he'll be up there.
They were all in tears in Downing St. On Friday morning... Can't imagine Churchill having an emotional breakdown like that... He'd have told Cameron to have a glass of whisky (or five) and pull himself together!
Not so. Apparently Churchill was nearly speechless and overcome with tears when greeting the Queen on the runway upon the death of George VI. HM's reply: 'Yes, a sad day but a good flight.'
Now HMQ is the woman to tell Cameron to pull himself together... She may already have done so (several times)
HMQ probably pleased to get her country back?
She certainly had a smile on her face on Friday morning... She might be getting a bit concerned about what's going on with Scotland though?
GIN, she will still be Elizabeth II of Scotland
Would she be renumbered as Elizabeth I (or just Elizabeth) in an independent Scotland?
Her current numbering comes from the odd compromise of taking the higher post-nominal of English or Scottish numbering, I think?
Isn't the compromise because she is Queen of Great Britain?
She would become Queen of England and Queen of Scotland so both would revert to the original numbering?
No real clue to be honest but this seems reasonable.
That's precisely the point. But what she'd be after independence is TBC. She's Queen Elizabeth II in Australia as well, for example.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
The trend is clear
It really isn't because the supposed new question has never been asked.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
But they just said they were happy with the UK being dictated to by Brussels, why would they have a problem with it doing so to Scotland?
In Scotland, Brussels trumps London, it would seem.
The vote on Thursday was based on the assumption of staying as part of the UK in the EU.
And the mood has immediately jumped to wanting to exit the UK based on that, even some Labour and Tories in Scotland.
Knee-jerking in the immediate aftermath of one vote isn't necessarily a sign of how people will vote in a future one.
Most people are sensible and will calm down as events unfold and unknowns become known.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
You are not quite getting that people voted for the Leave manifesto. The Leave team have a bigger mandate than any government for decades. Remain lost. D Cameron Esq was the head of the remain campaign. He has therefore resigned. The public who voted leave will expect now for the leave promises to happen. If they don't I cant imagine the public will be happy. They are hardly going to criticise Cameron.
So lets imagine for a second that its Boris and May in the Tory leadership elections, and the membership selects May, and she choses not to place either Boris or Gove in her cabinet and leaves them to sulk on the back benches. How do you see them following up their promises ?
May's only chance - which actually I'd put at reasonably good - is if she owns the decision and maps out some sort of a plan for delivering it. There's no other platform on which anyone is going to become Tory Leader. Remember that, although there are a some Tory remainers, many of them went that way out of loyalty to Cameron, rather than conviction. If their Leader is seen as competent, many Tories will follow, and the key is whether May can put together a convincing prospectus..
"13.59: Momentum have called for an Emergency Action to keep Corbyn as leader. They have e-mailed party members asking them to protest outside Parliament tomorrow at 6pm during the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting. The e-mail reads as follows:
'The future is uncertain. After a Brexit vote we are in a time of national crisis, Cameron has resigned and we will likely have a general election with the potential of Britain lurching yet further to the right.
A small number of Labour MPs are using this as an opportunity to oust Jeremy, disrespect the Labour membership who elected him and to disregard our movement for a new kind of politics.
We cannot let this undemocratic behaviour succeed.
Join us at 6 pm outside Parliament tomorrow, Monday 27 June.
The Parliamentary Labour Party will be meeting inside, so let’s make sure they can hear us, the Labour Party members and voters outside.'"
On Daily Politics Scotland (only just catching up, apologies if already posted) Fluffy Mundell refused to commit to blocking a second Indyref.
I think that is good enough to say that the UK government will not try to stop one.
It would be insane to try to. Not only anti-democratic, but also entirely self-defeating - both in Scotland and internationally.
Come, come, Luckyguy and various other PB Brexiteers have said it ain't happening. That's good enough for me.
It makes no sense to me. What would Westminster actually gain from that? It just smacks of some kind of misplaced British/English nationalism. English and Welsh voters have completely changed the union settlement Scots endorsed two years ago. Scots have every right to revisit their decision.
On a side note, Sturgeon is going to run rings round Boris. You are very lucky to have her. I was never a fan, but she has shown extraordinary leadership and political skill since Friday. Now I am deeply envious. Good luck to you all.
Thanks. I realise things are not turning out the way you might want, so your good opinion is all the more appreciated.
In a strange kind of way I am enjoying it. The UK that was is no more and it's not coming back. Thursday changed everything. It's time for England to sort itself out and I think that we may be at the start of that. I am still not fully convinced that we will actually leave the EU.
I genuinely wish you the very best of luck. I love Scotland and will enjoy visiting it in the future. It will not be a foreign country ever to me. But it is clear that Scottish voters have every right to decide whether it should become an independent one. If they do, we down here should do all we can to help ensure the transition is as smooth and as painless as possible.
Cameron promised the country a referendum and delivered one. He then said that irrespective of the result he would stay as PM and implement the will of the people. He was crystal clear about that. If currently there is an absence of a detailed plan for leaving it's Cameron's fault alone.
That was before he was rubbished by a bunch of charlatans and snake oil salesmen.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
Do keep living in fantasy world... Watch how the markets react tomorrow to this weekends shitstorm.....
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
Because the campaigns are not finished by any chalk. Before A50 is signed the remainers can and will and indeed should point to every iterative consequence that flows from this vote.
The people have been lied to and deceived - that will become increasingly obvious to all.
They've made their decisions. Either they're grown up enough to be entitled to a vote or they're not. Thursday saw the biggest UK turnout in British polls since 1992: people wanted to be engaged in a way they have not been in a generation. That decision must now be implemented.
There is a question of What Comes Next. It's a complex one and one that it's best to let parliament decide. But Leave means leave.
As for the people being deceived, Project Fear wasn't so called without reason. It's not their fault if they didn't believe it.
Mr Speaker, I thank and completely agree with my Rt Hon Friend, the member for Wakefield Sunlit.
Heseltine concedes on Sky only Boris, Gove and Farage can now lead the country and the negotiations on Brexit given the Leave vote
Holy shit.. we are fecked.. All those who voted leave should remember what they did.. .
What LEAVERS did is vote in a democratic contest, which is there right. If you want to blame anyone, blame Cameron for having the referendum and then losing it.
NO blame for Dave, he had to offer a referendum, that's how he got his majority. Remain lost because of the package of lies told by leave.. too late now to cry over spilt beer..
When its clear that Leave cannot control immigration to the satisfaction of the leave voters, there is going to be one almighty row..
Leading (potentially) the only party in Scotland opposing Sindy2 whilst splitting from the rUK Tories at the same time is not where she expected to be right now
Heseltine concedes on Sky only Boris, Gove and Farage can now lead the country and the negotiations on Brexit given the Leave vote
Holy shit.. we are fecked.. All those who voted leave should remember what they did.. .
What LEAVERS did is vote in a democratic contest, which is there right. If you want to blame anyone, blame Cameron for having the referendum and then losing it.
What's to blame? Gove would make an immeasurably better PM than Cameron in my opinion. He also had a fairly good EUref campaign and did well when exposed to a public who had never heard of him.
Heseltine concedes on Sky only Boris, Gove and Farage can now lead the country and the negotiations on Brexit given the Leave vote
Holy shit.. we are fecked.. All those who voted leave should remember what they did.. .
What LEAVERS did is vote in a democratic contest, which is there right. If you want to blame anyone, blame Cameron for having the referendum and then losing it.
NO blame for Dave, he had to offer a referendum, that's how he got his majority. Remain lost because of the package of lies told by leave.. too late now to cry over spilt beer..
When its clear that Leave cannot control immigration to the satisfaction of the leave voters, there is going to be one almighty row..
Cameron was playing Russian Roulette with the electorate... And lost!
I think there is a real risk that Remainers in power may take decisions (or do nothing) so that it actively harms Britain. Then they can point at the 'problems' just to say 'told you so'. Then use any excuse whatsoever not to implement Brexit when opinion swings behind them.
You cannot be serious.
I do not trust any remainer to do what is in this country's interest, they are servile to the EU. That's why people voted Leave.
I thought the idea was that we should now all try to come together. You seem to be off message.
Not sure they've been mentioned, but two interesting polls. A second referendum is rejected by just 50% - 39 want one, 11% aren't sure. And a Scottish poll shows 59% for Scottish independence.
As for Labour, we shall see - as I predicted, this week will see the organised assault. But Corbyn will simply shgrug off stages 1 and 2 and then we'll have a leadership contest, for which it's not clear that any challenger is in a position to win. But it's certainly showdown time.
Panelbase has it 52% to 48% for independence in Scotland but independence is inevitable, Brexit was a vote for English nationalism almost as much as against the EU
It's far too early to jump to conclusions on Scotland.
The trend is clear
It really isn't because the supposed new question has never been asked.
"Do you wish to leave the UK to get your law dictated by Brussels?"
'Do you wish to be a member of a union that dictates your foreign policy, military actions, immigration policy, the siting of nuclear weapons on your territory, 2/3 of your taxation, 3/4 of your welfare policy and whether or not you're a member of the EU?'
Cameron promised the country a referendum and delivered one. He then said that irrespective of the result he would stay as PM and implement the will of the people. He was crystal clear about that. If currently there is an absence of a detailed plan for leaving it's Cameron's fault alone.
That was before he was rubbished by a bunch of charlatans and snake oil salesmen.
Instead, as we watch the City decamp to the Eurozone, Johnson and Gove are ultimately going to have to fess up to the British people that it was all a game of political bait and switch that got out of hand, there was no plan, that they didn't appreciate the magnitude of the consequences for our economy, and that we simply can't afford to spend the next dozen years untangling our affairs from Europe.
Buffoons, the both of them.
Christ on a bike do we really have to spell it out in words of one syllable ?
Johnson is not in the government and may well never be in the government, Gove is Justice Secretary, but may well not be on Monday, if the Tories elect say May as the next PM neither of them will be responsible for anything.
There is no "Leave" there is no "Remain" the campaigns are over, the people have spoken, it is up to the elected government, currently headed by D. Cameron Esq to make the best of the current situation until such time as either the Tories elect a new leader, or a general election is called.
Do keep living in fantasy world... Watch how the markets react tomorrow to this weekends shitstorm.....
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
Because the campaigns are not finished by any chalk. Before A50 is signed the remainers can and will and indeed should point to every iterative consequence that flows from this vote.
The people have been lied to and deceived - that will become increasingly obvious to all.
They've made their decisions. Either they're grown up enough to be entitled to a vote or they're not. Thursday saw the biggest UK turnout in British polls since 1992: people wanted to be engaged in a way they have not been in a generation. That decision must now be implemented.
There is a question of What Comes Next. It's a complex one and one that it's best to let parliament decide. But Leave means leave.
As for the people being deceived, Project Fear wasn't so called without reason. It's not their fault if they didn't believe it.
Shall we wait and see? Petrol back up at £1.30, interest rate rises, the £ at E1.15 and the FTSE back at 5200 will wake a few folk up.
On Daily Politics Scotland (only just catching up, apologies if already posted) Fluffy Mundell refused to commit to blocking a second Indyref.
I think that is good enough to say that the UK government will not try to stop one.
It would be insane to try to. Not only anti-democratic, but also entirely self-defeating - both in Scotland and internationally.
Come, come, Luckyguy and various other PB Brexiteers have said it ain't happening. That's good enough for me.
It makes no sense to me. What would Westminster actually gain from that? It just smacks of some kind of misplaced British/English nationalism. English and Welsh voters have completely changed the union settlement Scots endorsed two years ago. Scots have every right to revisit their decision.
On a side note, Sturgeon is going to run rings round Boris. You are very lucky to have her. I was never a fan, but she has shown extraordinary leadership and political skill since Friday. Now I am deeply envious. Good luck to you all.
Thanks. I realise things are not turning out the way you might want, so your good opinion is all the more appreciated.
In a strange kind of way I am enjoying it. The UK that was is no more and it's not coming back. Thursday changed everything. It's time for England to sort itself out and I think that we may be at the start of that. I am still not fully convinced that we will actually leave the EU.
I genuinely wish you the very best of luck. I love Scotland and will enjoy visiting it in the future. It will not be a foreign country ever to me. But it is clear that Scottish voters have every right to decide whether it should become an independent one. If they do, we down here should do all we can to help ensure the transition is as smooth and as painless as possible.
Oddly like you SO I still dont believe we'll leave. Cameron was stupid to reject associate membership which is something most brits would vote for. I suspect we'll end up with a classic fudge. Watching the Germans theyre slowly realisng they have a series of problems too. If Cameron had stayed in place I think we'd be heading for EUref 2 by now but he legged it.
"13.59: Momentum have called for an Emergency Action to keep Corbyn as leader. They have e-mailed party members asking them to protest outside Parliament tomorrow at 6pm during the Parliamentary Labour Party meeting. The e-mail reads as follows:
'The future is uncertain. After a Brexit vote we are in a time of national crisis, Cameron has resigned and we will likely have a general election with the potential of Britain lurching yet further to the right.
A small number of Labour MPs are using this as an opportunity to oust Jeremy, disrespect the Labour membership who elected him and to disregard our movement for a new kind of politics.
We cannot let this undemocratic behaviour succeed.
Join us at 6 pm outside Parliament tomorrow, Monday 27 June.
The Parliamentary Labour Party will be meeting inside, so let’s make sure they can hear us, the Labour Party members and voters outside.'"
Comments
I wouldn't bother. We may have to wait until they've finished the grieving process.
Dear Remainers ...
(1) Leave won.
(2) There will not be another referendum.
(3) The PM is a Mr David Cameron.
(4) The Tooth Fairy does not exist.
(5) It may seem like the end of the world, but Bunnies can and will go to France.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/747048827970953216
We are just waking up to the despicable people we have had (and temporarily still do) at the helm of our country.
I have said that Cameron and Osborne were not for Britain's interests until I'm blue in the face, and taken all the brickbats. I am consistently proven correct.
In Scotland, Brussels trumps London, it would seem.
Why should Cameron take responsibility for an outcome he passionately opposed. The people have spoken but I'd be highly surprised if they get the outcome they expect.
Because the campaigns are not finished by any chalk. Before A50 is signed the remainers can and will and indeed should point to every iterative consequence that flows from this vote.
The people have been lied to and deceived - that will become increasingly obvious to all.
@RichardT and, yes, you are right, the issue is really lack of leadership and decisiveness rather than thinking.
On a side note, Sturgeon is going to run rings round Boris. You are very lucky to have her. I was never a fan, but she has shown extraordinary leadership and political skill since Friday. Now I am deeply envious. Good luck to you all.
He has left no contingency plan. And he has created a months long interregnum that all the latent centrifugal forces in the UK are going to exploit.
He is going to sit, powerless, in No10 while an almighty cock up spreads and spreads.
And its all due to his unthinking response following a surprise result on top of a sleepless night.
“because I'd be quite good at it”. - The man is lightweight.
The governing party can't respond like a party of opposition to an unexpected change in leadership.
Major sorted this out in 14d in 1995.
Useless dave..
She would become Queen of England and Queen of Scotland so both would revert to the original numbering?
No real clue to be honest but this seems reasonable.
Ah, but Mr Meeks explained yesterday that areas people think of as 'real' London voted more like 2 to 1, so that's ok.
Cameron (and assuredly Sam) can't wait to quit No 10 tomorrow: if serious pressure were applied for him to go earlier than October, I doubt he would resist. But would it be wise?
As for the leadership election. He is an unscrupulous, indolent, copper-bottomed s**t, but Johnson will likely get my vote. And my unflinching loyalty (you know the Jenkin, IDS, Davis, Bone variety) thereafter: eventually, we will take back control.
Good day
Seriously, find a new line. This one is you repeatedly bashing your brains out on a logical brick wall. It's genuinely uncomfortable to witness.
On Labour, not my specialism, but Tom Watson well placed is he? That'll be Tom Watson one of the MPs in my home town West Brom? Check out the EU ref result in Sandwell and see Labour's problem.
BECAUSE HE IS THE PRIME MINISTER.
I realise things are not turning out the way you might want, so your good opinion is all the more appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu2iv-vMKT8
https://twitter.com/MeanwhileScotia/status/747036667144445953
Which would also mean joining the Euro.
How bad would things need to be to rejoin after years of painful negotiations, and how long would it take to get back in and at what price, if it is even manageable?
There is a question of What Comes Next. It's a complex one and one that it's best to let parliament decide. But Leave means leave.
As for the people being deceived, Project Fear wasn't so called without reason. It's not their fault if they didn't believe it.
For many Leavers an independant Scotland has already been priced in.
Most people are sensible and will calm down as events unfold and unknowns become known.
'The future is uncertain. After a Brexit vote we are in a time of national crisis, Cameron has resigned and we will likely have a general election with the potential of Britain lurching yet further to the right.
A small number of Labour MPs are using this as an opportunity to oust Jeremy, disrespect the Labour membership who elected him and to disregard our movement for a new kind of politics.
We cannot let this undemocratic behaviour succeed.
Join us at 6 pm outside Parliament tomorrow, Monday 27 June.
The Parliamentary Labour Party will be meeting inside, so let’s make sure they can hear us, the Labour Party members and voters outside.'"
I genuinely wish you the very best of luck. I love Scotland and will enjoy visiting it in the future. It will not be a foreign country ever to me. But it is clear that Scottish voters have every right to decide whether it should become an independent one. If they do, we down here should do all we can to help ensure the transition is as smooth and as painless as possible.
And most brexiteers on here.
When its clear that Leave cannot control immigration to the satisfaction of the leave voters, there is going to be one almighty row..
I sense division in the Scottish Tories and her No Surrender approach is not as popular as it was.