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How long will Peacock remain Chairman of the Beverley branch of the Royal British Legion after a remark like that? http://beverley.gov.uk/resources/files/06f2d8cd1e589d60499dc054cd590d46/peacock_reg_of_interest.pdf0
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We only get buggers standing (at least in the leadership positions)! Some better, some worse, and at least without Europe we only have to worry about our own buggers, but we're setting ourselves up for disappointment by pretending senior cabinet ministers and shadow cabinet figures will not be, well, exactly what they are now, once we leave.GIN1138 said:
But here you can kick the buggers out...kle4 said:
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political classTheScreamingEagles said:The Mail comes out for Leave. I'm shocked
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/745370366919380997
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And the executive parasite class, the public sector fatcat class etc.kle4 said:
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political classTheScreamingEagles said:The Mail comes out for Leave. I'm shocked
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/745370366919380997
'"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
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Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.suretheyreallthesame said:If only Boris had said 'we're not looking to set the number, we're fighting for the people of Britain to be able to do that!'
They are NOT standing on a manifesto and coming up with a number, that's for a future government to do after we've taken back control...
I think LEAVE was thrown at the start of that part of the debate from the BNP donation thing and they didn't really recover.
Doubt it made any difference though.0 -
I agree, and further more, I think he's picked the wrong strategy this time.HurstLlama said:
My memory was that the great and the good were lined up on the reamain side whilst on the leave side was Peter Shore, Benn, Powell and others who the great and the good assured us were either nutters or just plain wrong. The majority believed the great and the good and by a big margin.BenedictWhite said:
No, we didn't believe (or take sufficient account of) Peter Shore et al.
Of course it turned out that the great and the good were lying through their teeth and it was the nutters who had it correct.
This time Cameron et al are trying the same play book but the world has turned and we are a much less deferential society with access to many more sources of information not to mention some people are jolly cross about how their society has been changed without their consent or even their being asked. On top of which there are those of us who are not going to be fooled twice.
Then on top of all that we have Cameron not that long ago saying that of course the Uk would be fine outside of the EU, he'd even consider leading us there himself if he didn't get the renegotiation deal he wanted. Now having failed to get the deal he said he wanted he says the sky will fall in if we vote to leave. He seems to think the electorate are idiots with the memory of goldfish.
All in all I think, and have thought from the start, that Cameron was trying to pull a 1975 referendum on us.0 -
Throughout the EU referendum campaign, a recurring theme has been that the Remain side lacks "passion". Not tonight. At the BBC's Wembley Arena debate, the triumvirate of Sadiq Khan, Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady gave the pro-EU side the punch it has lacked. They remorselessly pummelled Leave's unchanged line-up of Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom over their campaign's mendacity.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/eu-referendum-debate-sadiq-khan-and-ruth-davidson-give-remain-punch-it-needs0 -
Six people on the panel, not one from provincial England. Just like the debates last year.0
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Just no.YellowSubmarine said:Amber Rudd on News Night. Dark Horse EEA candidate in the leadership contest ?
She was benched after the ITV debate. In the words of Clem, not up to it.0 -
Actually it's down to weak EU/Eurozone growth. The predictions have always being based on the EU/Eurozone fixing itself.DavidL said:
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.IanB2 said:
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GEanother_richard said:
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.kle4 said:
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.another_richard said:For those interested new government borrowing data today, allowing an update of the Osborne over-borrowing scorecard:
Predicted Borrowing:
2010/11 £149bn
2011/12 £116bn
2012/13 £89bn
2013/14 £60bn
2014/15 £37bn
2015/16 £20bn
2016/17 surplus
Total £471bn
Actual Borrowing:
2010/11 £137bn
2011/12 £116bn
2012/13 £123bn
2013/14 £104bn
2014/15 £92bn
2015/16 £75bn
2016/17 £18bn (after 2 months)
Total £665bn
An overall over-borrowing of £194bn
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.0 -
Isn't the flaw that they did issue a manifesto - last week. £100m to the NHS etcGIN1138 said:
Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.suretheyreallthesame said:If only Boris had said 'we're not looking to set the number, we're fighting for the people of Britain to be able to do that!'
They are NOT standing on a manifesto and coming up with a number, that's for a future government to do after we've taken back control...
I think LEAVE was thrown at the start of that part of the debate from the BNP donation thing and they didn't really recover.
Doubt it made any difference though.0 -
Yeah, no.Scott_P said:Throughout the EU referendum campaign, a recurring theme has been that the Remain side lacks "passion". Not tonight. At the BBC's Wembley Arena debate, the triumvirate of Sadiq Khan, Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady gave the pro-EU side the punch it has lacked. They remorselessly pummelled Leave's unchanged line-up of Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom over their campaign's mendacity.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/eu-referendum-debate-sadiq-khan-and-ruth-davidson-give-remain-punch-it-needs
I am a little surprised Khan has been deemed to do so well by some. Bland with moments of interest and some stumbles.
Stuart was the best of the Leavers I thought.0 -
Desperate attempt by Mail to paint this as anti-politics and anti-elites. Is there anyone in Britain more elite than Boris Johnson (Eton, Oxford, President of the Union, Bullingdon, Spectator editor, Telegraph columnist etc etc)? His sister even runs The Lady for crying out loud.another_richard said:
And the executive parasite class, the public sector fatcat class etc.kle4 said:
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political classTheScreamingEagles said:The Mail comes out for Leave. I'm shocked
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/745370366919380997
'"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."0 -
That's the Matt Hancock who thought that Kids Company were a deserving charity for taxpayers money ?Scott_P said:@MattHancockMP: Tonight we've learned Leave have:
1.No plan to reduce immigration
2.No plan on economy
3.No plan to give back £600,000 from exBNP member
I'd narrow down your tweet list if I was you.
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And the same establishment that you sided with during the Indyref? Funny old world, ain't it?Luckyguy1983 said:
Your traditional Scottish preference for Europeans over the hated English is blinding you to the fact that this is the same establishment that you all railed against in the Indyref.scotslass said:I thought it was an OKish debate. Given the size of the audience it was bound to have a degree of drama that the others have lacked.
I thought the TUC lady and the Tory Minister were disapointing. Sadiq and Ruth Davidson made some good debating points as did Gisela who appeared the most considered if the least stylish debater. Boris was realatively poor in the debate proper.
However his summing up was in a totally different league to Ruth Davidson and the Remain camp should not have fielded her for this or written a much better script. And this has been Remain achilles heel throughout the campaign. It hasn't been just a Project Fear from the dreadful duo in Downing Street but the total lack of hope and idealism from the mainstream campaign.
I think Remain will win and that this is the best result. Whether they deserve to win is a different matter. In the final estimation perhaps they do in the sense that they have spent marginally less time in the gutter that Leave.
As an extremely unenthusiastic Remainer I can at least comfort myself that I'm again on the opposite side from Farage, Johnson, Gove, Forsyth, UKIP, The Telegraph, The Mail, The Express, Galloway, and all the hideous far right groups that support Leave.0 -
Wouldn't matter. People may think they've been lied to about that, I doubt it will be picked up, but they know Remain cannot do anything about immigration. So if Immigration is the driving factor - it isn't for me - then Leave could say anything at all, because people will think it possible to do something, even if Boris doesn't want to.Scott_P said:
All 3 of them support free movement. That's what went wrong. They are standing on a platform of lies and got caught short.GIN1138 said:Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.
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On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive
Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side
Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential
Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London
Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?0 -
OK, but in terms of the debate it's an easy "fudge" just to say we're trying to hand the decision to the British people for what the number should be not making up a number ourselves.Scott_P said:
All 3 of them support free movement. That's what went wrong.GIN1138 said:Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.
It's like the thing about Australia having more immigrants than we do with their points based system... Well yes that's true but only because that is what Australia has CHOSEN to do that. That's the whole point.
It's about taking back control.
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I think that is a "can't be arsed issue" to be honest. Post Leave, they had better be arsed.rottenborough said:0 -
No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.Scott_P said:
All 3 of them support free movement. That's what went wrong. They are standing on a platform of lies and got caught short.GIN1138 said:Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.
Won't matter though, unless they win.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.0 -
So far none of the people who have commented on Matt Hancock's Tweet have discussed the substance.
Revealing...0 -
The arguments changes from Leave depending on the day of the week.alex. said:
I thought we were prevented from scouring the World for highly skilled talent because we are stuck with all the duffers from the EU who get here for free? Or something.rottenborough said:0 -
I don't remember that? :innocent_face:alex. said:
Isn't the flaw that they did issue a manifesto - last week. £100m to the NHS etcGIN1138 said:
Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.suretheyreallthesame said:If only Boris had said 'we're not looking to set the number, we're fighting for the people of Britain to be able to do that!'
They are NOT standing on a manifesto and coming up with a number, that's for a future government to do after we've taken back control...
I think LEAVE was thrown at the start of that part of the debate from the BNP donation thing and they didn't really recover.
Doubt it made any difference though.0 -
That's a genius idea.Sandpit said:
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!MyBurningEars said:
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.BenedictWhite said:
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.eek said:BenedictWhite said:
Go on, do tell... Got a link?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.0 -
That must be why I like it!RobD said:
Whenever I hear it, I can't help but think Harbinger saying "Assuming direct control" in the game Mass EffectRoyalBlue said:On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
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Shame Boris is in favour of migration then.BenedictWhite said:
I think that is a "can't be arsed issue" to be honest. Post Leave, they had better be arsed.rottenborough said:0 -
They have offered a policy platform.El_Dave said:No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight0 -
Khan is pretty typical of the London left these days. Fairly centrist on economics but always on the lookout for a culture war to virtue signal about - hence the shoutinessRoyalBlue said:On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive
Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side
Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential
Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London
Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?0 -
I think there are apps that make you do maths questions before you can do string after a certain timeMyBurningEars said:
That's a genius idea.Sandpit said:
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!MyBurningEars said:
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.BenedictWhite said:
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.eek said:BenedictWhite said:
Go on, do tell... Got a link?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.0 -
Thanks Royal - very similar views to mine, but Frances' voice didn't work on the TV IMO.RoyalBlue said:On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive
Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side
Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential
Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London
Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
Khan came across very poorly. Playground politician.0 -
You could probably infer it from a drop in typing accuracy.MyBurningEars said:
That's a genius idea.Sandpit said:
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!MyBurningEars said:
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.BenedictWhite said:
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.eek said:BenedictWhite said:
Go on, do tell... Got a link?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.0 -
Leadsom?FrankBooth said:Six people on the panel, not one from provincial England. Just like the debates last year.
"Leadsom was born in Aylesbury and attended Tonbridge Girls' Grammar School before reading Political Science at the University of Warwick."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Leadsom0 -
I don't think any country actually takes more than a third of their immigrants on a points system: Australia certainly doesn't.GIN1138 said:
OK, but in terms of the debate it's an easy "fudge" just to say we're trying to hand the decision to the British people for what the number should be not making up a number ourselves.Scott_P said:
All 3 of them support free movement. That's what went wrong.GIN1138 said:Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.
It's like the thing about Australia having more immigrants than we do with their points based system... Well yes that's true but only because that is what Australia has CHOSEN to do. That's the whole point.
It's about taking back control.0 -
It exists as a plug in for the iPhoneMyBurningEars said:
That's a genius idea.Sandpit said:
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!MyBurningEars said:
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.BenedictWhite said:
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.eek said:BenedictWhite said:
Go on, do tell... Got a link?TheScreamingEagles said:Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.0 -
I imagine "Take back control" did get a bit annoying but I think they way they are hammering this is perfect... LEAVE has THE memorable soundbite of the campaign (Does REMAIN even have one?) and people will remember "TBC" when they walk into the polling station, IMO.RoyalBlue said:On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive
Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side
Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential
Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London
Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?0 -
Look at all these other great slogans the Leave campaign could have used... titterskle4 said:
That must be why I like it!RobD said:
Whenever I hear it, I can't help but think Harbinger saying "Assuming direct control" in the game Mass EffectRoyalBlue said:On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_(Collector)/Battle_Quotes
just replace "Shepard" with "Juncker" 0 -
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago
I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable
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I think we can assume you've retweeted the wrong person.Scott_P said:So far none of the people who have commented on Matt Hancock's Tweet have discussed the substance.
Revealing...
But as you're now interested in substance perhaps you can give us a tweet on Osborne's £194,000,000,000 of over-borrowing.
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Quite, and Stuart is MP for Edgbaston.El_Dave said:
Leadsom?FrankBooth said:Six people on the panel, not one from provincial England. Just like the debates last year.
"Leadsom was born in Aylesbury and attended Tonbridge Girls' Grammar School before reading Political Science at the University of Warwick."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Leadsom0 -
Gisela Stuart represents the Midlands, O Grady comes from the Oxford of car factories rather than College quads, Boris represents a Home counties seat. Andrea Leadsom was born in Aylesbury and represents the Shire of Northants.FrankBooth said:Six people on the panel, not one from provincial England. Just like the debates last year.
Speaking as a provincial Englishman myself, it does seem as if we were well represented. Though of all the people up there the Non-English Ruth Davidson represented me and my views the best.0 -
Perhaps for the Trident vote we can draw on Red Alert 2:
"Nuclear missile ready!" (Heavy Russian accent)0 -
Many more comments. Still none on the substance.
Even more revealing...0 -
No, they've highlighted possible benefits of leaving the EU.Scott_P said:
They have offered a policy platform.El_Dave said:No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight
The referendum will not be to elect Team Leave to government, it will be to instruct our current government to get us out of the EU.
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Well yes, the £50bn would ideally have come from an increase in exports of that amount but he has to play the hand that he has and it is a tricky one.BenedictWhite said:
Actually it's down to weak EU/Eurozone growth. The predictions have always being based on the EU/Eurozone fixing itself.DavidL said:
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.IanB2 said:
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GEanother_richard said:
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.kle4 said:
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.another_richard said:For those interested new government borrowing data today, allowing an update of the Osborne over-borrowing scorecard:
Predicted Borrowing:
2010/11 £149bn
2011/12 £116bn
2012/13 £89bn
2013/14 £60bn
2014/15 £37bn
2015/16 £20bn
2016/17 surplus
Total £471bn
Actual Borrowing:
2010/11 £137bn
2011/12 £116bn
2012/13 £123bn
2013/14 £104bn
2014/15 £92bn
2015/16 £75bn
2016/17 £18bn (after 2 months)
Total £665bn
An overall over-borrowing of £194bn
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.0 -
I am sure we can all agree that it is great to see Britain stronger in Europe tonight, with all three home nations still in Euro2016.0
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There could be impending by-election's at Witney and Tatton shortly?rottenborough said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago
I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable 0 -
Gisela did that bit.suretheyreallthesame said:If only Boris had said 'we're not looking to set the number, we're fighting for the people of Britain to be able to do that!'
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England v Holland (Euro 96) on BT Sport 1 now, for those who want cheering up :-)0
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Be gentle - he's not happy if he's not retweeting inanities.Mortimer said:
Yeh, because we're all in shock that Matt Hancock still bothers to tweet.Scott_P said:So far none of the people who have commented on Matt Hancock's Tweet have discussed the substance.
Revealing...
And that you bother to copy it.0 -
'Don't risk it' is a remain one, but not used that often I thinkGIN1138 said:
I imagine "Take back control" did get a bit annoying but I think they way they are hammering this is perfect... LEAVE has THE memorable soundbite of the campaign (Does REMAIN even have one?) and people will remember "TBC" when they walk into the polling station, IMO.RoyalBlue said:On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive
Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side
Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential
Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London
Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?0 -
Yes, I like it too.GIN1138 said:
I imagine "Take back control" did get a bit annoying but I think they way they are hammering this is perfect... LEAVE has THE memorable soundbite of the campaign (Does REMAIN even have one?) and people will remember "TBC" when they walk into the polling station, IMO.RoyalBlue said:On my way home after Wembley.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive
Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side
Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential
Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London
Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
I wish they'd been more on how much of our law/regulation/legislation comes from the EU, but everything has been touched upon.
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He is, but he is also in favour of democratic control of immigration.rottenborough said:
Shame Boris is in favour of migration then.BenedictWhite said:
I think that is a "can't be arsed issue" to be honest. Post Leave, they had better be arsed.rottenborough said:0 -
You have to develop a policy platform?Scott_P said:
They have offered a policy platform.El_Dave said:No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight0 -
Another fan who doesn't know what retweet meansThreeQuidder said:Be gentle - he's not happy if he's not retweeting inanities.
And is unable to comment on the substance.0 -
As for your first point, a successful branding exercise needs a great brand name that connotes the merit of the product, a successful tag line that states the competitive position of the brand - and hopefully unravels your rival's position, and arguably a great 'visual hammer' that triggers these associations. There's a lot of smuggling of concepts and ideas you need to get into these words and images - they don't just need to sound 'catchy'.kle4 said:
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
Brand Name
Vote Leave - is a category description not a brand name. Everyone knows it's Vote Leave, so why waste your brand name telling them again?
Stronger In - is better. At least it's conveying a benefit.
Tag Line
Vote Leave Take Control - My main issue here is that I don't think people have voted to 'take control' of anything since pre-1945. Even the Thatcher era was pretty much wanting her to take control, not the general populace. We want to be looked after, not to have more to do.
What is Remain's tag line? Total fail as far as I'm concerned as I don't even know it
Visual Hammer
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective.
Big IN thing - not particularly inspired, attempt to be patriotic, IN is always more comforting than being OUT.
As to what I'd do with the tag line, I'd have really liked the campaigns to be called 'Yes' and 'No', because I really loved the slogan, 'If not No, when?'. I've not come up with one I liked as much for Leave.
I did come up with a few suggestions - one example being the now legendary 'Be Leave' (not claiming to be the first, or even the first on PB, but I do know I hadn't seen it when I suggested it). It's catchy, and has a nice feel about it, but doesn't deliver that hardcore message into the brain. The tag line that worked in Denmark was 'More EU - No thank you'.
0 -
To comment on substance, there has to be some substance to comment on.Scott_P said:Many more comments. Still none on the substance.
Even more revealing...0 -
Commonly called a ballot boxLuckyguy1983 said:
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective. Probably to go with their theme of taking back control via the ballot box? 0 -
Aren't there a few suspended SNP MPs too?GIN1138 said:
There could be impending by-election's at Witney and Tatton shortly?rottenborough said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago
I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable0 -
No he isn't. He's peddling a prospectus on the basis of reducing immigration when he has no intention of doing so. That is toxic for democracy.BenedictWhite said:
He is, but he is also in favour of democratic control of immigration.rottenborough said:
Shame Boris is in favour of migration then.BenedictWhite said:
I think that is a "can't be arsed issue" to be honest. Post Leave, they had better be arsed.rottenborough said:0 -
@NCPoliticsEU: YouGov/Times (#EURef):
REMAIN 41 (-1)
LEAVE 40 (-4)
N=1,176
Fieldwork post-#BBCDebate
#EUDebate #EUreferendum #Brexit0 -
Quite. This is the big difference between IndyRef and this one - the change campaign is not led by the governing party.El_Dave said:
No, they've highlighted possible benefits of leaving the EU.Scott_P said:
They have offered a policy platform.El_Dave said:No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight
The referendum will not be to elect Team Leave to government, it will be to instruct our current government to get us out of the EU.
You could criticise the contents of the SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland, but they were at least in a position where they could credibly offer one. I think if the government were supporting leave they'd be streets ahead in the polls as they would be able to definitively lay out the way forward, thus neutralising the risk and uncertainty argument.0 -
In the PB comments, it means "copy and paste a tweet into a PB comment".Scott_P said:
Another fan who doesn't know what retweet meansThreeQuidder said:Be gentle - he's not happy if he's not retweeting inanities.
You do understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts, don't you?0 -
They can get a balanced sample in 3 hours? Blimey!Scott_P said:@NCPoliticsEU: YouGov/Times (#EURef):
REMAIN 41 (-1)
LEAVE 40 (-4)
N=1,176
Fieldwork post-#BBCDebate
#EUDebate #EUreferendum #Brexit0 -
But as you're now interested in substance perhaps you can give us a tweet on Osborne's £194,000,000,000 of over-borrowing.Scott_P said:Many more comments. Still none on the substance.
Even more revealing...
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@arobertwebb: But I wouldn't risk Leave - I wouldn't risk other people's jobs. That's it for me. You don't fuck around with other people's jobs. The end.
What we might call the SeanT dilemma
@KateEMcCann: Ruth's line - and a good one too. Haven't heard it from Remain camp up until this point. https://t.co/uMEYlZEQKT0 -
But as you're now interested in substance perhaps you can give us a tweet on Osborne's £194,000,000,000 of over-borrowing.Scott_P said:
Another fan who doesn't know what retweet meansThreeQuidder said:Be gentle - he's not happy if he's not retweeting inanities.
And is unable to comment on the substance.0 -
Orwell's 1984 was explicitly influenced by reading We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, which is far more sci-fi, impressively so for 1921. No robot claws in it that I recall. But if I could meet one fictional character, it'd have to be a toss-up between I-330 and Thackeray's Becky Sharp. An immaculately vivid characterisation, even if not's someone I could bring myself to like.RodCrosby said:0 -
They could take the opportunity to adopt the CDU/CSU solution. Davidson could then be the presumptive PM candidate for the Conservative Union while still being in the Scottish Parliament for the time being.rottenborough said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago
I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable0 -
If it's post the debate it's in an hour.RobD said:
They can get a balanced sample in 3 hours? Blimey!Scott_P said:@NCPoliticsEU: YouGov/Times (#EURef):
REMAIN 41 (-1)
LEAVE 40 (-4)
N=1,176
Fieldwork post-#BBCDebate
#EUDebate #EUreferendum #Brexit
No. They can't.0 -
Translation. You found out you were using the wrong word, and to cover your embarrassment you assume the Alice In Wonderland position.ThreeQuidder said:You do understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts, don't you?
As the kids are saying today, EPIC FAIL
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Thing is, that this is where economic models fall down. Assume the EU isn't going to be a basket case next week, is a mugs game.DavidL said:
Well yes, the £50bn would ideally have come from an increase in exports of that amount but he has to play the hand that he has and it is a tricky one.BenedictWhite said:
Actually it's down to weak EU/Eurozone growth. The predictions have always being based on the EU/Eurozone fixing itself.DavidL said:
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.IanB2 said:
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GEanother_richard said:
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.kle4 said:
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.another_richard said:For those interested new government borrowing data today, allowing an update of the Osborne over-borrowing scorecard:
Predicted Borrowing:
2010/11 £149bn
2011/12 £116bn
2012/13 £89bn
2013/14 £60bn
2014/15 £37bn
2015/16 £20bn
2016/17 surplus
Total £471bn
Actual Borrowing:
2010/11 £137bn
2011/12 £116bn
2012/13 £123bn
2013/14 £104bn
2014/15 £92bn
2015/16 £75bn
2016/17 £18bn (after 2 months)
Total £665bn
An overall over-borrowing of £194bn
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
It is one of the reasons I am out.0 -
I am aware of what the image is meant to represent. But where's the taking back control bit? It isn't there is it? It's no more than a space filler. As a visual hammer it's a total vacuum.RobD said:
Commonly called a ballot boxLuckyguy1983 said:
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective. Probably to go with their theme of taking back control via the ballot box?0 -
Lotd Rothermere and Paul Dacre are both clearly a million miles from the establishment elite :-)rottenborough said:
Desperate attempt by Mail to paint this as anti-politics and anti-elites. Is there anyone in Britain more elite than Boris Johnson (Eton, Oxford, President of the Union, Bullingdon, Spectator editor, Telegraph columnist etc etc)? His sister even runs The Lady for crying out loud.another_richard said:
And the executive parasite class, the public sector fatcat class etc.kle4 said:
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political classTheScreamingEagles said:The Mail comes out for Leave. I'm shocked
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/745370366919380997
'"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
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Remain's tag line is often "No turning back". As I said down thread, it's horrible because it conjures a runaway train or a slow motion car crash. It's also passive: you're a backseat driver.Luckyguy1983 said:
As for your first point, a successful branding exercise needs a great brand name that connotes the merit of the product, a successful tag line that states the competitive position of the brand - and hopefully unravels your rival's position, and arguably a great 'visual hammer' that triggers these associations. There's a lot of smuggling of concepts and ideas you need to get into these words and images - they don't just need to sound 'catchy'.kle4 said:
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
Brand Name
Vote Leave - is a category description not a brand name. Everyone knows it's Vote Leave, so why waste your brand name telling them again?
Stronger In - is better. At least it's conveying a benefit.
Tag Line
Vote Leave Take Control - My main issue here is that I don't think people have voted to 'take control' of anything since pre-1945. Even the Thatcher era was pretty much wanting her to take control, not the general populace. We want to be looked after, not to have more to do.
What is Remain's tag line? Total fail as far as I'm concerned as I don't even know it
Visual Hammer
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective.
Big IN thing - not particularly inspired, attempt to be patriotic, IN is always more comforting than being OUT.
As to what I'd do with the tag line, I'd have really liked the campaigns to be called 'Yes' and 'No', because I really loved the slogan, 'If not No, when?'. I've not come up with one I liked as much for Leave.
I did come up with a few suggestions - one example being the now legendary 'Be Leave' (not claiming to be the first, or even the first on PB, but I do know I hadn't seen it when I suggested it). It's catchy, and has a nice feel about it, but doesn't deliver that hardcore message into the brain. The tag line that worked in Denmark was 'More EU - No thank you'.
"Take back control" is excellent: it's proactive, and people like to be in control - of their futures especially.
For me, the best poster for Leave has been The Spectator's front cover - the UK butterfly emerging from the EU box: 'Out - and into the world'. That would have been a positive message.0 -
That's most likely but not a dead cert. They could face a backlash from people questioning why they aren't getting on with the job and asking why they feel they need more power.chrisoxon said:
Quite. This is the big difference between IndyRef and this one - the change campaign is not led by the governing party.El_Dave said:
No, they've highlighted possible benefits of leaving the EU.Scott_P said:
They have offered a policy platform.El_Dave said:No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight
The referendum will not be to elect Team Leave to government, it will be to instruct our current government to get us out of the EU.
You could criticise the contents of the SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland, but they were at least in a position where they could credibly offer one. I think if the government were supporting leave they'd be streets ahead in the polls as they would be able to definitively lay out the way forward, thus neutralising the risk and uncertainty argument.0 -
Vote Leave reminds people do actually do it, and take control at the same time. Via the ballot box.Luckyguy1983 said:
As for your first point, a successful branding exercise needs a great brand name that connotes the merit of the product, a successful tag line that states the competitive position of the brand - and hopefully unravels your rival's position, and arguably a great 'visual hammer' that triggers these associations. There's a lot of smuggling of concepts and ideas you need to get into these words and images - they don't just need to sound 'catchy'.kle4 said:
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
Brand Name
Vote Leave - is a category description not a brand name. Everyone knows it's Vote Leave, so why waste your brand name telling them again?
Stronger In - is better. At least it's conveying a benefit.
Tag Line
Vote Leave Take Control - My main issue here is that I don't think people have voted to 'take control' of anything since pre-1945. Even the Thatcher era was pretty much wanting her to take control, not the general populace. We want to be looked after, not to have more to do.
What is Remain's tag line? Total fail as far as I'm concerned as I don't even know it
Visual Hammer
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective.
Big IN thing - not particularly inspired, attempt to be patriotic, IN is always more comforting than being OUT.
As to what I'd do with the tag line, I'd have really liked the campaigns to be called 'Yes' and 'No', because I really loved the slogan, 'If not No, when?'. I've not come up with one I liked as much for Leave.
I did come up with a few suggestions - one example being the now legendary 'Be Leave' (not claiming to be the first, or even the first on PB, but I do know I hadn't seen it when I suggested it). It's catchy, and has a nice feel about it, but doesn't deliver that hardcore message into the brain. The tag line that worked in Denmark was 'More EU - No thank you'.
It is all rather integrated.0 -
It'll never happen, but could you simultaneously be FM and PM (via a peerage in the House of Lords)?williamglenn said:
They could take the opportunity to adopt the CDU/CSU solution. Davidson could then be the presumptive PM candidate for the Conservative Union while still being in the Scottish Parliament for the time being.rottenborough said:Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago
I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable0 -
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Well we'll be taking back by voting, votes which go in the ballot box.... tenuous.Luckyguy1983 said:
I am aware of what the image is meant to represent. But where's the taking back control bit? It isn't there is it? It's no more than a space filler. As a visual hammer it's a total vacuum.RobD said:
Commonly called a ballot boxLuckyguy1983 said:
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective. Probably to go with their theme of taking back control via the ballot box?0 -
We are at war with the Klingons. We have always been at war with the Klingons...RodCrosby said:0 -
Nope. It's the descriptive attitude to lexicography. It's well established what "retweet" means here, and the fact that you hate it just encourages it.Scott_P said:
Translation. You found out you were using the wrong word, and to cover your embarrassment you assume the Alice In Wonderland position.ThreeQuidder said:You do understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts, don't you?
Of course, you could stop. But I guess you can stop any time you want?
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"We" is an astonishing work. A very mathematical book as well as a disturbing dystophian work.MyBurningEars said:
Orwell's 1984 was explicitly influenced by reading We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, which is far more sci-fi, impressively so for 1921. No robot claws in it that I recall. But if I could meet one fictional character, it'd have to be a toss-up between I-330 and Thackeray's Becky Sharp. An immaculately vivid characterisation, even if not's someone I could bring myself to like.RodCrosby said:0 -
Sturgeon needs to sack whoever picked that outfit.Scott_P said:The Daily Record
✔
@Daily_Record
Why we say stay: Leaders of Scotland's five main political parties issue joint statement backing Remain0 -
Not quite. What he has said is it will be up to parliament/government to decide.williamglenn said:
No he isn't. He's peddling a prospectus on the basis of reducing immigration when he has no intention of doing so. That is toxic for democracy.BenedictWhite said:
He is, but he is also in favour of democratic control of immigration.rottenborough said:
Shame Boris is in favour of migration then.BenedictWhite said:
I think that is a "can't be arsed issue" to be honest. Post Leave, they had better be arsed.rottenborough said:
It will, and if we don't like it we can throw them out.
On the other hand we have a government promising to get immigration down to 100,000 or less and hasn't even managed that with non EU immigration. That is very toxic to democracy.0 -
Quite. It's equivalent.ThreeQuidder said:
In the PB comments, it means "copy and paste a tweet into a PB comment".Scott_P said:
Another fan who doesn't know what retweet meansThreeQuidder said:Be gentle - he's not happy if he's not retweeting inanities.
You do understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts, don't you?
People getting more confused? Great...Scott_P said:@NCPoliticsEU: YouGov/Times (#EURef):
REMAIN 41 (-1)
LEAVE 40 (-4)
N=1,176
Fieldwork post-#BBCDebate
#EUDebate #EUreferendum #Brexit0 -
Yes it is well established, and none of my fans have worked it out yet.ThreeQuidder said:It's well established what "retweet" means
Tragic0 -
That YouGov isn't a proper poll. It uses their app and isn't a fully weighted poll.0
