If Boris DOESN'T get PM, I wonder what sort of mood he will be in and how will he behave?!
Relief I would imagine.
He torched the building for the sake of his career, but he didn't really want a career trying to sweep up the ashes
It really would be interesting to know whether Boris made his decision on this referendum really thinking that Leave might win. I do wonder if his comment on an illegal immigrant amnesty near the end was a desperate attempt to throw away victory, and was let down by it almost completely ignored.
He actually voted at 9.30pm - must be almost unprecedented for a campaign leader to vote so late. Wonder if psychologist could make anything of that. He had allegedly conceded defeat before he had even voted himself!
Hadn't he been caught up in the train fiasco that his successor has created?
Boris was seen on the tube either just before or after he voted. He (allegedly) told some guy he thought leave had lost. Of course the guy then takes a photo of a dishevelled Boris and posts the comment up on Twitter.
If he does make PM he is going to have to change....
Point 1: Leave thought they had lost (UKIP/ Farage/ Johnson all stated/ tweeted that) because the turnout appeared to be very high and they thought that the young had energised themselves to vote. In fact No 10 thought the same thing (There is an article in the Mail about how it panned out). It was only when Newcastle and Sunderland reported (or they were getting reports on how it was going) that they actually had evidence that it was in fact a class rather than age turnout boost. (not being demeaning)
Point 2: Yes he is - markedly and rapidly. Cameron's hiatus on going has at least given him 3 months to present a more sober and responsible Johnson to the party, the press and the people.
Interesting to see how keen Europe is to get this over and done with now.
What legal routes to a quick process do they have, beyond offering favourable terms?
I think the current approach is to reduce European Council meetings to a purely nominal one-day meeting, then meet as the EC27 (ie not including the UK) in a separate room the next day. This is the arrangement for next week and presumably thereafter. In that sense we have *already* left the EU.
I assume when they've worked out what the deal is, they will let the UK know.
What legal protections are offered to EU members being excluded like this, or does the whole thing rely purely on good will and we have no protection from a shakedown by our 'partners' like this while still full members?
The 27 member caucus in a feature of Article 50. It's to prevent the departing member being on both sides of the negotiation at the same time. However we haven't invoked Article 59. We've made up a 3 month delay to suit ourselves. So they've made up a caucus.
Re Scotland.there are surely two steps to Scotland joining the EU.First it has to hold another independence referendum.Given it is still part of the UK who gives it permission to do this..Second Ot may not win the independence referendum after all with the price of oil the sums will look a lot less favourable for independence. next the EU. Presume that Scotland cannot apply to the EU unless it is an independent country? Next getting into the EU may not be easy particularly if the finances are poor. Frankly it looks as if Nichola has along and bumpy road ahead.
What will UKIP do next? Take seats of Labour. The referendum was won by the "ex" Labour heartlands. They just sussed Labour for what they actually are. BIG STATE corporatists, shackled by their own peculiar brand of leftist middle class cultural marxism.
As regards the nationalism question across in Northern Ireland, this place isn't going to vote to part ways with the UK.
It will be a waste of money to even bother organising a poll and everyone here knows it.
Remarkably little sense of whats going on with Labour at the moment. Another story of rebellion and resignations but so far the attempts by MPs to get rid of Corbyn has been one of the worst political insurgencies seen in a while.
But if, Scotland splits from England, what does Northern Ireland want to be in a union with? There is no UK.
Let me assure you for most Ulster protestants, the Union means with Scotland and under the crown. They don't much care for England at all.
A Scottish / Ulster Federation with the Queen as head of state within the EU is my prediction.
The Irish don't want them, the English don't want them, I'm pretty damn sure Scotland doesn't want them either.
Now we've voted Leave - what EU related institutions do we still need to consider? ECHR? Is that just a case of repealing/amending our Human Rights Act?
When will the ECJ stop having a practical role? I presume many cases are trundling through the system.
Sigh.... repealing the ECHR has already been looked at after the election and was a non starter.
ECJ depends on the deal with the EU. If it's EEA then it will still be in the picture.
That's not true, we've been through this many times on here. EEA nations use the EFTA court and they only rule on trade matters. For everything else the supreme court is the highest arbiter in the land.
The EFTA court is bound by ECJ case law, which applies to all issues affecting the single market.
No, only for single market trade. Everything else comes back to us, and the EFTA court is not bound by ECJ rulings, at least in theory, in practice ECJ rulings on single market issues are normally not an issue, it is their overreach into common law and hum rights law that is worrying and something we no longer need to be concerned with.
Not so. We will be, de facto, part of the single market, so ECJ rulings would de facto apply here too. If we were an EEA member, for example, we would be obliged to apply EU trademark law and ECJ rulings on it in the UK. The same would apply to myriad other areas of law. The ECJ would have less jurisdiction, that is true, but it would still write plenty of our laws.
Only in instances where we trade with the single market would that be applicable. British companies who do business in the US apply for trademarks in the US under US law, I don't see the government rushing to implement US trademark law in the UK. British companies who do business in the EU will have to abide by EU law for the business they conduct there, it's only natural. Those who don't, wouldn't have to.
The same laws will apply to everyone. We would be a part of the single market and would adhere to the EU laws that govern it. The ECJ is the ultimate arbiter of those laws. We would have to apply what it ruled.
So if the UK is off, then presumably there's no TTIP, so no EU\USA deal and we're the only one in the queue ?
Well we have to wait and see first, I expect the Germans will have some big song and dance about it and there will be a lot of talk, but without us it is going to face death by a thousand cuts as every man and his dog dismantles pieces of it with French support.
The bile spewing from remainers is incredible. Watched the bbc 24 news at 10am and it was a festival of shroud waving.
They cant get tbeir way so like spoilt children they *want* armaggedon.
Their hate of their fellow countrymen is no longer concealed.
The media can't get over being told that half the country doesn't care what they think. It's incredibly obvious. They're all huffy, looking for bad news and acting as if we'd just insulted their mother.
I saw some of Sky last night, and again this morning - it's all rather sad. I gather C4 News is experiencing a collective nervous breakdown.
I'm hearing you need free movement of people to have free trade with the EU, so does that mean there isn't any free trade with the US, Japan, India, Canada or Australia?
If so might this explain why the EU has done so badly relatively in the last 20 years?
Well quite. It is only a no-go because Merkel says so.
Given the circumstances I'm being allowed some time on site, albeit dictated, I could get used to this Miss Moneypenny.
1. Congratulations to LEAVE. The people have spoken. The decision is clear.
2. Many apologies I got the result wrong. My ARSE was trending toward LEAVE but certainly wouldn't have moved to 52/48 to LEAVE, more likely the direct opposite. Essentially I underestimated turnout especially with WWC.
3. I'm very sorry to see Cameron go. Given the hand he was dealt in 2010 he proved to be an excellent Coalition PM. He gave us the referendum, rolled the dice for REMAIN and lost.
4. Next PM. It's May for me, anyone but Boris.
5. Corbyn should go too. A total tool. About as effective as a leader and potential PM as a fart in a hurricane.
6.Lastly and this will shock many but Scotland should now opt for independence. There I said it. The will of the Scottish people on the EU, a matter of the most crucial significance for the future, was clear. Hopefully it will be an amicable uncoupling. I would vote for YES in SINDY2, if still around.
SINDY2 should take place within 18 months and a YES vote take effect on the date of BREXIT two years after Article 50 is enabled or before 2020 whichever is sooner.
Fascinating. Surely it depends on #1 Nicola being able to secure continuity of the current UK opt outs #2 the UK leaving the EEA altogether. In those circumstances even someone like me who thinks of themselves as British first would tell you to go for it. But those are two enormous ifs to both come off.
Hello YS.
To us anoraks those issues appear important but if we've learnt one thing from the BREXIT vote it is that mood music can trump a close analysis of detailed issues.
The dismay among many Scots about BREXIT is palpable being fairly reported in huge swathes of the Scottish media and among my circle of Unionists friends there is unease and a sense that not only that Scotland is another country within the UK but should look again at the option of independence.
Sturgeon indicates BREXIT is a gamechanger. She is correct.
Thanks to others who commented on my post and the good wishes.
Yep, I support the Union - but you really can't argue against any of that.
Scotland might be a bit less Pro change-of-masters when they realise that no only would they lose rUK funding but they would be asked to be a net contributor to the EU. King Log and King Stork anyone?
The problem the two nats ( NI and SNP ) still havent faced up to is does their target Union actually want them ?
Most people in the Republic view NI as a socially divided basket case they're be out of their minds to take on. I can't see Scotland getting as warm a welcome as they might think. They are tinged with the british brush and currently the EU has more than enough on its plate than taking on another bunch of ingrates.
Alan, never , the EU will show two fingers to England and wave us through. They need an American entry point so we can be 51st state and EU as well, Utopia.
I have a perfect left candidate that I think could reach into Labour heartlands.
He is major supporter of Corbyn, so wouldn't move against Jeremy. But he has a great back story- fought in Afghanistan and Sandhurst trained. He also has a messianic following in Norwich. He is presentable, good looking and communicates easily.
5. Corbyn should go too. A total tool. About as effective as a leader and potential PM as a fart in a hurricane.
6.Lastly and this will shock many but Scotland should now opt for independence. There I said it. The will of the Scottish people on the EU, a matter of the most crucial significance for the future, was clear. Hopefully it will be an amicable uncoupling. I would vote for YES in SINDY2, if still around.
SINDY2 should take place within 18 months and a YES vote take effect on the date of BREXIT two years after Article 50 is enabled or before 2020 whichever is sooner.
Gove will design it. Boris will sell it. During the course of this campaign Boris's shortcomings doubtless became obvious even to him. And he isn;t stupid enough to overplay his hand now.
After all, he beat David Cameron, who had every possible advantage on his side, and used them ruthlessly.
I can't help feeling that Cameron's clear personal dislike of Boris got totally out of hand - it coloured far too much of the Remain campaign.
Err, EU immigrants are mostly (all?) white. Not sure what relevance this has.
The conflation of immigration with race I suppose.
The racism dog whistles from Remain about Farage were when it became clear they were losing and their 'ecomomy, stupid' approach was failing. It was a sign they were getting desperate and needed Labour ethnic minority voters to come to their rescue.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Ruth Davidson made the point the the number of scots who voted against scottish independence was larger than the number of scots who voted for Remain.
'Scotland will have to set up a domestic central bank and adopt the Euro, that seems beyond question: but this is hardly much of a requirement given the position we have now reached. Scotland has an immense opportunity now, if it is properly negotiated and candidly explained by the Scottish Government to the Scottish People; and while Government would have to be honest and frank about the many challenges Scotland will face in the early days of being a new nation, I believe that is now the only decent option which Scotland has. There is no intellectually honest way to justify a cowering acceptance of England’s negative and self destructive decision, and ‘play along’ for the sake of things.
I don’t want to leave the UK, I’ve always been proud to be British and Scottish: but England chose to abandon the British values in which I believe. England is leaving Britain, but Scotland should keep true to the inclusive and international spirit that once made Britain admired. We will still have many ties of course to the UK, but Scotland should now become independent, and take its seat among the nations of the EU.'
Yep, I support the Union - but you really can't argue against any of that.
Oh yes you can. Scotland is far, far further away from being a viable country that it was at the time of Sindy. If we went independent we would need to cut public spending by at least 10%, almost certainly more. Our economy is absolutely dependent upon having a single market with rUK. When the UK was in the EU this was guaranteed. That is no longer the case. Even Nicola is saying we need to wait and see what the outcome of the EU/UK discussions are. Leaving to remain in the EU when rUK was out and not a part of the single market would be totally and utterly insane.
Err, EU immigrants are mostly (all?) white. Not sure what relevance this has.
The conflation of immigration with race I suppose.
The racism dog whistles from Remain about Farage were when it became clear they were losing and their 'ecomomy, stupid' approach was failing. It was a sign they were getting desperate and needed Labour ethnic minority voters to come to their rescue.
The scare mongering about 77 million Turks was not just about numbers it was about them being dusky Muslims.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Keep hoping and fingers crossed
malc you are at least one of the honest Nats whos prepared to take the hit on the wallet for Indy.
Nonetheless next time round the economics have got worse and some of the joke comments on border posst at gretna will be a reality since entering the EU will be on their terms. Different arguments this time round
What legal protections are offered to EU members being excluded like this,
I'm not sure what legal protections could exist to prevent countries talking about you behind your back. If they did exist, to what EU court would you plead your case given that you are now pledged to leave it?
UKIP has destroyed the UK as a unitary state. It cannot have achieved its purpose.
Nope. The SNP. They can't or won't accept the result of a UK-wide referendum, less than two years after Scotland voted 55% to stay in the UK.
You don't get it do you, the people who were fooled have just realised that they count for nothing. Scotland gets what England wants whether they like it or not. Any moron looking at the arithmetic would have realised that , but instead 55% chose to listen to Tory lies. That will not be the case in the next one.
I agree Malcolm with one proviso,currency.IMO that's where indyref1 lost lat time.How do you think the SNP should approach this issue for indyref2? The Scottish Pound? The Euro?
Hard one , personally I said last time they have to bite the bullet and at minimum set a timetable for transition from £ to own currency or go the whole hog and join the Euro. This has really shown what any sensible person should have known though , if you are 8% of a vote then you do what you are told , you do not have any options. That and that alone is why we need to be independent.
By the way, I see that Broxtowe (=Anna Soubry and me) had one of the lowest Leave votes in the East Midlands, at 54%. However, Leicester and Rushcliffe (=Ken Clarke) were the only Remain areas though Nottingham was a virtually even split.
Who won that "most pro-Remain mainland area" bet, by the way? I remember Edinburgh, Islington and Brighton all in the running.
As regards the nationalism question across in Northern Ireland, this place isn't going to vote to part ways with the UK.
It will be a waste of money to even bother organising a poll and everyone here knows it.
Remarkably little sense of whats going on with Labour at the moment. Another story of rebellion and resignations but so far the attempts by MPs to get rid of Corbyn has been one of the worst political insurgencies seen in a while.
But if, Scotland splits from England, what does Northern Ireland want to be in a union with? There is no UK.
Let me assure you for most Ulster protestants, the Union means with Scotland and under the crown. They don't much care for England at all.
A Scottish / Ulster Federation with the Queen as head of state within the EU is my prediction.
The Irish don't want them, the English don't want them, I'm pretty damn sure Scotland doesn't want them either.
Like the football team, a seperate EU nation in their own right.
If Boris DOESN'T get PM, I wonder what sort of mood he will be in and how will he behave?!
Relief I would imagine.
He torched the building for the sake of his career, but he didn't really want a career trying to sweep up the ashes
It really would be interesting to know whether Boris made his decision on this referendum really thinking that Leave might win. I do wonder if his comment on an illegal immigrant amnesty near the end was a desperate attempt to throw away victory, and was let down by it almost completely ignored.
He actually voted at 9.30pm - must be almost unprecedented for a campaign leader to vote so late. Wonder if psychologist could make anything of that. He had allegedly conceded defeat before he had even voted himself!
Hadn't he been caught up in the train fiasco that his successor has created?
Boris was seen on the tube either just before or after he voted. He (allegedly) told some guy he thought leave had lost. Of course the guy then takes a photo of a dishevelled Boris and posts the comment up on Twitter.
If he does make PM he is going to have to change....
Point 1: Leave thought they had lost (UKIP/ Farage/ Johnson all stated/ tweeted that) because the turnout appeared to be very high and they thought that the young had energised themselves to vote. In fact No 10 thought the same thing (There is an article in the Mail about how it panned out). It was only when Newcastle and Sunderland reported (or they were getting reports on how it was going) that they actually had evidence that it was in fact a class rather than age turnout boost. (not being demeaning)
Point 2: Yes he is - markedly and rapidly. Cameron's hiatus on going has at least given him 3 months to present a more sober and responsible Johnson to the party, the press and the people.
I went to bed at about 5am when Birmingham came out for Leave. Up to that point, I still wasn't sure.
"Eight of the city's MPs had backed Remain in the referendum, with just two campaigning for Brexit."
As regards the nationalism question across in Northern Ireland, this place isn't going to vote to part ways with the UK.
It will be a waste of money to even bother organising a poll and everyone here knows it.
Remarkably little sense of whats going on with Labour at the moment. Another story of rebellion and resignations but so far the attempts by MPs to get rid of Corbyn has been one of the worst political insurgencies seen in a while.
But if, Scotland splits from England, what does Northern Ireland want to be in a union with? There is no UK.
Let me assure you for most Ulster protestants, the Union means with Scotland and under the crown. They don't much care for England at all.
A Scottish / Ulster Federation with the Queen as head of state within the EU is my prediction.
The Irish don't want them, the English don't want them, I'm pretty damn sure Scotland doesn't want them either.
Weren't the original irish protestants brigands deported from the scottish-english border region when James I became King of both countries?
If scotland-england divide again, we'll clearly need to turn the border area into a lawless wasteland again.
'Scotland will have to set up a domestic central bank and adopt the Euro, that seems beyond question: but this is hardly much of a requirement given the position we have now reached. Scotland has an immense opportunity now, if it is properly negotiated and candidly explained by the Scottish Government to the Scottish People; and while Government would have to be honest and frank about the many challenges Scotland will face in the early days of being a new nation, I believe that is now the only decent option which Scotland has. There is no intellectually honest way to justify a cowering acceptance of England’s negative and self destructive decision, and ‘play along’ for the sake of things.
I don’t want to leave the UK, I’ve always been proud to be British and Scottish: but England chose to abandon the British values in which I believe. England is leaving Britain, but Scotland should keep true to the inclusive and international spirit that once made Britain admired. We will still have many ties of course to the UK, but Scotland should now become independent, and take its seat among the nations of the EU.'
Yep, the Union is done. This wasn't just the English voting for a government the Scots didn't want; it was the English putting Scotland on a completely different and unalterable future trajectory that the Scots demonstrably don't want. The partnership, such as it was, is over.
What exactly was the meaning of voting to remain in the Union in 2014, other than an acceptance of being outvoted by the English in future decisions?
Something that was conceptual has become reality. I imagine that has concentrated a few minds.
I can't stress enough how much the Better Together campaign played the 'loss of EU membership' card. Lots of No voters I know are doing some soul searching at the moment. Not all will come on board but given Yes Scotland got to 45% last time, if Sturgeon can stitch together a convincing deal, enough will.
If she can get a deal from EU it will be sure to be YES. Issue as Pete says down below is currency , they need to be coherent this time.
The bile spewing from remainers is incredible. Watched the bbc 24 news at 10am and it was a festival of shroud waving.
They cant get tbeir way so like spoilt children they *want* armaggedon.
Their hate of their fellow countrymen is no longer concealed.
Must say you made big calls on the ge and referendum results and were right both times.
Have any of the people who mocked you apologised ?
Alas not a single one, but their hubris earned me £120 and my work colleages remain and leavers alike got a pint out of it last night.
(me dashing out Thursday lunchtime and placing the bet introduced a note of levity the next morning that broke the ice and eliminated any possibility of post referendum tension. Even the most ardent remainers thought 6-1 on a close two horse race was bonkers).
So Face?, Bovvered?got what I wanted, was right and have some extra cash to spare. Happy Days
UKIP has destroyed the UK as a unitary state. It cannot have achieved its purpose.
Nope. The SNP. They can't or won't accept the result of a UK-wide referendum, less than two years after Scotland voted 55% to stay in the UK.
You don't get it do you, the people who were fooled have just realised that they count for nothing. Scotland gets what England wants whether they like it or not. Any moron looking at the arithmetic would have realised that , but instead 55% chose to listen to Tory lies. That will not be the case in the next one.
I agree Malcolm with one proviso,currency.IMO that's where indyref1 lost lat time.How do you think the SNP should approach this issue for indyref2? The Scottish Pound? The Euro?
Hard one , personally I said last time they have to bite the bullet and at minimum set a timetable for transition from £ to own currency or go the whole hog and join the Euro. This has really shown what any sensible person should have known though , if you are 8% of a vote then you do what you are told , you do not have any options. That and that alone is why we need to be independent.
So do you think Scotland would vote for independence in another referendum regardless, or do you think that the key questions would still need to be answered by the Yes campaign of the time? And if the latter, do you not think that every time a key question is 'answered' that would have the potential to drive people away? How many Scots would vote for independence if told it WOULD mean adopting the Euro, for example? Especially given that some of the Euro countries (Greece!) have spent the last 5 years with far less control over their destiny than the Scots in the UK.
You are in the position where your starting point is for independence, all you require is a workable framework to deliver that. As you indicated you aren't that bothered about the actual details of that framework. You just think the questions should be answered. But for people who don't start from a position of certainty whether they vote yes or no, the actual nature of the framework offered will matter.
'Scotland will have to set up a domestic central bank and adopt the Euro, that seems beyond question: but this is hardly much of a requirement given the position we have now reached. Scotland has an immense opportunity now, if it is properly negotiated and candidly explained by the Scottish Government to the Scottish People; and while Government would have to be honest and frank about the many challenges Scotland will face in the early days of being a new nation, I believe that is now the only decent option which Scotland has. There is no intellectually honest way to justify a cowering acceptance of England’s negative and self destructive decision, and ‘play along’ for the sake of things.
I don’t want to leave the UK, I’ve always been proud to be British and Scottish: but England chose to abandon the British values in which I believe. England is leaving Britain, but Scotland should keep true to the inclusive and international spirit that once made Britain admired. We will still have many ties of course to the UK, but Scotland should now become independent, and take its seat among the nations of the EU.'
Yep, I support the Union - but you really can't argue against any of that.
Oh yes you can. Scotland is far, far further away from being a viable country that it was at the time of Sindy. If we went independent we would need to cut public spending by at least 10%, almost certainly more. Our economy is absolutely dependent upon having a single market with rUK. When the UK was in the EU this was guaranteed. That is no longer the case. Even Nicola is saying we need to wait and see what the outcome of the EU/UK discussions are. Leaving to remain in the EU when rUK was out and not a part of the single market would be totally and utterly insane.
But rUK being outside the market is also insane. With rUK non-EU but EEA then Scotland inside the EU maybe not so insane. Biggest challenge is the currency.
Given the circumstances I'm being allowed some time on site, albeit dictated, I could get used to this Miss Moneypenny.
1. Congratulations to LEAVE. The people have spoken. The decision is clear.
2. Many apologies I got the result wrong. My ARSE was trending toward LEAVE but certainly wouldn't have moved to 52/48 to LEAVE, more likely the direct opposite. Essentially I underestimated turnout especially with WWC.
3. I'm very sorry to see Cameron go. Given the hand he was dealt in 2010 he proved to be an excellent Coalition PM. He gave us the referendum, rolled the dice for REMAIN and lost.
4. Next PM. It's May for me, anyone but Boris.
5. Corbyn should go too. A total tool. About as effective as a leader and potential PM as a fart in a hurricane.
6.Lastly and this will shock many but Scotland should now opt for independence. There I said it. The will of the Scottish people on the EU, a matter of the most crucial significance for the future, was clear. Hopefully it will be an amicable uncoupling. I would vote for YES in SINDY2, if still around.
SINDY2 should take place within 18 months and a YES vote take effect on the date of BREXIT two years after Article 50 is enabled or before 2020 whichever is sooner.
Fascinating. Surely it depends on #1 Nicola being able to secure continuity of the current UK opt outs #2 the UK leaving the EEA altogether. In those circumstances even someone like me who thinks of themselves as British first would tell you to go for it. But those are two enormous ifs to both come off.
Hello YS.
To us anoraks those issues appear important but if we've learnt one thing from the BREXIT vote it is that mood music can trump a close analysis of detailed issues.
The dismay among many Scots about BREXIT is palpable being fairly reported in huge swathes of the Scottish media and among my circle of Unionists friends there is unease and a sense that not only that Scotland is another country within the UK but should look again at the option of independence.
Sturgeon indicates BREXIT is a gamechanger. She is correct.
Thanks to others who commented on my post and the good wishes.
Best Wishes to you Jack, hope you are back to 100% soon.
Sounds like a massive and expensive bueraceatic exercise. And what happens after 5 years? What about someone who moves to the UK the day before we formally leave the EU?
Of course, many EU citizens living in the UK already qualify for UK citizenship.
Yes it is arduous but it is equitable. No-one will be 'cleansed' and all current, legal residents will be supported and helped. [OK; Bennies will be reduced, but...]
What I would propose is to ensure that EU-migrants are safe but treated as equitably as non-EU citizens. Discrimination is not a solution so let us reduce the impact upon our current population in a fair and just way.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Ruth Davidson made the point the the number of scots who voted against scottish independence was larger than the number of scots who voted for Remain.
Yes I think that's also important to note. There are a lot of people for whom EU membership means very little and just didn't care enough to vote.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Keep hoping and fingers crossed
malc you are at least one of the honest Nats whos prepared to take the hit on the wallet for Indy.
Nonetheless next time round the economics have got worse and some of the joke comments on border posst at gretna will be a reality since entering the EU will be on their terms. Different arguments this time round
For sure Alan, it is us that will be putting up the border posts to stop the starving English getting into the EU.
PS: At least we have another 3 or so years of referendums to keep us happy
Given the circumstances I'm being allowed some time on site, albeit dictated, I could get used to this Miss Moneypenny.
1. Congratulations to LEAVE. The people have spoken. The decision is clear.
2. Many apologies I got the result wrong. My ARSE was trending toward LEAVE but certainly wouldn't have moved to 52/48 to LEAVE, more likely the direct opposite. Essentially I underestimated turnout especially with WWC.
3. I'm very sorry to see Cameron go. Given the hand he was dealt in 2010 he proved to be an excellent Coalition PM. He gave us the referendum, rolled the dice for REMAIN and lost.
4. Next PM. It's May for me, anyone but Boris.
5. Corbyn should go too. A total tool. About as effective as a leader and potential PM as a fart in a hurricane.
6.Lastly and this will shock many but Scotland should now opt for independence. There I said it. The will of the Scottish people on the EU, a matter of the most crucial significance for the future, was clear. Hopefully it will be an amicable uncoupling. I would vote for YES in SINDY2, if still around.
SINDY2 should take place within 18 months and a YES vote take effect on the date of BREXIT two years after Article 50 is enabled or before 2020 whichever is sooner.
Fascinating. Surely it depends on #1 Nicola being able to secure continuity of the current UK opt outs #2 the UK leaving the EEA altogether. In those circumstances even someone like me who thinks of themselves as British first would tell you to go for it. But those are two enormous ifs to both come off.
Hello YS.
To us anoraks those issues appear important but if we've learnt one thing from the BREXIT vote it is that mood music can trump a close analysis of detailed issues.
The dismay among many Scots about BREXIT is palpable being fairly reported in huge swathes of the Scottish media and among my circle of Unionists friends there is unease and a sense that not only that Scotland is another country within the UK but should look again at the option of independence.
Sturgeon indicates BREXIT is a gamechanger. She is correct.
Thanks to others who commented on my post and the good wishes.
Yes, best wishes Jack.
My Scottish friend is only one contact (an ARSOO, I guess) but has gone from definite pro-uk to probable independent in the last few days. It all depends on how sturgeon - who has an extraordinary amount of goodwill and political capital to spend - plays it.
I have a perfect left candidate that I think could reach into Labour heartlands.
He is major supporter of Corbyn, so wouldn't move against Jeremy. But he has a great back story- fought in Afghanistan and Sandhurst trained. He also has a messianic following in Norwich. He is presentable, good looking and communicates easily.
The bile spewing from remainers is incredible. Watched the bbc 24 news at 10am and it was a festival of shroud waving.
They cant get tbeir way so like spoilt children they *want* armaggedon.
Their hate of their fellow countrymen is no longer concealed.
Must say you made big calls on the ge and referendum results and were right both times.
Have any of the people who mocked you apologised ?
Alas not a single one, but their hubris earned me £120 and my work colleages remain and leavers alike got a pint out of it last night.
(me dashing out Thursday lunchtime and placing the bet introduced a note of levity the next morning that broke the ice and eliminated any possibility of post referendum tension. Even the most ardent remainers thought 6-1 on a close two horse race was bonkers).
So Face?, Bovvered?got what I wanted, was right and have some extra cash to spare. Happy Days
Yes, it is difficult to believe that you could odds of 6, 7, 8 or even higher at some points on a result that always looked close whatever. Astonishing night of betting.
Why are scotland so keen to ditch union with us who gives them virtual independence in our union to persue ever closer union with unelected bureaucrats who hate democracy and want to control everything and to whom Scotland will just be a small state of useful idiots to be manipulated and abused as it suits them?
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Ruth Davidson made the point the the number of scots who voted against scottish independence was larger than the number of scots who voted for Remain.
Tory uses fake statistics shocker and compares an apple to a banana and comes up with a bunch of (sour) grapes.
Postal votes lie behind Leaves success.Most of the postal votes were returned at the time when opinion poll support for Leave was at its highest.This and the tendency of older people to vote leave means that the estimated 10 million postal votes probably split 60:40 in favour of leave a lead of 2 million.looking at final votes it looks as if on polling day Remain probably carried the day 51:49 but this was not sufficient to offset leaves 2 million lead from postal votes. Does anyone know if the count has produced the exact postal non postal split?
I remember that on election night, quite early on in the BBC coverage, Paddy "Hat Eating" Ashdown raised this prospect but it was dismissed by Dimblebore and Curtis.
As a matter of interest why is the issue of postal votes an issue at all? Unless there has been fraud it's a totally legitimate way to vote, especially favouring older people. The idea that somehow 'postal votes' won it for leave is bizarre. People won it for leave.
And we can all go around citing this or that circumstance. Had Thomas Mair not shot Jo Cox there's a distinct possibility Leave would have won 55-45.
Tell you what, able bodied people are allowed postal votes but they never get to complain about anyone vein lazy.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
As regards the nationalism question across in Northern Ireland, this place isn't going to vote to part ways with the UK.
It will be a waste of money to even bother organising a poll and everyone here knows it.
Remarkably little sense of whats going on with Labour at the moment. Another story of rebellion and resignations but so far the attempts by MPs to get rid of Corbyn has been one of the worst political insurgencies seen in a while.
But if, Scotland splits from England, what does Northern Ireland want to be in a union with? There is no UK.
Let me assure you for most Ulster protestants, the Union means with Scotland and under the crown. They don't much care for England at all.
A Scottish / Ulster Federation with the Queen as head of state within the EU is my prediction.
The Irish don't want them, the English don't want them, I'm pretty damn sure Scotland doesn't want them either.
Weren't the original irish protestants brigands deported from the scottish-english border region when James I became King of both countries?
If scotland-england divide again, we'll clearly need to turn the border area into a lawless wasteland again.
The bulk of protestant migration to Ulster didnt happen under a plantation, but was an influx of scottish lowalnd farmers in the period 1700-1770. At one point 10% of all Scots were living there.
The influx was caused through a mix of more religious freedoms for Presbyterians and lower rents in ireland at a time when Scotland was struggling. Ulster was for about half a century the main migration desitination for scots. When things got tougher in ireland in the second half of C18 a lot of the second generation Scots moved on to America where they were known as Scots Irish.
Err, EU immigrants are mostly (all?) white. Not sure what relevance this has.
The conflation of immigration with race I suppose.
The racism dog whistles from Remain about Farage were when it became clear they were losing and their 'ecomomy, stupid' approach was failing. It was a sign they were getting desperate and needed Labour ethnic minority voters to come to their rescue.
The scare mongering about 77 million Turks was not just about numbers it was about them being dusky Muslims.
Think it was more the mustachioed rather than the dusky ones.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Keep hoping and fingers crossed
malc you are at least one of the honest Nats whos prepared to take the hit on the wallet for Indy.
Nonetheless next time round the economics have got worse and some of the joke comments on border posst at gretna will be a reality since entering the EU will be on their terms. Different arguments this time round
For sure Alan, it is us that will be putting up the border posts to stop the starving English getting into the EU.
PS: At least we have another 3 or so years of referendums to keep us happy
@dannyctkemp: This is extraordinary -- French foreign minister calls for new British prime minister 'in coming days' - @AFP
WTF has it got to do with them. Do they not understand what we the british people told them - mind your own business and keep your nose out of our internal affairs
Why are scotland so keen to ditch union with us who gives them virtual independence in our union to persue ever closer union with unelected bureaucrats who hate democracy and want to control everything and to whom Scotland will just be a small state of useful idiots to be manipulated and abused as it suits them?
Do you ever look at election results in UK and see the democratic deficit we have , hate Tories , They are voted in , want to stay in EU , voted out , etc etc etc. Useful idiots in the EU would be an amazing amount more democracy than we have now.
'Scotland will have to set up a domestic central bank and adopt the Euro, that seems beyond question: but this is hardly much of a requirement given the position we have now reached. Scotland has an immense opportunity now, if it is properly negotiated and candidly explained by the Scottish Government to the Scottish People; and while Government would have to be honest and frank about the many challenges Scotland will face in the early days of being a new nation, I believe that is now the only decent option which Scotland has. There is no intellectually honest way to justify a cowering acceptance of England’s negative and self destructive decision, and ‘play along’ for the sake of things.
I don’t want to leave the UK, I’ve always been proud to be British and Scottish: but England chose to abandon the British values in which I believe. England is leaving Britain, but Scotland should keep true to the inclusive and international spirit that once made Britain admired. We will still have many ties of course to the UK, but Scotland should now become independent, and take its seat among the nations of the EU.'
Yep, the Union is done. This wasn't just the English voting for a government the Scots didn't want; it was the English putting Scotland on a completely different and unalterable future trajectory that the Scots demonstrably don't want. The partnership, such as it was, is over.
What exactly was the meaning of voting to remain in the Union in 2014, other than an acceptance of being outvoted by the English in future decisions?
Something that was conceptual has become reality. I imagine that has concentrated a few minds.
I can't stress enough how much the Better Together campaign played the 'loss of EU membership' card. Lots of No voters I know are doing some soul searching at the moment. Not all will come on board but given Yes Scotland got to 45% last time, if Sturgeon can stitch together a convincing deal, enough will.
If she can get a deal from EU it will be sure to be YES. Issue as Pete says down below is currency , they need to be coherent this time.
This is crucial - this is why Yes lost and everyone knows it. Sturgeon won't make that mistake twice. The EU issue will shift some businesses to declare for Yes, so all to play for.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Keep hoping and fingers crossed
malc you are at least one of the honest Nats whos prepared to take the hit on the wallet for Indy.
Nonetheless next time round the economics have got worse and some of the joke comments on border posst at gretna will be a reality since entering the EU will be on their terms. Different arguments this time round
For sure Alan, it is us that will be putting up the border posts to stop the starving English getting into the EU.
PS: At least we have another 3 or so years of referendums to keep us happy
anything but another 3 year campaign :-)
You trying to pretend you are not excited about the thought of it
Why are scotland so keen to ditch union with us who gives them virtual independence in our union to persue ever closer union with unelected bureaucrats who hate democracy and want to control everything and to whom Scotland will just be a small state of useful idiots to be manipulated and abused as it suits them?
AFAIK the only unelected bureaucrats running the EU are there because UK elected politicians voted for the EU to be run that way. It was probably all unanimous voting at the time; i.e., all the Council of Ministers would have had to support it.
I agree that having a Commission that functions in the way it does looks undemocratic to the UK eye - we have government departments in which elected Ministers are responsible for decisions (although Sir Humphrey may make some of them) - but I'm doubtful that it was imposed on us.
AFAIK the European Parliament and the Council, which make up two of the EU's three parts, are entirely composed of elected politicians.
But I'm not a politician or lawyer so if anyone knows better feel free to correct me.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Lol, if 45/55 is a large margin what is 62/38?
I right, I didn't understand your (?) reference to this the other day, thought you were talking about AV or something! Of course 62/38 is enormous. Don't really see the relevance, unless the potential to stay in the EU will definitely lead to a Sindy yes vote. I arguing that in the cold light of day, it won't necessarily lead to a fundamental change in the basis Yes/no argument. Polls suggested previously it wouldn't, have there been any done since Thursday (not that the immediate aftermath is likely to be particularly reliable).
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
I too am gald to see Jack posting again. Welcome news.
I have some reason to believe long established immigrants and their second (and third etc) generations voted for Leave because they didn’t like East European immigrants. Same as their WWC neighbours.
As regards the nationalism question across in Northern Ireland, this place isn't going to vote to part ways with the UK.
It will be a waste of money to even bother organising a poll and everyone here knows it.
Remarkably little sense of whats going on with Labour at the moment. Another story of rebellion and resignations but so far the attempts by MPs to get rid of Corbyn has been one of the worst political insurgencies seen in a while.
But if, Scotland splits from England, what does Northern Ireland want to be in a union with? There is no UK.
Let me assure you for most Ulster protestants, the Union means with Scotland and under the crown. They don't much care for England at all.
A Scottish / Ulster Federation with the Queen as head of state within the EU is my prediction.
The Irish don't want them, the English don't want them, I'm pretty damn sure Scotland doesn't want them either.
I have a feeling we will end up with a federal Ireland, with NI being devolved with much the same powers as Scotland with a dual head of state for all of Ireland, The president in Dublin Castle and HM Queen, within the UK but renamed as something else such as the Commonwealth of the Isles and outside the EU.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Keep hoping and fingers crossed
malc you are at least one of the honest Nats whos prepared to take the hit on the wallet for Indy.
Nonetheless next time round the economics have got worse and some of the joke comments on border posst at gretna will be a reality since entering the EU will be on their terms. Different arguments this time round
For sure Alan, it is us that will be putting up the border posts to stop the starving English getting into the EU.
PS: At least we have another 3 or so years of referendums to keep us happy
anything but another 3 year campaign :-)
You trying to pretend you are not excited about the thought of it
well we'd have to get James and Pork back or it would be no fun !
So if the UK is off, then presumably there's no TTIP, so no EU\USA deal and we're the only one in the queue ?
The TTIP is presumably between the EU and the USA and so would not be automatically "off".
Presumably the point is that the EU without the UK means the whole thing needs to be started from scratch.
That may well be the point the OP was trying to make, but I'm not sure it's factual: I assume that if the agreement is with the EU as a legal entity rather than with its component parts, then the fact that one of the parts is leaving is irrelevant.
However if I am mistaken in that assumption, I apologise
So if the UK is off, then presumably there's no TTIP, so no EU\USA deal and we're the only one in the queue ?
The TTIP is presumably between the EU and the USA and so would not be automatically "off".
Presumably the point is that the EU without the UK means the whole thing needs to be started from scratch.
That may well be the point the OP was trying to make, but I'm not sure it's factual: I assume that if the agreement is with the EU as a legal entity rather than with its component parts, then the fact that one of the parts is leaving is irrelevant.
However if I am mistaken in that assumption, I apologise
I didn't mean it legally had to be started from scratch, just that the advantages to the US would be diminished so they would need to look again at what they were giving in relation to what they were getting.
Why are scotland so keen to ditch union with us who gives them virtual independence in our union to persue ever closer union with unelected bureaucrats who hate democracy and want to control everything and to whom Scotland will just be a small state of useful idiots to be manipulated and abused as it suits them?
Do you ever look at election results in UK and see the democratic deficit we have , hate Tories , They are voted in , want to stay in EU , voted out , etc etc etc. Useful idiots in the EU would be an amazing amount more democracy than we have now.
It will sooner or later sink in that the English have kicked the establishment you so dislike firmly in the nuts and things will calm down and more rational thought prevail
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
Scotland to enter into "immediate discussions" with Brussels - Sturgeon
Why are scotland so keen to ditch union with us who gives them virtual independence in our union to persue ever closer union with unelected bureaucrats who hate democracy and want to control everything and to whom Scotland will just be a small state of useful idiots to be manipulated and abused as it suits them?
"Union with unelected bureaucrats who hate democracy and want to control everything and to whom Scotland will just be a small state of useful idiots to be manipulated and abused as it suits them" is an accurate (if contentious!) statement of Scotland's current position within the UK.
Why are scotland so keen to ditch union with us who gives them virtual independence in our union to persue ever closer union with unelected bureaucrats who hate democracy and want to control everything and to whom Scotland will just be a small state of useful idiots to be manipulated and abused as it suits them?
Do you ever look at election results in UK and see the democratic deficit we have , hate Tories , They are voted in , want to stay in EU , voted out , etc etc etc. Useful idiots in the EU would be an amazing amount more democracy than we have now.
It will sooner or later sink in that the English have kicked the establishment you so dislike firmly in the nuts and things will calm down and more rational thought prevail
To be fair this is an interesting point. If this vote is looked at as being purely about the EU then clearly the Scots can take great issue with it. However, looking deeper one can see that a large part of the vote was not directly about the EU but a consequence of all the things that drove the Independence campaign in Scotland. Powerlessness in the light of Westminster politicians, anger about austerity etc etc. Doesn't mean anything will change etc, but the Scots should really be able to understand that this wasn't necessarily England diverging so much from Scottish opinion as the vote might suggest.
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
Scotland to enter into "immediate discussions" with Brussels - Sturgeon
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
Scotland to enter into "immediate discussions" with Brussels - Sturgeon
Catalan nat leader wants immediate talks in Brussels
Britain Elects @britainelects 29m29 minutes ago On the next Conservative Party leader calling an early General Election: Support: 50% Oppose: 22% (via TNS)
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive.
They can't make the UK trigger article 50. However, they can act as if it has (see previous posts) until the UK gets the hint.
on polling day. You Gov has remain in the lead .It is likely that remain did win the day probably 51:49.We need to sea the total referendum vote split into postal and polling station to check this but my estimate is that leave brought a 2 million vote lead into polling day from postal votes.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Lol, if 45/55 is a large margin what is 62/38?
I right, I didn't understand your (?) reference to this the other day, thought you were talking about AV or something! Of course 62/38 is enormous. Don't really see the relevance, unless the potential to stay in the EU will definitely lead to a Sindy yes vote. I arguing that in the cold light of day, it won't necessarily lead to a fundamental change in the basis Yes/no argument. Polls suggested previously it wouldn't, have there been any done since Thursday (not that the immediate aftermath is likely to be particularly reliable).
It is all about the grid of IndyRef to Brexit vote, how many are in each category. If the distribution is right then Sindy is inevitable. If it isn't (I.e. a high number if Yes/Leave that prioritise Leave or monstrous No/Leave figures) then it isn't.
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
Scotland to enter into "immediate discussions" with Brussels - Sturgeon
She seems to be getting a bit ahead of herself.
Not at all, she is seizing the moment. Let us see if the EU leaders tell her to F Off a la Cameron got. That will be the interesting part.
'Scotland will have to set up a domestic central bank and adopt the Euro, that seems beyond question: but this is hardly much of a requirement given the position we have now reached. Scotland has an immense opportunity now, if it is properly negotiated and candidly explained by the Scottish Government to the Scottish People; and while Government would have to be honest and frank about the many challenges Scotland will face in the early days of being a new nation, I believe that is now the only decent option which Scotland has. There is no intellectually honest way to justify a cowering acceptance of England’s negative and self destructive decision, and ‘play along’ for the sake of things.
I don’t want to leave the UK, I’ve always been proud to be British and Scottish: but England chose to abandon the British values in which I believe. England is leaving Britain, but Scotland should keep true to the inclusive and international spirit that once made Britain admired. We will still have many ties of course to the UK, but Scotland should now become independent, and take its seat among the nations of the EU.'
Yep, I support the Union - but you really can't argue against any of that.
Oh yes you can. Scotland is far, far further away from being a viable country that it was at the time of Sindy. If we went independent we would need to cut public spending by at least 10%, almost certainly more. Our economy is absolutely dependent upon having a single market with rUK. When the UK was in the EU this was guaranteed. That is no longer the case. Even Nicola is saying we need to wait and see what the outcome of the EU/UK discussions are. Leaving to remain in the EU when rUK was out and not a part of the single market would be totally and utterly insane.
All very true, but as we've just seen populist feeing and solutions can defeat reasoned, evidence based arguments.
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
Scotland to enter into "immediate discussions" with Brussels - Sturgeon
She seems to be getting a bit ahead of herself.
Not at all, she is seizing the moment. Let us see if the EU leaders tell her to F Off a la Cameron got. That will be the interesting part.
They make a big fuss of her but then give her nothing of substance as the countries with their own splitters wont wear it
Britain Elects @britainelects 29m29 minutes ago On the next Conservative Party leader calling an early General Election: Support: 50% Oppose: 22% (via TNS)
I'd support that - I don't think we should change PM without an election.
on polling day. You Gov has remain in the lead .It is likely that remain did win the day probably 51:49.We need to sea the total referendum vote split into postal and polling station to check this but my estimate is that leave brought a 2 million vote lead into polling day from postal votes.
on polling day. You Gov has remain in the lead .It is likely that remain did win the day probably 51:49.We need to sea the total referendum vote split into postal and polling station to check this but my estimate is that leave brought a 2 million vote lead into polling day from postal votes.
I was under the impression that YouGov asked if you were registered to vote/had voted already.
I read earlier today that Populus were the Remain campaigns private pollster. Oh dear me. 55/45 for Remain on the day.
EDIT
"Lord Cooper, a co-founder of the Populus polling company and the architect of the PM’s policy on gay marriage, called to say he thought the margin of victory for Remain would be 60/40. A few hours later, Populus published its final poll of the campaign – giving Remain a commanding ten-point lead.
Poor spelling apart ( Tennent's ), though that and the fact that Scotland has a huge variety of craft ales nowadays , only goes to prove that you have never been to or know remotely anything about Scotland. Keep up the good work but try to come out of the 70's. Have another Red Barrel or Carling.
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
Scotland to enter into "immediate discussions" with Brussels - Sturgeon
She seems to be getting a bit ahead of herself.
Not at all, she is seizing the moment. Let us see if the EU leaders tell her to F Off a la Cameron got. That will be the interesting part.
They make a big fuss of her but then give her nothing of substance as the countries with their own splitters wont wear it
I'd support that - I don't think we should change PM without an election.
OFFS:
We are not changing the HoS but the PM: No need for an election (as the next leader should have majority support within the Palace-of-Westminster. The system works (apart from Gormless McBruin).
@AlbertoNardelli: Line at Berlin meeting of foreign ministers clear: UK should trigger Art. 50 as soon as reasonably possible, current limbo counterproductive
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
Scotland to enter into "immediate discussions" with Brussels - Sturgeon
She seems to be getting a bit ahead of herself.
Not at all, she is seizing the moment. Let us see if the EU leaders tell her to F Off a la Cameron got. That will be the interesting part.
They make a big fuss of her but then give her nothing of substance as the countries with their own splitters wont wear it
It remains to be seen, she has to test the water
lol she'll be played for a bargaining chip and then hit with a hard deal.
with 3 of the 6 potentially on the AWOL list thats just amazing.
You know that whole REMAIN/LEAVE referendum thing? The one where we had a lengthy discussion about whether being in the EU was good or bad and whether we should stay or go?
Well, that's over now. We had the vote and LEAVE won.
You can now stop posting lengthy posts (ouch!) about how terrible the EU is and how beaurocrats eat babies and is responsible for all the wrong in the world. The internal structure of the EU is no longer the UK's concern.
Do people really believe that the EU was a fundamental issue in the Sindy ref? Brexit still feels like an excuse to have another referendum, not necessarily something that will change the outcome.
SNP still haven't remotely answered the economic case. I know people have said that Brexit proves that people will vote for heart over head, but that ignores a few points
1) The Scots didn't last time, by a large margin 2) The SNP haven't answered the key questions on currency etc. Brexit was purely about the relative extent to which our economy and trade would suffer. The Scottish questions were far more fundamental. 3) The polls suggested that most people didn't even believe the dire economic warnings about Brexit, so the extent to which they actually thought they were voting against their economic interests is questionable.
One other point - 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. Whilst allowing for the possibility that some of these might have been "tactical" pro-Independence voters, that's a sizeable proportion in a referendum called on the back of Brexit. Unless Sturgeon can offer a cast iron guarantee that Sindy=back in the EU (and on reasonably favourable terms) I don't see why "Brexit against the Scottish will" should necessarily be enough.
Keep hoping and fingers crossed
malc you are at least one of the honest Nats whos prepared to take the hit on the wallet for Indy.
Nonetheless next time round the economics have got worse and some of the joke comments on border posst at gretna will be a reality since entering the EU will be on their terms. Different arguments this time round
For sure Alan, it is us that will be putting up the border posts to stop the starving English getting into the EU.
PS: At least we have another 3 or so years of referendums to keep us happy
anything but another 3 year campaign :-)
You trying to pretend you are not excited about the thought of it
well we'd have to get James and Pork back or it would be no fun !
For me it is the thought of John Barrowman coming back to tell us we are Better Together.
Comments
There was plenty of hatemongering Leavers but they hated the EU or foreigners.
The hatemongering Remainers hate their fellow countrymen.
Point 2: Yes he is - markedly and rapidly. Cameron's hiatus on going has at least given him 3 months to present a more sober and responsible Johnson to the party, the press and the people.
next the EU. Presume that Scotland cannot apply to the EU unless it is an independent country?
Next getting into the EU may not be easy particularly if the finances are poor.
Frankly it looks as if Nichola has along and bumpy road ahead.
Take seats of Labour.
The referendum was won by the "ex" Labour heartlands.
They just sussed Labour for what they actually are.
BIG STATE corporatists, shackled by their own peculiar brand of leftist middle class cultural marxism.
I saw some of Sky last night, and again this morning - it's all rather sad. I gather C4 News is experiencing a collective nervous breakdown.
To us anoraks those issues appear important but if we've learnt one thing from the BREXIT vote it is that mood music can trump a close analysis of detailed issues.
The dismay among many Scots about BREXIT is palpable being fairly reported in huge swathes of the Scottish media and among my circle of Unionists friends there is unease and a sense that not only that Scotland is another country within the UK but should look again at the option of independence.
Sturgeon indicates BREXIT is a gamechanger. She is correct.
Thanks to others who commented on my post and the good wishes.
The racism dog whistles from Remain about Farage were when it became clear they were losing and their 'ecomomy, stupid' approach was failing. It was a sign they were getting desperate and needed Labour ethnic minority voters to come to their rescue.
People like him is what is wrong with our country.
Nonetheless next time round the economics have got worse and some of the joke comments on border posst at gretna will be a reality since entering the EU will be on their terms. Different arguments this time round
This has really shown what any sensible person should have known though , if you are 8% of a vote then you do what you are told , you do not have any options. That and that alone is why we need to be independent.
Who won that "most pro-Remain mainland area" bet, by the way? I remember Edinburgh, Islington and Brighton all in the running.
"Eight of the city's MPs had backed Remain in the referendum, with just two campaigning for Brexit."
Read more at http://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-result-birmingham-votes-leave-with-narrow-majority/#WY3hMF6FmQBXrjym.99
If scotland-england divide again, we'll clearly need to turn the border area into a lawless wasteland again.
(me dashing out Thursday lunchtime and placing the bet introduced a note of levity the next morning that broke the ice and eliminated any possibility of post referendum tension. Even the most ardent remainers thought 6-1 on a close two horse race was bonkers).
So Face?, Bovvered?got what I wanted, was right and have some extra cash to spare. Happy Days
You are in the position where your starting point is for independence, all you require is a workable framework to deliver that. As you indicated you aren't that bothered about the actual details of that framework. You just think the questions should be answered. But for people who don't start from a position of certainty whether they vote yes or no, the actual nature of the framework offered will matter.
supported and helped. [OK; Bennies will be reduced, but...]
What I would propose is to ensure that EU-migrants are safe but treated as equitably as non-EU citizens. Discrimination is not a solution so let us reduce the impact upon our current population in a fair and just way.
PS: At least we have another 3 or so years of referendums to keep us happy
My Scottish friend is only one contact (an ARSOO, I guess) but has gone from definite pro-uk to probable independent in the last few days. It all depends on how sturgeon - who has an extraordinary amount of goodwill and political capital to spend - plays it.
tyson
'You still whinging and bumping your gums, you picked a loser , get on with it. Given you don't even live in the country who cares what you think.'
Like
I think he's got a toffee stuck on a denture.
The influx was caused through a mix of more religious freedoms for Presbyterians and lower rents in ireland at a time when Scotland was struggling. Ulster was for about half a century the main migration desitination for scots. When things got tougher in ireland in the second half of C18 a lot of the second generation Scots moved on to America where they were known as Scots Irish.
@dannyctkemp: This is extraordinary -- French foreign minister calls for new British prime minister 'in coming days' - @AFP
Twenty-percent of the cost is Faslane (and environs). Please check facts before pishing on the goodwill of the English tax-payer.
[NOTE: The Astute-class will be heading Sarf' as well...!]
Useful idiots in the EU would be an amazing amount more democracy than we have now.
AFAIK the only unelected bureaucrats running the EU are there because UK elected politicians voted for the EU to be run that way. It was probably all unanimous voting at the time; i.e., all the Council of Ministers would have had to support it.
I agree that having a Commission that functions in the way it does looks undemocratic to the UK eye - we have government departments in which elected Ministers are responsible for decisions (although Sir Humphrey may make some of them) - but I'm doubtful that it was imposed on us.
AFAIK the European Parliament and the Council, which make up two of the EU's three parts, are entirely composed of elected politicians.
But I'm not a politician or lawyer so if anyone knows better feel free to correct me.
I have to say the line from the Brexiteers that having voted for Leave we should now NOT Leave is hilarious
UKIP candidate 2015 was a Muslim.
However if I am mistaken in that assumption, I apologise
More Europe.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/brexit/nach-brexit-entscheidung-berlin-und-paris-wollen-politische-union-vorantreiben-14307968.html
with 3 of the 6 potentially on the AWOL list thats just amazing.
Any revised thoughts on Mr Trump while you are here?
Can we have a betting-market as to how long we expect Belgium to remain a country?
On the next Conservative Party leader calling an early General Election:
Support: 50%
Oppose: 22%
(via TNS)
However, they can act as if it has (see previous posts) until the UK gets the hint.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ruddles+advert
I read earlier today that Populus were the Remain campaigns private pollster. Oh dear me. 55/45 for Remain on the day.
EDIT
"Lord Cooper, a co-founder of the Populus polling company and the architect of the PM’s policy on gay marriage, called to say he thought the margin of victory for Remain would be 60/40. A few hours later, Populus published its final poll of the campaign – giving Remain a commanding ten-point lead.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659064/ANDREW-PIERCE-Complacency-Number-10-bunker-turned-panic-tears.html#ixzz4Cab3lP68
We are not changing the HoS but the PM: No need for an election (as the next leader should have majority support within the Palace-of-Westminster. The system works (apart from Gormless McBruin).
the EU has enough on it plate atm.
Well, that's over now. We had the vote and LEAVE won.
You can now stop posting lengthy posts (ouch!) about how terrible the EU is and how beaurocrats eat babies and is responsible for all the wrong in the world. The internal structure of the EU is no longer the UK's concern.