Oh dear the chaos continues. -The Mayor of Calais is reconsidering the border controls- saying the French should no longer hold the refugees at Calais. Great stuff- we will move the Jungle to the racist Kent coast. Well Cameron did warn us -The six founding members of EU are meeting to decide to terms of our exit- Britain at the margins, a place we will have to get used to for many years to come. The first summit meeting we have not been invited to since 1975. Excellent- the UK is insignificant and ignored- a place we remember well from our time as the sick man of Europe before joining the EU -Our credit rating has been dropped to negative (on par with Spain)- the worst it has ever been by Moody's- let me remember something, oh yes we were warned about this one too by the Experts -The UK plunged into a constitutional crisis with the rise of Scottish and Irish nationalism- oh yes, didn't Cameron remind us of that one too? -Dominic Grieve saying the country is suffering an economic meltdown- now this is merely a year after we had Osborne's Long Term Economic Plan repeated ad nauseum at the 2015 election -Indian business leaders reviewing long term investment in the UK because of access to single market. The commonwealth argument- why would external investors from our great commonwealth invest in a market that only has access to 60m people?
Many people regretting now the fact that they voted leave- too late now suckers
Still we've taken back control. Right. We've taken back control to be a despised, ignored, insignificant, broken up, poorer little country faced to deal with some of the greatest global challenges- the migrant crisis per instance- alone. It wasn't like we were not warned.
Well fucking done Brexit.
Other than factually wrong on most of those points, it's a good post.
From 'Moneywise' What does Brexit mean for pensions?
Following the news that the UK has voted to leave the European Union we ask what impact the move will have on your pension, whether you are years away, approaching retirement or already retired.
For savers in defined contribution schemes: As the value of a defined contribution pension is directly linked to the stock market, members of these schemes will see the value of their savings drop on the back of the Brexit vote. Within minutes of opening the FTSE 100 lost 500 points with some banks falling by as much as 30%. But Tom McPhail, head of retirement policy at Hargreaves Lansdown is telling savers not to panic.
“For long term pension investors who may be seeing the value of their retirement savings falling today, the key message is to do nothing unless you have to,” he says. “We are likely to experience a period of volatility in the markets and uncertainty in the wider economy, in these conditions, acting in haste is unlikely to serve well. If you are years from retirement and making regular savings, then just keep going; falls in the market mean buying investments at a lower price.”
The news will be more worrying to savers who are closer to retirement and may not have time to make up significant losses. However, Mr McPhail still urged against making hasty decisions. “If you are close to retirement, then try to avoid selling funds and shares right now. Annuity rates may move in response to changing interest rates, however this is not certain. International and domestic demand for Gilts and Sterling denominated investment grade bonds will influence annuity rates, as will expectations of inflation and to a lesser degree, short-term interest rate movements.”
'Uncertain' housing market after Leave vote Stock markets and pound plunge on 'Black Friday' as Britain votes for Brexit For those investors that have already retired and are drawing an income from their savings, Mr McPhail recommended limiting withdrawals to ensure remaining capital is not eroded further.
He sounds like an expert. Please, get with it: this is the new England - we don't listen to them anymore.
(a) the proportion for men and women voting Brexit are identical
(b) All demographics except for AB voted for Brexit.
I finish by quoting Tony Benn who sadly never lived to see this day.
"Benn memorably observed that this open-ended surrender of our power to govern ourselves was “a coup d’état by a political class who did not believe in popular sovereignty”.
I'm not ready yet Sean F. I am so angry and annoyed as you can see. I'm one of those sort of insomniacs who listens to the radio during the night- and last night was just report after report after report after report of the implications of Brexit- none of them good. Each one like being prodded with a cattle prod (rather than help me sleep)
The UK now, today is in a absolute mess...it was entirely self inflicted, and more than that predicted.
Oh dear the chaos continues. -The Mayor of Calais is reconsidering the border controls- saying the French should no longer hold the refugees at Calais. Great stuff- we will move the Jungle to the racist Kent coast. Well Cameron did warn us -The six founding members of EU are meeting to decide to terms of our exit- Britain at the margins, a place we will have to get used to for many years to come. The first summit meeting we have not been invited to since 1975. Excellent- the UK is insignificant and ignored- a place we remember well from our time as the sick man of Europe before joining the EU -Our credit rating has been dropped to negative (on par with Spain)- the worst it has ever been by Moody's- let me remember something, oh yes we were warned about this one too by the Experts -The UK plunged into a constitutional crisis with the rise of Scottish and Irish nationalism- oh yes, didn't Cameron remind us of that one too? -Dominic Grieve saying the country is suffering an economic meltdown- now this is merely a year after we had Osborne's Long Term Economic Plan repeated ad nauseum at the 2015 election -Indian business leaders reviewing long term investment in the UK because of access to single market. The commonwealth argument- why would external investors from our great commonwealth invest in a market that only has access to 60m people?
Many people regretting now the fact that they voted leave- too late now suckers
Still we've taken back control. Right. We've taken back control to be a despised, ignored, insignificant, broken up, poorer little country faced to deal with some of the greatest global challenges- the migrant crisis per instance- alone. It wasn't like we were not warned.
Well fucking done Brexit.
If you think North Down and East Belfast are about to vote to leave the UK, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.
@PickardJE: "Farage dismissed half the country as indecent, ruling: 'This is a victory for ordinary people, for decent people.'" https://t.co/1SUqbWQy1R
Meanwhile the greater number of people 52.9% (BBC result) are dismissed as bigoted little Englanders.
I voted remain but surely now is the time to try to re-unite the 70+% who are pretty decent and not bigoted. We had a vote, there is a result now we have to move on.
I think the Tories need to get on with this leadership contest. As much as I think it's funny to hear the EU getting upset with us, I think we should have a new PM within a month. This is no longer about selecting a new leader of the Tory Party to fight the 2020 election. This is about selecting our next PM who will negotiate our exit from the EU.
I agree - many if us are directly affected and we'd like the uncertainty ended asap.
I am not particularly affected, and would like the country to take a pause for breath before negotiating, and it would be useful for the rEU to do the same. It is possible that economic and geo-political concerns will not allow us that luxury , but we should at least try. A bit of sobriety and preparation on the part of the negotiators would be a good thing. The consequences of a rushed negotiation would have to be lived for a long time.
A EEA arrangement with continued freedom of movement would be my preferred option at present, though the anti-migration people would disagree. I would not like to see the UK break up, and this sort of deal may be palatable to the Scots.
The EU has played the traditional scapegoat role for right wingers for 20 years. Wonder who or what is going to step into that role when all is not peachy.
I hopeful the leaders of the Leave Campaign will be the new scapegoat.
No wonder Johnson and Gove looked yesterday that they had shit their pants. Farage is too fucking stupid to understand the implications of the Brexit nihilism.
The best result for Brexit would have been a narrow win for leave. Then they could have carried on as before, carping from the sidelines. With Brexit the lunatics have been given the keys to the asylum.
It sounds to me like it's going to require hard work and concentration. Let's hope the Tories get a leader capable of that for long, sustained periods.
Boris's job will be to oversee the process on the rUK's behalf. It's for the Scots to decide. Would there even be much of a contest?
Ruth has already come out and re-stated her absolute objection to another referendum. However, Adam Tomkins on Scotland Tonight was rather muted (he's usually a very hardcore BritNat even calling his blog "Notes from North Britain").
So there will be a rag tag of Scottish Tories, maybe the odd SLabber but I think the bulk of SLab will be going Yes this time or at least keeping a low profile. I think the newspapers are more Yes now too.
BBC is the hardest to call, it's had some changes in its news staff but I'm not up to date on which way this has swung things.
The tone of Kirstie Warks piece on Newsnight is that it's game over; Scotland is gone. We'll miss them, they may even miss us, but it's time to split as amicably and as quickly as possible.
Kirsty Wark is one of the high heid yins of the Labour mafia in Scotland. If she's going there that would be very interesting. I've seen others, McLeish I mentioned earlier but also social rights lawyer Mike Dailly and other inner circle non-politician SLabbers all seem to be making pro-Yes noises.
A big part of the No camapign was that Scotland wasn't any different from England.
Slabbers were convinced the Remain vote was going to be only a little bit higher in Scotland and that it was going to be a comfortable Remain vote nationally.
This entire foundational concept has just been shattered.
It's interesting to see Brexit politicians who have for years revelled in an insurgent role, immediately flip into exactly the same sort of slippery customer when they're called upon to deliver. Hannan was particularly bad.
The £350m will haunt Boris to his political grave.
And Gove's career will be sunk by "don't listen to experts". Imagine him as Chancellor. The OBR forecasts [drowned out by shouts of Experts from a sedentary position]
The referendum question was very clear, the turnout high and the result not close. No hope of the result being ignored in my view.
This is it. 54 / 46 in England is not close & finding a handful of people who say I want to.change my vote always happens. Remember all.the nonsense after the GE with the lefties screaming the Tories didn't really win because they didn't get a.majority of votes cast & all those that didn't vote.
If it was 49.9 vs 50.1 either way I can see some merit, but England & Wales spoke decisively.
I think it's good that the old gits saved the naïve and inexperienced from themselves.
When you see a child setting off to cross the road for the first time, it's nice to have parents to pull him back from the edge of the pavement. "No, dear, that's bad for you." They have to learn but you have to do it in small stages.
Just a taste of the Remainers' sneering attitude to anyone who disagrees with them.
Just a moment. Isn't it the case that the youngsters mainly voted Remain and the oldsters mainly voted Leave (and prevailed) ? So there's a typo in your last sentence, just before 'sneering'. It should read Leaver's not Remainers.
@MartineBBC: On #BBCPapers, @toadmeister says #Brexit NOT done deal: more likely EU ldrs will offer UK associate membership to be put to 2nd referendum
duh
you spent weeks ridiculing those of us who said that was the likely outcome.
The EU has played the traditional scapegoat role for right wingers for 20 years. Wonder who or what is going to step into that role when all is not peachy.
I hopeful the leaders of the Leave Campaign will be the new scapegoat.
No wonder Johnson and Gove looked yesterday that they had shit their pants. Farage is too fucking stupid to understand the implications of the Brexit nihilism.
The best result for Brexit would have been a narrow win for leave. Then they could have carried on as before, carping from the sidelines. With Brexit the lunatics have been given the keys to the asylum.
(a) the proportion for men and women voting Brexit are identical
(b) All demographics except for AB voted for Brexit.
I finish by quoting Tony Benn who sadly never lived to see this day.
“It’s going to be one hell of a struggle,” says Benn. “The national liberation struggle that we’re involved in. “It is a struggle against international and US imperialism and international capitalism. It’s on the scale of the task which faced the Tolpuddle Martyrs. It is about the right to govern ourselves.”
By way of example, Benn asks: “How can it be, as it is under EU rules, illegal for us to elect a government that reverses privatisation?”
He warns that the cornerstones of British democracy have been destroyed, saying: “I was brought up by my dad, who was an old parliamentarian, to believe that the three principles of parliamentary democracy were that you controlled the purse, the sword and that no parliament could bind its successor.
“Every one of these principles has been breached. We don’t control the purse — that is controlled internationally. We don’t control the sword — that is controlled by Washington — and we are living today in an economy under siege from big business and the IMF.”
Tony Blair is prepared to sign a European constitution which would sign away the legal powers of parliaments that we have elected. Our democracy has been taken away.”
I tell you what, Brexiters quoting Benn is nauseating quite frankly. The only people cheering on Brexit are the Le Pen's, and her fellow band of facists on the continent.
The other prediction from Europe that Brexit will free the continent from the cloak of the EU. Britain's plunge into chaos and nihilism is the biggest shot in the arm the EU has had since it's inception. Euroscepticism will be all but obliterated on the continent.
Juncker comments since the vote are rather reinforcing the negative view people have of our former EU overlords.
The Germans seem to be the only ones acting at all sensibly. Keeping their heads mostly down, their version of the CBI coming out quickly to confirm they want a rapid trade agreement.
Junker and others are more like huffy teenagers "Well we never liked you anyway - so there"
So Farage thinks (now the campaign is safely over) that the £350 million a day claim was a mistake. Daniel Hannan says actually immigrants will still come in to take jobs just as much as before. We just need a Leave leader to admit Turkey isn't joining the EU and, bingo, it's full house: All our claims were false, but enjoy the post-Brexit dawn.
BTW when will Boris Johnson go on TV to apologise for the Brexit recession, as he said he would do? Or will he pretend like Jacob Rees-Mogg that it is merely a coincidence?
@MartineBBC: On #BBCPapers, @toadmeister says #Brexit NOT done deal: more likely EU ldrs will offer UK associate membership to be put to 2nd referendum
No second referendum. The EU leaders will want this ended ASAP.
Another referendum in the UK keeps the EU referendum notion in media across EU member states. Brexit has already pushed referendums into the public debate in Holland and France. Brexit 2 would risk more.
lol.
this is what taking back control looks like. It;s not what their timetable is, it's what ours is.
If Juncker is in a hurry, we should slow things right down
Oh dear the chaos continues. -The Mayor of Calais is reconsidering the border controls- saying the French should no longer hold the refugees at Calais. Great stuff- we will move the Jungle to the racist Kent coast. Well Cameron did warn us -The six founding members of EU are meeting to decide to terms of our exit- Britain at the margins, a place we will have to get used to for many years to come. The first summit meeting we have not been invited to since 1975. Excellent- the UK is insignificant and ignored- a place we remember well from our time as the sick man of Europe before joining the EU -Our credit rating has been dropped to negative (on par with Spain)- the worst it has ever been by Moody's- let me remember something, oh yes we were warned about this one too by the Experts -The UK plunged into a constitutional crisis with the rise of Scottish and Irish nationalism- oh yes, didn't Cameron remind us of that one too? -Dominic Grieve saying the country is suffering an economic meltdown- now this is merely a year after we had Osborne's Long Term Economic Plan repeated ad nauseum at the 2015 election -Indian business leaders reviewing long term investment in the UK because of access to single market. The commonwealth argument- why would external investors from our great commonwealth invest in a market that only has access to 60m people?
Many people regretting now the fact that they voted leave- too late now suckers
Still we've taken back control. Right. We've taken back control to be a despised, ignored, insignificant, broken up, poorer little country faced to deal with some of the greatest global challenges- the migrant crisis per instance- alone. It wasn't like we were not warned.
I think the Tories need to get on with this leadership contest. As much as I think it's funny to hear the EU getting upset with us, I think we should have a new PM within a month. This is no longer about selecting a new leader of the Tory Party to fight the 2020 election. This is about selecting our next PM who will negotiate our exit from the EU.
I agree - many if us are directly affected and we'd like the uncertainty ended asap.
I am not particularly affected, and would like the country to take a pause for breath before negotiating, and it would be useful for the rEU to do the same. It is possible that economic and geo-political concerns will not allow us that luxury , but we should at least try. A bit of sobriety and preparation on the part of the negotiators would be a good thing. The consequences of a rushed negotiation would have to be lived for a long time.
A EEA arrangement with continued freedom of movement would be my preferred option at present, though the anti-migration people would disagree. I would not like to see the UK break up, and this sort of deal may be palatable to the Scots.
Mine too - it does seem odd though that after all this time this and other options have not already been drafted, thought through and prepared by those likeliest to be involved in doing the deal on both sides. Excessive delay is not good for either side economically.
It's interesting to see Brexit politicians who have for years revelled in an insurgent role, immediately flip into exactly the same sort of slippery customer when they're called upon to deliver. Hannan was particularly bad.
Juncker comments since the vote are rather reinforcing the negative view people have of our former EU overlords.
The Germans seem to be the only ones acting at all sensibly. Keeping their heads mostly down, their version of the CBI coming out quickly to confirm they want a rapid trade agreement.
Junker and others are more like huffy teenagers "Well we never liked you anyway - so there"
"We din't have no tele's or shoes or bedclothes We made us own fun in them days Do you know when i were a lad you could get a Tram down into't town Buy 3 new suits n an overcoat, 4 new pair of good boots Goo n see George Formby at Palace Theatre , Get Blind Drunk, Have some Steak n Chips, Bunch of bananas n 3 stone of monkey Nuts And still have change out on a farthing..
We did lots of things in them days They haven't got today Rickets, Diptheria, Hitler, and By we did look well going to school with no backsides in us trousers n All us little heads painted Purple cause we had Ringworm.
@ianbirrell: Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration
Juncker comments since the vote are rather reinforcing the negative view people have of our former EU overlords.
The Germans seem to be the only ones acting at all sensibly. Keeping their heads mostly down, their version of the CBI coming out quickly to confirm they want a rapid trade agreement.
Junker and others are more like huffy teenagers "Well we never liked you anyway - so there"
Luckily the Germans are the ones who pull the strings. They are being sensible because a) it's the right thing to do and b) unlike the unelected EU overlords, German government know they have lots of German companies like Bosch that need people to act like grown ups.
"Mass immigration was obviously a huge influence on the vote. ‘Sovereignty’ was always an abstract, but the visible loss of control of our national borders revealed to millions that it is in fact a tangible thing which affects their lives. Even so, do not underestimate the role played by generalised discontent about everything from absurdly high housing costs, unchecked crime and disorder, the transformation of education into a privilege for the rich and influential, diminishing wages, the impossibility of maintaining standards of living without getting into debt, overloaded health services and miserable opportunities for the young."
"The referendum achieved, by a dangerous short cut, something I have been hoping for and arguing for and seeking for many years – an alliance between the social conservatives trapped and ignored in a liberal Tory Party and the social conservatives trapped in a liberal Labour Party. I had long believed (since the isolated example of a November 2004 referendum on regional government in the North-East) such a combination would throw the ghastly forces of Blairism into the sea."
And now the new, socially conservative alliance must deliver: 1. Higher public spending, including £350 million more a week on the NHS. 2. Higher wages. 3. More and better jobs. 4. Cheaper housing. 5. A series of grade A trade deals. 6. Substantial reductions in immigration. 7. Seamless withdrawal from the EU. The country is on tenterhooks, just waiting for this golden future to begin.
"Mass immigration was obviously a huge influence on the vote. ‘Sovereignty’ was always an abstract, but the visible loss of control of our national borders revealed to millions that it is in fact a tangible thing which affects their lives. Even so, do not underestimate the role played by generalised discontent about everything from absurdly high housing costs, unchecked crime and disorder, the transformation of education into a privilege for the rich and influential, diminishing wages, the impossibility of maintaining standards of living without getting into debt, overloaded health services and miserable opportunities for the young."
"The referendum achieved, by a dangerous short cut, something I have been hoping for and arguing for and seeking for many years – an alliance between the social conservatives trapped and ignored in a liberal Tory Party and the social conservatives trapped in a liberal Labour Party. I had long believed (since the isolated example of a November 2004 referendum on regional government in the North-East) such a combination would throw the ghastly forces of Blairism into the sea."
And now the new, socially conservative alliance must deliver: 1. Higher public spending, including £350 million more a week on the NHS. 2. Higher wages. 3. More and better jobs. 4. Cheaper housing. 5. A series of grade A trade deals. 6. Substantial reductions in immigration. 7. Seamless withdrawal from the EU. The country is on tenterhooks, just waiting for this golden future to begin.
Point 4 is underway. Bridging loan secondary market is somewhat... illiquid anyhow.
It's funny really- post the 2015 election- pbCOM became a right wing club, deserted by it's left and centre posters. In it's early days in 2004 it was quite left.
But after Brexit, a vote far more shocking to us centrists and lefties than 2015, we are out in force and posting. As the dire implications and repercussions come even more stark....I wonder how many Brexiters will be brave enough to stick around and make their point.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
I tell you what, Brexiters quoting Benn is nauseating quite frankly. The only people cheering on Brexit are the Le Pen's, and her fellow band of facists on the continent.
It's interesting to see Brexit politicians who have for years revelled in an insurgent role, immediately flip into exactly the same sort of slippery customer when they're called upon to deliver. Hannan was particularly bad.
They made a number of promises and will be judged against them. Leave won it all and own it all.
"Mass immigration was obviously a huge influence on the vote. ‘Sovereignty’ was always an abstract, but the visible loss of control of our national borders revealed to millions that it is in fact a tangible thing which affects their lives. Even so, do not underestimate the role played by generalised discontent about everything from absurdly high housing costs, unchecked crime and disorder, the transformation of education into a privilege for the rich and influential, diminishing wages, the impossibility of maintaining standards of living without getting into debt, overloaded health services and miserable opportunities for the young."
"The referendum achieved, by a dangerous short cut, something I have been hoping for and arguing for and seeking for many years – an alliance between the social conservatives trapped and ignored in a liberal Tory Party and the social conservatives trapped in a liberal Labour Party. I had long believed (since the isolated example of a November 2004 referendum on regional government in the North-East) such a combination would throw the ghastly forces of Blairism into the sea."
And now the new, socially conservative alliance must deliver: 1. Higher public spending, including £350 million more a week on the NHS. 2. Higher wages. 3. More and better jobs. 4. Cheaper housing. 5. A series of grade A trade deals. 6. Substantial reductions in immigration. 7. Seamless withdrawal from the EU. The country is on tenterhooks, just waiting for this golden future to begin.
"Mass immigration was obviously a huge influence on the vote. ‘Sovereignty’ was always an abstract, but the visible loss of control of our national borders revealed to millions that it is in fact a tangible thing which affects their lives. Even so, do not underestimate the role played by generalised discontent about everything from absurdly high housing costs, unchecked crime and disorder, the transformation of education into a privilege for the rich and influential, diminishing wages, the impossibility of maintaining standards of living without getting into debt, overloaded health services and miserable opportunities for the young."
"The referendum achieved, by a dangerous short cut, something I have been hoping for and arguing for and seeking for many years – an alliance between the social conservatives trapped and ignored in a liberal Tory Party and the social conservatives trapped in a liberal Labour Party. I had long believed (since the isolated example of a November 2004 referendum on regional government in the North-East) such a combination would throw the ghastly forces of Blairism into the sea."
And now the new, socially conservative alliance must deliver: 1. Higher public spending, including £350 million more a week on the NHS. 2. Higher wages. 3. More and better jobs. 4. Cheaper housing. 5. A series of grade A trade deals. 6. Substantial reductions in immigration. 7. Seamless withdrawal from the EU. The country is on tenterhooks, just waiting for this golden future to begin.
@ianbirrell: Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration
Oh dear the chaos continues. -The Mayor of Calais is reconsidering the border controls- saying the French should no longer hold the refugees at Calais. Great stuff- we will move the Jungle to the racist Kent coast. Well Cameron did warn us -The six founding members of EU are meeting to decide to terms of our exit- Britain at the margins, a place we will have to get used to for many years to come. The first summit meeting we have not been invited to since 1975. Excellent- the UK is insignificant and ignored- a place we remember well from our time as the sick man of Europe before joining the EU -Our credit rating has been dropped to negative (on par with Spain)- the worst it has ever been by Moody's- let me remember something, oh yes we were warned about this one too by the Experts -The UK plunged into a constitutional crisis with the rise of Scottish and Irish nationalism- oh yes, didn't Cameron remind us of that one too? -Dominic Grieve saying the country is suffering an economic meltdown- now this is merely a year after we had Osborne's Long Term Economic Plan repeated ad nauseum at the 2015 election -Indian business leaders reviewing long term investment in the UK because of access to single market. The commonwealth argument- why would external investors from our great commonwealth invest in a market that only has access to 60m people?
Many people regretting now the fact that they voted leave- too late now suckers
Still we've taken back control. Right. We've taken back control to be a despised, ignored, insignificant, broken up, poorer little country faced to deal with some of the greatest global challenges- the migrant crisis per instance- alone. It wasn't like we were not warned.
It's funny really- post the 2015 election- pbCOM became a right wing club, deserted by it's left and centre posters. In it's early days in 2004 it was quite left.
But after Brexit, a vote far more shocking to us centrists and lefties than 2015, we are out in force and posting. As the dire implications and repercussions come even more stark....I wonder how many Brexiters will be brave enough to stick around and make their point.
Too busy munching popcorn and laughing to post much so were lurking as we scoff the corn.
It's interesting to see Brexit politicians who have for years revelled in an insurgent role, immediately flip into exactly the same sort of slippery customer when they're called upon to deliver. Hannan was particularly bad.
So Farage thinks (now the campaign is safely over) that the £350 million a day claim was a mistake. Daniel Hannan says actually immigrants will still come in to take jobs just as much as before. We just need a Leave leader to admit Turkey isn't joining the EU and, bingo, it's full house: All our claims were false, but enjoy the post-Brexit dawn.
BTW when will Boris Johnson go on TV to apologise for the Brexit recession, as he said he would do? Or will he pretend like Jacob Rees-Mogg that it is merely a coincidence?
It's interesting to see Brexit politicians who have for years revelled in an insurgent role, immediately flip into exactly the same sort of slippery customer when they're called upon to deliver. Hannan was particularly bad.
They made a number of promises and will be judged against them. Leave won it all and own it all.
But they aren't standing for election as a party, so like the coalition various parties can disown bits.
The whole campaign was dominated by bollocks on both sides. Made GE promises look like gospel truth.
Juncker comments since the vote are rather reinforcing the negative view people have of our former EU overlords.
The Germans seem to be the only ones acting at all sensibly. Keeping their heads mostly down, their version of the CBI coming out quickly to confirm they want a rapid trade agreement.
Junker and others are more like huffy teenagers "Well we never liked you anyway - so there"
The longer we hang around the more it embarasses Juncker as the man who saw the EU go backwards.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
UKIP's main challenge is that its leadership and membership is on the right economically and fiscally. To move into and takeover Labour areas that has to change and the change has to be convincing. I just can't see that happening. And that's from someone who called this result ten weeks ago ;-)
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
I agree with your analysis completely. But the solution- Brexit. It's like having a headache and trying to cure it by whacking a frying pan on your head.
The spine less wonders like Burnham...we used to hear this stuff all the time with brown & miliband and when push.came to shove one charged over the cliff to realise all the rest had chickened out.
Juncker comments since the vote are rather reinforcing the negative view people have of our former EU overlords.
The Germans seem to be the only ones acting at all sensibly. Keeping their heads mostly down, their version of the CBI coming out quickly to confirm they want a rapid trade agreement.
Junker and others are more like huffy teenagers "Well we never liked you anyway - so there"
The longer we hang around the more it embarasses Juncker as the man who saw the EU go backwards.
We'll probably remain in the EU longer than Juncker does.
So Farage thinks (now the campaign is safely over) that the £350 million a day claim was a mistake. Daniel Hannan says actually immigrants will still come in to take jobs just as much as before. We just need a Leave leader to admit Turkey isn't joining the EU and, bingo, it's full house: All our claims were false, but enjoy the post-Brexit dawn.
BTW when will Boris Johnson go on TV to apologise for the Brexit recession, as he said he would do? Or will he pretend like Jacob Rees-Mogg that it is merely a coincidence?
Recession already? My, that was quick...
Agree, a recession is 2 quarters of negative groowth, so we'll need to wait. Now, how about answering the points on NHS, Immigration and Turkey.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
Thats exactly what i was trying to say the other day - but you said it better
As we now know, sovereignty and identity trump economics. Experts can be safely ignored.
I'd recommend actually reading the article, which was written by a widely-admired commentator who up to now has been very much on the unionist side of the argument in Scotland.
@ianbirrell: Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration
Oh dear the chaos continues. -The Mayor of Calais is reconsidering the border controls- saying the French should no longer hold the refugees at Calais. Great stuff- we will move the Jungle to the racist Kent coast. Well Cameron did warn us -The six founding members of EU are meeting to decide to terms of our exit- Britain at the margins, a place we will have to get used to for many years to come. The first summit meeting we have not been invited to since 1975. Excellent- the UK is insignificant and ignored- a place we remember well from our time as the sick man of Europe before joining the EU -Our credit rating has been dropped to negative (on par with Spain)- the worst it has ever been by Moody's- let me remember something, oh yes we were warned about this one too by the Experts -The UK plunged into a constitutional crisis with the rise of Scottish and Irish nationalism- oh yes, didn't Cameron remind us of that one too? -Dominic Grieve saying the country is suffering an economic meltdown- now this is merely a year after we had Osborne's Long Term Economic Plan repeated ad nauseum at the 2015 election -Indian business leaders reviewing long term investment in the UK because of access to single market. The commonwealth argument- why would external investors from our great commonwealth invest in a market that only has access to 60m people?
Many people regretting now the fact that they voted leave- too late now suckers
1. The French ambassador has said the UK-France bilateral deal over migrants remains unchanged. The mayor of Calais is a nobody. 2. The six original countries are meeting to shaft the Eastern Europeans, and hope to present a deal which essentially keeps us in. 3. Clueless rambling. In reality UK gilt yields dropped about 20% across the curve, that's not good, but not for the reason you think. However, UK debt carries a AAA premium as shown by the surge in demand. 4. No proposal has come forward from Holyrood or Stormont, as of now it is nationalist bellyaching. Let's see what they come up with before judging it. 5. Dominic Greive, the EUphile federalist making things up again? Are you also going to tell me bears shit in the woods. 6. Evidence please, just like that Morgan Stanley story was bullshit, any story which says anything about investment or relocation right now should be treated with a massive dose of scepticism, we don't yet know what our arrangement will be with the EU, and we don't know how contagious Brexit will be. The EU just lost its second largest economy and 18% of its total GDP, that's a massive change for them, if Sweden (3%) and Denmark (2%) leave that's almost a quarter of the market gone. That's not accounting for any big hits like France or the Netherlands.
Clueless as ever, why not actually take the time to think about what you're writing instead regurgitating the rubbish posted on facebook by idiots.
It's interesting to see Brexit politicians who have for years revelled in an insurgent role, immediately flip into exactly the same sort of slippery customer when they're called upon to deliver. Hannan was particularly bad.
They made a number of promises and will be judged against them. Leave won it all and own it all.
Boris and Gove owe us a weekly hospital and immigration in the 10,000s. They were called out repeatedly on 350M and how much control they could actually offer. But they stood by it. Good luck.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
Thats exactly what i was trying to say the other day - but you said it better
@ianbirrell: Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration
You're welcome...
they learnt it from Osborne
Oh, so that's alright then?
our almost perfect chancellor
Point missed again, or was it deliberately evaded? If I accept your point and agree that Osborne is crap, will you address this: "Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration"
The absolute irony on Sky News paper review. Tim Montgomery 'I think we need to be re-assured what Mark Carney, the Bank of England Governor, is saying in making £250 billion pounds of liquidity available so the banking system continues to work'. I thought all the experts were wrong.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
UKIP's main challenge is that its leadership and membership is on the right economically and fiscally. To move into and takeover Labour areas that has to change and the change has to be convincing. I just can't see that happening. And that's from someone who called this result ten weeks ago ;-)
Yes, SO, you did indeed.
I agree that Ukip and Farage are not correctly positioned to gain and without the EU issue they may prove even less so. Who can fill the gap? I am really not sure. The Tories were more likely to do so with the posh boys of Cameron and Osborne than their likely replacements, Corbyn has conclusively demonstrated his total irrelevance, we are in danger of forgetting the Lib Dems even exist, the disconnect between our politics and our problems have not been wider in my lifetime.
So Farage thinks (now the campaign is safely over) that the £350 million a day claim was a mistake. Daniel Hannan says actually immigrants will still come in to take jobs just as much as before. We just need a Leave leader to admit Turkey isn't joining the EU and, bingo, it's full house: All our claims were false, but enjoy the post-Brexit dawn.
BTW when will Boris Johnson go on TV to apologise for the Brexit recession, as he said he would do? Or will he pretend like Jacob Rees-Mogg that it is merely a coincidence?
Recession already? My, that was quick...
Agree, a recession is 2 quarters of negative groowth, so we'll need to wait. Now, how about answering the points on NHS, Immigration and Turkey.
To be fair, I think they can keep the promise on Turkey. I really don't think Turkish citizens are going to have the automatic right to live in England anytime soon. On the other hand, I would hope that Heidi Alexander starts progress chasing that £350 million a week for the NHS pretty quickly.
The spine less wonders like Burnham...we used to hear this stuff all the time with brown & miliband and when push.came to shove one charged over the cliff to realise all the rest had chickened out.
One of the more worrying features of this result is that Labour still don't get just how far they have drifted from their voters. The really striking thing about the results is that many Conservative areas voted remain, but outside London, Bristol, Manchester/Liverpool, West Yorkshire and Newcastle the Labour vote was absolutely rock-solid for leave. Surbiton, yesterday, was trying to argue against that and today I read that Corbyn was somehow to blame for this result by not mobilising Labour voters. Yet to take only the most stunning example I have noticed, Stoke-on-Trent (which has three Labour MPs who commanded just under 40% of all votes in the city last year on a 53% turnout) voted leave by 69.4% to 30.6% on a 65% turnout.
Now if Labour believe that that was a sign that their voters were not mobilised, they should be block prosecuted for possession of illegal substances. True, only 20% of all eligible voters supported them last year on these figures, and a roughly similar figure voted remain. However, we also know that it is likely to be poorer voters who voted out, and younger, wealthier voters (e.g. students at Staffordshire University, or who commute to nearby Keele) who voted in. Who do poorer voters vote for (when they vote, which for 18 years they haven't been doing in very large numbers)? Oh yes, the Labour party. The irony is that Labour's vote has finally been mobilised, only to give the leadership the most colossal kick in the crotch.
Many years ago, a friend of mine from Port Talbot, a socialist, told me he hated the EU because as a good socialist he stood up for 'our workers, not a bunch of shitty Eastern Europeans' (he subsequently married a Slovenian). Labour voters wanted out because they are the ones who have felt the fewest benefits from the EU. They are the ones who still struggle for housing, and still get low-paid jobs, and have a hard fight to get halfway decent healthcare and education when most of them are least well-equipped to navigate the labyrinthine minds and processes of the civil servants. Rightly or wrongly, mass migration is blamed for that, although we shouldn't forget either that many of them really do blame the EU for the destruction of the skilled manual jobs that paid good wages that gave them a decent life (Port Talbot explains the Valleys). This was not irrationality, or economic suicide. It was a perfectly reasonable study of the benefits and costs of EU membership to them personally. They believe it benefits bankers and lawyers, not steelworkers and potters.
As much as I dislike the political right I'm not having them take all the blame for us leaving the EU. British Europhiles need to take a long hard look at themselves. Whatever you think of the federalist elites on the continent at least they actually believe in the European Union as it is. Very few of the most prominent Europhiles in Britain could that be said of. The approach over a generation has been to get ourselves on the inside in order to change it. Almost no major politician I can think of has said we want to be inside because we share a great deal in common with these people. The argument instead is that these people happen to be our neighbours, we do a lot of business with them and so even if we don't really have anything in common with them we ought to try and get along for economic reasons. The pretence of a European demos isn't even entertained.
In short the British Europhile project has simply seen EU membership as part and parcel of globalisation. If we're going to be an outward looking free trading nation it makes sense to be politically engaged with our nearest neighbours. Well the parts of the country that feel left behind by the modern economy have revolted. I think they are wrong but I don't really blame them for it. There is too of course the issue of democracy.
@ianbirrell: Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration
You're welcome...
they learnt it from Osborne
Oh, so that's alright then?
our almost perfect chancellor
Point missed again, or was it deliberately evaded? If I accept your point and agree that Osborne is crap, will you address this: "Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration"
That depends on your timescale, it will take a week or so for the markets to re adjust before you know where any of that starts.
All we know atm is that the worst of the Remain scaremongering hasnt happened.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
I don't disagree with the analysis, just Brexit as a solution to the ills of globalisation
You would find the same sentiments expressed in any developed country either in or out of the EU. Trumpism demonstrates that economic sovereignty cannot buck the markets.
Sorry if these points have already been made, I've not had a chance to catch up on the comments yet.
1. The news channels found it easy to visit hipster Remain areas and working class Leave areas yesterday. What they didn't do was find Tory areas that were Remain or Leave. Understanding where that divide truly lies in the Tory vote is important especially to how different constituencies will respond to the new PM come 2020.
2. Who on the Labour Remain side really covered themselves in glory during the campaign. It is easy to point the finger at Corbyn, who wasn't really committed anyway, but which of the true euro-enthusiasts can really say they gave it 100%?
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
Thats exactly what i was trying to say the other day - but you said it better
Its a curious feature of referenda Charles that I always seem to come out of them with a more left wing view of the world than I went into them. The same happened with Sindy. I think it is because they involve more people than an election where 70% of the seats can be predicted in advance and all the focus is on small segments of the population.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
UKIP's main challenge is that its leadership and membership is on the right economically and fiscally. To move into and takeover Labour areas that has to change and the change has to be convincing. I just can't see that happening. And that's from someone who called this result ten weeks ago ;-)
Yes, SO, you did indeed.
I agree that Ukip and Farage are not correctly positioned to gain and without the EU issue they may prove even less so. Who can fill the gap? I am really not sure. The Tories were more likely to do so with the posh boys of Cameron and Osborne than their likely replacements, Corbyn has conclusively demonstrated his total irrelevance, we are in danger of forgetting the Lib Dems even exist, the disconnect between our politics and our problems have not been wider in my lifetime.
Yes - and the promises the next PM and Chancellor made during the referendum campaign are only going to exacerbate that. We have a very serious problem developing in this country and no-one seems capable of addressing it.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
I was thinking about this last night, when it became plain how many on the Remain side still didn't get it.
The airwaves are full of astonished metropolitan/AB types who simply can't believe it. Their tone in particular is very telling - the almost reflexive insulting descriptions. Labour spent 5yrs lying to themselves that they didn't spend too much, and immigration wasn't an issue. And got walloped on the arse by the electorate.
How long will some Remainers continue to deny that over 17m said Out. That's more than the entire In vote in 1975. And they meant it. They weren't more stupid - they made a rational choice based on their values and their lives.
Whilst I can fully appreciated that some are upset by not getting their way - it'll be interesting to see if/when they begin to understand why they lost.
Sorry if these points have already been made, I've not had a chance to catch up on the comments yet.
1. The news channels found it easy to visit hipster Remain areas and working class Leave areas yesterday. What they didn't do was find Tory areas that were Remain or Leave. Understanding where that divide truly lies in the Tory vote is important especially to how different constituencies will respond to the new PM come 2020.
2. Who on the Labour Remain side really covered themselves in glory during the campaign. It is easy to point the finger at Corbyn, who wasn't really committed anyway, but which of the true euro-enthusiasts can really say they gave it 100%?
Khan, Kinnock, Benn, Bradshaw, Harman. Even Mcdonnell... Could go on.
@AlistairMeeks - one thought on your comments about London subsidising the rest of us. You do realise that if London paid the full economic costs of the goods and services it is provided by the rest of the country, particularly transport, water, sewage disposal, housing and above all food, the cost of living in London would just about double? Bread and milk, to take only the most obvious ones, are sold at a huge loss to the producer. It's not quite as simple as 'the City pays for everything'. We also have lower standards of services than you do.
I seem to remember we've argued about this once before, in the days when, ironically, I posted under my own name and you were still Antifrank. I don't recall then that you had any answers to the points I made about subsidies being the other way around.
I have always thought London should be treated differently from England as a whole, because of its unusual nature. But I have also always thought it should not be able to hold England to ransom the way it consistently has done down the centuries ever since its coup to install the House of York in 1461.
The reason I called this for Leave on Wednesday (come on, I haven't mentioned that since yesterday) is very well articulated in this thread which, despite some sniping, has made this a genuinely fascinating thread.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
Thats exactly what i was trying to say the other day - but you said it better
That is exactly the real question. More money for the better off to encourage them to work harder and less for the less well off to, well, make them work harder, we cannot go on like this.
A thought on something which was rarely if ever considered amongst the claims about "the EU making 60% of our laws etc, and, potentially an under the radar negative consequence of leaving. What is missed is that being in the EU provided the Parliamentary time to do the boring, unspectacular stuff that in many cases can have a real long term positive effect, mainly in the environmental areas. Clean beaches, clean rivers etc etc. When Leavers stated "well we could do all the good bits ourselves", the response should be not just that we wouldn't but actually that we couldn't. There just isn't the time, and governments will always find other priorities except in the most extreme situations.
Nick P mentioned that a huge amount of these "EU laws" was in areas of standardisation often measures that came via the WTO. How much easier to have the EU Parliament spend the time debating and implementing the changes brought into effect via secondary legislation, that having to put it all in Primary legislation.
I suppose one could argue that part of the problem is that the EU has already implemented much of the "good" stuff that there is to do and the problem was that they were off in search of new, less palatable challenges to fill their time, but if so it is at least going to be very important that there isn't some sort of "bonfire" of EU regulations that takes us all the way back to square one and being the dirty man of Europe.
One of the more worrying features of this result is that Labour still , West Yorkshire and Newcastle the Labour vote was absolutely rock-solid for leave. Surbiton, yesterday, was trying to argue against that and today I read that Corbyn was somehow to blame for this result by not mobilising Labour voters. Yet to take only the most stunning example I have noticed, Stoke-on-Trent (which has three Labour MPs who commanded just under 40% of all votes in the city last year on a 53% turnout) voted leave by 69.4% to 30.6% on a 65% turnout.
Now if Labour believe that that was a sign that theirters (e.g. students at Staffordshire University, or who commute to nearby Keele) who voted in. Who do poorer voters vote for (when they vote, which for 18 years they haven't been doing in very large numbers)? Oh yes, the Labour party. The irony is that Labour's vote has finally been mobilised, only to give the leadership the most colossal kick in the crotch.
Many years ago, a friend of mine from Port Talbot, a socialist, told me he hated the EU because as a good socialist he stood up for 'our workers, not a bunch of shitty Eastern Europeans' (he subsequently married a Slovenian). Labour voters wanted out because they are the ones who have felt the fewest benefits from the EU. They are the ones who still struggle for housing, and still get low-paid jobs, and have a hard fight to get halfway decent healthcare and education when most of them are least well-equipped to navigate the labyrinthine minds and processes of the civil servants. Rightly or wrongly, mass migration is blamed for that, although we shouldn't forget either that many of them really do blame the EU for the destruction of the skilled manual jobs that paid good wages that gave them a decent life (Port Talbot explains the Valleys). This was not irrationality, or economic suicide. It was a perfectly reasonable study of the benefits and costs of EU membership to them personally. They believe it benefits bankers and lawyers, not steelworkers and potters.
I agree with you. However, the criticism of Corbyn is not that Labour voters were not mobilised, it is that by failing utterly to put the full weight of the Labour party machine behind the Remain campaign he allowed Leave a free run. Most importantly, that ended up in a victory for a cause that may well do significant harm to the people Labour is supposed to care about. In short, Corbyn failed to lead.
Pensioners weren't intimidated. They just don't like immigrants. You tell me if that defines them as racist? I'd say it was a huge motivation and the prime reason Leave won. You may not agree.
As I've told you before writing waycist doesn't magically make everyone who points out bigotry wrong.. Fortunately it's still so side splittingly funny that doesn't matter though.
My mother was an immigrant, as was my father. My wife is an immigrant as is my brother's wife. So can you do me the decency when addressing us B.O.O.ers and STFU?
Comments
(a) the proportion for men and women voting Brexit are identical
(b) All demographics except for AB voted for Brexit.
I finish by quoting Tony Benn who sadly never lived to see this day.
"Benn memorably observed that this open-ended surrender of our power to govern ourselves was “a coup d’état by a political class who did not believe in popular sovereignty”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/11673377/Enoch-Powell-and-Tony-Benn-were-right-on-Europe-it-was-a-great-deception.html
Now we, the people, have taken back our sovereignty from those ABs who took it away so they could enrich themselves at everyone elses expense.
The UK now, today is in a absolute mess...it was entirely self inflicted, and more than that predicted.
A EEA arrangement with continued freedom of movement would be my preferred option at present, though the anti-migration people would disagree. I would not like to see the UK break up, and this sort of deal may be palatable to the Scots.
https://medium.com/@chrisdeerin/that-sinking-feeling-4559d45e8c0b#.kq3e1mfia
Slabbers were convinced the Remain vote was going to be only a little bit higher in Scotland and that it was going to be a comfortable Remain vote nationally.
This entire foundational concept has just been shattered.
http://gu.com/p/4my78?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard < Even John Mann seems to now recognise the threat to poorer Leave voting areas. Hilarious.
And Gove's career will be sunk by "don't listen to experts". Imagine him as Chancellor. The OBR forecasts [drowned out by shouts of Experts from a sedentary position]
If it was 49.9 vs 50.1 either way I can see some merit, but England & Wales spoke decisively.
Isn't it the case that the youngsters mainly voted Remain and the oldsters mainly voted Leave (and prevailed) ?
So there's a typo in your last sentence, just before 'sneering'. It should read Leaver's not Remainers.
you spent weeks ridiculing those of us who said that was the likely outcome.
now your posting what we told you ages ago
pack it in for the day and enjoy the football
https://twitter.com/vote_leave
The only people cheering on Brexit are the Le Pen's, and her fellow band of facists on the continent.
The other prediction from Europe that Brexit will free the continent from the cloak of the EU. Britain's plunge into chaos and nihilism is the biggest shot in the arm the EU has had since it's inception. Euroscepticism will be all but obliterated on the continent.
Junker and others are more like huffy teenagers "Well we never liked you anyway - so there"
BTW when will Boris Johnson go on TV to apologise for the Brexit recession, as he said he would do? Or will he pretend like Jacob Rees-Mogg that it is merely a coincidence?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/36587535
Anyway, he'll be doing some practice sessions for Haas (taking Gutierrez's seat for those).
this is what taking back control looks like. It;s not what their timetable is, it's what ours is.
If Juncker is in a hurry, we should slow things right down
At least you've progressed from denial to anger
"Young people already had it bad."
"We din't have no tele's or shoes or bedclothes
We made us own fun in them days
Do you know when i were a lad you could get a Tram down into't town
Buy 3 new suits n an overcoat, 4 new pair of good boots
Goo n see George Formby at Palace Theatre ,
Get Blind Drunk,
Have some Steak n Chips, Bunch of bananas n 3 stone of monkey Nuts
And still have change out on a farthing..
We did lots of things in them days
They haven't got today
Rickets, Diptheria, Hitler, and
By we did look well going to school with no backsides in us trousers n
All us little heads painted Purple cause we had Ringworm.
They Dunt Know theyre Born Today!!!!"
1. Higher public spending, including £350 million more a week on the NHS.
2. Higher wages.
3. More and better jobs.
4. Cheaper housing.
5. A series of grade A trade deals.
6. Substantial reductions in immigration.
7. Seamless withdrawal from the EU.
The country is on tenterhooks, just waiting for this golden future to begin.
When is Mr Hollande going to accept the inevitable: France is no longer a global-player and has been subsumed by the EU? Time for a revamped UNSC:
# The United States of America
# China
# The United Kingdom
# Remainian-EU
# Russia.
But after Brexit, a vote far more shocking to us centrists and lefties than 2015, we are out in force and posting. As the dire implications and repercussions come even more stark....I wonder how many Brexiters will be brave enough to stick around and make their point.
Far too many of our population, not quite a majority, just don't feel represented by any of the established parties. They feel alienated by an elite who just don't see their problems, the reductions in real wages, the trend towards the casualization of labour, the lack of opportunities for themselves and their children, the arrogance of the laughingly named public "servants", the closing of the doors of private home ownership, the feeling that life is just getting harder and harder.
What do I, a comfortably well off lawyer know about this? Well, I listened to what people were saying in this campaign, in the phone ins, in the vox pops whenever they were asked. We are treating too many of our fellow citizens like shit and it really has to stop.
Can UKIP channel this? I doubt it but it is possible. They certainly have a better chance than an Islington dominated Labour party which has an entirely different agenda, outlook and set of priorities.
The whole campaign was dominated by bollocks on both sides. Made GE promises look like gospel truth.
Now, how about answering the points on NHS, Immigration and Turkey.
I'd recommend actually reading the article, which was written by a widely-admired commentator who up to now has been very much on the unionist side of the argument in Scotland.
2. The six original countries are meeting to shaft the Eastern Europeans, and hope to present a deal which essentially keeps us in.
3. Clueless rambling. In reality UK gilt yields dropped about 20% across the curve, that's not good, but not for the reason you think. However, UK debt carries a AAA premium as shown by the surge in demand.
4. No proposal has come forward from Holyrood or Stormont, as of now it is nationalist bellyaching. Let's see what they come up with before judging it.
5. Dominic Greive, the EUphile federalist making things up again? Are you also going to tell me bears shit in the woods.
6. Evidence please, just like that Morgan Stanley story was bullshit, any story which says anything about investment or relocation right now should be treated with a massive dose of scepticism, we don't yet know what our arrangement will be with the EU, and we don't know how contagious Brexit will be. The EU just lost its second largest economy and 18% of its total GDP, that's a massive change for them, if Sweden (3%) and Denmark (2%) leave that's almost a quarter of the market gone. That's not accounting for any big hits like France or the Netherlands.
Clueless as ever, why not actually take the time to think about what you're writing instead regurgitating the rubbish posted on facebook by idiots.
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/737525064199856128
If I accept your point and agree that Osborne is crap, will you address this:
"Message this morning from Brexiters: yes, economy will grow slower, shares down, pound falling. And won't keep promises on NHS & immigration"
Cowardly, irrational, frightened wretch of a human being.
As the Conservative Party starts to calm down, its Euro-boil having been lanced, Labour's troubles have been rubbed to the quick....
I agree that Ukip and Farage are not correctly positioned to gain and without the EU issue they may prove even less so. Who can fill the gap? I am really not sure. The Tories were more likely to do so with the posh boys of Cameron and Osborne than their likely replacements, Corbyn has conclusively demonstrated his total irrelevance, we are in danger of forgetting the Lib Dems even exist, the disconnect between our politics and our problems have not been wider in my lifetime.
https://twitter.com/rossfootball/status/746491245208420353
Now if Labour believe that that was a sign that their voters were not mobilised, they should be block prosecuted for possession of illegal substances. True, only 20% of all eligible voters supported them last year on these figures, and a roughly similar figure voted remain. However, we also know that it is likely to be poorer voters who voted out, and younger, wealthier voters (e.g. students at Staffordshire University, or who commute to nearby Keele) who voted in. Who do poorer voters vote for (when they vote, which for 18 years they haven't been doing in very large numbers)? Oh yes, the Labour party. The irony is that Labour's vote has finally been mobilised, only to give the leadership the most colossal kick in the crotch.
Many years ago, a friend of mine from Port Talbot, a socialist, told me he hated the EU because as a good socialist he stood up for 'our workers, not a bunch of shitty Eastern Europeans' (he subsequently married a Slovenian). Labour voters wanted out because they are the ones who have felt the fewest benefits from the EU. They are the ones who still struggle for housing, and still get low-paid jobs, and have a hard fight to get halfway decent healthcare and education when most of them are least well-equipped to navigate the labyrinthine minds and processes of the civil servants. Rightly or wrongly, mass migration is blamed for that, although we shouldn't forget either that many of them really do blame the EU for the destruction of the skilled manual jobs that paid good wages that gave them a decent life (Port Talbot explains the Valleys). This was not irrationality, or economic suicide. It was a perfectly reasonable study of the benefits and costs of EU membership to them personally. They believe it benefits bankers and lawyers, not steelworkers and potters.
In short the British Europhile project has simply seen EU membership as part and parcel of globalisation. If we're going to be an outward looking free trading nation it makes sense to be politically engaged with our nearest neighbours. Well the parts of the country that feel left behind by the modern economy have revolted. I think they are wrong but I don't really blame them for it. There is too of course the issue of democracy.
All we know atm is that the worst of the Remain scaremongering hasnt happened.
You would find the same sentiments expressed in any developed country either in or out of the EU. Trumpism demonstrates that economic sovereignty cannot buck the markets.
1. The news channels found it easy to visit hipster Remain areas and working class Leave areas yesterday. What they didn't do was find Tory areas that were Remain or Leave. Understanding where that divide truly lies in the Tory vote is important especially to how different constituencies will respond to the new PM come 2020.
2. Who on the Labour Remain side really covered themselves in glory during the campaign. It is easy to point the finger at Corbyn, who wasn't really committed anyway, but which of the true euro-enthusiasts can really say they gave it 100%?
he was called Gordon Brown
Osborne pursued his policies
The airwaves are full of astonished metropolitan/AB types who simply can't believe it. Their tone in particular is very telling - the almost reflexive insulting descriptions. Labour spent 5yrs lying to themselves that they didn't spend too much, and immigration wasn't an issue. And got walloped on the arse by the electorate.
How long will some Remainers continue to deny that over 17m said Out. That's more than the entire In vote in 1975. And they meant it. They weren't more stupid - they made a rational choice based on their values and their lives.
Whilst I can fully appreciated that some are upset by not getting their way - it'll be interesting to see if/when they begin to understand why they lost.
I seem to remember we've argued about this once before, in the days when, ironically, I posted under my own name and you were still Antifrank. I don't recall then that you had any answers to the points I made about subsidies being the other way around.
I have always thought London should be treated differently from England as a whole, because of its unusual nature. But I have also always thought it should not be able to hold England to ransom the way it consistently has done down the centuries ever since its coup to install the House of York in 1461.
Nick P mentioned that a huge amount of these "EU laws" was in areas of standardisation often measures that came via the WTO. How much easier to have the EU Parliament spend the time debating and implementing the changes brought into effect via secondary legislation, that having to put it all in Primary legislation.
I suppose one could argue that part of the problem is that the EU has already implemented much of the "good" stuff that there is to do and the problem was that they were off in search of new, less palatable challenges to fill their time, but if so it is at least going to be very important that there isn't some sort of "bonfire" of EU regulations that takes us all the way back to square one and being the dirty man of Europe.
@politicshome: Cameron allies set to back Theresa May to 'stop Boris': https://t.co/t3t4CJsXHY https://t.co/7or4UA9xe3
Osborne appeared from the bunker yet?