One of the more interesting discussions yesterday and today at work.
An independent Scotland becomes the successor state of the UK, thus retains membership of the EU.
All the financial services firms and banks move to Scotland, thus making up and outdoing the shortfall in oil revenues.
I really don't want to have to make regular trips to France.
Reuters were reporting sauces suggesting that firms were already eyeing up Edinburgh.
Already got a massive outsized financial sector so plenty of talent and infrastructure. And as I am a home owner the huge house price rise will be in my favour.
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
Well, that's going to be a lot of angry Leave voters when Boris fails to deliver any reduction in immigration (and quite possibly an increase)
There will be an upsurge before the door closes. After all, Leavers have said no one will be deported.
Yep, I would expect immigration from the EU to go through the roof in the next 6 months. It's going to be fun to watch.
Surely not?! We're international pariahs. Who would want to come to such a horrible country?
Visit Britain should headhunt Mr Meeks - that'd put them off.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
Perhaps. But I was speaking of the direction of travel.
@faisalislam: The task: unstitching decades of diplomacy, managing real questions about UK coherence, amid market turbulence, and leadership vacuum... 1/2
@faisalislam: It's House of Cards meets Game of Thrones, a spot of the Big Short and plenty of the Thick of It too. But this is very real. 2/2
Anyone think Boris is the man for job? Anyone?
Boris is definitely without question the man to be the popular figurehead, he can win the Tories the next election without a doubt, the referendum proved that he is a sure vote winner.
Let a committee made up of Leavers of all stripes do the small print of the negotiations, let the cabinet govern the country, and put a cheerful Boris on TV to defend all that.
It's a bit like a TV show. Boris is the charismatic star of the show, but the show needs supporting actors, writers, directors and producers. There are a lot of moving parts that make a show successful.
The ideal way for a political machine in work would look like the Larry Sanders show.
Rob Ford (of "Revolt of the Right") speaks for me too: "Utter madness. Can't think of a better "out of touch" signal than London Labour MP calling for referendum result to be ignored."
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
Janice Turner put it well. People who are tolerant and have embraced huge social change are livid at being called Little Englanders. If Remainers want to know why they lost, they should take a long hard look in the mirror.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
So you are saying take back control can, probably does, mean cut immigration, given the known priorities of UK voters.
A great many voters are bothered by it because it's unplanned in terms of public services and housing - it's also replacing their own culture and values. I fail to see the problem with accepting this is a fact.
You are pathetically attempting to portray all those who are concerned or disadvantaged by it as bigots and racists.
Do carry on not listening.
Tell me where I wrote that anyone who wants to reduce immigration is a bigot or a racist - I didn't. You are reading too much into a dispute over the importance of immigration in the referendum, which you have now accepted. I think lots of people on both REMAIN and LEAVE and who are pro- and anti-immigration are racist and lots aren't. The idea that British culture is being replaced in Britain is just silly, but that's a new addition to the argument.
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Snap..
For me it's also revealed to my surprise that I cared more about Europe than I realised. The last 48 hours have been whether I'm so headbanging on the antisceptic side that I'd countenance the lib dems.. not I think but orange bookers would possibly be.
The developing war between the hannan/carswell vision and farage extremists is looking messy. An unholy team which now fights over the victory spoils..
I think the best option for us fiscally dry, socially liberal, not obsessed by the gays and Europe Tories is to stick to our principles from inside the party.
I mean if we can cope with the IDS years, we can cope with this.
To paraphrase Barbara Castle, my party will need me to save it.
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
Not really, no.
One only has to read Giles Coren, Alex Massie or Matthew Parris to realise there are some nasty bigots on either side.
There was a cringe-inducing piece on the BBC earlier "And now we go to Castle Point, an area with the highest % of white, English speaking voters in the UK - we're expecting a high Leave vote"
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
So what....because you've seen worse doesn't make it acceptable.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
The classic "do our country down" political defence. Timeless as it is effective.
Considering that polls been done pretty much in the aftermath of the known result, I am surprised it's only 59%. One wonders if it is a tougher sell than it is made out (let's not forgot currency arguments, economy and oil, defence etc arguments)
@faisalislam: The task: unstitching decades of diplomacy, managing real questions about UK coherence, amid market turbulence, and leadership vacuum... 1/2
@faisalislam: It's House of Cards meets Game of Thrones, a spot of the Big Short and plenty of the Thick of It too. But this is very real. 2/2
Anyone think Boris is the man for job? Anyone?
Boris is definitely without question the man to be the popular figurehead, he can win the Tories the next election without a doubt, the referendum proved that he is a sure vote winner.
Let a committee made up of Leavers of all stripes do the small print of the negotiations, let the cabinet govern the country, and put a cheerful Boris on TV to defend all that.
It's a bit like a TV show. Boris is the charismatic star of the show, but the show needs supporting actors, writers, directors and producers. There are a lot of moving parts that make a show successful.
The ideal way for a political machine in work would look like the Larry Sanders show.
Quoted for TRUTH. Cameron himself wasn't a 'details man'. A PM is only as good as their support structure, even Thatcher.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Do you not think the Guardianish vote is the most secure part of the Labour vote right now, though? Admittedly I might be doing my own version of Mandelson's complacent "they have nowhere else to go" thing, but I have to admit it's my impression that a lot of metro Labour voters from Hackney and Islington would stick with the party no matter what.
By contrast, the "traditional" Labour voters of the Tynesides of the world are much more disconnected from the party, I think.
If the Labour offer is we'll tax you more + we want less foreigners then, yeah, they have somewhere else to go
I would argue that "we'll tax you more" is much more sellable to the public than "we want more foreigners".
I watched some of Gordon's speech and I thought he'd got it all wrong. He went on and on about giving communities really hit hard by immigration more money. I reflexively thought - nope. These are proud Brits who want their country back, not some handout in exchange for your identity.
One of the more interesting discussions yesterday and today at work.
An independent Scotland becomes the successor state of the UK, thus retains membership of the EU.
All the financial services firms and banks move to Scotland, thus making up and outdoing the shortfall in oil revenues.
I really don't want to have to make regular trips to France.
Reuters were reporting sauces suggesting that firms were already eyeing up Edinburgh.
Already got a massive outsized financial sector so plenty of talent and infrastructure. And as I am a home owner the huge house price rise will be in my favour.
Would that be HP sauces perhaps?
(It's the way I tell 'em!)
I post on another forum where the deliberate use of sauce/source is a long time running gag. I did it without even thinking it is so natural to me now.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
Oh it's undoubtedly true. One social media post I've seen 'I hope Europe PUNISHES us'. Ghastly. Unhealthy self-loathing younger generation.
I think the French are seeing this as something of an opportunity.
Obviously they have their own problems with anti-EU sentiment from the FN etc - but even if Marine Le Pen wins the presidential she won't win the legislative so she won't have the power to call a referendum - and I think we can assume no other mainstream governments are going make Cameron's mistake and have a referendum.
The general opinion (I have vox popped various frenchies I know here, anecdotal yes, but then that proved more accurate for the EURref!) is basically "the english have always wanted to do everything differently to the rest of europe. If the aren't happy they should leave. They are holding us back"
There's certainly no 'anger' that we rejected the EU. Young french people may worry that this is our Trump moment but generally speaking it seems fairly calm here.
Even my own girlfriend, putting aside the personal complications this presents for us, said today she was glad we had voted out.
Note the different tones form Merkel and Hollande. Hollande sees this as a chance to shove Britain out ASAP and re-frenchify the EU, Merkel is bricking it at the loss of a potential ally within the EU!
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
Revolutions wind up consuming their own. I am looking forward to the Tory party destroying itself.
Then the WWC will turn on the Public schoolboys who thought it was all about Sovereignty rather than immigration.
It is like watching Christiano Ronaldo's face when he cocks it up again. Schadenfreude...
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
Well, that's going to be a lot of angry Leave voters when Boris fails to deliver any reduction in immigration (and quite possibly an increase)
There will be an upsurge before the door closes. After all, Leavers have said no one will be deported.
Yep, I would expect immigration from the EU to go through the roof in the next 6 months. It's going to be fun to watch.
Surely not?! We're international pariahs. Who would want to come to such a horrible country?
Visit Britain should headhunt Mr Meeks - that'd put them off.
Bile.
Vapid Bilge
Bile is the new vapid bilge. It is an irregular noun: I engage in the robust debate PB is noted for. You write vapid bilge. He spews bile.
Considering that polls been done pretty much in the aftermath of the known result, I am surprised it's only 59%. One wonders if it is a tougher sell than it is made out (let's not forgot currency arguments, economy and oil, defence etc arguments)
I'm sure ultra-charismatic Brussels enthusiast Sturgeon will get the job done.
I wanted us to remain but look. The size of the financial sector is destroying London anyway. It would be a good thing in the long run for both London and the UK if the sector was downsized.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Do you not think the Guardianish vote is the most secure part of the Labour vote right now, though? Admittedly I might be doing my own version of Mandelson's complacent "they have nowhere else to go" thing, but I have to admit it's my impression that a lot of metro Labour voters from Hackney and Islington would stick with the party no matter what.
By contrast, the "traditional" Labour voters of the Tynesides of the world are much more disconnected from the party, I think.
If the Labour offer is we'll tax you more + we want less foreigners then, yeah, they have somewhere else to go
I would argue that "we'll tax you more" is much more sellable to the public than "we want more foreigners".
I watched some of Gordon's speech and I thought he'd got it all wrong. He went on and on about giving communities really hit hard by immigration more money. I reflexively thought - nope. These are proud Brits who want their country back, not some handout in exchange.
Brown's credits obsession to get as many people receiving some public money handouts always was one of his favourites
I wanted us to remain but look. The size of the financial sector is destroying London anyway. It would be a good thing in the long run for both London and the UK if the sector was downsized.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Do you not think the Guardianish vote is the most secure part of the Labour vote right now, though? Admittedly I might be doing my own version of Mandelson's complacent "they have nowhere else to go" thing, but I have to admit it's my impression that a lot of metro Labour voters from Hackney and Islington would stick with the party no matter what.
By contrast, the "traditional" Labour voters of the Tynesides of the world are much more disconnected from the party, I think.
If the Labour offer is we'll tax you more + we want less foreigners then, yeah, they have somewhere else to go
I would argue that "we'll tax you more" is much more sellable to the public than "we want more foreigners".
I watched some of Gordon's speech and I thought he'd got it all wrong. He went on and on about giving communities really hit hard by immigration more money. I reflexively thought - nope. These are proud Brits who want their country back, not some handout in exchange for your identity.
They have always had their country, in what sense don't they have it and how will removing immigrants give it to them?
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
Janice Turner put it well. People who are tolerant and have embraced huge social change are livid at being called Little Englanders. If Remainers want to know why they lost, they should take a long hard look in the mirror.
Hi, did u do any canvassing in Luton? what sort of reception did u get from Asian British voters were they leaning out?
...The size of the financial sector is destroying London anyway. It would be a good thing in the long run for both London and the UK if the sector was downsized.
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
I pounded the streets in SW London (Merton 63% remain) - quite happy with that result.
All this talk of coming together and uniting after the referendum is all well and good but when one campaign was largely based on xenophobia, I sadly will not unite with people who fly the racism flag.
As a second generation immigrant, I do feel for the first time in my life a sense of uneasiness, a sense of worthlessness, s sense of fear. Am I really truly welcome in this country? Had lunch with other immigrant friends today and that feeling was largely shared. Sad, very sad.
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
Perhaps. But I was speaking of the direction of travel.
then you dont know what road this country has taken
in the 70s racism was quite common with NF marches and street fights in the 80s there were race riots in the 90s football fans regularly chanted racist slogans in the 00s the BNP died as an electoral force in the 10s you complain about a twat in a t shirt
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Do you not think the Guardianish vote is the most secure part of the Labour vote right now, though? Admittedly I might be doing my own version of Mandelson's complacent "they have nowhere else to go" thing, but I have to admit it's my impression that a lot of metro Labour voters from Hackney and Islington would stick with the party no matter what.
By contrast, the "traditional" Labour voters of the Tynesides of the world are much more disconnected from the party, I think.
If the Labour offer is we'll tax you more + we want less foreigners then, yeah, they have somewhere else to go
I would argue that "we'll tax you more" is much more sellable to the public than "we want more foreigners".
I watched some of Gordon's speech and I thought he'd got it all wrong. He went on and on about giving communities really hit hard by immigration more money. I reflexively thought - nope. These are proud Brits who want their country back, not some handout in exchange for your identity.
They have always had their country, in what sense don't they have it and how will removing immigrants give it to them?
Yeh right...get your country back, let's kick out foreigners. Not quite British. And Plato was trying to convince us before that immigration had nothing to do with the vote.
I wanted us to remain but look. The size of the financial sector is destroying London anyway. It would be a good thing in the long run for both London and the UK if the sector was downsized.
How is it destroying London?
You could say income inequality, localized high inflation, strain on transport, pressure on the environment.
Britain Elects @britainelects 32s33 seconds ago New #IndyRef poll for the Sunday Post puts support for Scottish independence at 59%: (pollster unknown)
@faisalislam: Ah - "EU must make clear that it remains open to Scots & N. Irish" France's third party leader letter to Hollande: https://t.co/4xpRsPwcAL
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
Perhaps. But I was speaking of the direction of travel.
Nah, back in the 1970s you had the National Front telling my grandfather to go back home.
We had the Blackshirts in the 30s.
I've always admired the British response to racists demagogues, laugh at them.
We didn't need the European Union for the UK to form the anti-apartheid movement nor did we need it for the country to realise Enoch Powell was a racist.
Currently 3271 of the signatures on the petition for a second referendum are from the Vatican City. I know Pope Francis wanted us to Remain but..
Wait a moment, the Vatican doesn't even have that number of people living in it.
Something tells me that you may have found evidence of fraud, and that the petition might be a scam.
There is a clickthrough below the petition - reveals some interesting locations for signatory signers - now some may be upset expats or concerned citizens of other nations but I'm dubious and the Vatican City figure sticks out like a sore thumb. A poster earlier said he had signed it three times.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Seems to me that some Remainers would rather see the world collapse around us, if that meant they could enjoy the simple narcissistic satisfaction of being proved right.
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
It's quite interesting isn't it?
Oh it's undoubtedly true. One social media post I've seen 'I hope Europe PUNISHES us'. Ghastly. Unhealthy self-loathing younger generation.
Agreed, that's nauseating. On the other hand there are plenty
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
There a plenty of people who voted for Remain who are are simply very worried about the possible financial implications of Brexit. And quite a few repentant Leavers as well it appears. I doubt the Boris and Gove show will have calmed to many fears on Friday. Perhaps you should consider that rather than making snide comments about keyboard warriors.
I wanted us to remain but look. The size of the financial sector is destroying London anyway. It would be a good thing in the long run for both London and the UK if the sector was downsized.
How is it destroying London?
You could say income inequality, localized high inflation, strain on transport, pressure on the environment.
After 24 hours? When it was 49% a few weeks back? Early days yet, mind.
This is peak Brexit panic time. 59%?
Hahahahaha - Scots are just way too sensible.
I don't know about that. One salient issue is that things up here are a haven of order and calm compared with Whitehall and Westminster. The longer chaos and uncertainty continue in London, the more people will remember that we were promised chaos and uncertainty if we voted yes in indyref. And we have to wait 3 months+ before we even know who is PM and negotiations even begin?!
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Well said. As my mum used to say - what you throw at us bounces off and sticks to you.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
Not really, no.
One only has to read Giles Coren, Alex Massie or Matthew Parris to realise there are some nasty bigots on either side.
There was a cringe-inducing piece on the BBC earlier "And now we go to Castle Point, an area with the highest % of white, English speaking voters in the UK - we're expecting a high Leave vote"
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
So what....because you've seen worse doesn't make it acceptable.
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
I pounded the streets in SW London (Merton 63% remain) - quite happy with that result.
All this talk of coming together and uniting after the referendum is all well and good but when one campaign was largely based on xenophobia, I sadly will not unite with people who fly the racism flag.
As a second generation immigrant, I do feel for the first time in my life a sense of uneasiness, a sense of worthlessness, s sense of fear. Am I really truly welcome in this country? Had lunch with other immigrant friends today and that feeling was largely shared. Sad, very sad.
My Italian wife feels really upset..she has worked for UK firms for 20 years, and equally said the she feels unwanted and worthless. Her words. Her workforce is diverse....people were in tears Friday.
Here's what I'd do with the Euros. Group winners and two best runners up go through to a second group stage. The winners of the two groups play in the final and they play until there is a winner - no penalties.
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
@DPJHodges: If Sturgeon pushed for a second independence referendum, what would PM Boris say. "Sorry, you can't take back control. You have to remain"?
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
The squeeling from the Europhiles is most enjoyable. I imagine very few actually campaigned for the UK to remain in the EU. Instead they sit behind their keyboards posting endless Twitter links or signing meaningless petitions.
I pounded the streets in SW London (Merton 63% remain) - quite happy with that result.
All this talk of coming together and uniting after the referendum is all well and good but when one campaign was largely based on xenophobia, I sadly will not unite with people who fly the racism flag.
As a second generation immigrant, I do feel for the first time in my life a sense of uneasiness, a sense of worthlessness, s sense of fear. Am I really truly welcome in this country? Had lunch with other immigrant friends today and that feeling was largely shared. Sad, very sad.
My Italian wife feels really upset..she has worked for UK firms for 20 years, and equally said the she feels unwanted and worthless. Her words. Her workforce is diverse....people were in tears Friday.
@faisalislam: Ah - "EU must make clear that it remains open to Scots & N. Irish" France's third party leader letter to Hollande: https://t.co/4xpRsPwcAL
Deep waters. These dilettantes should mind their own business.
After 24 hours? When it was 49% a few weeks back? Early days yet, mind.
This is peak Brexit panic time. 59%?
Hahahahaha - Scots are just way too sensible.
I don't know about that. One salient issue is that things up here are a haven of order and calm compared with Whitehall and Westminster. The longer chaos and uncertainty continue in London, the more people will remember that we were promised chaos and uncertainty if we voted yes in indyref. And we have to wait 3 months+ before we even know who is PM and negotiations even begin?!
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
Currently 3271 of the signatures on the petition for a second referendum are from the Vatican City. I know Pope Francis wanted us to Remain but..
Wait a moment, the Vatican doesn't even have that number of people living in it.
Something tells me that you may have found evidence of fraud, and that the petition might be a scam.
The server may be registered as being located in the Vatican City, but the people using it may not.
I don't think that's the case as the same data file shows the number of signatories by each UK constituency. It appears therefore to be based on data input by signatories.
I can't see why the Tory party will necessarily have a massive problem.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Someone commented earlier it is unprecedented for their to be no effective PM and no effective LotO at the same time
I wanted us to remain but look. The size of the financial sector is destroying London anyway. It would be a good thing in the long run for both London and the UK if the sector was downsized.
How is it destroying London?
You could say income inequality, localized high inflation, strain on transport, pressure on the environment.
Links for those assertions.
Oh come on, you know that London has high income inequality, much higher prices, big problems with traffic of all kinds, and lobbying to build on the green belt.
That's actually pretty gloomy reading from The Sun - the adverse effects of the falling pound and interest-rate hikes are its main concern. The next chancellor will have to be a Leaver for the simple reason that if a Remainer did it he'd be accused of acting out of pique because he lost. Crazy I know but that's where we've got to. I can't see a Remainer occupying a prominent role in British life ever again - too many would hate them and dismiss the integrity of their motives.
The Mail has a similar story
The comments are all "why didn't you tell us this before the vote?"
I wanted us to remain but look. The size of the financial sector is destroying London anyway. It would be a good thing in the long run for both London and the UK if the sector was downsized.
How is it destroying London?
You could say income inequality, localized high inflation, strain on transport, pressure on the environment.
Links for those assertions.
Oh come on, you know that London has high income inequality, much higher prices, big problems with traffic of all kinds, and lobbying to build on the green belt.
But how is that linked/caused by the financial sector.
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
It was the stupid, voting?
Does that make you feel superior? 42% of Brexiteers are apparently ABs. Lots of us post here.
Is that right? Interesting. I saw that graduates were circa 70% remain and school leavers at 16 were circa the same for leave... cut the cake how you like it doesn't matter now.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
AB isn't the same as graduates. Only about 15% of people over 65 are graduates but a lot more are ABs. Obviously the younger people are, the more of an overlap there is between the two.
After 24 hours? When it was 49% a few weeks back? Early days yet, mind.
This is peak Brexit panic time. 59%?
Hahahahaha - Scots are just way too sensible.
I don't know about that. One salient issue is that things up here are a haven of order and calm compared with Whitehall and Westminster. The longer chaos and uncertainty continue in London, the more people will remember that we were promised chaos and uncertainty if we voted yes in indyref. And we have to wait 3 months+ before we even know who is PM and negotiations even begin?!
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Except that Gibraltar were first to declare this time!
@DPJHodges: If Sturgeon pushed for a second independence referendum, what would PM Boris say. "Sorry, you can't take back control. You have to remain"?
You could easily turn that on its head.
Sturgeon thinks British Independence is racist, wrong and economic madness but, by contrast, Scottish Independence is liberating, right and enriching.
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Someone commented earlier it is unprecedented for their to be no effective PM and no effective LotO at the same time
Nicola and Sadiq have stepped into the breach
I have no strong opinions on Sadiq, he seems popular but I'm not close enough to it to have a proper view.
Nicola on the other hand, I think she is on cloud nine and will announce Indyref 2 on Monday. There's still time for another poll to come out tonight and there may be polls for Monday's papers out tomorrow.
Every hour that passes, Nicola's "statesman points" are racking up. Like the guy with £10 a minute on the Sunderland count. There is no government in London right now. None.
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Someone commented earlier it is unprecedented for their to be no effective PM and no effective LotO at the same time
Comments
(It's the way I tell 'em!)
It seems that to them, the worst possible outcome would be to see the country succeed and even maybe thrive in the future - because that might just mean that one day they might have to admit they were wrong.
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia
Let a committee made up of Leavers of all stripes do the small print of the negotiations, let the cabinet govern the country, and put a cheerful Boris on TV to defend all that.
It's a bit like a TV show.
Boris is the charismatic star of the show, but the show needs supporting actors, writers, directors and producers.
There are a lot of moving parts that make a show successful.
The ideal way for a political machine in work would look like the Larry Sanders show.
Rob Ford (of "Revolt of the Right") speaks for me too:
"Utter madness. Can't think of a better "out of touch" signal than London Labour MP calling for referendum result to be ignored."
I mean if we can cope with the IDS years, we can cope with this.
To paraphrase Barbara Castle, my party will need me to save it.
Old Etonian Boris managed to charm a normally Labour-leaning London to vote for him as mayor in both 2008 and 2012.
I don't think Old Etonian Dave could have pulled that off, do you?
Something tells me that you may have found evidence of fraud, and that the petition might be a scam.
Will?
So they aren't doing it.
Instead they are threatening to do it. I feel a sense of deja vu.
Obviously they have their own problems with anti-EU sentiment from the FN etc - but even if Marine Le Pen wins the presidential she won't win the legislative so she won't have the power to call a referendum - and I think we can assume no other mainstream governments are going make Cameron's mistake and have a referendum.
The general opinion (I have vox popped various frenchies I know here, anecdotal yes, but then that proved more accurate for the EURref!) is basically "the english have always wanted to do everything differently to the rest of europe. If the aren't happy they should leave. They are holding us back"
There's certainly no 'anger' that we rejected the EU. Young french people may worry that this is our Trump moment but generally speaking it seems fairly calm here.
Even my own girlfriend, putting aside the personal complications this presents for us, said today she was glad we had voted out.
Note the different tones form Merkel and Hollande. Hollande sees this as a chance to shove Britain out ASAP and re-frenchify the EU, Merkel is bricking it at the loss of a potential ally within the EU!
Then the WWC will turn on the Public schoolboys who thought it was all about Sovereignty rather than immigration.
It is like watching Christiano Ronaldo's face when he cocks it up again. Schadenfreude...
The Squealing of Brexiteers about the squealing of Europhiles is defeaning
If you can pull it off, good luck to you.
We were offered a referendum on the EU Constitution in the 2005 election.
All this talk of coming together and uniting after the referendum is all well and good but when one campaign was largely based on xenophobia, I sadly will not unite with people who fly the racism flag.
As a second generation immigrant, I do feel for the first time in my life a sense of uneasiness, a sense of worthlessness, s sense of fear. Am I really truly welcome in this country? Had lunch with other immigrant friends today and that feeling was largely shared. Sad, very sad.
in the 70s racism was quite common with NF marches and street fights
in the 80s there were race riots
in the 90s football fans regularly chanted racist slogans
in the 00s the BNP died as an electoral force
in the 10s you complain about a twat in a t shirt
And Plato was trying to convince us before that immigration had nothing to do with the vote.
Hahahahaha - Scots are just way too sensible.
New #IndyRef poll for the Sunday Post puts support for Scottish independence at 59%:
(pollster unknown)
Grow up and accept defeat gracefully. Noone likes a sore loser.
59% is less than I'd have expected at this time. Perhaps they won't leave the UK after all.
We had the Blackshirts in the 30s.
I've always admired the British response to racists demagogues, laugh at them.
We didn't need the European Union for the UK to form the anti-apartheid movement nor did we need it for the country to realise Enoch Powell was a racist.
I doubt the Boris and Gove show will have calmed to many fears on Friday.
Perhaps you should consider that rather than making snide comments about keyboard warriors.
Hungary should be entertaining tommorow though.
Anyway stupidity is not the sole preserve of the working class. Lots of ABs can and are exceptionally stupid.
why not get one yourself ?
Seems that the political establishment in scotland is once again misreading the public mood.
Sturgeon may be risking the Cameron fate if she calls for a referendum and then she loses.
I wonder if spurs fans were remain.. course we were!! Which premier league team fan based would be most leave??
No more Gradualist approach for the SNP. It's time to grasp the nettle.
Most Eurosceptics in the Tory party were driven by high-minded sovereignty issues rather than the baser stuff around foreigners.
When the party regroups around a new leader there's no need for it to pander to the Farage school of thought. The Tories have what they want in bringing powers back from Brussels, if there is a big band of support out there for even less (or zero) immigration then those supporters can support UKIP. There is no need for the Tories to feel obligated to the Kipper vote.
Immigration doesn't bother me. But the idea of uncontrolled immigration did. Not because it was immigration, it couldve been uncontrolled nudity. It was the point of principle that our government - the people we hire and fire - had no say in it.
Politics is damaged enough without politicians being in a position to make more excuses. I want our politicans fully accountable for things that happen here, and let's face it, immigration is clearly a big issue. The Brexit vote was a step towards that.
That means Scotland being prepared to accept that England and Wales may vote differently and vice versa.
If a constituent part of the Union can't accept that, then they should go.
Disappointing. I thought England would be higher.
Nicola and Sadiq have stepped into the breach
Nicola's a canny lass. She'll only go for it if she's 100% sure she'll win...
The comments are all "why didn't you tell us this before the vote?"
Comically tragic
Sturgeon thinks British Independence is racist, wrong and economic madness but, by contrast, Scottish Independence is liberating, right and enriching.
Nicola on the other hand, I think she is on cloud nine and will announce Indyref 2 on Monday. There's still time for another poll to come out tonight and there may be polls for Monday's papers out tomorrow.
65:35 is HUGE.
Seriously.