In what way do immigration rules favour EU migrants ahead of non-EU migrants? That is bullshit. I've hired 5 non-EU migrants over the last 2 years (and 0 EU migrants by the way). The hiring of non-EU migrants is done in consonance with UK Government rules.
Well, since it is so straightforward to follow the procedures for hiring non-EU migrants, why do we not simply impose the same rules on hiring EU migrants too? ;-)
Not sure if you were being serious or not, but Sunil clearly has a valid point. Any EU citizen has the right to simply come to the UK, and live and work here. An Indian or Thai or Filipino who touches down here, can't just rent a house and start looking for a job in the same way. Far more hoops to jump through.
If we had a system that didn't discriminate based on nationality, then we either give freedom of movement - the right to come to Britain, stay and work here - to every person on the planet (and there are very well-intentioned folk who argue for just that) or we apply a system of rules that applies to everybody, EU or non-EU.
Now there may be benefits to a system that discriminates based on nationality. But it would be silly to argue that the current system doesn't discriminate. Personally I'm uneasy with that, in a vein similar to my distaste for the old American system of immigration quotas by country
I don't think that Scotland will get the opt outs that the UK has. Slightly different for a country of 5 million and a small part to play in the European economy compared to the UK's influence. If Scotland is to join the EU is means the full package which is what might make some SNP supporters have 2nd thoughts. However I agree that if there was a vote held quickly (and I don't think that it could happen before mid October at the very earliest) then YES would win but it would be without a clear plan of exactly what would would happen next, a bit like the leave result.
You're misreading what I said. It doesnt matter if Scotland gets it or not. They just need enough EU high heid yins saying they will.
For the SNP, winning is all that matters. Same for me and a lot of others. Get the vote, get the win, it's doable after that.
But I don't think that anybody is going to offer Scotland those opt-outs. Otherwise other countries will be clamoring to get them as well. So what you are saying is basically do anything it takes to get a YES vote, the consequences thereof and the lies that might need to be told do not matter?
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Davidson has taken the only move available to her and said she is completely opposed to indyref2 as laid out in her manifesto.
I've heard conflicting reports on Dugdale.
Dugdale is switching sides despite her comments on Indyref 2 until now.
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
No doubt about it if Sturgeon lost a 2nd Indy Ref they she will be a gonner. They have to be sure about this before going for it and at the moment there is a lot of uncertainty about what the relationship will be between the EU and the UK and therefore between Scotland and rUK if we vote for independence. Also the currency debacle from last time has still to be decided on with neither the £ or the Euro without problems. If nothing else the lack of the plan from the Leave campaign will make people possibly more wary about voting for something without a clear outline of what would happen if the 2nd vote results in Yes winning. Hard to see a referendum being called for before next September but at the moment the chances are that number of No voters who have changed their minds is far more than the number of Yes voters who would not back Indy if it means still being part of the EU (about 1/3 of SNP voters voted leave on Thursday, a few tactically no doubt but many on the more pure independence way of thinking)
The SNP do not need that.
They need a number of credible EU voices saying that Scotland will be fast-tracked to inherit the UK membership with UK opt outs and call a snap Referendum this September. It will be overwhelmingly yes.
They can go with "Sterling to start then decide" on currency and it will be perfectly acceptable. The momentum needs to be used not delayed. The only way to stop Scottish Independence is to delay the vote.
I don't think that Scotland will get the opt outs that the UK has. Slightly different for a country of 5 million and a small part to play in the European economy compared to the UK's influence. If Scotland is to join the EU is means the full package which is what might make some SNP supporters have 2nd thoughts. However I agree that if there was a vote held quickly (and I don't think that it could happen before mid October at the very earliest) then YES would win but it would be without a clear plan of exactly what would would happen next, a bit like the leave result.
What have EU got to gain by allowing Scotland in with opt-outs? Don't you think some of the other recent applicants who would love some of the opt-outs might object?
I don't think that Scotland will get those opt-outs for the reason that you give
It will be very interesting to see if the SoS and Scotsman follow the Record and Herald in seemingly espousing indyref 2. I don't believe it, not for a moment, but if they do, it will be more than significant.
Too early to say without reading, but that's quite a positive or at least neutral front page.
And I'm not sure what Ms Davidson and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (aka the Ruth D Party) is doing, and Labour in Scotland seem to change their minds daily.
Davidson has taken the only move available to her and said she is completely opposed to indyref2 as laid out in her manifesto.
I've heard conflicting reports on Dugdale.
Dugdale is switching sides despite her comments on Indyref 2 until now.
Unbelievable to see posters like Barnesian saying sod the will of the public, as I don't agree with the result of the referendum Parliament should ignore it. The arrogance is breathtaking.
Parliament should act in the interests of the public. The public believe that Brexit will lead to scads of money and less immigration. Personally, I believe Article 50 should have been invoked if the referendum were indeed the democratic say of the people, but given LEAVE's unwillingness to actually begin to leave the EU, the mandate of the referendum becomes one of spirit and may be superceded by changes in public opinion, events or an election which returns a parliament not minded to enforce an advisory plebiscite, probably due to one of the first two reasons.
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Excluding don't knows its 65%
A Union can only exist if all its constituent members are prepared to accept the outcome of losing a vote.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
They will and build a very prosperous Scotland that is part of the EU with Edinburgh becoming the most vibrant city in Europe.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
The Indian businessman needs to talk to a few voters.
It is very strange to watch the names of REMAINers be touted around as if they had a hope. Is it really going to come from someone else than these? Boris Johnson, Andrea Leadsom, Liam Fox, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab Michael Gove, David Davis,
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
)
.
.
What have EU got to gain by allowing Scotland in with opt-outs? Don't you think some of the other recent applicants who would love some of the opt-outs might object?
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
The SNP do not need that.
They need a number of credible EU voices saying that Scotland will be fast-tracked to inherit the UK membership with UK opt outs and call a snap Referendum this September. It will be overwhelmingly yes.
They can go with "Sterling to start then decide" on currency and it will be perfectly acceptable. The momentum needs to be used not delayed. The only way to stop Scottish Independence is to delay the vote.
I don't think that Scotland will get the opt outs that the UK has. Slightly different for a country of 5 million and a small part to play in the European economy compared to the UK's influence. If Scotland is to join the EU is means the full package which is what might make some SNP supporters have 2nd thoughts. However I agree that if there was a vote held quickly (and I don't think that it could happen before mid October at the very earliest) then YES would win but it would be without a clear plan of exactly what would would happen next, a bit like the leave result.
What have EU got to gain by allowing Scotland in with opt-outs? Don't you think some of the other recent applicants who would love some of the opt-outs might object?
Why would Scotland need the opt-outs ? Those were negotiated to keep the Tory loonies happy !
@SkyNews: Regions being supported by EU funding seek guarantees that government will cover grants they will now not receive https://t.co/Txlcn2tzup
That would be the Cornwall and South Yorkshire that voted to Leave the EU?
Don't they know that money is going to the NHS once we leave.
So now Dave and George have let the United Kingdom as disunited as it has been since the war, your answer is to........... blame the voters.
I'm not blaming the voters, I'm amused at their chutzpah
"The majority have no right to do wrong!" - Eamonn de Valera, after his Anti-Treaty Sinn Fein lost the June 1922 Free State election to the Pro-Treaty faction.
Unbelievable to see posters like Barnesian saying sod the will of the public, as I don't agree with the result of the referendum Parliament should ignore it. The arrogance is breathtaking.
Parliament should act in the interests of the public. The public believe that Brexit will lead to scads of money and less immigration. Personally, I believe Article 50 should have been invoked if the referendum were indeed the democratic say of the people, but given LEAVE's unwillingness to actually begin to leave the EU, the mandate of the referendum becomes one of spirit and may be superceded by changes in public opinion, events or an election which returns a parliament not minded to enforce an advisory plebiscite, probably due to one of the first two reasons.
What is it with the Remainer obsession that article 50 be invoked immediately? The text of the treaty offer us a way to let the dust settle as it were, before beginning formal negotiations (for instance, we may need two new party leaders in short time). Surely this is in the interest of both us and the EU?
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
Boston - 76% leave South Holland -74% Castle Point - 73% Thurrock - 72% Great Yarmouth - 72% Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71% NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70% Havering (Hornchurch) - 70% Cannock - 69% Basildon - 69% Harlow - 68% Tamworth - 68% Blackpool - 68% N Warwickshire - 67% Rochford - 67% Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66% Broxbourne - 66% Nuneaton - 66% Gravesham - 65% Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I am waiting for the boundary changes as that will see the deselection of a whole crop of the shysters who pretended to be eurosceptic.
Right here, right now, with today's politics, she doesn't need to offer anything economically. I think Scotland is viable and wealthy as an Independent state and that the deficit would be around £5bn on current spending levels.
Others may disagree.
But the truth is irrelevant right now. A referendum in September will see Yes romp home by 15pts at least.
Indeed
If Brexit has shown anything, it is that raw politics (immigration, sovereignty, cheap slogans) can trump (sic) economics
And if England has just voted to make the UK poorer in the long run, the risks to Scotland of separation are that much less
If she does it right she can win, and win big
As someone said, Scotland can be viable as an independent country, but it can't be independent and socialist.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
Oh it's undoubtedly true. One social media post I've seen 'I hope Europe PUNISHES us'. Ghastly. Unhealthy self-loathing younger generation.
Agreed, that's nauseating. On the other hand there are plenty
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
There a plenty of people who voted for Remain who are are simply very worried about the possible financial implications of Brexit. And quite a few repentant Leavers as well it appears. I doubt the Boris and Gove show will have calmed to many fears on Friday. Perhaps you should consider that rather than making snide comments about keyboard warriors.
Clicktivists need to be mocked. I wonder how many of those youngsters signing the petition for a second referendum failed to actually vote in the first?
Utter scorn is too good for them.
18-24yr 36% TO
Says it all really.
Even 25-34yrs was only 53% TO
You have to be in it to win it.
Many of us oldsters have signed the petition. It isn't over yet. The referendum was only advisory and the result was very close. We are a representative democracy. MPs need to step up and veto this. Boris might be relieved.
Pfft
What a desperate fellow you are. More eligible voters said Leave than in any election since universal suffrage.
And you cite a made up petition packed with MickeyMouse@VaticanCity.com as a valid comparison?
All this second referendum nonsense is like last year when all the idiots were claiming well the Tories don't have a mandate to form a majority government because they only secured 11 million votes out of 40 million adults.
Most remainers have advanced to Anger or even Bargaining but you're stuck in Denial.
...........Mirror Test: If 48 LEAVE, would people be saying it was a MI5 fix and demanding another referendum?
There would be a tiny % of LEAVErs howling away in the margins. None of them PB regulars as I expect all PB LEAVErs to show the usual level of sense and respect for democracy. Personally I would just wait for the inevitable break up of the EU due to other events. Losing the referendum would not be the end of the world, I would not take it as a personal insult or question the intelligence of people who voted for REMAIN. There is a right way to behave and far too many REMAINers seem to be having a temper tantrum.
What I don't get is the LEAVErs having a temper tantrum. Some of them are saying I spew bile and calling me a bitch.
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
The only problem with this is that there are quite a few Tory constituencies that had massive Brexit votes and would be vulnerable to UKIP
Boston - 76% leave South Holland -74% Castle Point - 73% Thurrock - 72% Great Yarmouth - 72% Fenland (NE Cambs) - 71% NE Lincs (Cleethorpes) -70% Havering (Hornchurch) - 70% Cannock - 69% Basildon - 69% Harlow - 68% Tamworth - 68% Blackpool - 68% N Warwickshire - 67% Rochford - 67% Kings Lynn (NW Norfolk) - 66% Broxbourne - 66% Nuneaton - 66% Gravesham - 65% Forest Heath (W Suffolk) - 65%
It'd be fascinating to see the marginalish seats where MPs said they were Eurosceptic and then came out for Remain.
My MP Caroline Ansell came out for Brexit very late - Eastbourne went 57% Leave. She didn't campaign for selection on her EU position IIRC.
I was quite surprised at how well (relatively) Remain did in Eastbourne. Why do you think that was? Proximity to Brighton or traditional Lib Dem strength? ( Sorry for being a nerd).
Unbelievable to see posters like Barnesian saying sod the will of the public, as I don't agree with the result of the referendum Parliament should ignore it. The arrogance is breathtaking.
Parliament should act in the interests of the public. The public believe that Brexit will lead to scads of money and less immigration. Personally, I believe Article 50 should have been invoked if the referendum were indeed the democratic say of the people, but given LEAVE's unwillingness to actually begin to leave the EU, the mandate of the referendum becomes one of spirit and may be superceded by changes in public opinion, events or an election which returns a parliament not minded to enforce an advisory plebiscite, probably due to one of the first two reasons.
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
)
.
.
What have EU got to gain by allowing Scotland in with opt-outs? Don't you think some of the other recent applicants who would love some of the opt-outs might object?
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
The SNP do not need that.
They need a number of credible EU voices saying that Scotland will be fast-tracked to inherit the UK membership with UK opt outs and call a snap Referendum this September. It will be overwhelmingly yes.
They can go with "Sterling to start then decide" on currency and it will be perfectly acceptable. The momentum needs to be used not delayed. The only way to stop Scottish Independence is to delay the vote.
I don't think that Scotland will get the opt outs that the UK has. Slightly different for a country of 5 million and a small part to play in the European economy compared to the UK's influence. If Scotland is to join the EU is means the full package which is what might make some SNP supporters have 2nd thoughts. However I agree that if there was a vote held quickly (and I don't think that it could happen before mid October at the very earliest) then YES would win but it would be without a clear plan of exactly what would would happen next, a bit like the leave result.
What have EU got to gain by allowing Scotland in with opt-outs? Don't you think some of the other recent applicants who would love some of the opt-outs might object?
Why would Scotland need the opt-outs ? Those were negotiated to keep the Tory loonies happy !
If an independent Scotland doesn't get an opt out of Schengen it has to repudiate the CTA. That wouldn't be good for Scotland...
I would suggest all those banging on about second referendum might be better asking why it is that so many millions of people in midland and northern towns charged to the ballot box unseen for donkeys years to vote Leave, despite most being Labour strongholds.
Piece of advice....rather than hitting refresh on your browser to sign the petition again...head over to Guardian and read / watch John Harris stuff from the past 2 years.
We will get through the Brexit transition, some good things, some bad things, but we have a big societal problem and none of the parties want to admit it or tackle it.
What is it with the Remainer obsession that article 50 be invoked immediately?
Why are leavers so scared of, you know, actually Leaving?
You cropped out my argument of why there is a delay. Surely it is in our interest to strive for the best deal possible. You don't get that by beginning negotiations with a lame duck PM.
Back again after being shut out the most exciting week in PB's history.
You could at least read what was going on? You must be quite pleased lol!
I am ecstatic, beyond my fondest dreams. So much so that I forecast a narrow Remain win when we all posted our forecasts to a list weeks ago. Haven't seen any results of that exercise, so far.
This is talking about the UK leaving and Scotland staying. It doesn't appear to talk about Scotland separating before Article 50 talks conclude
You don't know what deal Britain will strike with the EU, right now the British incentive would be to include as many goodies for scotland in any deal as possible and hope for the scots to approve it. If the SNP tries to rush things then the incentive reverses, Britain will try to make a deal that is as worse as possible for scotland.
It's a gamble basically, can the SNP trust all the other EU countries that they won't betray them to the British in exchange for favourable terms in the Brexit deal?
For instance Poland and Britain may strike a deal over the status of polish workers in exchange for freezing scotland out of the EU.
Britain doesn't need to freeze Scotland out of the EU.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify. 2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden.
Didn't I read in a Guardian article that said the youth vote "came out in force".... one for the corrections & clarifications dept.
Just about everything journalists have said about the referendum over the last couple of months has been wrong. They seem to be in some sort of competition with the pollsters to mislead the stock markets and politicians.
Right here, right now, with today's politics, she doesn't need to offer anything economically. I think Scotland is viable and wealthy as an Independent state and that the deficit would be around £5bn on current spending levels.
Others may disagree.
But the truth is irrelevant right now. A referendum in September will see Yes romp home by 15pts at least.
Indeed
If Brexit has shown anything, it is that raw politics (immigration, sovereignty, cheap slogans) can trump (sic) economics
And if England has just voted to make the UK poorer in the long run, the risks to Scotland of separation are that much less
If she does it right she can win, and win big
As someone said, Scotland can be viable as an independent country, but it can't be independent and socialist.
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
)
.
.
What have EU got to gain by allowing Scotland in with opt-outs? Don't you think some of the other recent applicants who would love some of the opt-outs might object?
What did I tell you. Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
The SNP do not need that.
They need a number of credible EU voices saying that Scotland will be fast-tracked to inherit the UK membership with UK opt outs and call a snap Referendum this September. It will be overwhelmingly yes.
They can go with "Sterling to start then decide" on currency and it will be perfectly acceptable. The momentum needs to be used not delayed. The only way to stop Scottish Independence is to delay the vote.
I don't think that Scotland will get the opt outs that the UK has. Slightly different for a country of 5 million and a small part to play in the European economy compared to the UK's influence. If Scotland is to join the EU is means the full package which is what might make some SNP supporters have 2nd thoughts. However I agree that if there was a vote held quickly (and I don't think that it could happen before mid October at the very earliest) then YES would win but it would be without a clear plan of exactly what would would happen next, a bit like the leave result.
What have EU got to gain by allowing Scotland in with opt-outs? Don't you think some of the other recent applicants who would love some of the opt-outs might object?
Why would Scotland need the opt-outs ? Those were negotiated to keep the Tory loonies happy !
Well having to pay in twice as much per head as now might start to cool Scottish ardour.
This is talking about the UK leaving and Scotland staying. It doesn't appear to talk about Scotland separating before Article 50 talks conclude
You don't know what deal Britain will strike with the EU, right now the British incentive would be to include as many goodies for scotland in any deal as possible and hope for the scots to approve it. If the SNP tries to rush things then the incentive reverses, Britain will try to make a deal that is as worse as possible for scotland.
It's a gamble basically, can the SNP trust all the other EU countries that they won't betray them to the British in exchange for favourable terms in the Brexit deal?
For instance Poland and Britain may strike a deal over the status of polish workers in exchange for freezing scotland out of the EU.
Britain doesn't need to freeze Scotland out of the EU.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify. 2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden. A look at the SNP's EU Parliament allies shows how unwelcome their membership would be.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
If you can't handle a rise in interest rates - which is certainly going to happen at some point - then you shouldn't be buying a house.
Not an issue for me, mortgage nearly paid in full. Concerned that younger housebuyers would be put off buying completely, would prefer to sell to a buyer rather than a buy to letter or some such.
Unbelievable to see posters like Barnesian saying sod the will of the public, as I don't agree with the result of the referendum Parliament should ignore it. The arrogance is breathtaking.
Parliament should act in the interests of the public. The public believe that Brexit will lead to scads of money and less immigration. Personally, I believe Article 50 should have been invoked if the referendum were indeed the democratic say of the people, but given LEAVE's unwillingness to actually begin to leave the EU, the mandate of the referendum becomes one of spirit and may be superceded by changes in public opinion, events or an election which returns a parliament not minded to enforce an advisory plebiscite, probably due to one of the first two reasons.
What is it with the Remainer obsession that article 50 be invoked immediately? The text of the treaty offer us a way to let the dust settle as it were, before beginning formal negotiations (for instance, we may need two new party leaders in short time). Surely this is in the interest of both us and the EU?
At the most practical level, investors need impressions of the negotiation's possible outcomes and investment plans may not necessarily work to politicians' electoral timetables. I also fear that unseemly delay discredits the main parties as not listening to the public will and opens the door at future elections to parties I do not think should now be empowered.
To be fair, Boris won his independence referendum...
Boris has - whatever his flaws - an X Factor. He can bridge gaps no other Tory can. He's a positive force, people who've no idea what Latin or wiff-waff are go all fuzzy around him.
I've no idea quite how he does it. But it works. He's unthreatening, very clever in an oddly unsmartpants way and makes people smile. He's totally imperfect - and that doesn't harm him either.
He doesn't get anxious when others throw crap at him, and smiles along when his dad disagrees. It's almost always water off a rueful duck's back.
Re: Scotland. Leaving a union in which you are one of the biggest net contributors is one thing. Leaving a union in which you are one of the biggest net recipients is another.
You cropped out my argument of why there is a delay. Surely it is in our interest to strive for the best deal possible.
"How do we get a good deal from Europe?"
"Let's start by pissing about for 3 months before starting"
"Solid plan..."
Yeah, that is an argument for doing it now, but Cameron isn't in a position to negotiate as he has lost all his legitimacy. So it would only shorten our nominal 2 year period to a 1 year 8 month negotiating period.
This is talking about the UK leaving and Scotland staying. It doesn't appear to talk about Scotland separating before Article 50 talks conclude
You don't know what deal Britain will strike with the EU, right now the British incentive would be to include as many goodies for scotland in any deal as possible and hope for the scots to approve it. If the SNP tries to rush things then the incentive reverses, Britain will try to make a deal that is as worse as possible for scotland.
It's a gamble basically, can the SNP trust all the other EU countries that they won't betray them to the British in exchange for favourable terms in the Brexit deal?
For instance Poland and Britain may strike a deal over the status of polish workers in exchange for freezing scotland out of the EU.
Britain doesn't need to freeze Scotland out of the EU.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify. 2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
Oh it's undoubtedly true. One social media post I've seen 'I hope Europe PUNISHES us'. Ghastly. Unhealthy self-loathing younger generation.
Agreed, that's nauseating. On the other hand there are plenty
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
There a plenty of people who voted for Remain who are are simply very worried about the possible financial implications of Brexit. And quite a few repentant Leavers as well it appears. I doubt the Boris and Gove show will have calmed to many fears on Friday. Perhaps you should consider that rather than making snide comments about keyboard warriors.
Clicktivists need to be mocked. I wonder how many of those youngsters signing the petition for a second referendum failed to actually vote in the first?
Utter scorn is too good for them.
18-24yr 36% TO
Says it all really.
Even 25-34yrs was only 53% TO
You have to be in it to win it.
Many of us oldsters have signed the petition. It isn't over yet.
It is.
And as an oldie and a Briton, you should recognise democracy when you see it.
Given the hysteria at the moment I'm amazed its not higher than that!
Excluding don't knows its 65%
A Union can only exist if all its constituent members are prepared to accept the outcome of losing a vote.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
They will and build a very prosperous Scotland that is part of the EU with Edinburgh becoming the most vibrant city in Europe.
The biggest victim of Brexit will be London, our cash cow.
FWIW- I really don't think we'll get good terms from our Ex Euro neighbours. Ultimately as the UK becomes poorer, they have a lot to gain from attracting away our investors. If we keep the Single Market, we are going to have to pay a very heavy, inflated price for it.
There was a leading Indian businessman on the radio last night who just couldn't get his head around how we could vote Brexit.
This came from Tim Farron to me by mass email tonight:
"I believe our country’s future is still best served by our membership of the European Union, despite its flaws. Millions of our fellow citizens believe that. I also believe many of those people share our vision of a country that is tolerant, compassionate and positive about Britain’s role for good in the world. They share our vision of a country that wants to repair its divisions by working hard together, not by offering cheap slogans.
That is why I want to make clear that the Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore Britain’s prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not outside it."
Be interesting to know in 18-24 sample, how many students actually turned out.
I mentioned on the day if Cameron had made a mistake. 3 weeks earlier and students would have all still been at uni and much easier to herd them to the polling stations.
This is talking about the UK leaving and Scotland staying. It doesn't appear to talk about Scotland separating before Article 50 talks conclude
You don't know what deal Britain will strike with the EU, right now the British incentive would be to include as many goodies for scotland in any deal as possible and hope for the scots to approve it. If the SNP tries to rush things then the incentive reverses, Britain will try to make a deal that is as worse as possible for scotland.
It's a gamble basically, can the SNP trust all the other EU countries that they won't betray them to the British in exchange for favourable terms in the Brexit deal?
For instance Poland and Britain may strike a deal over the status of polish workers in exchange for freezing scotland out of the EU.
Britain doesn't need to freeze Scotland out of the EU.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify. 2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden.
This is some amazingly 2014 thinking.
Dazzle me. Is Scotland a state? Do other EU member states not have secessionist problems of their own?
Does the EU have too much free time on its hands and a desire to faff about with pointless meeting or, does it perhaps have serious, difficult problems to deal with already, without inventing new problems for itself?
I did a quick survey at the parents fundraiser this morning on indy ref 2 and support.
This is in Aberdeen which voted NO in 2014.
20 people asked mostly women 15 now YES; 4 NO; 1 Don't Know.
7 say they had changed No to Yes, 1 from Yes to No.
Interestingly of the 8 people who had voted OUT of Europe 4 were still voting YES. The one who had changed from Yes to No was nothing to do with Europe - she preferred Salmond to Sturgeon!
Just a straw poll but perhaps not out of line with other peoples' experience.
I have changed from YES on principle to I would need to read the small print to see if it is in my self-interest because national self-determination is clearly out of the window.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Looking at a property this afternoon in West Yorks. I said I was concerned about interest rates going up and estate agent gleefully told me that things are going to be okay now. I pointed out the fall in sterling and got a deafening silence. She offered up the comment 'I bet you can tell how I voted'. Frosty conversation ensued where she refused to accept that I had legitimate concerns. Viewing ended by her denigrating southerners. I have various options, no way an old bigot is going to benefit from my money.
Felt better for the first time in a couple of days...
If you can't handle a rise in interest rates - which is certainly going to happen at some point - then you shouldn't be buying a house.
Not an issue for me, mortgage nearly paid in full. Concerned that younger housebuyers would be put off buying completely, would prefer to sell to a buyer rather than a buy to letter or some such.
Amazing how many people seem to think that the movements in the markets the day after the vote offer any real insight into the real economic consequences of the decision. And this applies to Remainers citing the slump in the £ as evidence that all the bad predictions have come true, or Leavers saying "crisis over, that wasn't so bad after all".
Let's not forget that just around 3 weeks ago, HenryG, a very smart cookie on all things Labour, was suggesting Lisa Nandy as his pick to be the next Labour leader, currently on offer at around 14.5 with Betfair Ex. That's good enough for me. There's bound to be a female candidate and she appears to be the most likely. DYOR.
US networks reported that the LEAVE campaign, which successfully fought for the UK to withdraw from the European Union, gave away condoms during the campaign which had 'PULL OUT' written on them.
Presumably it read 'Put' at first, but when the moment was right it read 'Pull Out'.
The BBC would do itself a favour by not retweeting The Daily Hate without the sort of health warning that appears on cigarette packets. It should read "Warning this newspaper can bring about a recession".
There is no secret EU report on Scotland. What there is now is a number of influential figures already breaking cover to confirm meetings with Sturgeon.
! They overestimate the youth vote by a factor of almost two. No wonder they were so out.
I said on the night of the count, when the polls were pointing heavily towards a large remain win, that my last hope was a massive weighting cock up. I was probably right then.
Comments
Not sure if you were being serious or not, but Sunil clearly has a valid point. Any EU citizen has the right to simply come to the UK, and live and work here. An Indian or Thai or Filipino who touches down here, can't just rent a house and start looking for a job in the same way. Far more hoops to jump through.
If we had a system that didn't discriminate based on nationality, then we either give freedom of movement - the right to come to Britain, stay and work here - to every person on the planet (and there are very well-intentioned folk who argue for just that) or we apply a system of rules that applies to everybody, EU or non-EU.
Now there may be benefits to a system that discriminates based on nationality. But it would be silly to argue that the current system doesn't discriminate. Personally I'm uneasy with that, in a vein similar to my distaste for the old American system of immigration quotas by country
So what you are saying is basically do anything it takes to get a YES vote, the consequences thereof and the lies that might need to be told do not matter?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/hilary-benn-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-eu-referendum-brexit
Boris Johnson, Andrea Leadsom,
Liam Fox, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab
Michael Gove, David Davis,
Gove and Davis can probably be ruled out.
Goodnight.
- Eamonn de Valera, after his Anti-Treaty Sinn Fein lost the June 1922 Free State election to the Pro-Treaty faction.
What a desperate fellow you are. More eligible voters said Leave than in any election since universal suffrage.
And you cite a made up petition packed with MickeyMouse@VaticanCity.com as a valid comparison?
Which apparently isn't like him...
Piece of advice....rather than hitting refresh on your browser to sign the petition again...head over to Guardian and read / watch John Harris stuff from the past 2 years.
We will get through the Brexit transition, some good things, some bad things, but we have a big societal problem and none of the parties want to admit it or tackle it.
Running: Boris, May, Morgan, Crabb, Freeman
Probably: Fox, Leadsom
Possibly: Hunt
Probably Not: Osborne, Javid
Osborne, probably not... titters.
1. Scotland isn't a state, so it doesn't qualify.
2. Several other EU member states have their own secessionist movements that they do not want to embolden.
"Let's start by pissing about for 3 months before starting"
"Solid plan..."
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/brexit-democratic-failure-for-uk-by-kenneth-rogoff-2016-06
[a href="URL"]my link[/a]
replace [] with <>
@MetroUK: Lib Dems promise to keep Britain in the EU if Brexit sparks general election https://t.co/DcWDW8QBKH
I've no idea quite how he does it. But it works. He's unthreatening, very clever in an oddly unsmartpants way and makes people smile. He's totally imperfect - and that doesn't harm him either.
He doesn't get anxious when others throw crap at him, and smiles along when his dad disagrees. It's almost always water off a rueful duck's back.
Not surprised, the last Ipsos Mori poll had 79% of all voters as 10/10 to vote and turnout was 72%.
ComRes had 18-24 at 63% 10/10 to vote, and 25-34 at 75% 10/10, on the eve of voting:
http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Daily-Mail-ITV-News_EU-Referendum-Survey_22nd-June-2016_61021xh5.pdf
Keep them waiting outside the door.
Five, six, seven, eight
Always pays to make them wait.
Nine, ten. Come!
(CJ - Fall and rise of Reginald Perrin)
And as an oldie and a Briton, you should recognise democracy when you see it.
"I believe our country’s future is still best served by our membership of the European Union, despite its flaws. Millions of our fellow citizens believe that. I also believe many of those people share our vision of a country that is tolerant, compassionate and positive about Britain’s role for good in the world. They share our vision of a country that wants to repair its divisions by working hard together, not by offering cheap slogans.
That is why I want to make clear that the Liberal Democrats will fight the next election on a clear and unequivocal promise to restore Britain’s prosperity and role in the world, with the United Kingdom in the European Union, not outside it."
Liz Truss should be shut up in a truss and quietly forgotten.
I'm looking forward to the Wif-Waf Prime Minister.
I mentioned on the day if Cameron had made a mistake. 3 weeks earlier and students would have all still been at uni and much easier to herd them to the polling stations.
Does the EU have too much free time on its hands and a desire to faff about with pointless meeting or, does it perhaps have serious, difficult problems to deal with already, without inventing new problems for itself?
She's like Scotland's Maggie (on completely the other side of the political spectrum obviously)
That's good enough for me. There's bound to be a female candidate and she appears to be the most likely.
DYOR.
Presumably it read 'Put' at first, but when the moment was right it read 'Pull Out'.
There is no secret EU report on Scotland. What there is now is a number of influential figures already breaking cover to confirm meetings with Sturgeon.