@DPJHodges: If Sturgeon pushed for a second independence referendum, what would PM Boris say. "Sorry, you can't take back control. You have to remain"?
You could easily turn that on its head.
Sturgeon thinks British Independence is racist, wrong and economic madness but, by contrast, Scottish Independence is liberating, right and enriching.
Scotland can't be an independent country if it re-joins the EU.
Initially I felt sorry he was resigning. Then I remembered the way he pretended to be eurosceptic and wasn't, the way he handled the Remain campaign, and how he thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him is a 'little Englander'. And I thought... no, you brought this upon yourself.
In his resignation he said how much he loved this country. Well, newsflash sunshine, Leavers love this country too.
We're still in Europe. We still love our neighbours. We just don't think the EU is the best way forward.
I'd a speck of sympathy too - and SamCam looking all wobbly lipped.
Then I recalled all the lies, Obama's back-of-the-queue, Nancy's apprenticeship, Blackmail Budget et al.
He brought the temple down on himself. What an epic fail. If he was a sceptic - he'd never have attempted to ram through a crap deal in 3 months - nor loaded the dice so massively against his opponents.
I will never forgive him for watering down the Trades Union Bill in return for £1.5m of Remain campaigning. It's a squalid subversion of our democratic and parliamentary process = naked pork barrelling of the worst kind.
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Oh, now that you have edited it I see the bile and venom you are complaining about...
You have shown no grace at all in defeat, so I don't see why the rest of us should show any grace in victory.
I don't want you to show any grace quite frankly and I am not interested in your name calling. We are a bitterly divided nation and have taken a momentous decision that is going to profoundly affect different people in different ways. It's not the Oxford Union where we all shake hands afterwards and say well done old chap.
Leave have had it easy up to now and their problems are only just beginning IMO. You need to get in there and defend what you have landed us with and stop being so thin-skinned about it.
This is deadly serious, it's not a game. If you are throwing your toys out of the pram now I dread to think what you will doing when the heat is really on the Brexiters.
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Someone commented earlier it is unprecedented for their to be no effective PM and no effective LotO at the same time
Nicola and Sadiq have stepped into the breach
I have no strong opinions on Sadiq, he seems popular but I'm not close enough to it to have a proper view.
Nicola on the other hand, I think she is on cloud nine and will announce Indyref 2 on Monday. There's still time for another poll to come out tonight and there may be polls for Monday's papers out tomorrow.
65:35 is HUGE.
She's got to get her economic arguments right this time. No messing about like Salmond did...
She'll be a much easier "sell" than Alec though. None if his "baggage".
What a crazy time isn't it? Like the whole world is turning on its head!
Behind one is an oft repeated message that didn't resonate with the public and made those who trumpeted it look rather foolish, behind the other two are winning tactics that the wise knew would lead to success
I choose door one.
The host opens door three to reveal "It's the economy, stupid"
Initially I felt sorry he was resigning. Then I remembered the way he pretended to be eurosceptic and wasn't, the way he handled the Remain campaign, and how he thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him is a 'little Englander'. And I thought... no, you brought this upon yourself.
In his resignation he said how much he loved this country. Well, newsflash sunshine, Leavers love this country too.
We're still in Europe. We still love our neighbours. We just don't think the EU is the best way forward.
I'd a speck of sympathy too - and SamCam looking all wobbly lipped.
Then I recalled all the lies, Obama's back-of-the-queue, Nancy's apprenticeship, Blackmail Budget et al.
He brought the temple down on himself. What an epic fail. If he was a sceptic - he'd never have attempted to ram through a crap deal in 3 months - nor loaded the dice so massively against his opponents.
I will never forgive him for watering down the Trades Union Bill in return for £1.5m of Remain campaigning. It's a squalid subversion of our democratic and parliamentary process = naked pork barrelling of the worst kind.
If he had recommended LEAVE back in February, he would still be PM and a national hero!
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Excluding don't knows its 65%
A Union can only exist if all its constituent members are prepared to accept the outcome of losing a vote.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
They will and build a very prosperous Scotland that is part of the EU with Edinburgh becoming the most vibrant city in Europe.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
The Mail has a similar story
The comments are all "why didn't you tell us this before the vote?"
Comically tragic
The Mail on Sunday is pro remain - it's the Daily Mail who were all for leave
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Snap..
For me it's also revealed to my surprise that I cared more about Europe than I realised. The last 48 hours have been whether I'm so headbanging on the antisceptic side that I'd countenance the lib dems.. not I think but orange bookers would possibly be.
The developing war between the hannan/carswell vision and farage extremists is looking messy. An unholy team which now fights over the victory spoils..
I think the best option for us fiscally dry, socially liberal, not obsessed by the gays and Europe Tories is to stick to our principles from inside the party.
I mean if we can cope with the IDS years, we can cope with this.
To paraphrase Barbara Castle, my party will need me to save it.
The next pm and chancellor combo will determine things for me I think.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
Not really, no.
One only has to read Giles Coren, Alex Massie or Matthew Parris to realise there are some nasty bigots on either side.
There was a cringe-inducing piece on the BBC earlier "And now we go to Castle Point, an area with the highest % of white, English speaking voters in the UK - we're expecting a high Leave vote"
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
Oh it's undoubtedly true. One social media post I've seen 'I hope Europe PUNISHES us'. Ghastly. Unhealthy self-loathing younger generation.
Agreed, that's nauseating. On the other hand there are plenty
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
There a plenty of people who voted for Remain who are are simply very worried about the possible financial implications of Brexit. And quite a few repentant Leavers as well it appears. I doubt the Boris and Gove show will have calmed to many fears on Friday. Perhaps you should consider that rather than making snide comments about keyboard warriors.
Clicktivists need to be mocked. I wonder how many of those youngsters signing the petition for a second referendum failed to actually vote in the first?
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Scotland on Sunday is the Sunday imprint of the Scotsman.
If the Hootsman is backing Indy2, it's already over.
Davidson has been very, very quiet today. I don't think her party backs her "No Surrender" attitude. All the Union has left are the funny handshake crowd.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
Oh it's undoubtedly true. One social media post I've seen 'I hope Europe PUNISHES us'. Ghastly. Unhealthy self-loathing younger generation.
Agreed, that's nauseating. On the other hand there are plenty
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
There a plenty of people who voted for Remain who are are simply very worried about the possible financial implications of Brexit. And quite a few repentant Leavers as well it appears. I doubt the Boris and Gove show will have calmed to many fears on Friday. Perhaps you should consider that rather than making snide comments about keyboard warriors.
Clicktivists need to be mocked. I wonder how many of those youngsters signing the petition for a second referendum failed to actually vote in the first?
Bunnco I respect your knowledge. But were you at the party conference last year? Liz Truss really seemed to be struggling to make a speech about the environment, what really struck me was the awkward way she gave her speech. As if she didn't know much about the countryside and wildlife.
If your rival in love was boasting of having a 12" cock, would you think it was a good idea to tell everyone he was lying because it was only 7" on the soft?
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Excluding don't knows its 65%
A Union can only exist if all its constituent members are prepared to accept the outcome of losing a vote.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
They will and build a very prosperous Scotland that is part of the EU with Edinburgh becoming the most vibrant city in Europe.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
If Frankfurt are eagerly eyeing all the ex-London business going over there, why do you think they will be so keen to allow Edinburgh as an alternative?
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
There's a direct link between immaturity, not really being British and voting Remain.
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Scotland on Sunday is the Sunday imprint of the Scotsman.
If the Hootsman is backing Indy2, it's already over.
Quite right. They're not independent papers (organizationally). But there is no statement of that happening yet - though that front page is intriguing.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
Not really, no.
One only has to read Giles Coren, Alex Massie or Matthew Parris to realise there are some nasty bigots on either side.
There was a cringe-inducing piece on the BBC earlier "And now we go to Castle Point, an area with the highest % of white, English speaking voters in the UK - we're expecting a high Leave vote"
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
So what....because you've seen worse doesn't make it acceptable.
no, but it gives me a sense of perspective
why not get one yourself ?
Yeah sorry. I deserved that! Still think I'm right about the pensioners and immigration though!!
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Someone commented earlier it is unprecedented for their to be no effective PM and no effective LotO at the same time
Nicola and Sadiq have stepped into the breach
I have no strong opinions on Sadiq, he seems popular but I'm not close enough to it to have a proper view.
Nicola on the other hand, I think she is on cloud nine and will announce Indyref 2 on Monday. There's still time for another poll to come out tonight and there may be polls for Monday's papers out tomorrow.
65:35 is HUGE.
She's got to get her economic arguments right this time. No messing about like Salmond did...
She'll be a much easier "sell" than Alec though. None if his "baggage".
What a crazy time isn't it? Like the whole world is turning on its head!
I disagree.
Right here, right now, with today's politics, she doesn't need to offer anything economically. I think Scotland is viable and wealthy as an Independent state and that the deficit would be around £5bn on current spending levels.
Others may disagree.
But the truth is irrelevant right now. A referendum in September will see Yes romp home by 15pts at least.
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
The Mail has a similar story
The comments are all "why didn't you tell us this before the vote?"
Comically tragic
The Mail on Sunday is pro remain - it's the Daily Mail who were all for leave
Shush, dont tell them. Its all because of the brainwashing of the plebs by the murdoch press and the mail.
Mail on sunday had one of the most balanced editorials i've yet to read, laying out all the issues to people who only have a casual interest, weighing up the advantages and disadvantages, and ending with a remain recommendation.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
Davidson has been very, very quiet today. I don't think her party backs her "No Surrender" attitude. All the Union has left are the funny handshake crowd.
To be fair, everyone (other than Nicola) seems to be VERY quiet today so I wouldn't necessarily read too much in to this.
I think we'll know what everyone is doing on Monday,
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
Ahem!
Sunil Prasannan, BSc. (hons), ARCS, PhD, DIC*
(* that's Diploma of Imperial College, not Drunk In Charge!)
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
Nicola's a canny lass. She'll only go for it if she's 100% sure she'll win...
It seems pretty much nailed on already. Certainly a snap Referendum has to be close to 100%? Surely.
Cameron called a referendum as fast as possible and he lost. He believed those silly Ipsos Mori polls that showed Remain on 66% right after the election.
Facts can change and the biggest one that can assure a second SNP defeat will be the final Brexit deal, you don't know what the deal will be regarding scotland, the EU may betray the SNP in exchange for British concessions.
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
If you are white, aged over 65 and left school at 16- you would have almost certainly voted Brexit. Probably, the degree educated over 65's, a minority, are the ones who were overwhelmingly likely to back Remain.
I read a link earlier.. Churchill said spend 5 minutes talking to a constituent would put you off democracy. The role of politicians is to lead.
Brexit has stoked up the populist sentiment of ill educated and ignorant people. It is easy to do. The genie is out the bottle.
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Scotland on Sunday is the Sunday imprint of the Scotsman.
If the Hootsman is backing Indy2, it's already over.
Davidson has been very, very quiet today. I don't think her party backs her "No Surrender" attitude. All the Union has left are the funny handshake crowd.
Thanks. There was that odd leak just before Brexiref about her advocating a separation of the Scottish party from the rUK Tories to avoid contamination from Mr Johnson as PM in London. It got squelched very quickly but I was never very sure if it was a windup from one of her rivals or a genuine proposal.
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Someone commented earlier it is unprecedented for their to be no effective PM and no effective LotO at the same time
Nicola and Sadiq have stepped into the breach
I have no strong opinions on Sadiq, he seems popular but I'm not close enough to it to have a proper view.
Nicola on the other hand, I think she is on cloud nine and will announce Indyref 2 on Monday. There's still time for another poll to come out tonight and there may be polls for Monday's papers out tomorrow.
65:35 is HUGE.
She's got to get her economic arguments right this time. No messing about like Salmond did...
She'll be a much easier "sell" than Alec though. None if his "baggage".
What a crazy time isn't it? Like the whole world is turning on its head!
I disagree.
Right here, right now, with today's politics, she doesn't need to offer anything economically. I think Scotland is viable and wealthy as an Independent state and that the deficit would be around £5bn on current spending levels.
Others may disagree.
But the truth is irrelevant right now. A referendum in September will see Yes romp home by 15pts at least.
Made easier by a lame duck PM.
I wonder if any of the dinner guests of HM gave as one of 3 reasons to vote Remain that it would keep Scotland in the UK.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Scotland on Sunday is the Sunday imprint of the Scotsman.
If the Hootsman is backing Indy2, it's already over.
Quite right. They're not independent papers (organizationally). But there is no statement of that happening yet - though that front page is intriguing.
I'll rephrase. If the Hootsman is not actively and urgently trying to repel Scottish Independence then it is already over.
On this topic... I don't give a stuff where someone's from either.
But I always found it curious that so many prominent Remainers were so fond of having "no upper limit" on migration from Europe, but not from the rest of the world.
If I were trolling I'd mention something about said European immigrants being predominantly white/predominantly religiously or culturally Christian, and what is wrong with all those brown and black people elsewhere in the world? Shouldn't they have the automatic right to come here with "no upper limit" too?
I understand that this is reciprocal for Brits having the right to live and work in Europe. But if said reciprocal rights, without upper limit, are such a fantastic thing, why have we not gone around negotiating more "reciprocal unlimited migration rights" deals with other countries, in the same manner we have with the EU? Lots of Brits move to live/work in the US, Australia, NZ, Canada, South Africa, Thailand and so on.
Why is it so great and important that millions (literally) of Europeans can come and live here, but we don't extend the same rights to Thais or Filipinos or Saffers or Aussies or Brazilians? Since migration and diversity is such a fantastic thing, as we are consistently told, even of low-skilled non-English speakers, aren't we missing out on lots of those benefits by forcing migrants from other countries to jump through such appalling hoops? Why isn't everybody better off by declaring that the right to live, work and receive benefits in the UK is a basic human right that should be open to everyone on the planet, regardless of whether they hold an EU passport?
I'm asking this as a serious question despite my tone. I'm aware that there is a serious political movement for "No Borders" that believes migration is a basic human right, and that it has proponents among Greens, Labour and Lib Dems, but its influence - at least outside the Greens - is minuscule. Yet look at the pronouncements of SNP and Labour progressives post-Brexit and they have consistently emphasised "London/Scotland is open and diverse", "all European migrants are still welcome here" ... so somehow unlimited migration of EU passport holders has become an article of faith amongst a section of the political elite.Yet unlimited migration without discrimination on grounds of nationality has essentially zero senior political support. What's up with that?
I was brought up mostly by my Aunty Dorothy and Uncle Bart - Bart came from Sierra Leone and had the most marvellous gold capped teeth, like a pirate.
Why should they be discriminated against because of where they're born? I love India and would happily emigrate there. Why are they less worthy than someone from Italy?
I find it incomprehensible. Waycist is just such a losers' argument
I'll be interested to see Peter Hitchens's take on this tomorrow. Surely he won't be happy about it - that's not really his style. I'll bet his line will be: 'If you think this sham referendum result will change a God damn thing then you're in cloud-cuckoo land.'
Right here, right now, with today's politics, she doesn't need to offer anything economically. I think Scotland is viable and wealthy as an Independent state and that the deficit would be around £5bn on current spending levels.
Others may disagree.
But the truth is irrelevant right now. A referendum in September will see Yes romp home by 15pts at least.
Indeed
If Brexit has shown anything, it is that raw politics (immigration, sovereignty, cheap slogans) can trump (sic) economics
And if England has just voted to make the UK poorer in the long run, the risks to Scotland of separation are that much less
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Excluding don't knows its 65%
A Union can only exist if all its constituent members are prepared to accept the outcome of losing a vote.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
They will and build a very prosperous Scotland that is part of the EU with Edinburgh becoming the most vibrant city in Europe.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
If Frankfurt are eagerly eyeing all the ex-London business going over there, why do you think they will be so keen to allow Edinburgh as an alternative?
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
Amazed you have such knowledge of what remainers are thinking, do you do Tarot cards as well? . Don't suppose it has occurred to you that we believe the economic experts are more likely to be accurate in their predictions that Boris & Nige. Most of us will take no pleasure in that but are certainly going to say "I told you so"
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Excluding don't knows its 65%
A Union can only exist if all its constituent members are prepared to accept the outcome of losing a vote.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
They will and build a very prosperous Scotland that is part of the EU with Edinburgh becoming the most vibrant city in Europe.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
The Indian businessman needs to talk to a few voters.
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
Boston - 76% leave South Holland -74% Castle Point - 73% Thurrock - 72% Great Yarmouth - 72% Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71% NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70% Havering (Hornchurch) - 70% Cannock - 69% Basildon - 69% Harlow - 68% Tamworth - 68% Blackpool - 68% N Warwickshire - 67% Rochford - 67% Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66% Broxbourne - 66% Nuneaton - 66% Gravesham - 65% Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
I'll be interested to see Peter Hitchens's take on this tomorrow. Surely he won't be happy about it - that's not really his style. I'll bet his line will be: 'If you think this sham referendum result will change a God damn thing then you're in cloud-cuckoo land.'
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Scotland on Sunday is the Sunday imprint of the Scotsman.
If the Hootsman is backing Indy2, it's already over.
Quite right. They're not independent papers (organizationally). But there is no statement of that happening yet - though that front page is intriguing.
I'll rephrase. If the Hootsman is not actively and urgently trying to repel Scottish Independence then it is already over.
Yes, of course, thanks - silly me (a bit too much South Australian red for dinner). You're absolutely right.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
Ahem!
Sunil Prasannan, BSc. (hons), ARCS, PhD, DIC*
(* that's Diploma of Imperial College, not Drunk In Charge!)
What good did it do you ? Train-spotters just need to be high !
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Nicola really has to call a snap referendum. Delay would be the worst course of action, she's had two days of playing caution, its time to move.
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
No doubt about it if Sturgeon lost a 2nd Indy Ref they she will be a gonner. They have to be sure about this before going for it and at the moment there is a lot of uncertainty about what the relationship will be between the EU and the UK and therefore between Scotland and rUK if we vote for independence. Also the currency debacle from last time has still to be decided on with neither the £ or the Euro without problems. If nothing else the lack of the plan from the Leave campaign will make people possibly more wary about voting for something without a clear outline of what would happen if the 2nd vote results in Yes winning. Hard to see a referendum being called for before next September but at the moment the chances are that number of No voters who have changed their minds is far more than the number of Yes voters who would not back Indy if it means still being part of the EU (about 1/3 of SNP voters voted leave on Thursday, a few tactically no doubt but many on the more pure independence way of thinking)
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Excluding don't knows its 65%
A Union can only exist if all its constituent members are prepared to accept the outcome of losing a vote.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
They will and build a very prosperous Scotland that is part of the EU with Edinburgh becoming the most vibrant city in Europe.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
If Frankfurt are eagerly eyeing all the ex-London business going over there, why do you think they will be so keen to allow Edinburgh as an alternative?
They wont. In fact one of the reasons why London will still do ok will be that all the other EU countries will be busy fighting each other over whose capital will be the financial one.
Davidson has been very, very quiet today. I don't think her party backs her "No Surrender" attitude. All the Union has left are the funny handshake crowd.
To be fair, everyone (other than Nicola) seems to be VERY quiet today so I wouldn't necessarily read too much in to this.
I think we'll know what everyone is doing on Monday,
There have been a lot of politicians very active today, on the news and on specials. Even Cameron has been active today.
Osborne is AWOL. Davidson went into hiding at mid-day Friday. The pro-Union voice in Scotland since mid-day Friday is Kezia Dugdale and Menzies Campbell. That they have had to resort to wheeling out Ming Campbell kind of says it all.
I've been trying to cover social media, media, TV news and a couple of message boards. The voices for the Union are Kezia, Ming, DavidL, Speedy and a guy on Reddit.
@DPJHodges: If Sturgeon pushed for a second independence referendum, what would PM Boris say. "Sorry, you can't take back control. You have to remain"?
You could easily turn that on its head.
Sturgeon thinks British Independence is racist, wrong and economic madness but, by contrast, Scottish Independence is liberating, right and enriching.
Scotland can't be an independent country if it re-joins the EU.
Independence OUTSIDE the EU makes sense.
Scotland's largest current trading partner by far is the rest of the UK, with accounts for roughly 65% of its current external trading. The EU accounts for about 20%.
So: (1) No unfettered UK access to the single market: At a second referendum, Scotland will have to choose whether to keep seamless external trade with the 65% or the 20%. Best to stick with the 65%.
(2) Full UK access to the single market: No real case then for a second referendum, just a pretext for one.
I've been trying to cover social media, media, TV news and a couple of message boards. The voices for the Union are Kezia, Ming, DavidL, Speedy and a guy on Reddit.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
I am looking to buy a flat in the Smoke in a few years for retirement, and fox jr to live in in the meantime. I am looking forward to a lot of those properties under construction flooding the collapsing market. There will be some bargains shortly.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
Loser.
Yes, they lost my money.
We have also all lost the UK.
Your win is falling apart. Suck it up.
Perfectly happy with my win. And even happier listening to the bitching and moaning from your type.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
I am looking to buy a flat in the Smoke in a few years for retirement, and fox jr to live in in the meantime. I am looking forward to a lot of those properties under construction flooding the collapsing market. There will be some bargains shortly.
Davidson has been very, very quiet today. I don't think her party backs her "No Surrender" attitude. All the Union has left are the funny handshake crowd.
To be fair, everyone (other than Nicola) seems to be VERY quiet today so I wouldn't necessarily read too much in to this.
I think we'll know what everyone is doing on Monday,
There have been a lot of politicians very active today, on the news and on specials. Even Cameron has been active today.
Osborne is AWOL. Davidson went into hiding at mid-day Friday. The pro-Union voice in Scotland since mid-day Friday is Kezia Dugdale and Menzies Campbell. That they have had to resort to wheeling out Ming Campbell kind of says it all.
I've been trying to cover social media, media, TV news and a couple of message boards. The voices for the Union are Kezia, Ming, DavidL, Speedy and a guy on Reddit.
Mr Rennie can be added to the list -coming out in support of the SNP (which I never thought I would hear, apart from obvious things like liberal social policies), at least for EU membership retention (but not, at least yet, indyref).
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
Loser.
Yes, they lost my money.
We have also all lost the UK.
Your win is falling apart. Suck it up.
Perfectly happy with my win. And even happier listening to the bitching and moaning from your type.
Suck it up, bitches is not the usual language of a person happy and at one with the world.
Interesting point raised by Surbiton here. Is there also a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and wwc votes for Labour in the north, midlands and south wales?
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
I've been trying to cover social media, media, TV news and a couple of message boards. The voices for the Union are Kezia, Ming, DavidL, Speedy and a guy on Reddit.
Kezia has hinted that Labour are up for IndyRef2
She seems to have retracted again now, showing the deft political touch that Scottish Labour are renowned for.
So: (1) No unfettered UK access to the single market: At a second referendum, Scotland will have to choose whether to keep seamless external trade with the 65% or the 20%. Best to stick with the 65%.
(2) Full UK access to the single market: No real case then for a second referendum, just a pretext for one.
Are you really trying to run the Brexit remain argument in the hope that "it would win in Scotland" now?
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
I am looking to buy a flat in the Smoke in a few years for retirement, and fox jr to live in in the meantime. I am looking forward to a lot of those properties under construction flooding the collapsing market. There will be some bargains shortly.
I reckon 10% fall in one year ! London more so.
I think better than that. I would like to see a 50% drop.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
Loser.
I guess so: she won't be getting any commission.
I wonder whether it was a nice property though?
Good location, decent space, fair orice, would have been on my shortlist of a handful, not my top choice but I change that day to day at the moment!
Right here, right now, with today's politics, she doesn't need to offer anything economically. I think Scotland is viable and wealthy as an Independent state and that the deficit would be around £5bn on current spending levels.
Others may disagree.
But the truth is irrelevant right now. A referendum in September will see Yes romp home by 15pts at least.
Indeed
If Brexit has shown anything, it is that raw politics (immigration, sovereignty, cheap slogans) can trump (sic) economics
And if England has just voted to make the UK poorer in the long run, the risks to Scotland of separation are that much less
If she does it right she can win, and win big
if England has just voted to make the UK poorer in the long run
Big IF. We could well be much better in the long run.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
Loser.
I guess so: she won't be getting any commission.
I wonder whether it was a nice property though?
Good location, decent space, fair orice, would have been on my shortlist of a handful, not my top choice but I change that day to day at the moment!
It will be cheaper next year. I wouldn'touch buying a property for a bit yet.
If I were trolling I'd mention something about said European immigrants being predominantly white/predominantly religiously or culturally Christian, and what is wrong with all those brown and black people elsewhere in the world? Shouldn't they have the automatic right to come here with "no upper limit" too?
I understand that this is reciprocal for Brits having the right to live and work in Europe. But if said reciprocal rights, without upper limit, are such a fantastic thing, why have we not gone around negotiating more "reciprocal unlimited migration rights" deals with other countries, in the same manner we have with the EU? Lots of Brits move to live/work in the US, Australia, NZ, Canada, South Africa, Thailand and so on.
Why is it so great and important that millions (literally) of Europeans can come and live here, but we don't extend the same rights to Thais or Filipinos or Saffers or Aussies or Brazilians? Since migration and diversity is such a fantastic thing, as we are consistently told, even of low-skilled non-English speakers, aren't we missing out on lots of those benefits by forcing migrants from other countries to jump through such appalling hoops? Why isn't everybody better off by declaring that the right to live, work and receive benefits in the UK is a basic human right that should be open to everyone on the planet, regardless of whether they hold an EU passport?
I'm asking this as a serious question despite my tone. I'm aware that there is a serious political movement for "No Borders" that believes migration is a basic human right, and that it has proponents among Greens, Labour and Lib Dems, but its influence - at least outside the Greens - is minuscule. Yet look at the pronouncements of SNP and Labour progressives post-Brexit and they have consistently emphasised "London/Scotland is open and diverse", "all European migrants are still welcome here" ... so somehow unlimited migration of EU passport holders has become an article of faith amongst a section of the political elite.Yet unlimited migration without discrimination on grounds of nationality has essentially zero senior political support. What's up with that?
I was brought up mostly by my Aunty Dorothy and Uncle Bart - Bart came from Sierra Leone and had the most marvellous gold capped teeth, like a pirate.
Why should they be discriminated against because of where they're born? I love India and would happily emigrate there. Why are they less worthy than someone from Italy?
I find it incomprehensible. Waycist is just such a losers' argument
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Nicola really has to call a snap referendum. Delay would be the worst course of action, she's had two days of playing caution, its time to move.
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
No doubt about it if Sturgeon lost a 2nd Indy Ref they she will be a gonner. They have to be sure about this before going for it and at the moment there is a lot of uncertainty about what the relationship will be between the EU and the UK and therefore between Scotland and rUK if we vote for independence. Also the currency debacle from last time has still to be decided on with neither the £ or the Euro without problems. If nothing else the lack of the plan from the Leave campaign will make people possibly more wary about voting for something without a clear outline of what would happen if the 2nd vote results in Yes winning. Hard to see a referendum being called for before next September but at the moment the chances are that number of No voters who have changed their minds is far more than the number of Yes voters who would not back Indy if it means still being part of the EU (about 1/3 of SNP voters voted leave on Thursday, a few tactically no doubt but many on the more pure independence way of thinking)
The SNP do not need that.
They need a number of credible EU voices saying that Scotland will be fast-tracked to inherit the UK membership with UK opt outs and call a snap Referendum this September. It will be overwhelmingly yes.
They can go with "Sterling to start then decide" on currency and it will be perfectly acceptable. The momentum needs to be used not delayed. The only way to stop Scottish Independence is to delay the vote.
@DPJHodges: If Sturgeon pushed for a second independence referendum, what would PM Boris say. "Sorry, you can't take back control. You have to remain"?
You could easily turn that on its head.
Sturgeon thinks British Independence is racist, wrong and economic madness but, by contrast, Scottish Independence is liberating, right and enriching.
I've been trying to cover social media, media, TV news and a couple of message boards. The voices for the Union are Kezia, Ming, DavidL, Speedy and a guy on Reddit.
Kezia has hinted that Labour are up for IndyRef2
When did that happen? With or without a mandate for one side?
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
Only because there is a direct correlation between age and the availability of higher education when the person turned 18. Anyone of my age or a little younger who went to university did so when less than 5% of school leavers did so. They went into apprenticeships or work Currently 50% of school levers go to university and I doubt that when they come out they are any more intelligent or sensible than 50% of the population were 30 years ago.
Interesting point raised by Surbiton here. Is there also a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and wwc votes for Labour in the north, midlands and south wales?
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
You are correct. There is a direct correlation between lack or little formal education and voting Leave.
If not prev mentioned a big Huzzah for the England U20 Rugby team, World champions. beating Ireland in the final. A really good team and it augurs well for the future..
I hope every sensible poster on here is signing the EU petition for a second referendum vote... there is a precedent.. Ireland kept on voting till they got the right decision
Comments
Independence OUTSIDE the EU makes sense.
Then I recalled all the lies, Obama's back-of-the-queue, Nancy's apprenticeship, Blackmail Budget et al.
He brought the temple down on himself. What an epic fail. If he was a sceptic - he'd never have attempted to ram through a crap deal in 3 months - nor loaded the dice so massively against his opponents.
I will never forgive him for watering down the Trades Union Bill in return for £1.5m of Remain campaigning. It's a squalid subversion of our democratic and parliamentary process = naked pork barrelling of the worst kind.
https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond/status/746718871806173184
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Leave have had it easy up to now and their problems are only just beginning IMO. You need to get in there and defend what you have landed us with and stop being so thin-skinned about it.
This is deadly serious, it's not a game. If you are throwing your toys out of the pram now I dread to think what you will doing when the heat is really on the Brexiters.
She'll be a much easier "sell" than Alec though. None if his "baggage".
What a crazy time isn't it? Like the whole world is turning on its head!
Behind one is an oft repeated message that didn't resonate with the public and made those who trumpeted it look rather foolish, behind the other two are winning tactics that the wise knew would lead to success
I choose door one.
The host opens door three to reveal "It's the economy, stupid"
Do I switch?
But there goes all the moaning about an instant rerun.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
Utter scorn is too good for them.
If the Hootsman is backing Indy2, it's already over.
Davidson has been very, very quiet today. I don't think her party backs her "No Surrender" attitude. All the Union has left are the funny handshake crowd.
I respect your knowledge. But were you at the party conference last year? Liz Truss really seemed to be struggling to make a speech about the environment, what really struck me was the awkward way she gave her speech. As if she didn't know much about the countryside and wildlife.
If your rival in love was boasting of having a 12" cock, would you think it was a good idea to tell everyone he was lying because it was only 7" on the soft?
Right here, right now, with today's politics, she doesn't need to offer anything economically. I think Scotland is viable and wealthy as an Independent state and that the deficit would be around £5bn on current spending levels.
Others may disagree.
But the truth is irrelevant right now. A referendum in September will see Yes romp home by 15pts at least.
Mail on sunday had one of the most balanced editorials i've yet to read, laying out all the issues to people who only have a casual interest, weighing up the advantages and disadvantages, and ending with a remain recommendation.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
I think we'll know what everyone is doing on Monday,
There are a lot of Remain voters in Scotland who are VERY happy with the result right now.
Sunil Prasannan, BSc. (hons), ARCS, PhD, DIC*
(* that's Diploma of Imperial College, not Drunk In Charge!)
The BBC are sneering at both of them, and also at the petition for a second referendum, which has now gained nearly 2.5 million signatures.
He believed those silly Ipsos Mori polls that showed Remain on 66% right after the election.
Facts can change and the biggest one that can assure a second SNP defeat will be the final Brexit deal, you don't know what the deal will be regarding scotland, the EU may betray the SNP in exchange for British concessions.
I read a link earlier.. Churchill said spend 5 minutes talking to a constituent would put you off democracy. The role of politicians is to lead.
Brexit has stoked up the populist sentiment of ill educated and ignorant people. It is easy to do. The genie is out the bottle.
The total signing the petition at this moment is 2.47 million.
I wonder if any of the dinner guests of HM gave as one of 3 reasons to vote Remain that it would keep Scotland in the UK.
The 60 odd million people of England and Wales should not be trapped in the EU because of 5 million Scots. The tail should not wag the dog.
Why should they be discriminated against because of where they're born? I love India and would happily emigrate there. Why are they less worthy than someone from Italy?
I find it incomprehensible. Waycist is just such a losers' argument
If Brexit has shown anything, it is that raw politics (immigration, sovereignty, cheap slogans) can trump (sic) economics
And if England has just voted to make the UK poorer in the long run, the risks to Scotland of separation are that much less
If she does it right she can win, and win big
Boston - 76% leave
South Holland -74%
Castle Point - 73%
Thurrock - 72%
Great Yarmouth - 72%
Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71%
NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70%
Havering (Hornchurch) - 70%
Cannock - 69%
Basildon - 69%
Harlow - 68%
Tamworth - 68%
Blackpool - 68%
N Warwickshire - 67%
Rochford - 67%
Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66%
Broxbourne - 66%
Nuneaton - 66%
Gravesham - 65%
Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
Monday will be very interesting .
We have also all lost the UK.
Your win is falling apart. Suck it up.
Hard to see a referendum being called for before next September but at the moment the chances are that number of No voters who have changed their minds is far more than the number of Yes voters who would not back Indy if it means still being part of the EU (about 1/3 of SNP voters voted leave on Thursday, a few tactically no doubt but many on the more pure independence way of thinking)
In fact one of the reasons why London will still do ok will be that all the other EU countries will be busy fighting each other over whose capital will be the financial one.
Osborne is AWOL. Davidson went into hiding at mid-day Friday. The pro-Union voice in Scotland since mid-day Friday is Kezia Dugdale and Menzies Campbell. That they have had to resort to wheeling out Ming Campbell kind of says it all.
I've been trying to cover social media, media, TV news and a couple of message boards. The voices for the Union are Kezia, Ming, DavidL, Speedy and a guy on Reddit.
" It's only fair, we had them last time. "
So:
(1) No unfettered UK access to the single market: At a second referendum, Scotland will have to choose whether to keep seamless external trade with the 65% or the 20%. Best to stick with the 65%.
(2) Full UK access to the single market: No real case then for a second referendum, just a pretext for one.
"Should Scots cease to live in an independent country?"
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-25/scottish-lib-dems-back-sturgeon-in-eu-negotiations/
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/746812029785243648
Really?
if England has just voted to make the UK poorer in the long run
Big IF. We could well be much better in the long run.
@GdnPolitics: London’s standing in global finance at risk as City faces loss of ‘EU passport’ https://t.co/zm0Guhk2b6
Now, if Edinburgh had one...
Nicola!
They need a number of credible EU voices saying that Scotland will be fast-tracked to inherit the UK membership with UK opt outs and call a snap Referendum this September. It will be overwhelmingly yes.
They can go with "Sterling to start then decide" on currency and it will be perfectly acceptable. The momentum needs to be used not delayed. The only way to stop Scottish Independence is to delay the vote.
Edit - Christ you're right.
https://twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/746717679592038401
I hope every sensible poster on here is signing the EU petition for a second referendum vote... there is a precedent.. Ireland kept on voting till they got the right decision