The Francophonie is a stagnant intellectual backwater in comparison. And belatedly this is now showing up in the food, which has retreated into some weird cul de sac of YUK.
Yeah, but I think that's a relatively short-term loss of confidence. After all, anyone looking at the UK in (say) 1975 would have concluded we were completely finished. In fact, many said so at the time.
Sorry to be brusque but you have to compare with 2012.
Nope. Comparative point in the last election cycle is 2011.
You're just wrong. And being very partisan.
Every news outlet will be comparing with 2012.
"Every news outlet" also predicted a hung parliament last year.
On early signs, Labour are going to fare poorly even compared to 2011. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's a statement of the obvious that the only relevant comparisons are the corresponding points in the electoral cycle. Your argument is like saying you compare the state of the Premier League table in the August of a new season compared to the December of the previous season.
Just because they called it wrong, doesn't make their comparison incorrect.
It would actually be comparing a one third of the premier league to another third. Some areas that voted in 2011 wont be voting in today, and vice versa.
It's a double comparison. You work out the base metric with reference to the last point the seats were contested ie 2012. This gives you something like "Opposition party down 300" which you can then compare with opposition parties' performances a year after a General Election.
Most surprising & underrated meal...in Porto, placed called O Paparico. Would place it above any of the top restaurants have eaten at in the UK (which without trying to do a poor seanT impression includes a fair number that are consistently ranked on those snobbish lists)
Yes, there's a truth in that. In some respects France has just been naturally overtaken by competitors, who learned from her pioneering supremacy, then applied her techniques with greater innovation or resources.
The same happened to the English/British with all the sports we invented. People copied us at football, then, thanks to sheer weight of numbers, we eventually got outstripped - there were bound to be countries which could beat us at football.
Yet the food in France, if I'm not mistaken, is a different case. It isn't just in relative decline (as is the case with the wine) - it's in absolute decline, actively getting a lot worse. Very odd. And rather sad.
I have always found you can eat very well in most French towns with a higher quality of food at a reasonable price than most British cafes, though at the top Michelin starred end the French supremacy may be over. Generally they are friendly, especially if you at least attempt to speak the language. Italy is a great country too but France has Paris, the Mediterrenean climate in the south and lots of history and is the most visited country in the world for a reason
It's simply not true any more, tho. Most French bistros now serve reheated frozen food.
I take no pleasure in this. I used to love going to France and anticipating the food. After this trip, which cements in place an uneasy impression that I'd already formed, I will never do that again. Sad.
It depends what you order too, the seafood in France tends to be excellent and the gesiers salads are always wonderful and I order them whenever they are on the menu
Agree with you on the salade de gesier. But Sean is right - French bistro food has declined massively since I lived in France in the 90s. I was in Lille this last week, bought several sandwiches made with either ficelle or baguette and on each occasion the bread was no better than you'd get at a Pret a manger in the UK or US. What happened to the baguette? It's all now pre-made, take out of the freezer and cook stuff.
Your argument is based on the premise that the "cycle" is defined by the general elections. The 2012 elections were probably more influenced by the ominshambles budget, rather than the fact it was a year from the previous election.
How are you even going to make comparisons in wards where no election took place in 2011?
That goes against political history, though. Every sitting government almost always gets its best results of an electoral cycle in the first year after a General Election -- the only exception was the 1979-83 cycle, where the Falklands Factor pushed Tories to a better performance in 1982 than they got in 1980.
I'm sorry Mike Smithson, as much as I love Lancashire, I am going to have to re-post my love of Italy from earlier in response to an attack on Italian cuisine (unthinkable)
I'm sorry...Italian cuisine is sublime. The simplicity. Provided you stay out of a tourist trap and keep to local trattorias, it is literally impossible to eat or drink badly in Italy.
And it's cheap.
Or you could go somewhere else. Why?
It's all true. Not as refined as French at its best but that's its charm. You can go anywhere and its lively fun and simple and it's uniformly good. Sometimes it feels like you've crept into a fellini film and that's when it's at its best. You're very lucky. So much better than Spain
I doubt you have seen much of Spain to say that, Roger. Like France. I'd say the further west you go in France the better it gets, though the Jura is a special place. If you don't eat and drink well in Gascony or Brittany, say, you are doing something very wrong.
Excellent seafood in Brittany, I quite agree.
France is like Britain in the Seventies, looking rather dogeared but with strong roots that are ripe for revival.
Yes, it's a sad place right now. Kind of defeated. But France is too great a country not to bounce back.
The potential of France is still enormous. If she ever gets her act together...
That said the French language is now a major problem for France and I'm not sure how it is solved. They are trapped in a Francophone bubble with little understanding of the world beyond.
We forget how simply speaking English gives us instant and powerful access to the most dynamic ideas, memes, culture, concepts. As English speakers we are constantly challenged by the new, whether it is from America or India, Singapore or Hong Kong, Oz or South Africa or London or New York (the two paramount world cities). It's not always for the best, but it always keeps up on our mettle.
The Francophonie is a stagnant intellectual backwater in comparison. And belatedly this is now showing up in the food, which has retreated into some weird cul de sac of YUK.
Hong Kong is full of young French people these days, all speaking good English. I think the younger generation there is much less Francophone than their elders. They seem much more outward-looking.
Ditto in Dubai, a large and growing French population here, as you say Anglophone and with an international outlook on life.
Your argument is based on the premise that the "cycle" is defined by the general elections. The 2012 elections were probably more influenced by the ominshambles budget, rather than the fact it was a year from the previous election.
How are you even going to make comparisons in wards where no election took place in 2011?
That goes against political history, though. Every sitting government almost always gets its best results of an electoral cycle in the first year after a General Election -- the only exception was the 1979-83 cycle, where the Falklands Factor pushed Tories to a better performance in 1982 than they got in 1980.
Yeah, so as JohnLilburne states, you compare the net gains/losses to that year, you don't compare the vote share in each individual seats to that year (you can't do that in a lot of cases in any case).
I take no pleasure in this. I used to love going to France and anticipating the food. After this trip, which cements in place an uneasy impression that I'd already formed, I will never do that again. Sad.
It depends what you order too, the seafood in France tends to be excellent and the gesiers salads are always wonderful and I order them whenever they are on the menu
Agree with you on the salade de gesier. But Sean is right - French bistro food has declined massively since I lived in France in the 90s. I was in Lille this last week, bought several sandwiches made with either ficelle or baguette and on each occasion the bread was no better than you'd get at a Pret a manger in the UK or US. What happened to the baguette? It's all now pre-made, take out of the freezer and cook stuff.
Actually, Pret a Manger is a better place to eat than many cafes in France, these days. You are guaranteed some interesting salads, decent soups, miso, sushi, etc.
And talking of sarnies, I had a "Finest" roast beef sandwich from Tesco the other day which was absolutely sublime. I'm not joking. Possibly the best sandwich I've ever eaten. I think it might have been this one:
Now hang on, I see people are judging French food by experiences in Dieppe or Normandy.
Err, no.
Normandy isn't in France? I know it shouldn't be but I am fairly sure it is.
As I said in my first post I can only judge but what I have experienced and that is Normandy and the old battlefields and the food in the standard eateries is, in the main, poor. I can get better and for a similar price at anyone of half a dozen pubs within a few miles of my home.
Sure, Normandy is in France, just as Sunderland is in England. (To be fair to the Normands, the food isn't that bad).
Indeed it isn't always that bad, as said at least twice, there are some gems where the food is top notch. We have a list of places that we use when ever we are over there, a list, I might say, that has shrunk over recent years (though the "Tripe a la mode de Caen" place is still thankfully unchanged).
But it is the average I am talking about. Pull up at a random French eatery and what do you get compared to a random English eatery. In my experience you have a better chance of getting a decent meal in England than in France,
My neighbour, who I alluded to above, has vastly more experience in France than I do. He was born there for a start and maintains a flat in Paris as well as the family house in Champagne. If he reckons, as he does, that French restaurants have lost the plot and are too often serving up the Frog equivalent of Brake Bros meals and the French government are moving to ensure their consumers know, well, who am I to argue.
Your argument is based on the premise that the "cycle" is defined by the general elections. The 2012 elections were probably more influenced by the ominshambles budget, rather than the fact it was a year from the previous election.
How are you even going to make comparisons in wards where no election took place in 2011?
That goes against political history, though. Every sitting government almost always gets its best results of an electoral cycle in the first year after a General Election -- the only exception was the 1979-83 cycle, where the Falklands Factor pushed Tories to a better performance in 1982 than they got in 1980.
Yeah, so as JohnLilburne states, you compare the net gains/losses to that year, you don't compare the vote share in each individual seats to that year (you can't do that in a lot of cases in any case).
Nope, gains/losses are not a useful indicator either. On that measure, William Hague gained more council seats as Leader Of The Opposition overall than David Cameron did!
Real voteshares with comparative points in the electoral cycle are the ONLY historically useful indicator of predicting General Election results.
Hong Kong is full of young French people these days, all speaking good English. I think the younger generation there is much less Francophone than their elders. They seem much more outward-looking.
I'd agree. In the 90s, finding a French person speaking English outside of international business, diplomacy or science was hard to do. In this trip to Lille, hardly the cosmopolitan hub of France, I was struck by the fact that almost everyone in the hospitality industry (hotels, restaurants, coffee shops and sanwicheries, spoke English and WANTED to practice it!!! Even the people at the rail station ticket counter and information booth spoke English, I was stunned.
@mattforde: Also, hearing that Labour leadership are trying to frame London as a "referendum on Jeremy Corbyn". They're not saying that about Scotland.
I'm in the very awkward position of wanting to see Labour have a terrible night, but desperate for Corbyn to keep his job.
The save ed campaign will have to reform to assist with corbyn keeping his job. Luckily for you labour are terrible at getting rid of leaders.
I think a challenge to Corbyn now may result in him getting re-elected, thus strengthening his position and that of his cronies still further.
Short of the entire front bench resigning and the Labour selectorate being limited to those on Tony Blair's Christmas card list it's difficult to see them shifting him, no matter how bad it gets.
Look at Brown in 2008. Far worse poll ratings than Corbyn (believe it got to 18%, he remembers gleefully) and dreadful election results but they still wouldn't remove him. Corbyn's allies are more ideologically driven than Brown's and will not let him be moved.
The next four years are going to be incredibly entertaining, if nothing else.
Hong Kong is full of young French people these days, all speaking good English. I think the younger generation there is much less Francophone than their elders. They seem much more outward-looking.
I'd agree. In the 90s, finding a French person speaking English outside of international business, diplomacy or science was hard to do. In this trip to Lille, hardly the cosmopolitan hub of France, I was struck by the fact that almost everyone in the hospitality industry (hotels, restaurants, coffee shops and sanwicheries, spoke English and WANTED to practice it!!! Even the people at the rail station ticket counter and information booth spoke English, I was stunned.
Rijsel (Lille) is of course historically Dutch-speaking so they may be less keen on French than most French people. The French have a woeful record on deliberately destroying regional languages.
As a Labour Member this is like watching West Ham under Glenn roeder or avram grant. You end up wanting to lose as badly as possible so they get fired. Unfortunately we don't appear to have slaven bilic (or even sam allardyce) waiting in the wings.
That reminds me of a Spurs fan I used to know (25 years ago) who said to me once "Any true fan likes to see his team get really thrashed." Apparently losing 1-0 is annoying, losing 7-0 is like jumping naked into the Baltic in December, or something.
Anyway, the best thing for Labour tonight would be a cataclysm to severe that it brought Corbyn's reign to an end. That seems unlikely though. It will be bad but not *quite* that bad enough.
As to Slaven Bilic, he is there. The board won't appoint him. Sack the board!
As a Labour Member this is like watching West Ham under Glenn roeder or avram grant. You end up wanting to lose as badly as possible so they get fired. Unfortunately we don't appear to have slaven bilic (or even sam allardyce) waiting in the wings.
That reminds me of a Spurs fan I used to know (25 years ago) who said to me once "Any true fan likes to see his team get really thrashed." Apparently losing 1-0 is annoying, losing 7-0 is like jumping naked into the Baltic in December, or something.
Anyway, the best thing for Labour tonight would be a cataclysm to severe that it brought Corbyn's reign to an end. That seems unlikely though. It will be bad but not *quite* that bad enough.
As to Slaven Bilic, he is there. The board won't appoint him. Sack the board!
The members chose this. They love Corbyn. It's the voters who are wrong. Labour has many more crushing defeats to go before the hard left loses its control of the Stupid party.
@JackTindale: "And if you're a member of Scottish Labour and don't want to find out the results of the election, please bury your head in your hands now."
Labour losing control of Wales isn't the most outlandish event.
Not least as they don't control it now (30/60 seats). But I think UKIP are going to make a serious impact in a number of places, as the referendum casts its shadow - same sort of thing as we saw in Scotland with pro-independnece voters going SNP as a natural corollary.
@BraidenHT: Ok. Most forensic stuff yet. SNP in most Glasgow seats 55% & above. Pollok 62%. Maryhill 62%. Labour averaging around 25% so far. Wow. #sp16
Your argument is based on the premise that the "cycle" is defined by the general elections. The 2012 elections were probably more influenced by the ominshambles budget, rather than the fact it was a year from the previous election.
How are you even going to make comparisons in wards where no election took place in 2011?
That goes against political history, though. Every sitting government almost always gets its best results of an electoral cycle in the first year after a General Election -- the only exception was the 1979-83 cycle, where the Falklands Factor pushed Tories to a better performance in 1982 than they got in 1980.
You're sounding like Hunchman.
This electoral cycle rubbish is also pointless because only recently did we regularise the general elections to every 5 years.
You want to compare to 2011 because comparison to 2012, when the same wards and councils were contested and thus the obvious comparator, is going to make Labour look like a hopeless political party.
Hong Kong is full of young French people these days, all speaking good English. I think the younger generation there is much less Francophone than their elders. They seem much more outward-looking.
I'd agree. In the 90s, finding a French person speaking English outside of international business, diplomacy or science was hard to do. In this trip to Lille, hardly the cosmopolitan hub of France, I was struck by the fact that almost everyone in the hospitality industry (hotels, restaurants, coffee shops and sanwicheries, spoke English and WANTED to practice it!!! Even the people at the rail station ticket counter and information booth spoke English, I was stunned.
Also agreed (tho the English spoken down here in the Rhone Valley is still lamentable.
The French are certainly friendlier and keener to please. They've lost the last of that aloofness, the inbred sense of superiority. Decline has maybe made them nicer. A fine irony.
At least the regional cheeses are still very French and superb!
@BraidenHT: Ok. Most forensic stuff yet. SNP in most Glasgow seats 55% & above. Pollok 62%. Maryhill 62%. Labour averaging around 25% so far. Wow. #sp16
And McDonnell is trying to say there will be an increasing share of the vote. That is almost unbelievable.
John McDonnell on BBC 1 refusing to elaborate on why Labour are going to lose seats. Only willing to say it is complex. He must have said complex about 100 times in just a few minutes.
I'm in the very awkward position of wanting to see Labour have a terrible night, but desperate for Corbyn to keep his job.
A Khan win is all he needs
London is all Corbyn cares about. Which is just as well, as everywhere else is looking absolutely dire for Labour!
Absolutely - and the more they big up that win the easier writing the 2020 Tory election playbook will be.
Posters in the midland 'marginals': Labour isn't working in Birmingham, Vote Conservative. Posters in Scotland: Labour isn't working in Scotland, Vote Conservative to save the Union Posters in the South: Labour Loves London, Vote Conservative Posters in the North: Like London, you'll Love Labour
Posters everywhere. Labour is a London party, for everywhere else, Vote Conservative
Comments
But they said the same last year at the beginning of the night
Where is France's Maggie, though?
Labour in danger of losing majority on Derby council - all early signs tonight are bad.
That's Scotland
Iain Martin Retweeted
Cllr John Ferrett @John_Ferrett · 8m8 minutes ago
Labour vote is collapsing to UKIP in Portsmouth #corbyneffect
https://twitter.com/UKGE2020/status/728351712679956480
18% swing
But it is the average I am talking about. Pull up at a random French eatery and what do you get compared to a random English eatery. In my experience you have a better chance of getting a decent meal in England than in France,
My neighbour, who I alluded to above, has vastly more experience in France than I do. He was born there for a start and maintains a flat in Paris as well as the family house in Champagne. If he reckons, as he does, that French restaurants have lost the plot and are too often serving up the Frog equivalent of Brake Bros meals and the French government are moving to ensure their consumers know, well, who am I to argue.
Real voteshares with comparative points in the electoral cycle are the ONLY historically useful indicator of predicting General Election results.
2011 778
2012 170
2014 91
2015 1558 ( Lib Dems 4th UKIP 2nd )
G'night.
Short of the entire front bench resigning and the Labour selectorate being limited to those on Tony Blair's Christmas card list it's difficult to see them shifting him, no matter how bad it gets.
Look at Brown in 2008. Far worse poll ratings than Corbyn (believe it got to 18%, he remembers gleefully) and dreadful election results but they still wouldn't remove him. Corbyn's allies are more ideologically driven than Brown's and will not let him be moved.
The next four years are going to be incredibly entertaining, if nothing else.
Anyway, the best thing for Labour tonight would be a cataclysm to severe that it brought Corbyn's reign to an end. That seems unlikely though. It will be bad but not *quite* that bad enough.
As to Slaven Bilic, he is there. The board won't appoint him. Sack the board!
Wish the BBC had added the actual majority on their graphics when they listed the marginal/safe seats in order of majority.
Native seakers of other languages get America PLUS their own culture.
1 Timothy 5:23
Lab +1
LD +1
Ind -2
and now 2015
This electoral cycle rubbish is also pointless because only recently did we regularise the general elections to every 5 years.
You want to compare to 2011 because comparison to 2012, when the same wards and councils were contested and thus the obvious comparator, is going to make Labour look like a hopeless political party.
A pity because it'll give Corbyn a small hillock of high ground which could become the story of the elction.
Points to a Tory majority of 44 in 2020.
Where in the Rhone?
https://twitter.com/TextorMark/status/728361512901877760
"Don't judge us at this election" says John McDonnell. I have a feeling that might be wishful thinking
That's like not judging a F1 driver by his lap times.
Posters in the midland 'marginals': Labour isn't working in Birmingham, Vote Conservative.
Posters in Scotland: Labour isn't working in Scotland, Vote Conservative to save the Union
Posters in the South: Labour Loves London, Vote Conservative
Posters in the North: Like London, you'll Love Labour
Posters everywhere. Labour is a London party, for everywhere else, Vote Conservative
I love the costumes and hair of the forgotten acts and songs, and the gawky audience. A great window into the past.