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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RobD said:

    Lowlander said:

    MaxPB said:

    Gordon Bennet the SNP just don't get it.

    They don't get that parliament is supposed to be a little club where greasy pole climbers can backslap each other across the benches.

    Good. This appalling display of fawning over Cameron is a disgrace to democracy. An undeserved theatre show of praise for a man whose time in office has achieved virtually nothing.

    Indeed, the SNP do not "get" that Parliament is theatre and not a legislature and despite that the British people are let down so badly by their elected representatives from the old, mainstream parties. They are right to find it disgusting, it is Britains greatest shame.
    lol. Disgrace to democracy? Alright.
    Like the nodding dogs of Holyrood are exemplars.....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Sean_F said:

    Brom said:

    Regarding May's cabinet and I say this as someone with a deep dislike of Amber Rudd after her shouting and overly personal referendum appearance, but would it be a smart move putting someone in a big 4 job with a majority less than 5k in a seat that has changing Labour friendly demographics?
    If Labour got their act together for a bit in 2020 then Hastings (Rudd's seat) would arguably be in their top 40 targets and a future Portillo/Ed Balls moment given her grating personality.

    TBH, I'm surprised that Hastings has a Conservative lead as large as 5,000.

    I'd have expected it to go the same way as Brighton & Hove.
    It's Hastings & Rye, with quite a large rural chunk. Hastings town is very much Labour, but the hinterland is solid blue. She did very well to increase her majority so much - the expectation amongst local Tories was that she was in danger of losing her seat.
    It was more than an expectation. The local Labour candidate was pretty certain she'd win and it shows when you watch the declaration.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ITV’s Robert Peston thinks Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will be appointed chancellor by Theresa May.

    ITV News (@itvnews) July 13, 2016

    (update) Et al’ – any idea when the procession to No10 is likely to start ?

    15/03/2013 Single To Win
    Philip Hammond @ 14/1
    Next Chancellor
    Next Chancellor £6.00 Pending

    :o
    Philip Hammond is likewise someone who looks to be well-rewarded for doing very little.
    He just plain looks like a chancellor though !
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pong said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    Jo Maugham QC ‏@JolyonMaugham 5m5 minutes ago
    Don't choke on your quinoa, Corbyn fans, but @OwenSmith_MP is basically even money on Betfair to beat him.

    he's not though is he? he's even money to be next Labour leader which is a different market.
    When they price up a labour leadership election market Corbyn will be odds on I would assume.

    @Pong matched Corbyn at 11-10, remarkably in that market.

    @Pong knows his onions.
    I don't have any inside info on this, but my hunch is JC at evens or above is good value - and I've taken a moderate position.

    I treat my own hunches with caution, though!

    I need to get my head around who the competitive selectorate thing will favour, and the extent of the advantage.

    Definitely doesn't favour Corbyn.

    Most of £3ers will not be paying £25 IMO

    I am pessimistic about Jezza after the "when is a member not a member when they joined after mid January" rule and the £25 thing.

    Hearing moves to stop affiliates sign up loop hole too.

    The Blairite, red Tory scum are certainly on the affiliate loopholes. But whether they will be able to close them all if another matter. That said, you don't have to be a Corbyn cultist to use them.

    True.

    Still undemocratic to freeze out some poor Labour Remainer who has been a member since January working his butt off through the Referndum IMO
    Can you be a member and a registered supporter at the same time?
    Not unless you are naughty
    Can you quit as a member and become a registered supporter? :p
    I understand there is a way of getting 3 votes.

    I have no idea if it works. I am happy with the one each official route.

    Labour has clarified those who joined after 12/1/16 can become registered supporters for £25
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    perdix said:

    ITV’s Robert Peston thinks Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will be appointed chancellor by Theresa May.

    ITV News (@itvnews) July 13, 2016

    Why does he think that? Has he been told by "sources close to Theresa May" or is he just passing on tea-room gossip?
    When Hammond was at the MOD his nickname was "Mr Spreadsheet". So perhaps a fitting appointment.

    I'm really warming to him now :)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @LOS_Fisher: NEW: Jeremy Corbyn this morning refused the resignations of all 9 jnr whips, who offered to quit as backing leadership challengers, I'm told

    @LOS_Fisher: A Labour whip on Corbyn's refusal this morning of their resignation: "It just shows how weak he is."
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Pulpstar said:

    Corbyn has massive name recognition advantage over Eagles/Smith too. Indeed Smith has to work his way up from almost zero on that point.

    I still don't believe this is the lineup.

    It's like a pantomime horse versus Lazarus, for the leadership of the Labour Party.

    Freakish. Whimsical. Doomed.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited July 2016
    AndyJS said:

    It was more than an expectation. The local Labour candidate was pretty certain she'd win and it shows when you watch the declaration.

    It was one of my losing bets (but one I was delighted to lose) on an otherwise highly profitable night!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    @bigjohnowls You should be able to work out quite quickly by elimination who voted which way in the NEC meetings on the various votes. Then the membership can act accordingly.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    AndyJS said:

    Sean_F said:

    Brom said:

    Regarding May's cabinet and I say this as someone with a deep dislike of Amber Rudd after her shouting and overly personal referendum appearance, but would it be a smart move putting someone in a big 4 job with a majority less than 5k in a seat that has changing Labour friendly demographics?
    If Labour got their act together for a bit in 2020 then Hastings (Rudd's seat) would arguably be in their top 40 targets and a future Portillo/Ed Balls moment given her grating personality.

    TBH, I'm surprised that Hastings has a Conservative lead as large as 5,000.

    I'd have expected it to go the same way as Brighton & Hove.
    It's Hastings & Rye, with quite a large rural chunk. Hastings town is very much Labour, but the hinterland is solid blue. She did very well to increase her majority so much - the expectation amongst local Tories was that she was in danger of losing her seat.
    It was more than an expectation. The local Labour candidate was pretty certain she'd win and it shows when you watch the declaration.
    There are a number of seats with an urban core, where the inclusion of outlying villages or small towns is crucial to Conservative chances. I think that's how the Conservatives held on in Bradford and Leeds, in local elections, whereas they vanished from Liverpool and Manchester.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    @MyBurningEars - I don't disagree. We just don't know at this stage how a May government is going to differ from a Cameron one. I think we can be very sure that the style will be very different, but beyond that it's hard to know. We might get a bit more of a clue from the appointments she makes.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690

    From Spain - as my Cs contact in Barcelona told me last night: they will abstain on a second vote for the inauguration of Rajoy as PM. That means a minority PP government heavily dependent on Cs support, but no coalition.

    Riviera said yesterday that there would be no third election, which chimes very much with that.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Charles said:

    I changed my picture as I'm in mourning.

    I'm hopeful at least one ex Bullingdon boy will be occupying a great office of state.

    George for Foreign Secretary.

    The Buller is irrelevant - a distraction technique.

    It's the Grid that matters...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gridiron_Club_(Oxford_University)

    Was Theresa a member?

    I think The Edmund Burke more revealing....

    It was as a public speaker that May came into her own. She made frequent appearances at the Union but was also an active member of the Edmund Burke Society, an irreverent group that saw itself as the pretension-pricking antidote to the seriousness of university debating. The society would hold its debates on Sunday nights, in the Morris Room at the Union, accompanied by unlimited amounts of port, drunk from tiny glasses. Her peers included Michael Crick, the BBC journalist, and Damian Green...

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/27/theresa-may-profile-beyond-the-public-image

    (Its wrong about Crick...., and the glasses weren't 'tiny'....)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    nunu said:

    Why is Sarah Wollaston a Tory? What does she believe in apart from the NHS? What makes her a Conservative?

    You was chosen via an open primary as a way of getting rid of a stubborn incumbent LibDem.

    The plan worked. Albeit, she's half way between a Conservative and a LibDem.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?

    Betfair Sports have Home Sec
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    If we see Red UKIP for the North, I don't think it can be hypercapitalist libertarian in the shires. Perhaps it can play up different aspects in different areas - One Nation, social democratic patriotism in the north, nostalgic, "we'll subsidise the nice old-fashioned things so they don't get swept away by modernity" patriotic in the shires. But I do find it hard to see UKIP appealing to the small-l liberal segment in any of their likely iterations.

    I am fairly unconvinced there are that many liberals around in the traditional sense of the word, almost all modern "liberals" are statists. The LDs are (not just quite illiberal but) highly statist in their approach, it's all about spending public money better than Labour. Tories are largely statist as well, they do it more efficiently than the left, but their approach is still using the power of the state to "make things better" not encouraging people to do it themselves. Most of the public seem to enjoy being infantilised and spoon fed by the state, the number who say "why does the government do something" rather than "why doesn't the government empower me to do something" is quite marked.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,197

    RobD said:

    Lowlander said:

    MaxPB said:

    Gordon Bennet the SNP just don't get it.

    They don't get that parliament is supposed to be a little club where greasy pole climbers can backslap each other across the benches.

    Good. This appalling display of fawning over Cameron is a disgrace to democracy. An undeserved theatre show of praise for a man whose time in office has achieved virtually nothing.

    Indeed, the SNP do not "get" that Parliament is theatre and not a legislature and despite that the British people are let down so badly by their elected representatives from the old, mainstream parties. They are right to find it disgusting, it is Britains greatest shame.
    lol. Disgrace to democracy? Alright.
    Like the nodding dogs of Holyrood are exemplars.....
    Tories everywhere are just the same, especially the London sockpuppet sub regional Scottish group
  • PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    @MyBurningEars - I don't disagree. We just don't know at this stage how a May government is going to differ from a Cameron one. I think we can be very sure that the style will be very different, but beyond that it's hard to know. We might get a bit more of a clue from the appointments she makes.

    If she does try to balance brexit with remain, expect the cabinet to be noticeably more right-wing than Cameron's and Major's. She can probably get away with centrist freedom as Eurosceptics wont dare risk any rebellion scuppering brexit - not sure how the pro-Europeans will react though.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    edited July 2016

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?

    Betfair Sports have Home Sec
    exchange has both finally (but no Amber Rudd :P)

    Last night PP and Ladbrokes had similar
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    edited July 2016

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?

    Betfair Sports have Home Sec
    I've put 65 pence (Max !) on Justine Greening at 20-1. Rumours of jobs for the girls and all that good stuff.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Scott_P said:

    @LOS_Fisher: NEW: Jeremy Corbyn this morning refused the resignations of all 9 jnr whips, who offered to quit as backing leadership challengers, I'm told

    @LOS_Fisher: A Labour whip on Corbyn's refusal this morning of their resignation: "It just shows how weak he is."

    It really is a farce Scott. I should imagine many Tories on here are loving the spectacle – although to be fair a great many of the decent Conservative folk on here think it's a complete affront to the entire concept of parliamentary democracy!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    Do Labour MPs need to be reselected by their constituency parties *innocent face* ?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,518
    Pulpstar said:

    perdix said:

    ITV’s Robert Peston thinks Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will be appointed chancellor by Theresa May.

    ITV News (@itvnews) July 13, 2016

    Why does he think that? Has he been told by "sources close to Theresa May" or is he just passing on tea-room gossip?
    When Hammond was at the MOD his nickname was "Mr Spreadsheet". So perhaps a fitting appointment.

    I'm really warming to him now :)
    Indeed, he must be a betting man, no other way to keep track of them otherwise!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?

    Betfair Sports have Home Sec
    I've put 65 pence (Max !) on Justine Greening at 20-1. Rumours of jobs for the girls and all that good stuff.
    I have £10 on Amber Rudd at 10/1, couldn't help it. Should be between 2/1 and 3/1 I think. Alas no way of cashing out.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Betfair have just added Corbyn to their Labour leadership candidates:

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.125575779
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,895

    RodCrosby said:

    Oh dear... Sky News keeping saying Maria Eagle is challenging for the Labour Leadership

    When a major news network can't remember who Angela Eagle is then it is clear that she really hasn't made any impact....

    They were talking about Owen Jones joining the race this morning...

    You really wouldn't want to bet against Corbyn, would you?
    Reflects very badly on Sky, extremely unprofessional.
    But if either of the current challengers were in any way memorable, Sky reporters/presenters would know who they were and wouldn't make these mistakes,

    Corbyn is being challenged by lightweights.
    So Sky News only reports on well known individuals?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,506

    More encouraging of les autres.

    'WARSAW (Reuters) - The EU must not let Britain profit from leaving the bloc as that could inspire other states to follow suit, European Council President Donald Tusk said, echoing other policymakers in signalling a tough stance in upcoming Brexit negotiations.'

    http://tinyurl.com/htpaze2

    The more the EU behaves like this, the more it seems like a protection racket rather than a voluntary club. None of this is exactly convincing me that we should have remained.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Indigo said:

    If we see Red UKIP for the North, I don't think it can be hypercapitalist libertarian in the shires. Perhaps it can play up different aspects in different areas - One Nation, social democratic patriotism in the north, nostalgic, "we'll subsidise the nice old-fashioned things so they don't get swept away by modernity" patriotic in the shires. But I do find it hard to see UKIP appealing to the small-l liberal segment in any of their likely iterations.

    I am fairly unconvinced there are that many liberals around in the traditional sense of the word, almost all modern "liberals" are statists. The LDs are (not just quite illiberal but) highly statist in their approach, it's all about spending public money better than Labour. Tories are largely statist as well, they do it more efficiently than the left, but their approach is still using the power of the state to "make things better" not encouraging people to do it themselves. Most of the public seem to enjoy being infantilised and spoon fed by the state, the number who say "why does the government do something" rather than "why doesn't the government empower me to do something" is quite marked.
    Quite agree that this is not a common tendency - I think this is why there is such a small market for it politically, with no real party home. The Orange Bookers had a prevalence in the parliamentary party that was not reflected in Lib Dem members - or, as they found to their cost, their voter base. UKIP used to attract some young grassroots libertarians but very little of their influence remains. I'll be mightily surprised if May's Tories turn out to be a suitable home either.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    More encouraging of les autres.

    'WARSAW (Reuters) - The EU must not let Britain profit from leaving the bloc as that could inspire other states to follow suit, European Council President Donald Tusk said, echoing other policymakers in signalling a tough stance in upcoming Brexit negotiations.'

    http://tinyurl.com/htpaze2

    It's probably a better strategy than announcing before the negotiation that they "couldn't conceive of the UK not getting a cushy deal" or that they wanted to "use the negotiations to dock the UK with EEA/EFTA", that has been tried recently with quite variable results ;)
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?

    Betfair Sports have Home Sec
    exchange has both finally (but no Amber Rudd :P)

    Last night PP and Ladbrokes had similar
    If May is astute I think Greening will be preferred to Rudd when it comes to giving a female a high profile job.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    Why is Sarah Wollaston a Tory? What does she believe in apart from the NHS? What makes her a Conservative?

    You was chosen via an open primary as a way of getting rid of a stubborn incumbent LibDem.

    The plan worked. Albeit, she's half way between a Conservative and a LibDem.
    Sarah Wollaston probably swung South Hams from Leave to Remain (it was the only Devon authority to do so, apart from Exeter). I think that Kenneth Clarke carried Rushcliffe for Remain, and Tim Farron carried South Lakeland.

    I think that Michael Gove carried Surrey Heath for Leave, given that similar Stockbroker Belt authorities voted Remain.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?

    Betfair Sports have Home Sec
    exchange has both finally (but no Amber Rudd :P)

    Last night PP and Ladbrokes had similar
    Yes, Amber Rudd should be on there. She has a hell of a lot better chance than some of the names listed!

    I did wonder about the 33/1 on Michael Fallon for Chancellor. I expect it will be Hammond, but if not...?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    They might run out of cash. The elephant in the room is the major financial crisis within the party, which is another reason why they would struggle if May changes her mind on an election.

    They can't raise money until Corbyn goes, but they literally can't afford to take that route to get rid of him.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    Lowlander said:

    MaxPB said:

    Gordon Bennet the SNP just don't get it.

    They don't get that parliament is supposed to be a little club where greasy pole climbers can backslap each other across the benches.

    Good. This appalling display of fawning over Cameron is a disgrace to democracy. An undeserved theatre show of praise for a man whose time in office has achieved virtually nothing.

    Indeed, the SNP do not "get" that Parliament is theatre and not a legislature and despite that the British people are let down so badly by their elected representatives from the old, mainstream parties. They are right to find it disgusting, it is Britains greatest shame.
    lol. Disgrace to democracy? Alright.
    Like the nodding dogs of Holyrood are exemplars.....
    Tories everywhere are just the same, especially the London sockpuppet sub regional Scottish group
    You're including Tartan Tories in that no doubt....who can forget the famous SNP backbench rebellion of.....hang on, it'll come to me....
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    PlatoSaid said:

    JackW said:

    Dirty sleazy kippers on the slide...

    The curse of Plato .. :naughty:
    She has moved to the right of the kippers now floating somewhere near the League of Empire Loyalists.
    All joshing aside - my politics haven't changed. I feel more in common with Gisela than May. Staying in the Tories doesn't fit and I'm happy to be honest about it.

    Ted Heath meet EdM doesn't fit my vision of a successful future.
    Yeah, right.
    Aside from the "EU headbangers", don't underestimate the dissatisfaction of some Tory members/voters/leaners with the idea of an authoritarian, managerialist Conservative government with a social democratic agenda. This doesn't appeal to those on the small-l "live and let live" liberal or libertarian side, those who prefer their creatively destructive capitalism red in tooth and claw, or even just those who are skeptical of the power of bureaucracy and state intervention to improve lives in the intended manner. This is not a huge chunk of the electorate, and they don't have an obvious alternative home to go to. But they may find themselves reduced to reluctant Tory voters holding their noses at the ballot box, and certainly not have great incentive to be a member or activist.
    Oh, indeed. Yet we don't know yet what May's policy platform or premiership will be like.

    Instead, people are judging her on farcical 'she was a remainer' criteria.
    Remain/Leave is going to cast a shadow over all our current MPs. Quite right too.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07ldrbk
    Why should this Remain/Leave continue to cast a shadow and why should it be a good thing? There was a debate and a vote. Continuing to classify people over what side they took in the vote is to continue to look back and that cannot be healthy or useful.
    Because the question was where should our laws be made? Remain MPs wanted the UK to be ruled from Brussels. Impervious to UK voters.
    Sorry, Mr. Dave, are you saying that our soon to be new PM is impervious to UK voters?

    The vote was held Leave won, the new PM has said we will leave. We are all leavers now (except young Darth Eagles)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Brom said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a Foreign Sec / Home Sec market up anywhere ?

    Betfair Sports have Home Sec
    exchange has both finally (but no Amber Rudd :P)

    Last night PP and Ladbrokes had similar
    If May is astute I think Greening will be preferred to Rudd when it comes to giving a female a high profile job.
    Greening might go Foreign Sec ! I can say I was half right if that is the case ;p
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    Danny565 said:

    jonny83 said:

    Cameron led by example and got his party to partake in a standing ovation for Blair, will Corbyn do that? If Corbyn and his closest comrades sit down and the Lab backbenchers stand up it would look very bad, though I doubt Corbyn cares.

    Whether people liked or disliked Blair, does anyone really deny that he was a much more "impactful" PM than Cameron has been?
    I don't usually think of people as "impactful", but if I had to give the label to somebody it would probably be Edward John Smith, RD, RNR (27 January 1850 – 15 April 1912).
    The poor bastard wasn't even on the bridge at the time...
    No, but the ship was still sailing under his orders i.e. too fast in an area known to contain icebergs.
    Standard procedure for the time. And he had altered course. Just not enough. The bergs were unusually far south that year.
    He still knew there were bergs about and that they'd be difficult to spot but carried on anyway.
    Standard procedure. The berg that the Titanic struck was probably unusually dark (it may have turned over recently).

    If the ship had contacted the berg is just about any other way than she actually did, she may well have steamed into New York. Incredible bad luck. And a whole chain of bad luck.

    You can't blame one man for it. If blame lies anywhere it's with asshats in Parliament who thought they could devise a smarter safety formula than "lifeboats for all"...
    I certainly wouldn't blame one man for it - but by the same token, I wouldn't absolve the captain simply because others ran similar risks or because others were at fault for insufficient lifeboat capacity.

    You could argue that had the maths been done correctly, Andrews would have realised that she needed a bigger rudder.
    In accidents where people were not deliberately trying to cause harm, it is simply unhelpful to focus on blame, and particularly so if it leads you to stop the accident investigation at the human behaviour that was the proximate cause of the accident. A more pertinent question is always 'what aspects of the system set the person up to fail, rather than succeed.' Even if the 'human error' is down to poor decision-making of one individual, which it almost never is, you should ask what contributed to the poor decision-making.

    Focus on blame is a bad way to proceed - it will never achieve safety, just silence and cover up.

    In the case of the Titanic, you might as well blame those who labelled it unsinkable as the Captain.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Indigo said:

    More encouraging of les autres.

    'WARSAW (Reuters) - The EU must not let Britain profit from leaving the bloc as that could inspire other states to follow suit, European Council President Donald Tusk said, echoing other policymakers in signalling a tough stance in upcoming Brexit negotiations.'

    http://tinyurl.com/htpaze2

    It's probably a better strategy than announcing before the negotiation that they "couldn't conceive of the UK not getting a cushy deal" or that they wanted to "use the negotiations to dock the UK with EEA/EFTA", that has been tried recently with quite variable results ;)

    Or 'All EU citizens can stay in the UK as the EU screws over British residents...'
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    RodCrosby said:

    Oh dear... Sky News keeping saying Maria Eagle is challenging for the Labour Leadership

    When a major news network can't remember who Angela Eagle is then it is clear that she really hasn't made any impact....

    They were talking about Owen Jones joining the race this morning...

    You really wouldn't want to bet against Corbyn, would you?
    Reflects very badly on Sky, extremely unprofessional.
    But if either of the current challengers were in any way memorable, Sky reporters/presenters would know who they were and wouldn't make these mistakes,

    Corbyn is being challenged by lightweights.
    So Sky News only reports on well known individuals?
    You clearly love being obtuse.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''It really is a farce Scott. ''

    Mr Jobabob did that poll showing labour just one behind the tories and UKIP getting crushed cheer you up a bit?
  • If you are black, you can sign up to BAME Labour and get a vote right up to the 8th of August. Seems like they don't allow white members though.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Anyone know why Owen Smith is 2 on Betfair while Eagle is 15? Doesn't make sense to me.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,506

    If you are black, you can sign up to BAME Labour and get a vote right up to the 8th of August. Seems like they don't allow white members though.

    How do they check?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    ydoethur said:

    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    They might run out of cash. The elephant in the room is the major financial crisis within the party, which is another reason why they would struggle if May changes her mind on an election.

    They can't raise money until Corbyn goes, but they literally can't afford to take that route to get rid of him.
    Yes, there is that. I guess a backer needs to be found who will bankroll repeated challenges.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Pulpstar said:

    @DecrepitJohnL It's because no one else decent really wants the job, to be quite frank. The England job is a poisoned chalice. I still remember there were people who thought that this England team could do 'well' this year and even win the tournament....

    Almost any team can win the Euros now - we had quite enough talent to do so this year. Aside from Ronaldo and possibly Nani/Pepe you'd take the England players. Except Sterling. Definitely not Sterling.
    I don't think the squad was anywhere near as talented as many thought. Essentially the people who were expected to lead England to glory were a bunch of Spurs bottlers and players from an 8th place team (Liverpool). I think there are several differences between Portugal and England tbh. First, is that Portugal (especially after the group stages) played far more like a team than England did. They really ironed out much of the defensive weaknesses we saw during the Hungary game. While Portugal had their fair share of players who weren't particularly rated, Cristiano Ronaldo is obviously head and shoulders above anyone in an England shirt. As is Pepe, Nani, and Patricio after his performance in this tournament. Perhaps even Sanches.

    Looking at the kind of captain Ronaldo has been for Portugal all this tournament - especially when he turned manager in the final - who in the England squad as anywhere close to his mettle and bottle? No one. Certainly not Rooney, who I've never seen take control of games in an international tournament the way Ronaldo did versus Hungary.

    While Sterling was poor, they were many others who were also just as poor. Adam Lallana has been practically useless for England for two international tournaments in a row now. Wilshere should have never been picked, as the last time he played 90 minutes for Arsenal was back in 2014. Harry Kane is potentially in the discussion for one of the worst players of the tournament. Like with England U21s last year, he pretty much did nothing in this tournament. Dele Alli was underwhelming. Rooney is simply not effective in midfield, and is no longer good enough to be England's main striker. Arguably for the sake of everyone he should retire. Joe Hart is total joke and you can compare and contrast his performance in this tournament all day long with Rui Patricio. The only players who I think come out with any credit is Marcus Rashford who for the short spells we saw in the tournament was impressive, and Eric Dier.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    Is there any market on the official deputy?

    If Hammond is Chancellor, he will presumably be the de facto deputy, but I was wondering if Boris might be made FSoS and Leader of the House or Party Chairman as a sop to Leavers.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know why Owen Smith is 2 on Betfair while Eagle is 15? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Maybe a rumour Eagle is going to drop out ?

    Lay Smith and back Eagle perhaps.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    Pulpstar said:

    @bigjohnowls You should be able to work out quite quickly by elimination who voted which way in the NEC meetings on the various votes. Then the membership can act accordingly.

    There are a range of exciting options: death threats, bricks through windows, hate-filled emails, co-ordinated Twitter attacks, and so on.

  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    Do Labour MPs need to be reselected by their constituency parties *innocent face* ?

    The process for deselections is utterly tortuous. I wouldn't bank on there being many either.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,120
    edited July 2016
    May and Hammond - Duller and duller! :smiley:
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    If you are black, you can sign up to BAME Labour and get a vote right up to the 8th of August. Seems like they don't allow white members though.

    What's the definition of black? Just asking.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Cookie said:

    If you are black, you can sign up to BAME Labour and get a vote right up to the 8th of August. Seems like they don't allow white members though.

    How do they check?
    Perhaps there are some semi-retired experts from South Africa still available to help with that sort of thing?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited July 2016
    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know why Owen Smith is 2 on Betfair while Eagle is 15? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Fairly obviously, Eagle is totally hopeless. She's a stalking horse, she has no intention of winning and will stand down to make way for better candidates.

    All the bookies seem to agree:

    http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/labour-leadership-election
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,625
    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know why Owen Smith is 2 on Betfair while Eagle is 15? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Lab MPs say its 100% certain that there wii be only 1 challenger

    Guess people think Eagle has less support than Smith and will pull out
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    edited July 2016

    Pulpstar said:

    @bigjohnowls You should be able to work out quite quickly by elimination who voted which way in the NEC meetings on the various votes. Then the membership can act accordingly.

    There are a range of exciting options: death threats, bricks through windows, hate-filled emails, co-ordinated Twitter attacks, and so on.

    The CLP NEC woman on WatO was in tears throughout her interview.

    Some arse later said (ref Eagle) it was "only one brick", perhaps not understanding the relevance of the addition of "only one brick" to the way (Lab) politics is allowed to be conducted these days.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    Pulpstar said:

    @bigjohnowls You should be able to work out quite quickly by elimination who voted which way in the NEC meetings on the various votes. Then the membership can act accordingly.

    There are a range of exciting options: death threats, bricks through windows, hate-filled emails, co-ordinated Twitter attacks, and so on.

    One member of the NEC, think it was Johanna Baxter, was just being interviewed on Radio 4 and was literally in tears at the abuse she had received and Corbyn's blasé response to it.

    This is not the way a democratic party should behave.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,895
    taffys said:

    ''It really is a farce Scott. ''

    Mr Jobabob did that poll showing labour just one behind the tories and UKIP getting crushed cheer you up a bit?

    Hadn't noticed that. I guess you mean this one:

    Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 2h2 hours ago
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 36% (+1)
    LAB: 35% (+1)
    LDEM: 11% (+2)
    UKIP: 8% (-2)
    GRN: 4% (-)
    (via Ipsos Mori / 09 - 11 Jul)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169

    ITV’s Robert Peston thinks Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will be appointed chancellor by Theresa May.

    ITV News (@itvnews) July 13, 2016

    (update) Et al’ – any idea when the procession to No10 is likely to start ?

    Sky are suggesting that Cameron's appointment with HM is at 5pm, followed by May at 6pm, so could be a long night waiting for the phone to ring, for a number of ministers.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    TOPPING said:


    Some arse later said (ref Eagle) it was "only one brick", perhaps not understanding the relevance of the addition of "only one brick" to the way (Lab) politics is allowed to be conducted these days.

    Missed that bit. I'm not sure whether to be more worried that they thought it or that they clearly can't see what's wrong with it.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Angela Eagle ✔ @angelaeagle

    Today I'm pleased to sign the #KeepItComradely pledge. I hope all candidates and others will do so too.

    bless...!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    edited July 2016
    Sandpit said:

    ITV’s Robert Peston thinks Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will be appointed chancellor by Theresa May.

    ITV News (@itvnews) July 13, 2016

    (update) Et al’ – any idea when the procession to No10 is likely to start ?

    Sky are suggesting that Cameron's appointment with HM is at 5pm, followed by May at 6pm, so could be a long night waiting for the phone to ring, for a number of ministers.
    What's the vote this evening? Will we see Dave back for it? Could seriously interrupt the phone-watching.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2016
    Ed West:

    "So farewell, then, David Cameron. I suspect we’ll miss him when’s gone, but then he probably entered Downing Street 20 years too early, a product of a culture that fawns over youth and undervalues wisdom. At least Theresa May is a good decade older than him, although Kenneth Clarke, at 76, should have been considered for the role, entering as he is the prime of his political life."

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/07/conservative-party-remarkable-instinct-survival/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    Do Labour MPs need to be reselected by their constituency parties *innocent face* ?
    They definitely will if the boundary reforms and reduction in the number of MPs go through. ;)
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    As Peston's said Hammond will become foreign secretary, I'll assume that he won't.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sandpit said:

    ITV’s Robert Peston thinks Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will be appointed chancellor by Theresa May.

    ITV News (@itvnews) July 13, 2016

    (update) Et al’ – any idea when the procession to No10 is likely to start ?

    Sky are suggesting that Cameron's appointment with HM is at 5pm, followed by May at 6pm, so could be a long night waiting for the phone to ring, for a number of ministers.
    Hunt was all front centre on Sky - I suspect several big names already know their fate.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    ydoethur said:

    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    They might run out of cash. The elephant in the room is the major financial crisis within the party, which is another reason why they would struggle if May changes her mind on an election.

    They can't raise money until Corbyn goes, but they literally can't afford to take that route to get rid of him.
    I thought the challenge was tied to the Labour Conference, so can only be once a year?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    edited July 2016

    As Peston's said Hammond will become foreign secretary, I'll assume that he won't.

    Do you mean will become Chancellor, or Osborne will become FS? Hammond can't possibly become what he already is!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676

    Angela Eagle ✔ @angelaeagle

    Today I'm pleased to sign the #KeepItComradely pledge. I hope all candidates and others will do so too.

    bless...!

    As in Stalinist comradely? Maoist comradely?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,676
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:


    Some arse later said (ref Eagle) it was "only one brick", perhaps not understanding the relevance of the addition of "only one brick" to the way (Lab) politics is allowed to be conducted these days.

    Missed that bit. I'm not sure whether to be more worried that they thought it or that they clearly can't see what's wrong with it.
    There should be plenty of worry to go around, IMO
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Indigo said:

    More encouraging of les autres.

    'WARSAW (Reuters) - The EU must not let Britain profit from leaving the bloc as that could inspire other states to follow suit, European Council President Donald Tusk said, echoing other policymakers in signalling a tough stance in upcoming Brexit negotiations.'

    http://tinyurl.com/htpaze2

    It's probably a better strategy than announcing before the negotiation that they "couldn't conceive of the UK not getting a cushy deal" or that they wanted to "use the negotiations to dock the UK with EEA/EFTA", that has been tried recently with quite variable results ;)

    Or 'All EU citizens can stay in the UK as the EU screws over British residents...'
    How can he stop us profiting from Brexit? Does the world start and end with the EU? I think Poland has more to fear from Brexit than we do, and I don't think it has that much to fear other than a shortfall in funders. Get a life.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    As Peston's said Hammond will become foreign secretary, I'll assume that he won't.

    ??? Where have you heard this ?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    taffys said:

    ''It really is a farce Scott. ''

    Mr Jobabob did that poll showing labour just one behind the tories and UKIP getting crushed cheer you up a bit?

    No!

    :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028
    philiph said:

    ydoethur said:

    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    They might run out of cash. The elephant in the room is the major financial crisis within the party, which is another reason why they would struggle if May changes her mind on an election.

    They can't raise money until Corbyn goes, but they literally can't afford to take that route to get rid of him.
    I thought the challenge was tied to the Labour Conference, so can only be once a year?
    The NEC can call a special conference in the event of a vacancy. Not sure how it works for a challenge.

    It's more that they're already living beyond their income, and any additional burden might just cause a collapse.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    Do Labour MPs need to be reselected by their constituency parties *innocent face* ?
    They definitely will if the boundary reforms and reduction in the number of MPs go through. ;)
    :o A big, bold opportunity for the young Turks of Maomentum :)
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842

    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know why Owen Smith is 2 on Betfair while Eagle is 15? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Lab MPs say its 100% certain that there wii be only 1 challenger

    Guess people think Eagle has less support than Smith and will pull out
    I think it would be absolutely wrong for Eagle to pull out. She triggered the process and has a duty to see it through.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769


    I think it would be absolutely wrong for ...

    This is the Labour party though, remember.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    ydoethur said:

    As Peston's said Hammond will become foreign secretary, I'll assume that he won't.

    Do you mean will become Chancellor, or Osborne will become FS? Hammond can't possibly become what he already is!
    Pulpstar said:

    As Peston's said Hammond will become foreign secretary, I'll assume that he won't.

    ??? Where have you heard this ?
    Excuse me, my mind's gone a bit mad! I read that Peston tweet/post wrong. @ydoethur is right. Upon re-reading the tweet I meant to say 'As Peston's said Hammond will be Chancellor, I'll assume' he won't. @Pulpstar it was posted by SimonStClare (re Peston's thoughts on where Hammond would go).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Jobabob said:

    Just a thought. What is to stop PLP stalking horses repeatedly challenging Corbyn until he is eventually defeated?

    No block to that that I can see.

    Do Labour MPs need to be reselected by their constituency parties *innocent face* ?
    They definitely will if the boundary reforms and reduction in the number of MPs go through. ;)

    Yep, it will be the deselections that create the new party. I imagine many of those deselected will stand against the Momentum delegate in order to deprive him/her of victory.

  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @bigjohnowls You should be able to work out quite quickly by elimination who voted which way in the NEC meetings on the various votes. Then the membership can act accordingly.

    There are a range of exciting options: death threats, bricks through windows, hate-filled emails, co-ordinated Twitter attacks, and so on.

    One member of the NEC, think it was Johanna Baxter, was just being interviewed on Radio 4 and was literally in tears at the abuse she had received and Corbyn's blasé response to it.

    This is not the way a democratic party should behave.
    The bullying and violence is disgusting.

    I don't think I would go as far as Baxter did, however, in claiming that Corbyn 'endorsed bullying by voting against secret ballot'.

    Voting for the secret ballot would have been “an active thing he could have done to demonstrate his support to colleagues taking a very difficult decision yesterday, and he wouldn’t do it. It was was the most shameful thing I have ever seen,” she said.

    I thought the decision to have a secret ballot was gruesomely undemocratic. (I can understand why people would have wanted it for personal protection, but there were clearly other less wholesome reasons why people would have wanted it too.) I think it is pretty outrageous to claim that someone wanting votes to be made public was actively endorsing intimidation and violence - that's a nasty smear.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,895

    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know why Owen Smith is 2 on Betfair while Eagle is 15? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Lab MPs say its 100% certain that there wii be only 1 challenger

    Guess people think Eagle has less support than Smith and will pull out
    I think it would be absolutely wrong for Eagle to pull out. She triggered the process and has a duty to see it through.
    Bit like Boris, then.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,169
    PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    ITV’s Robert Peston thinks Philip Hammond, the foreign secretary, will be appointed chancellor by Theresa May.

    ITV News (@itvnews) July 13, 2016

    (update) Et al’ – any idea when the procession to No10 is likely to start ?

    Sky are suggesting that Cameron's appointment with HM is at 5pm, followed by May at 6pm, so could be a long night waiting for the phone to ring, for a number of ministers.
    Hunt was all front centre on Sky - I suspect several big names already know their fate.
    Yes, I imagine the half dozen or so key posts that need to be done ASAP have mostly been already tipped off. The rest will be sleeping next to their phones and staying out of the bars tonight!
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,561
    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    Why is Sarah Wollaston a Tory? What does she believe in apart from the NHS? What makes her a Conservative?

    You was chosen via an open primary as a way of getting rid of a stubborn incumbent LibDem.

    The plan worked. Albeit, she's half way between a Conservative and a LibDem.
    Wollaston? MP for Totnes, succeeding the Tory Anthony Steen, implicated in the expenses scandal if I remember right (prompting the open primary.) Looks like the Lib Dems have often come close, but never won there.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,679
    Why did Cameron outsource so many of the ministerial appointments to Osborne? Whether or not a PM should be trying to run the whole show, if he can't judge character and talent and know where to place people you have to wonder why he thought he'd be so good at the job.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456

    AndyJS said:

    Anyone know why Owen Smith is 2 on Betfair while Eagle is 15? Doesn't make sense to me.

    Lab MPs say its 100% certain that there wii be only 1 challenger

    Guess people think Eagle has less support than Smith and will pull out
    I think it would be absolutely wrong for Eagle to pull out. She triggered the process and has a duty to see it through.
    Bit like Boris, then.
    Boris never officially put his hat in the ring
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Pulpstar said:

    @DecrepitJohnL It's because no one else decent really wants the job, to be quite frank. The England job is a poisoned chalice. I still remember there were people who thought that this England team could do 'well' this year and even win the tournament....

    Almost any team can win the Euros now - we had quite enough talent to do so this year. Aside from Ronaldo and possibly Nani/Pepe you'd take the England players. Except Sterling. Definitely not Sterling.
    I don't think the squad was anywhere near as talented as many thought. Essentially the people who were expected to lead England to glory were a bunch of Spurs bottlers and players from an 8th place team (Liverpool). I think there are several differences between Portugal and England tbh. First, is that Portugal (especially after the group stages) played far more like a team than England did. They really ironed out much of the defensive weaknesses we saw during the Hungary game. While Portugal had their fair share of players who weren't particularly rated, Cristiano Ronaldo is obviously head and shoulders above anyone in an England shirt. As is Pepe, Nani, and Patricio after his performance in this tournament. Perhaps even Sanches.

    Looking at the kind of captain Ronaldo has been for Portugal all this tournament - especially when he turned manager in the final - who in the England squad as anywhere close to his mettle and bottle? No one. Certainly not Rooney, who I've never seen take control of games in an international tournament the way Ronaldo did versus Hungary.

    While Sterling was poor, they were many others who were also just as poor. Adam Lallana has been practically useless for England for two international tournaments in a row now. Wilshere should have never been picked, as the last time he played 90 minutes for Arsenal was back in 2014. Harry Kane is potentially in the discussion for one of the worst players of the tournament. Like with England U21s last year, he pretty much did nothing in this tournament. Dele Alli was underwhelming. Rooney is simply not effective in midfield, and is no longer good enough to be England's main striker. Arguably for the sake of everyone he should retire. Joe Hart is total joke and you can compare and contrast his performance in this tournament all day long with Rui Patricio. The only players who I think come out with any credit is Marcus Rashford who for the short spells we saw in the tournament was impressive, and Eric Dier.
    Rashford came on in 86th minute vs Iceland and 73rd minute vs Wales! Nuff said!
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    Why is Sarah Wollaston a Tory? What does she believe in apart from the NHS? What makes her a Conservative?

    You was chosen via an open primary as a way of getting rid of a stubborn incumbent LibDem.

    The plan worked. Albeit, she's half way between a Conservative and a LibDem.
    Wollaston? MP for Totnes, succeeding the Tory Anthony Steen, implicated in the expenses scandal if I remember right (prompting the open primary.) Looks like the Lib Dems have often come close, but never won there.
    Steen said his house looked like Balmoral...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2016
    Wikipedia is having a major malfunction, it seems to think Theresa May is already PM:

    https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=prime minister of the united kingdom
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Any shocks happened in the last hour or two?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,028

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @bigjohnowls You should be able to work out quite quickly by elimination who voted which way in the NEC meetings on the various votes. Then the membership can act accordingly.

    There are a range of exciting options: death threats, bricks through windows, hate-filled emails, co-ordinated Twitter attacks, and so on.

    One member of the NEC, think it was Johanna Baxter, was just being interviewed on Radio 4 and was literally in tears at the abuse she had received and Corbyn's blasé response to it.

    This is not the way a democratic party should behave.
    The bullying and violence is disgusting.

    I don't think I would go as far as Baxter did, however, in claiming that Corbyn 'endorsed bullying by voting against secret ballot'.

    Voting for the secret ballot would have been “an active thing he could have done to demonstrate his support to colleagues taking a very difficult decision yesterday, and he wouldn’t do it. It was was the most shameful thing I have ever seen,” she said.

    I thought the decision to have a secret ballot was gruesomely undemocratic. (I can understand why people would have wanted it for personal protection, but there were clearly other less wholesome reasons why people would have wanted it too.) I think it is pretty outrageous to claim that someone wanting votes to be made public was actively endorsing intimidation and violence - that's a nasty smear.
    I don't know. Gladstone brought in secret ballots in national elections precisely to make them less open to bribery and bullying. It's also why Thatcher brought in secret strike ballots. I would have said those moves made them more democratic as people would then vote without fear for their lives. I can't see, by contrast, why a ballot on labour membership rules needs to be public.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    AndyJS said:

    Wikipedia is having a major malfunction, it seems to think Theresa May is already PM:

    https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=prime minister of the united kingdom

    Looks like it is just Google.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Labour MPs today: yes clap, no rise.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    PlatoSaid said:

    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    Why is Sarah Wollaston a Tory? What does she believe in apart from the NHS? What makes her a Conservative?

    You was chosen via an open primary as a way of getting rid of a stubborn incumbent LibDem.

    The plan worked. Albeit, she's half way between a Conservative and a LibDem.
    Wollaston? MP for Totnes, succeeding the Tory Anthony Steen, implicated in the expenses scandal if I remember right (prompting the open primary.) Looks like the Lib Dems have often come close, but never won there.
    Steen said his house looked like Balmoral...
    It's a pretty unusual constituency. You have Totnes, and the Dart Valley leading up to Buckfastleigh, which as Marquee Mark puts it, is now twinned with Narnia. It's also the European centre of witchcraft.

    The South coast, leading from Dartmouth round to Thurlstone, has perhaps the most beautiful coastal scenery in England.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    edited July 2016
    tpfkar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    nunu said:

    Why is Sarah Wollaston a Tory? What does she believe in apart from the NHS? What makes her a Conservative?

    You was chosen via an open primary as a way of getting rid of a stubborn incumbent LibDem.

    The plan worked. Albeit, she's half way between a Conservative and a LibDem.
    Wollaston? MP for Totnes, succeeding the Tory Anthony Steen, implicated in the expenses scandal if I remember right (prompting the open primary.) Looks like the Lib Dems have often come close, but never won there.
    I think the goal for Totnes at the next GE must be to place a clear second.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @bigjohnowls You should be able to work out quite quickly by elimination who voted which way in the NEC meetings on the various votes. Then the membership can act accordingly.

    There are a range of exciting options: death threats, bricks through windows, hate-filled emails, co-ordinated Twitter attacks, and so on.

    One member of the NEC, think it was Johanna Baxter, was just being interviewed on Radio 4 and was literally in tears at the abuse she had received and Corbyn's blasé response to it.

    This is not the way a democratic party should behave.
    The bullying and violence is disgusting.

    I don't think I would go as far as Baxter did, however, in claiming that Corbyn 'endorsed bullying by voting against secret ballot'.

    Voting for the secret ballot would have been “an active thing he could have done to demonstrate his support to colleagues taking a very difficult decision yesterday, and he wouldn’t do it. It was was the most shameful thing I have ever seen,” she said.

    I thought the decision to have a secret ballot was gruesomely undemocratic. (I can understand why people would have wanted it for personal protection, but there were clearly other less wholesome reasons why people would have wanted it too.) I think it is pretty outrageous to claim that someone wanting votes to be made public was actively endorsing intimidation and violence - that's a nasty smear.
    What the hell is gruesomely undemocratic about a secret ballot? Your concept of democracy seems seriously flawed.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,856
    When Cameron resigns at 5 pm do all the cabinet lose their jobs with him or does Osborne, for instance, remain C of E until May appoints his replacement?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Any shocks happened in the last hour or two?

    Define ‘shocks’ – We’ve got to the point where Tom Watson thumping Len wouldn’t shock :lol:
This discussion has been closed.