As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
the whole racism argument is tedious
It's not going to go away. I wish Brexit had never played the race card for advantage- they were the one's who unleashed the genie.
The whole immigration debate should be managed by cross party politics and not politicised. It is just too dangerous.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
the whole racism argument is tedious
It's not going to go away. I wish Brexit had never played the race card for advantage- they were the one's who unleashed the genie.
The whole immigration debate should be managed by cross party politics and not politicised. It is just too dangerous.
People have got wise to race baiting poverty pimp fat cats like you Tuscan Tyson. Time to learn a new trick.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Not for the first time and nor the last, our thoughts accord as one (though less lachrymose and profane as your esteemed self).
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Do you not think the Guardianish vote is the most secure part of the Labour vote right now, though? Admittedly I might be doing my own version of Mandelson's complacent "they have nowhere else to go" thing, but I have to admit it's my impression that a lot of metro Labour voters from Hackney and Islington would stick with the party no matter what.
By contrast, the "traditional" Labour voters of the Tynesides of the world are much more disconnected from the party, I think.
In my view if Labour win again it will be Guardianistas, combined with Blairites who defected to Cameron and ethnic minorities who do it for them ideally under a charismatic centrist. Corbyn and McDonnell have to lose a general election first though. The wwc who voted for Leave in 2016 and UKIP in 2015 are lost for good
Guardianistas + ethnic minorities are nowhere near an election-winning coalition, it's what Scottish Labour are left with. And the "Blairites who defected to Cameron" are mostly people who voted Leave on Thursday (the vast majority of General Election swing seats in the Midlands and South voted Leave).
If the white working-class are lost for good, then that is two-thirds of current Labour seats gone at a stroke. That is not an option that can even be contemplated.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
the whole racism argument is tedious
It's not going to go away. I wish Brexit had never played the race card for advantage- they were the one's who unleashed the genie.
The whole immigration debate should be managed by cross party politics and not politicised. It is just too dangerous.
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
However horrid the symptoms, one of the best things about this referendum is that it has revealed we have a huge problem with immigration.
That's far better than the problem continuing to fester unacknowledged. At least we can start thinking about how to deal with it before the really nasty parties start gaining ground.
I accept it wasn't your motivation or the motivation of many Leavers, but it was mentioned time and time again when people were being interviewed on TV. It was certainly the main motivation for sufficient numbers of voters to make the difference between Leave winning and losing.
Leave didn't go so heavily on the immigration issue for the last 2 weeks for nought. They were failing until they went all out for that demographic. It was definitely what got them over the line and I don't honestly see how you can argue otherwise.
"I didn't vote for the explicitly anti-immigration campaign because of immigration" is the Brexiteers "but I didn't inhale"...
I was planning on voting LEAVE months before the campaign even started
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
the whole racism argument is tedious
It's not going to go away. I wish Brexit had never played the race card for advantage- they were the one's who unleashed the genie.
The whole immigration debate should be managed by cross party politics and not politicised. It is just too dangerous.
People have got wise to race baiting poverty pimp fat cats like you Tuscan Tyson. Time to learn a new trick.
I have to say that is a very beautifully written attack Moniker. You really are a very talented writer.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
why do you think the NF were inspired to do it? because the leave victory was secretly about being nice to minorities?
Blah blah blah - the National Front used to beat up me and my hippy friends in the early 80s, in Newcastle. Skin-Raids were brutal - the local plod stationed a permanent copper with grumpy Alsatian dog at our hangout.
They're a teeny weeny minority of the population. Trying to link them to Brexit is laughable barrel scraping.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
Joy Division, Warsaw, Theo's a theme afoot there....
Insert obligatory Ian Curtis leaving the band hanging at the airport line.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
why do you think the NF were inspired to do it? because the leave victory was secretly about being nice to minorities?
Blah blah blah - the National Front used to beat up me and my hippy friends in the early 80s, in Newcastle. Skin-Raids were brutal - the local plod stationed a permanent copper with grumpy Alsatian dog at our hangout.
They're a teeny weeny minority of the population. Trying to link them to Brexit is laughable barrel scraping.
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
Well, that's going to be a lot of angry Leave voters when Boris fails to deliver any reduction in immigration (and quite possibly an increase)
There will be an upsurge before the door closes. After all, Leavers have said no one will be deported.
Yep, I would expect immigration from the EU to go through the roof in the next 6 months. It's going to be fun to watch.
I am not convinced. Even before the vote our European recruitment slowed, making it hard to fill vacancies people don't like to come where they feel unwanted.
1.I like the notion of a scottish PM being the one to say no to a 2nd scottish indy ref.
A vote for Labour would see Jeremy Corbyn in Nicola's pocket and we'd be ruled by Scots!
Umm, but Gove is Scottish himself.
Err, oops.
Gove is a proud Scot and Briton, Sturgeon is a confused Scottish Nationalist of English descent. I know who I'd trust.
Indeed but the Tories wouldn't be trying to appeal to North Britons. They will be trying to appeal to Middle England.
Gove is very middle England - I never noticed he was Scottish until he talked about it.
But he has a really strong posh provincial Scottish accent!
I know - I just don't really see this sort of thing as important. Very occasionally I notice an MPs regional accent. I'm a Geordie who speaks RP unless plastered - then I sound more like Jimmy Nail
I had NO idea you were a Geordie when I met you at a PB bash a few years back
My mum *insisted* I watched the Money Programme on BBC2 as a kid. She thought Moira Stewart was a marvellous elocution role model!
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
Well, that's going to be a lot of angry Leave voters when Boris fails to deliver any reduction in immigration (and quite possibly an increase)
There will be an upsurge before the door closes. After all, Leavers have said no one will be deported.
Yep, I would expect immigration from the EU to go through the roof in the next 6 months. It's going to be fun to watch.
I am not convinced. Even before the vote our European recruitment slowed, making it hard to fill vacancies people don't like to come where they feel unwanted.
There already tales being told of increased overt hostility to immigrants.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Not for the first time and nor the last, our thoughts accord as one (though less lachrymose and profane as your esteemed self).
Really? He may have been lukewarm (at best) about the EU but he is more pro-immigration than most of the Europhiles. At least they usually pay lip service to "understanding the concerns" even if never doing anything about it. He spent the campaign actively arguing in favour of unlimited immigration.
The Blairites and Corbyn are much of a muchness on immigration. However much Blairites might go on about "understanding concerns", they still wanted (and apparently still want) to stay in the EU, hence are in favour of high levels of immigration. That is all that matters to a lot of working-class Labour voters, and I don't think they would be any more willing to vote for a Labour manifesto committed to high immigration just because they threw in some preamble about "we know you're concerned about it, but it's going to carry on anyway".
Against that, atleast Corbyn has some things about him which are atleast vaguely attractive to working-class Labour voters: economic populism and a general sense that, by voting for him, they can "sock it to the Establishment". The Blairites on the other hand combine the least WWC-friendly aspect of Corbyn (immigration) with the least WWC-friendly aspects of the Remain Campaign (economic status quo telling poor people that they'll never rise above what they've currently got, and a generally Establishment manner and way of speaking).
Labour did worse with working class voters in May under Corbyn though
Corbyn has done little to see off the UKIP threat and HIS reluctant remain stance gained absolutely no traction with traditional Labour voters in this referendum at all.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
Joy Division, Warsaw, Theo's a theme afoot there....
Insert obligatory Ian Curtis leaving the band hanging at the airport line.
I wake up to "Ceremony" every morning. It is the only track on my running setlist that I have kept on, now for 20 years or so.
I saw Peter Hook last year live 3 times do his Joy Division revision. Closer and Warsaw are the albums of my yoof.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
I saw them at Glasto in 1987. Magnificent.
I am seeing them at Lattitude in a couple of weeks. It is a Guardianista festival.
@faisalislam: The task: unstitching decades of diplomacy, managing real questions about UK coherence, amid market turbulence, and leadership vacuum... 1/2
@faisalislam: It's House of Cards meets Game of Thrones, a spot of the Big Short and plenty of the Thick of It too. But this is very real. 2/2
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Yes I thought the Cameron thing would upset you more, When the dust settles I think a lot of people will ask how he got himself into the mess. I still thought remain would win and went to bed at 10.30 after farage had conceded\ unconceded.
When I got up and put the TV on I thought that Leave had put up a good tally it was only when the ticker changed I realised I was reading the result the wrong way round and Leave had won.
So having thought UK politics would get boring and it would all be about POTUS it seems we are about to get interesting again.
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
Well, that's going to be a lot of angry Leave voters when Boris fails to deliver any reduction in immigration (and quite possibly an increase)
There will be an upsurge before the door closes. After all, Leavers have said no one will be deported.
Yep, I would expect immigration from the EU to go through the roof in the next 6 months. It's going to be fun to watch.
I am not convinced. Even before the vote our European recruitment slowed, making it hard to fill vacancies people don't like to come where they feel unwanted.
There already tales being told of increased overt hostility to immigrants.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
I saw them at Glasto in 1987. Magnificent.
I am seeing them at Lattitude in a couple of weeks. It is a Guardianista festival.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Suck what up? Personally I'm delighted that the UK is heading toward continued unlimited EU migration and single market access without any influence on EU laws.
EDIT: I should be very clear that I don't feel that I have directed any bile, personally, at anyone here. I feel that "bile" is one of those irregular conjugations for what is called "PB robustness" on one's own side. Perhaps I have been critical but certainly not bileful toward Michael Ashcroft who lost me some money at GE2015 (I won more). I do feel the winners should man up and get less sensitive, but I wish them well in remaking the post-EU England and Wales.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
Given how useless polling is at the moment, I believe you.
I think there is one thing everyone can agree on about the referendum
"It was immigration, stupid"
You literally have people denying that right here on this thread.
Apparently 17 million people voted for a technocratic definition of sovereignty and will be A-OK with unlimited immigration and Britain in a union with other European Countries.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
I saw them at Glasto in 1987. Magnificent.
I am seeing them at Lattitude in a couple of weeks. It is a Guardianista festival.
I think Rob Smithson is a fan too.
Me!!! I'll be watching ..
I love New Order.
I've been trying for years trying to get in a reference to 'Bizarre Love Triangle' into a thread header.
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
I accept it wasn't your motivation or the motivation of many Leavers, but it was mentioned time and time again when people were being interviewed on TV. It was certainly the main motivation for sufficient numbers of voters to make the difference between Leave winning and losing.
Leave didn't go so heavily on the immigration issue for the last 2 weeks for nought. They were failing until they went all out for that demographic. It was definitely what got them over the line and I don't honestly see how you can argue otherwise.
"I didn't vote for the explicitly anti-immigration campaign because of immigration" is the Brexiteers "but I didn't inhale"...
I was planning on voting LEAVE months before the campaign even started
How do you feel about voting for a campaign that was based on xenophobia?
My Dad voted leave (by post) weeks ago and he's now pretty upset about it due to the nature of the campaign especially the actions of the known bigot, Nigel Farage.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
I saw them at Glasto in 1987. Magnificent.
I am seeing them at Lattitude in a couple of weeks. It is a Guardianista festival.
I think Rob Smithson is a fan too.
Latte-tude as it is affectionatly know as by the comedians who perform. Only the most Guardianista of Guardianistas can attend.
I think it's hard to see past May vs Boris. May is the obvious establishment candidate and her soft-pedalled referendum involvement was clearly intended to avoid ruling herself out. She's the Tory pre-refugee crisis Merkel - a safe paid of hands. and there just has to be a pro-Leave candidate, and can it really be denied to Boris?
As for Labour, there is clearly a big push from the centre-right of the party next week. But all the talk about reconnecting with the WWC, while valid as far as it goes, overlooks the need to STAY connected to the rest of the Labour vote, which is now predominantly left-wing Guardianish. If Corbyn is overthrown by a centrist, half the party will walk out and a huge swathe of the current 30% who support Labour will refuse to back the party. If Corbyn resigned voluntarily and McDonnell (or perhaps, as Tyson suggests, Clive Lewis) took over, I can see it having a chance, but otherwise it's just lemming stuff.
Do you not think the Guardianish vote is the most secure part of the Labour vote right now, though? Admittedly I might be doing my own version of Mandelson's complacent "they have nowhere else to go" thing, but I have to admit it's my impression that a lot of metro Labour voters from Hackney and Islington would stick with the party no matter what.
By contrast, the "traditional" Labour voters of the Tynesides of the world are much more disconnected from the party, I think.
In my view if Labour win again it will be Guardianistas, combined with Blairites who defected to Cameron and ethnic minorities who do it for them ideally under a charismatic centrist. Corbyn and McDonnell have to lose a general election first though. The wwc who voted for Leave in 2016 and UKIP in 2015 are lost for good
With your approach Labour would be scoring european socialist levels.
Is there any political party that is Guardianista-Blairite and has not collapsed or in the process of collapsing in the western world today? Their average voter take has shrunk to less than 20% through out europe.
It's ironic that for all the accusations Labour under Corbyn are the strongest centre-left party in the whole continent.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
the whole racism argument is tedious
It's not going to go away. I wish Brexit had never played the race card for advantage- they were the one's who unleashed the genie.
The whole immigration debate should be managed by cross party politics and not politicised. It is just too dangerous.
Bagging everyone who voted Leave as a racist, fascist ect, risks legitimizing actual racists and fascists.
I don't see anybody accusing all Leavers of being racist. Some very good arguments for Brexit were made on here. Doesn't mean the official (and unofficial) campaigns didn't pander to migration fears. They did.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
snip
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call people names. I accept the result. I dont like the EU. I don't like Farage. I do like Cameron. People don't admit to voting Leave because of immigration. Shocker. Sovereignty is really going to motivate the residents of sink estates. And change their lives. Truly.
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
I doubt most on here dispute that for the hardcore leavers (especially those on here), who have always been leavers, that this wasn't about immigration but was about Sovereignty.
Sovereignty was the issue for the core. But immigration was what made Leave the winner.
Immigration is a symptom of the problem. It was a massive weakness for Remain, of course we exploited it.
Just as Remain tried to scare the shit out of pensioners, the disabled, the middle classes over houses prices.
What I find weird is reading Left-wing Remainers ranting and raving over the risk of falls in the FTSE or the pound, or their properties. It's like reading the last page of Animal Farm.
Twitter has been hilarious - my timeline is stuffed with SJW speaking approvingly of big banks, Eton Tories and others.
It's so bizarro world. I can share values over democracy with Tony Benn or Barbara Castle - but never the position of megabanks like Goldmans who've taken the piss in a way Enron would approve of.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
Suck what up? Personally I'm delighted that the UK is heading toward continued unlimited EU migration and single market access without any influence on EU laws.
Comforting that someone thinks they know where we're headed. Would Labour support that kind of deal? It would suggest all Ukip's Christmases have come at once.
@faisalislam: The task: unstitching decades of diplomacy, managing real questions about UK coherence, amid market turbulence, and leadership vacuum... 1/2
@faisalislam: It's House of Cards meets Game of Thrones, a spot of the Big Short and plenty of the Thick of It too. But this is very real. 2/2
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Yes I thought the Cameron thing would upset you more, When the dust settles I think a lot of people will ask how he got himself into the mess. I still thought remain would win and went to bed at 10.30 after farage had conceded\ unconceded.
When I got up and put the TV on I thought that Leave had put up a good tally it was only when the ticker changed I realised I was reading the result the wrong way round and Leave had won.
So having thought UK politics would get boring and it would all be about POTUS it seems we are about to get interesting again.
I suspect Boris Johnson and not David Cameron will be called the modern day Lord North.
The other thing that did cheer me up yesterday, the plebs rose up on Thursday to launch a revolution that will see an Old Etonian Prime Minister replaced by another Old Etonian Prime Minister.
I accept it wasn't your motivation or the motivation of many Leavers, but it was mentioned time and time again when people were being interviewed on TV. It was certainly the main motivation for sufficient numbers of voters to make the difference between Leave winning and losing.
Leave didn't go so heavily on the immigration issue for the last 2 weeks for nought. They were failing until they went all out for that demographic. It was definitely what got them over the line and I don't honestly see how you can argue otherwise.
"I didn't vote for the explicitly anti-immigration campaign because of immigration" is the Brexiteers "but I didn't inhale"...
They used it to win but many now feel slightly embarrassed by it so are trying to rewrite the history of the campaign.
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
Baader-Meinhof effect. It's no more prevalent, it's just being made more prominent by people who have convinced themselves it is prevalent.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
the whole racism argument is tedious
It's not going to go away. I wish Brexit had never played the race card for advantage- they were the one's who unleashed the genie.
The whole immigration debate should be managed by cross party politics and not politicised. It is just too dangerous.
Bagging everyone who voted Leave as a racist, fascist ect, risks legitimizing actual racists and fascists.
I don't see anybody accusing all Leavers of being racist. Some very good arguments for Brexit were made on here. Doesn't mean the official (and unofficial) campaigns didn't pander to migration fears. They did.
and you didnt address those issues you should have.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they did in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
I saw them at Glasto in 1987. Magnificent.
I am seeing them at Lattitude in a couple of weeks. It is a Guardianista festival.
I think Rob Smithson is a fan too.
Me!!! I'll be watching ..
I love New Order.
I've been trying for years trying to get in a reference to 'Bizarre Love Triangle' into a thread header.
Until I saw that track at Brixton last year it wasn't in my top 10 for them... but it was Fecking fantastic.. can't wait for later.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday. I've lost, and felt small.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
the whole racism argument is tedious
It's not going to go away. I wish Brexit had never played the race card for advantage- they were the one's who unleashed the genie.
The whole immigration debate should be managed by cross party politics and not politicised. It is just too dangerous.
Bagging everyone who voted Leave as a racist, fascist ect, risks legitimizing actual racists and fascists.
I don't see anybody accusing all Leavers of being racist. Some very good arguments for Brexit were made on here. Doesn't mean the official (and unofficial) campaigns didn't pander to migration fears. They did.
I'll be honest. I felt sorry for Remainers. I was surprised to win on Thursday morning. I posted what I hope were sympathetic posts here, on Friday.
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost.
Big G from Wales has got fed up with it all as well, I think...
If you have noticed, my vitriol is slightly on the decline. Two days anger for something like Brexit isn't that bad. I even sent a complimentary response to Moniker who writes particularly well. Plato still gets a bit under my skin...but heh, I'm not Jesus.
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
Well, that's going to be a lot of angry Leave voters when Boris fails to deliver any reduction in immigration (and quite possibly an increase)
There will be an upsurge before the door closes. After all, Leavers have said no one will be deported.
Yep, I would expect immigration from the EU to go through the roof in the next 6 months. It's going to be fun to watch.
Surely not?! We're international pariahs. Who would want to come to such a horrible country?
Visit Britain should headhunt Mr Meeks - that'd put them off.
what nonsense. The UK is one of the most open least racist societies on the planet, The recent racist mantra is simply another import from the States.
In the past 24 hours, somebody has posted a picture on here of a man wearing a "fit in or fuck off" t-shirt, there was another one on the news, and then there was the NF repatriation photo in Newcastle. I cannot testfy to the"least racist society" statistic (what is the metric and who measured it), but in terms of public visibility, it's certainly gone up
a t-shirt ?
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Yes I thought the Cameron thing would upset you more, When the dust settles I think a lot of people will ask how he got himself into the mess. I still thought remain would win and went to bed at 10.30 after farage had conceded\ unconceded.
When I got up and put the TV on I thought that Leave had put up a good tally it was only when the ticker changed I realised I was reading the result the wrong way round and Leave had won.
So having thought UK politics would get boring and it would all be about POTUS it seems we are about to get interesting again.
I suspect Boris Johnson and not David Cameron will be called the modern day Lord North.
The other thing that did cheer me up yesterday, the plebs rose up on Thursday to launch a revolution that will see an Old Etonian Prime Minister replaced by another Old Etonian Prime Minister.
Initially I felt sorry he was resigning. Then I remembered the way he pretended to be eurosceptic and wasn't, the way he handled the Remain campaign, and how he thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him is a 'little Englander'. And I thought... no, you brought this upon yourself.
In his resignation he said how much he loved this country. Well, newsflash sunshine, Leavers love this country too.
We're still in Europe. We still love our neighbours. We just don't think the EU is the best way forward.
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. So, let's do it, even if some PBers get upset that their workers become less biddable when there are fewer Eastern Europeans snapping at their heels.
Well, that's going to be a lot of angry Leave voters when Boris fails to deliver any reduction in immigration (and quite possibly an increase)
There will be an upsurge before the door closes. After all, Leavers have said no one will be deported.
Yep, I would expect immigration from the EU to go through the roof in the next 6 months. It's going to be fun to watch.
Surely not?! We're international pariahs. Who would want to come to such a horrible country?
Visit Britain should headhunt Mr Meeks - that'd put them off.
One of the more interesting discussions yesterday and today at work.
An independent Scotland becomes the successor state of the UK, thus retains membership of the EU.
All the financial services firms and banks move to Scotland, thus making up and outdoing the shortfall in oil revenues.
I really don't want to have to make regular trips to France.
Reuters were reporting sauces suggesting that firms were already eyeing up Edinburgh.
Already got a massive outsized financial sector so plenty of talent and infrastructure. And as I am a home owner the huge house price rise will be in my favour.
@IsabelOakeshott: In the last hour I've spoken to 2 Tory MPs both of whom told me Osborne has someone ringing round canvassing support for a leadership bid
It's a dastardly plan. They want a remainer to win but know that it will cause a problem. So what they need is to get two remainers on the ballot, one of whom is Osborne. The membership will forget about the need to have a leaver on the ballot and happily give the other candidate a landslide.
Seriously, the idea is ridiculous. Part of the reason Cameron said he stood down was because it would be entirely inappropriate for him, somebody at the heart of the Remain campaign, to be the one negotiating Brexit. Osborne is possibly the only person more unsuitable on those grounds.
Yeah, at least most people still like and respect Cameron and feel kind of bad that he's had to fall on his sword... Osborne is toxic with everybody... Well not number one fan Scott_P obviously but you know what I mean...
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Mark my words, in less than 18 months, you'll see polls showing the country wants Dave and George back as PM and Chancellor.
TSE- I was going to ask- did you catch the Muse set at Glasto? They were bloody good. Was it the same set they depid in Manchester when you went to see them?
I have it to watch later.
I was working until 11.30pm on Friday, which meant I had only 2 hours sleep in 42 hours.
I'm looking forward to New Order tonight at 11.30 (Italian time). There was another poster who was a New Order fan...forget who?
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
I saw them at Glasto in 1987. Magnificent.
I am seeing them at Lattitude in a couple of weeks. It is a Guardianista festival.
I think Rob Smithson is a fan too.
Me!!! I'll be watching ..
I love New Order.
I've been trying for years trying to get in a reference to 'Bizarre Love Triangle' into a thread header.
Until I saw that track at Brixton last year it wasn't in my top 10 for them... but it was Fecking fantastic.. can't wait for later.
New Order are my favourite Mancunian band.
World (Price of Love) is my fave New Order song.
The video is magnificent, only consisting of three continuous camera shots:
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
Not really, no.
One only has to read Giles Coren, Alex Massie or Matthew Parris to realise there are some nasty bigots on either side.
There was a cringe-inducing piece on the BBC earlier "And now we go to Castle Point, an area with the highest % of white, English speaking voters in the UK - we're expecting a high Leave vote"
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. ...
Well said. If it's the will of people - it's the will of the people. I don't care where someone comes from provided they substantially add to our national wealth and behave like Britons. Just like Romans in Rome.
On this topic... I don't give a stuff where someone's from either.
But I always found it curious that so many prominent Remainers were so fond of having "no upper limit" on migration from Europe, but not from the rest of the world.
If I were trolling I'd mention something about said European immigrants being predominantly white/predominantly religiously or culturally Christian, and what is wrong with all those brown and black people elsewhere in the world? Shouldn't they have the automatic right to come here with "no upper limit" too?
I understand that this is reciprocal for Brits having the right to live and work in Europe. But if said reciprocal rights, without upper limit, are such a fantastic thing, why have we not gone around negotiating more "reciprocal unlimited migration rights" deals with other countries, in the same manner we have with the EU? Lots of Brits move to live/work in the US, Australia, NZ, Canada, South Africa, Thailand and so on.
Why is it so great and important that millions (literally) of Europeans can come and live here, but we don't extend the same rights to Thais or Filipinos or Saffers or Aussies or Brazilians? Since migration and diversity is such a fantastic thing, as we are consistently told, even of low-skilled non-English speakers, aren't we missing out on lots of those benefits by forcing migrants from other countries to jump through such appalling hoops? Why isn't everybody better off by declaring that the right to live, work and receive benefits in the UK is a basic human right that should be open to everyone on the planet, regardless of whether they hold an EU passport?
I'm asking this as a serious question despite my tone. I'm aware that there is a serious political movement for "No Borders" that believes migration is a basic human right, and that it has proponents among Greens, Labour and Lib Dems, but its influence - at least outside the Greens - is minuscule. Yet look at the pronouncements of SNP and Labour progressives post-Brexit and they have consistently emphasised "London/Scotland is open and diverse", "all European migrants are still welcome here" ... so somehow unlimited migration of EU passport holders has become an article of faith amongst a section of the political elite.Yet unlimited migration without discrimination on grounds of nationality has essentially zero senior political support. What's up with that?
One of the more interesting discussions yesterday and today at work.
An independent Scotland becomes the successor state of the UK, thus retains membership of the EU.
All the financial services firms and banks move to Scotland, thus making up and outdoing the shortfall in oil revenues.
I really don't want to have to make regular trips to France.
Reuters were reporting sauces suggesting that firms were already eyeing up Edinburgh.
Already got a massive outsized financial sector so plenty of talent and infrastructure. And as I am a home owner the huge house price rise will be in my favour.
As was pointed out in the last thread, that's the NF who have been peddling their particular viewpoint for years now. Trying to tie the whole Leave campaign and their 17 million voters to those views didn't work when Cameron tried it and certainly won't work now.
This is turning into a tedious argument everywhere I look, can we all agree with the following
Not everyone who voted Leave is a nasty racist but all the nasty racists are voted Leave.
Not really, no.
One only has to read Giles Coren, Alex Massie or Matthew Parris to realise there are some nasty bigots on either side.
There was a cringe-inducing piece on the BBC earlier "And now we go to Castle Point, an area with the highest % of white, English speaking voters in the UK - we're expecting a high Leave vote"
The inference was very clear. And very insulting.
The inference was clear and, by the numbers, correct. It is not insulting to be white, to speak English, or to be called a Leave voter.
@BBCKimGhattas: The Sun, which was pro-Brexit, only now explains to its readers how their wallets will be hit by leaving the EU. https://t.co/TQ8stsqvwj
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Yes I thought the Cameron thing would upset you more, When the dust settles I think a lot of people will ask how he got himself into the mess. I still thought remain would win and went to bed at 10.30 after farage had conceded\ unconceded.
When I got up and put the TV on I thought that Leave had put up a good tally it was only when the ticker changed I realised I was reading the result the wrong way round and Leave had won.
So having thought UK politics would get boring and it would all be about POTUS it seems we are about to get interesting again.
I suspect Boris Johnson and not David Cameron will be called the modern day Lord North.
The other thing that did cheer me up yesterday, the plebs rose up on Thursday to launch a revolution that will see an Old Etonian Prime Minister replaced by another Old Etonian Prime Minister.
plus ca change
I was hoping you chaps could kill off both Boris and Osborne and make yourselves voatble again.
I also felt sorry for the losers. I was in a St Helens pub on Thursday night with a quiz team, one or two Remainers included, and just before midnight, I gave them my congratulations. We'd watched the betting markets.
They took them and refused to gloat. When I got home and saw the Sunderland result, I stayed up to watch Boston take first place in the Leavers' competition and see St Helens go for Leave too.
The Remainers will be gutted. As John Cleese said, it's not the disappointment, it's the hope that kills you.
They'll be alright with it, but there will always be a few loons who can't deal with disappointment. Usually the young and immature.
@KathViner: 'The real division in Britain is between Johnson, Gove and Farage and the voters they defrauded,' writes Nick Cohen https://t.co/uOBoHOFHe9
snip
It's far, far simpler. They lost because immigration upsets old people. And because people with nothing and nothing to lose in the North and Midlands got off theiir arses to vote.
the post match analysis should sovereignty was the biggest motivational factor for Leave voters not immigration.
maybe if youd spent more time understanding that than name calling people you didnt relate with you'd have won.
I didn't call
No need to be rude.
I'll stop being rude if you stop being daft.
Immigration wasnt the prime motivation for most Leavers. For me it was a secondary issue. The first one was holding our politicians to account.
I doubt most on here dispute that for the hardcore leavers (especially those on here), who have always been leavers, that this wasn't about immigration but was about Sovereignty. But it is entirely disingenuous of Leavers to refuse to even countenance the idea that immigration was a major factor in this vote and a prime motivation for large numbers of people. The Leave campaign knew that themselves, that's why they campaigned relentlessly on it.
Sovereignty was the issue for the core. But immigration was what made Leave the winner.
I have no doubt immigration was the prime factor for a sizeable slice of leavers 17% IIRC put it as their number one issue. However this droning on that it was the only issue for Leavers is wrong. It is precisely because remainers wanted to believe their own propaganda that they didnt understand the other issues on which they should have made their pitch.
"Take back control" was a genius core message for Leave - it summed up a load of issues, and allowed whatever bothered a voter most to latch onto it.
So you are saying take back control can, probably does, mean cut immigration, given the known priorities of UK voters.
A great many voters are bothered by it because it's unplanned in terms of public services and housing - it's also replacing their own culture and values. I fail to see the problem with accepting this is a fact.
You are pathetically attempting to portray all those who are concerned or disadvantaged by it as bigots and racists.
Who gives a toss if most of the 17m wanted to reduce immigration? There's nothing unreasonable about such a desire. In fact, it's clear that most of our people do wish to reduce immigration. ...
Well said. If it's the will of people - it's the will of the people. I don't care where someone comes from provided they substantially add to our national wealth and behave like Britons. Just like Romans in Rome.
... unlimited migration without discrimination on grounds of nationality has essentially zero senior political support. What's up with that?
Because voters won't even stand immigration by, as you say, white Christians, whose grandparents fought on their side in WWII.
Oi, Scott isn't Osborne's number one fan, well not whilst I'm about.
Are you mourning the "loss" of Justine this evening?
Nope.
How are you bearing up otherwise ?
Politcally a tough 48 hrs for you.
Been a tough 48 hrs politically and professionally.
Oddly, I'm more upset at Dave going than the result of the referendum.
I had known since just before 8am that Cameron was going, and when Cameron's voice quivered on Friday morning I just lost it internally, I swore lots too, which really isn't me.
What really cheered me up was the Vote Leave press conference, the looks on the faces of Boris and Gove just spoke 'Oh shit, we only did this to make a point, what the feck are we going to do now we've won, WE WEREN'T MEANT TO WIN'
Someone said Gove had the look of a bloke who found out he had taken drugs and killed his best mate during the trip
I'm voting Boris for leader, he's got Brexit, he's going to have to deliver on it, which is going to be fun.
I suspect Cameron is going to be the heir to Blair in the sense he's going to be chuckling on the inside on the performance of his successor.
The worst thing about the last 48 hours is the smugness of the French, they might have a reason to be smug about us for the first time since The Battle of Bouvines.
Snap..
For me it's also revealed to my surprise that I cared more about Europe than I realised. The last 48 hours have been whether I'm so headbanging on the antisceptic side that I'd countenance the lib dems.. not I think but orange bookers would possibly be.
The developing war between the hannan/carswell vision and farage extremists is looking messy. An unholy team which now fights over the victory spoils..
Comments
https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/746736752413409280
Bagging everyone who voted Leave as a racist, fascist ect, risks legitimizing actual racists and fascists.
I love Glasto....on the Iplayer.
"It was immigration, stupid"
"Oh you've come for an argument? This is the room for an agreement."
If the white working-class are lost for good, then that is two-thirds of current Labour seats gone at a stroke. That is not an option that can even be contemplated.
That's far better than the problem continuing to fester unacknowledged. At least we can start thinking about how to deal with it before the really nasty parties start gaining ground.
The Vienna Convention applies between individual countries and not political unions.
I need to do some research on this.
They're a teeny weeny minority of the population. Trying to link them to Brexit is laughable barrel scraping.
Insert obligatory Ian Curtis leaving the band hanging at the airport line.
Osborne: Hi this is George, is that John?
John: Yes. George who?
Osborne: George Osborne the Chancellor.
John: Yes?
Osborne: Well I was just phoning because I'm thinking of launching a leadership...
John: No you can't count on my support. Now stop wasting my time and **** off.
[Click]
John: Sorry George, it's Liz Truss for me!
The phone was answered and I confirmed it was David on the phone.
I placed the order, then he asked who I was.
I had been speaking to the wrong David for the entire call.
The good news is he gave me a better price than David would have done.
What HAVE we done!
Signed. Convinced Remainer
But, really, having read the endless bile and venom from Scott P, EPG, Stark Dawning, Olly T, Tyson, Wiiliam Glenn, Matt, et al, I'll now say, I'm glad you lost. You deserved to lose.
Suck it up, bitches.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/labour-struggling-attract-working-class-voters-analysis-fabian-society
Corbyn has done little to see off the UKIP threat and HIS reluctant remain stance gained absolutely no traction with traditional Labour voters in this referendum at all.
I saw Peter Hook last year live 3 times do his Joy Division revision. Closer and Warsaw are the albums of my yoof.
I have been posting about the consequences of your actions
I am seeing them at Lattitude in a couple of weeks. It is a Guardianista festival.
I think Rob Smithson is a fan too.
@faisalislam: It's House of Cards meets Game of Thrones, a spot of the Big Short and plenty of the Thick of It too. But this is very real. 2/2
Anyone think Boris is the man for job? Anyone?
When I got up and put the TV on I thought that Leave had put up a good tally it was only when the ticker changed I realised I was reading the result the wrong way round and Leave had won.
So having thought UK politics would get boring and it would all be about POTUS it seems we are about to get interesting again.
EDIT: I should be very clear that I don't feel that I have directed any bile, personally, at anyone here. I feel that "bile" is one of those irregular conjugations for what is called "PB robustness" on one's own side. Perhaps I have been critical but certainly not bileful toward Michael Ashcroft who lost me some money at GE2015 (I won more). I do feel the winners should man up and get less sensitive, but I wish them well in remaking the post-EU England and Wales.
Apparently 17 million people voted for a technocratic definition of sovereignty and will be A-OK with unlimited immigration and Britain in a union with other European Countries.
I've been trying for years trying to get in a reference to 'Bizarre Love Triangle' into a thread header.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-result-latest-david-lammy-mp-eu-referendum-result-parliament-twitter-statement-stop-this-a7102931.html
My Dad voted leave (by post) weeks ago and he's now pretty upset about it due to the nature of the campaign especially the actions of the known bigot, Nigel Farage.
Is there any political party that is Guardianista-Blairite and has not collapsed or in the process of collapsing in the western world today?
Their average voter take has shrunk to less than 20% through out europe.
It's ironic that for all the accusations Labour under Corbyn are the strongest centre-left party in the whole continent.
It's so bizarro world. I can share values over democracy with Tony Benn or Barbara Castle - but never the position of megabanks like Goldmans who've taken the piss in a way Enron would approve of.
The shit hasn't even hit the fan yet. The Leave campaign leaders will soon be taking chunks out of each other when nothing changes.
The other thing that did cheer me up yesterday, the plebs rose up on Thursday to launch a revolution that will see an Old Etonian Prime Minister replaced by another Old Etonian Prime Minister.
@MarkFoxNews: HSBC will move up to 1,000 staff from London to Paris if Britain leaves the Single Market. #Brexit
@thetimes: Banks prepare to move thousands of jobs out of UK after Brexit vote https://t.co/6xdT46yeFI https://t.co/4SDMCtbZqr
I know of people who have been shot for being the wrong religion, had to leave their homes or had to endure some of the most vile abuse to their face .
maybe if you understood the concept you bandy about with such equanimity youd use it correctly.
On Cameron.
Initially I felt sorry he was resigning. Then I remembered the way he pretended to be eurosceptic and wasn't, the way he handled the Remain campaign, and how he thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him is a 'little Englander'. And I thought... no, you brought this upon yourself.
In his resignation he said how much he loved this country. Well, newsflash sunshine, Leavers love this country too.
We're still in Europe. We still love our neighbours. We just don't think the EU is the best way forward.
An independent Scotland becomes the successor state of the UK, thus retains membership of the EU.
All the financial services firms and banks move to Scotland, thus making up and outdoing the shortfall in oil revenues.
I really don't want to have to make regular trips to France.
Already got a massive outsized financial sector so plenty of talent and infrastructure. And as I am a home owner the huge house price rise will be in my favour.
World (Price of Love) is my fave New Order song.
The video is magnificent, only consisting of three continuous camera shots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzs47qy2Pk
The inference was very clear. And very insulting.
But I always found it curious that so many prominent Remainers were so fond of having "no upper limit" on migration from Europe, but not from the rest of the world.
If I were trolling I'd mention something about said European immigrants being predominantly white/predominantly religiously or culturally Christian, and what is wrong with all those brown and black people elsewhere in the world? Shouldn't they have the automatic right to come here with "no upper limit" too?
I understand that this is reciprocal for Brits having the right to live and work in Europe. But if said reciprocal rights, without upper limit, are such a fantastic thing, why have we not gone around negotiating more "reciprocal unlimited migration rights" deals with other countries, in the same manner we have with the EU? Lots of Brits move to live/work in the US, Australia, NZ, Canada, South Africa, Thailand and so on.
Why is it so great and important that millions (literally) of Europeans can come and live here, but we don't extend the same rights to Thais or Filipinos or Saffers or Aussies or Brazilians? Since migration and diversity is such a fantastic thing, as we are consistently told, even of low-skilled non-English speakers, aren't we missing out on lots of those benefits by forcing migrants from other countries to jump through such appalling hoops? Why isn't everybody better off by declaring that the right to live, work and receive benefits in the UK is a basic human right that should be open to everyone on the planet, regardless of whether they hold an EU passport?
I'm asking this as a serious question despite my tone. I'm aware that there is a serious political movement for "No Borders" that believes migration is a basic human right, and that it has proponents among Greens, Labour and Lib Dems, but its influence - at least outside the Greens - is minuscule. Yet look at the pronouncements of SNP and Labour progressives post-Brexit and they have consistently emphasised "London/Scotland is open and diverse", "all European migrants are still welcome here" ... so somehow unlimited migration of EU passport holders has become an article of faith amongst a section of the political elite.Yet unlimited migration without discrimination on grounds of nationality has essentially zero senior political support. What's up with that?
I was hoping you chaps could kill off both Boris and Osborne and make yourselves voatble again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXzs47qy2Pk
Thanks for that link.
I wake up to "Ceremony" as my alarm wake up. It is the most perfect track.
I also felt sorry for the losers. I was in a St Helens pub on Thursday night with a quiz team, one or two Remainers included, and just before midnight, I gave them my congratulations. We'd watched the betting markets.
They took them and refused to gloat. When I got home and saw the Sunderland result, I stayed up to watch Boston take first place in the Leavers' competition and see St Helens go for Leave too.
The Remainers will be gutted. As John Cleese said, it's not the disappointment, it's the hope that kills you.
They'll be alright with it, but there will always be a few loons who can't deal with disappointment. Usually the young and immature.
A few daft t-shirts do not a racist nation make.
You are pathetically attempting to portray all those who are concerned or disadvantaged by it as bigots and racists.
Do carry on not listening.
For me it's also revealed to my surprise that I cared more about Europe than I realised. The last 48 hours have been whether I'm so headbanging on the antisceptic side that I'd countenance the lib dems.. not I think but orange bookers would possibly be.
The developing war between the hannan/carswell vision and farage extremists is looking messy. An unholy team which now fights over the victory spoils..