I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political class
But here you can kick the buggers out...
We only get buggers standing (at least in the leadership positions)! Some better, some worse, and at least without Europe we only have to worry about our own buggers, but we're setting ourselves up for disappointment by pretending senior cabinet ministers and shadow cabinet figures will not be, well, exactly what they are now, once we leave.
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political class
And the executive parasite class, the public sector fatcat class etc.
No, we didn't believe (or take sufficient account of) Peter Shore et al.
My memory was that the great and the good were lined up on the reamain side whilst on the leave side was Peter Shore, Benn, Powell and others who the great and the good assured us were either nutters or just plain wrong. The majority believed the great and the good and by a big margin.
Of course it turned out that the great and the good were lying through their teeth and it was the nutters who had it correct.
This time Cameron et al are trying the same play book but the world has turned and we are a much less deferential society with access to many more sources of information not to mention some people are jolly cross about how their society has been changed without their consent or even their being asked. On top of which there are those of us who are not going to be fooled twice.
Then on top of all that we have Cameron not that long ago saying that of course the Uk would be fine outside of the EU, he'd even consider leading us there himself if he didn't get the renegotiation deal he wanted. Now having failed to get the deal he said he wanted he says the sky will fall in if we vote to leave. He seems to think the electorate are idiots with the memory of goldfish.
All in all I think, and have thought from the start, that Cameron was trying to pull a 1975 referendum on us.
I agree, and further more, I think he's picked the wrong strategy this time.
Throughout the EU referendum campaign, a recurring theme has been that the Remain side lacks "passion". Not tonight. At the BBC's Wembley Arena debate, the triumvirate of Sadiq Khan, Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady gave the pro-EU side the punch it has lacked. They remorselessly pummelled Leave's unchanged line-up of Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom over their campaign's mendacity.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GE
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.
Actually it's down to weak EU/Eurozone growth. The predictions have always being based on the EU/Eurozone fixing itself.
Throughout the EU referendum campaign, a recurring theme has been that the Remain side lacks "passion". Not tonight. At the BBC's Wembley Arena debate, the triumvirate of Sadiq Khan, Ruth Davidson and Frances O'Grady gave the pro-EU side the punch it has lacked. They remorselessly pummelled Leave's unchanged line-up of Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Andrea Leadsom over their campaign's mendacity.
I'm going to be bold. Leave win by 4% (52-48) as my final prediction. Boris' finish will be a rallying call for Leave, while some young'uns won't vote.
Spreadex will be paying me £6,000 if that's correct
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political class
And the executive parasite class, the public sector fatcat class etc.
'"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Desperate attempt by Mail to paint this as anti-politics and anti-elites. Is there anyone in Britain more elite than Boris Johnson (Eton, Oxford, President of the Union, Bullingdon, Spectator editor, Telegraph columnist etc etc)? His sister even runs The Lady for crying out loud.
@MattHancockMP: Tonight we've learned Leave have: 1.No plan to reduce immigration 2.No plan on economy 3.No plan to give back £600,000 from exBNP member
That's the Matt Hancock who thought that Kids Company were a deserving charity for taxpayers money ?
Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.
All 3 of them support free movement. That's what went wrong. They are standing on a platform of lies and got caught short.
Wouldn't matter. People may think they've been lied to about that, I doubt it will be picked up, but they know Remain cannot do anything about immigration. So if Immigration is the driving factor - it isn't for me - then Leave could say anything at all, because people will think it possible to do something, even if Boris doesn't want to.
I thought it was an OKish debate. Given the size of the audience it was bound to have a degree of drama that the others have lacked.
I thought the TUC lady and the Tory Minister were disapointing. Sadiq and Ruth Davidson made some good debating points as did Gisela who appeared the most considered if the least stylish debater. Boris was realatively poor in the debate proper.
However his summing up was in a totally different league to Ruth Davidson and the Remain camp should not have fielded her for this or written a much better script. And this has been Remain achilles heel throughout the campaign. It hasn't been just a Project Fear from the dreadful duo in Downing Street but the total lack of hope and idealism from the mainstream campaign.
I think Remain will win and that this is the best result. Whether they deserve to win is a different matter. In the final estimation perhaps they do in the sense that they have spent marginally less time in the gutter that Leave.
Your traditional Scottish preference for Europeans over the hated English is blinding you to the fact that this is the same establishment that you all railed against in the Indyref.
And the same establishment that you sided with during the Indyref? Funny old world, ain't it?
As an extremely unenthusiastic Remainer I can at least comfort myself that I'm again on the opposite side from Farage, Johnson, Gove, Forsyth, UKIP, The Telegraph, The Mail, The Express, Galloway, and all the hideous far right groups that support Leave.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.
All 3 of them support free movement. That's what went wrong.
OK, but in terms of the debate it's an easy "fudge" just to say we're trying to hand the decision to the British people for what the number should be not making up a number ourselves.
It's like the thing about Australia having more immigrants than we do with their points based system... Well yes that's true but only because that is what Australia has CHOSEN to do that. That's the whole point.
Is it true that almost 50% of immigrants to the UK are from outside of the EU?
It's more than 50% on the latest figures
and yet strangely we have not been able to reduce this figure to 10s of 1000s despite HAVING COMPLETE CONTROL.
I thought we were prevented from scouring the World for highly skilled talent because we are stuck with all the duffers from the EU who get here for free? Or something.
The arguments changes from Leave depending on the day of the week.
Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Go on, do tell... Got a link?
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!
I'm going to be bold. Leave win by 4% (52-48) as my final prediction. Boris' finish will be a rallying call for Leave, while some young'uns won't vote.
Spreadex will be paying me £6,000 if that's correct
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
Khan is pretty typical of the London left these days. Fairly centrist on economics but always on the lookout for a culture war to virtue signal about - hence the shoutiness
Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Go on, do tell... Got a link?
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!
That's a genius idea.
I think there are apps that make you do maths questions before you can do string after a certain time
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
Thanks Royal - very similar views to mine, but Frances' voice didn't work on the TV IMO.
Khan came across very poorly. Playground politician.
Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Go on, do tell... Got a link?
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!
That's a genius idea.
You could probably infer it from a drop in typing accuracy.
Yeah, not sure what went wrong for LEAVE on immigration tonight. It's such an easy answer.
All 3 of them support free movement. That's what went wrong.
OK, but in terms of the debate it's an easy "fudge" just to say we're trying to hand the decision to the British people for what the number should be not making up a number ourselves.
It's like the thing about Australia having more immigrants than we do with their points based system... Well yes that's true but only because that is what Australia has CHOSEN to do. That's the whole point.
It's about taking back control.
I don't think any country actually takes more than a third of their immigrants on a points system: Australia certainly doesn't.
Lord Sugar has just proven David Cameron's maxim about Twitter
Go on, do tell... Got a link?
Twit. Really? Still twitter is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.
I'm surprised that, particularly for higher profile users, people don't use an app that gives 5 minutes of thinking time between when you submit a twitter comment and when it actually gets posted. Then gives you a confirmation screen before the final go-ahead.
Okay, it'd be less dynamic and responsive - but would have saved an awful lot of blushes.
Whoever can be the first to market a breathalyser for a mobile phone will make a fortune!
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
I imagine "Take back control" did get a bit annoying but I think they way they are hammering this is perfect... LEAVE has THE memorable soundbite of the campaign (Does REMAIN even have one?) and people will remember "TBC" when they walk into the polling station, IMO.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable
Six people on the panel, not one from provincial England. Just like the debates last year.
Gisela Stuart represents the Midlands, O Grady comes from the Oxford of car factories rather than College quads, Boris represents a Home counties seat. Andrea Leadsom was born in Aylesbury and represents the Shire of Northants.
Speaking as a provincial Englishman myself, it does seem as if we were well represented. Though of all the people up there the Non-English Ruth Davidson represented me and my views the best.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GE
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.
Actually it's down to weak EU/Eurozone growth. The predictions have always being based on the EU/Eurozone fixing itself.
Well yes, the £50bn would ideally have come from an increase in exports of that amount but he has to play the hand that he has and it is a tricky one.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable
There could be impending by-election's at Witney and Tatton shortly?
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
I imagine "Take back control" did get a bit annoying but I think they way they are hammering this is perfect... LEAVE has THE memorable soundbite of the campaign (Does REMAIN even have one?) and people will remember "TBC" when they walk into the polling station, IMO.
'Don't risk it' is a remain one, but not used that often I think
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
I imagine "Take back control" did get a bit annoying but I think they way they are hammering this is perfect... LEAVE has THE memorable soundbite of the campaign (Does REMAIN even have one?) and people will remember "TBC" when they walk into the polling station, IMO.
Yes, I like it too.
I wish they'd been more on how much of our law/regulation/legislation comes from the EU, but everything has been touched upon.
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
As for your first point, a successful branding exercise needs a great brand name that connotes the merit of the product, a successful tag line that states the competitive position of the brand - and hopefully unravels your rival's position, and arguably a great 'visual hammer' that triggers these associations. There's a lot of smuggling of concepts and ideas you need to get into these words and images - they don't just need to sound 'catchy'.
Brand Name Vote Leave - is a category description not a brand name. Everyone knows it's Vote Leave, so why waste your brand name telling them again? Stronger In - is better. At least it's conveying a benefit.
Tag Line Vote Leave Take Control - My main issue here is that I don't think people have voted to 'take control' of anything since pre-1945. Even the Thatcher era was pretty much wanting her to take control, not the general populace. We want to be looked after, not to have more to do. What is Remain's tag line? Total fail as far as I'm concerned as I don't even know it
Visual Hammer Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective. Big IN thing - not particularly inspired, attempt to be patriotic, IN is always more comforting than being OUT.
As to what I'd do with the tag line, I'd have really liked the campaigns to be called 'Yes' and 'No', because I really loved the slogan, 'If not No, when?'. I've not come up with one I liked as much for Leave.
I did come up with a few suggestions - one example being the now legendary 'Be Leave' (not claiming to be the first, or even the first on PB, but I do know I hadn't seen it when I suggested it). It's catchy, and has a nice feel about it, but doesn't deliver that hardcore message into the brain. The tag line that worked in Denmark was 'More EU - No thank you'.
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective.
Commonly called a ballot box Probably to go with their theme of taking back control via the ballot box?
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable
There could be impending by-election's at Witney and Tatton shortly?
No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
They have offered a policy platform.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight
No, they've highlighted possible benefits of leaving the EU.
The referendum will not be to elect Team Leave to government, it will be to instruct our current government to get us out of the EU.
Quite. This is the big difference between IndyRef and this one - the change campaign is not led by the governing party.
You could criticise the contents of the SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland, but they were at least in a position where they could credibly offer one. I think if the government were supporting leave they'd be streets ahead in the polls as they would be able to definitively lay out the way forward, thus neutralising the risk and uncertainty argument.
@arobertwebb: But I wouldn't risk Leave - I wouldn't risk other people's jobs. That's it for me. You don't fuck around with other people's jobs. The end.
Humanoid pincers holding up a metallic slogan to blot out the sun.
Unless Orwell wrote an episode of "Star Trek", that's probably the wrong adjective...
If Orwell had lived long enough, he would have gotten around to it, I'm sure...
Orwell's 1984 was explicitly influenced by reading We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, which is far more sci-fi, impressively so for 1921. No robot claws in it that I recall. But if I could meet one fictional character, it'd have to be a toss-up between I-330 and Thackeray's Becky Sharp. An immaculately vivid characterisation, even if not's someone I could bring myself to like.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable
They could take the opportunity to adopt the CDU/CSU solution. Davidson could then be the presumptive PM candidate for the Conservative Union while still being in the Scottish Parliament for the time being.
Osborne's over-borrowing is likely to exceed £200bn next month and to be approaching £240bn by the end of 2016.
Enjoy paying your share back.
While I think he's about to be sacked - either going down with a Leave win, or sacrificed to save Cameron after a Remain win - given it seems even many Tories don't want austerity anymore, it doesn't seem like his successor will fix that mess.
Whoever is chancellor in 2020 is going to argue the job is not yet done and labour cannot be trusted on the economy. After having 10 years to handle what they identified as the main goal and failing.
Even assuming there isn't a recession or period of minimal growth (it doesn't even need a recession for borrowing to start increasing again) or international crisis or election giveaway (fat chance there) the borrowing targets are going to be missed again.
And there's no chance of any new cuts being implemented with the state of the Conservative party.
Remember also that osborne's last budget effectively brought a lot of spending forward and left massive unspecified cuts for 2019 in order to balance the pre-election books. That is a huge poisoned chalice for anyone picking up his job in the run up to the next GE
Once again he was forced to do that because the growth figures were so dismal he could not afford to take another £50bn of spending out of the economy. We are trapped with the consequences of 2001-8 and blaming Osborne is frankly childish.
Actually it's down to weak EU/Eurozone growth. The predictions have always being based on the EU/Eurozone fixing itself.
Well yes, the £50bn would ideally have come from an increase in exports of that amount but he has to play the hand that he has and it is a tricky one.
Thing is, that this is where economic models fall down. Assume the EU isn't going to be a basket case next week, is a mugs game.
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective.
Commonly called a ballot box Probably to go with their theme of taking back control via the ballot box?
I am aware of what the image is meant to represent. But where's the taking back control bit? It isn't there is it? It's no more than a space filler. As a visual hammer it's a total vacuum.
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political class
And the executive parasite class, the public sector fatcat class etc.
'"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Desperate attempt by Mail to paint this as anti-politics and anti-elites. Is there anyone in Britain more elite than Boris Johnson (Eton, Oxford, President of the Union, Bullingdon, Spectator editor, Telegraph columnist etc etc)? His sister even runs The Lady for crying out loud.
Lotd Rothermere and Paul Dacre are both clearly a million miles from the establishment elite :-)
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
As for your first point, a successful branding exercise needs a great brand name that connotes the merit of the product, a successful tag line that states the competitive position of the brand - and hopefully unravels your rival's position, and arguably a great 'visual hammer' that triggers these associations. There's a lot of smuggling of concepts and ideas you need to get into these words and images - they don't just need to sound 'catchy'.
Brand Name Vote Leave - is a category description not a brand name. Everyone knows it's Vote Leave, so why waste your brand name telling them again? Stronger In - is better. At least it's conveying a benefit.
Tag Line Vote Leave Take Control - My main issue here is that I don't think people have voted to 'take control' of anything since pre-1945. Even the Thatcher era was pretty much wanting her to take control, not the general populace. We want to be looked after, not to have more to do. What is Remain's tag line? Total fail as far as I'm concerned as I don't even know it
Visual Hammer Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective. Big IN thing - not particularly inspired, attempt to be patriotic, IN is always more comforting than being OUT.
As to what I'd do with the tag line, I'd have really liked the campaigns to be called 'Yes' and 'No', because I really loved the slogan, 'If not No, when?'. I've not come up with one I liked as much for Leave.
I did come up with a few suggestions - one example being the now legendary 'Be Leave' (not claiming to be the first, or even the first on PB, but I do know I hadn't seen it when I suggested it). It's catchy, and has a nice feel about it, but doesn't deliver that hardcore message into the brain. The tag line that worked in Denmark was 'More EU - No thank you'.
Remain's tag line is often "No turning back". As I said down thread, it's horrible because it conjures a runaway train or a slow motion car crash. It's also passive: you're a backseat driver.
"Take back control" is excellent: it's proactive, and people like to be in control - of their futures especially.
For me, the best poster for Leave has been The Spectator's front cover - the UK butterfly emerging from the EU box: 'Out - and into the world'. That would have been a positive message.
No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
They have offered a policy platform.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight
No, they've highlighted possible benefits of leaving the EU.
The referendum will not be to elect Team Leave to government, it will be to instruct our current government to get us out of the EU.
Quite. This is the big difference between IndyRef and this one - the change campaign is not led by the governing party.
You could criticise the contents of the SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland, but they were at least in a position where they could credibly offer one. I think if the government were supporting leave they'd be streets ahead in the polls as they would be able to definitively lay out the way forward, thus neutralising the risk and uncertainty argument.
That's most likely but not a dead cert. They could face a backlash from people questioning why they aren't getting on with the job and asking why they feel they need more power.
Really? I've been quite down on VoteLeave myself, and I think it's a good slogan - what's your particular issue with it, and do you have a preference for an alternative, I would be interested.
As for your first point, a successful branding exercise needs a great brand name that connotes the merit of the product, a successful tag line that states the competitive position of the brand - and hopefully unravels your rival's position, and arguably a great 'visual hammer' that triggers these associations. There's a lot of smuggling of concepts and ideas you need to get into these words and images - they don't just need to sound 'catchy'.
Brand Name Vote Leave - is a category description not a brand name. Everyone knows it's Vote Leave, so why waste your brand name telling them again? Stronger In - is better. At least it's conveying a benefit.
Tag Line Vote Leave Take Control - My main issue here is that I don't think people have voted to 'take control' of anything since pre-1945. Even the Thatcher era was pretty much wanting her to take control, not the general populace. We want to be looked after, not to have more to do. What is Remain's tag line? Total fail as far as I'm concerned as I don't even know it
Visual Hammer Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective. Big IN thing - not particularly inspired, attempt to be patriotic, IN is always more comforting than being OUT.
As to what I'd do with the tag line, I'd have really liked the campaigns to be called 'Yes' and 'No', because I really loved the slogan, 'If not No, when?'. I've not come up with one I liked as much for Leave.
I did come up with a few suggestions - one example being the now legendary 'Be Leave' (not claiming to be the first, or even the first on PB, but I do know I hadn't seen it when I suggested it). It's catchy, and has a nice feel about it, but doesn't deliver that hardcore message into the brain. The tag line that worked in Denmark was 'More EU - No thank you'.
Vote Leave reminds people do actually do it, and take control at the same time. Via the ballot box.
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB 20m20 minutes ago I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable
They could take the opportunity to adopt the CDU/CSU solution. Davidson could then be the presumptive PM candidate for the Conservative Union while still being in the Scottish Parliament for the time being.
It'll never happen, but could you simultaneously be FM and PM (via a peerage in the House of Lords)?
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective.
Commonly called a ballot box Probably to go with their theme of taking back control via the ballot box?
I am aware of what the image is meant to represent. But where's the taking back control bit? It isn't there is it? It's no more than a space filler. As a visual hammer it's a total vacuum.
Well we'll be taking back by voting, votes which go in the ballot box.... tenuous.
You do understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts, don't you?
Translation. You found out you were using the wrong word, and to cover your embarrassment you assume the Alice In Wonderland position.
Nope. It's the descriptive attitude to lexicography. It's well established what "retweet" means here, and the fact that you hate it just encourages it.
Of course, you could stop. But I guess you can stop any time you want?
Humanoid pincers holding up a metallic slogan to blot out the sun.
Unless Orwell wrote an episode of "Star Trek", that's probably the wrong adjective...
If Orwell had lived long enough, he would have gotten around to it, I'm sure...
Orwell's 1984 was explicitly influenced by reading We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, which is far more sci-fi, impressively so for 1921. No robot claws in it that I recall. But if I could meet one fictional character, it'd have to be a toss-up between I-330 and Thackeray's Becky Sharp. An immaculately vivid characterisation, even if not's someone I could bring myself to like.
"We" is an astonishing work. A very mathematical book as well as a disturbing dystophian work.
Is it true that almost 50% of immigrants to the UK are from outside of the EU?
It's more than 50% on the latest figures
and yet strangely we have not been able to reduce this figure to 10s of 1000s despite HAVING COMPLETE CONTROL.
I think that is a "can't be arsed issue" to be honest. Post Leave, they had better be arsed.
Shame Boris is in favour of migration then.
He is, but he is also in favour of democratic control of immigration.
No he isn't. He's peddling a prospectus on the basis of reducing immigration when he has no intention of doing so. That is toxic for democracy.
Not quite. What he has said is it will be up to parliament/government to decide.
It will, and if we don't like it we can throw them out.
On the other hand we have a government promising to get immigration down to 100,000 or less and hasn't even managed that with non EU immigration. That is very toxic to democracy.
Comments
'"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
They are NOT standing on a manifesto and coming up with a number, that's for a future government to do after we've taken back control...
I think LEAVE was thrown at the start of that part of the debate from the BNP donation thing and they didn't really recover.
Doubt it made any difference though.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/eu-referendum-debate-sadiq-khan-and-ruth-davidson-give-remain-punch-it-needs
She was benched after the ITV debate. In the words of Clem, not up to it.
Won't matter though, unless they win.
I am a little surprised Khan has been deemed to do so well by some. Bland with moments of interest and some stumbles.
Stuart was the best of the Leavers I thought.
I'd narrow down your tweet list if I was you.
As an extremely unenthusiastic Remainer I can at least comfort myself that I'm again on the opposite side from Farage, Johnson, Gove, Forsyth, UKIP, The Telegraph, The Mail, The Express, Galloway, and all the hideous far right groups that support Leave.
Overall I'd say Leave had the more fluent panellists, but I never want to hear 'take back control' ever again.
Leadsom - fluent but too repetitive
Gisela - strong but could have played more of her Labour side
Boris - commanded the stage, superb ending
Davidson - strong, confident but very angry. Definitely future potential
Khan - shouty, pointing, nasty. A pity he's mayor of London
Frances - clearly heartfelt and serious.
I'd score it as a draw. How many watched?
It's like the thing about Australia having more immigrants than we do with their points based system... Well yes that's true but only because that is what Australia has CHOSEN to do that. That's the whole point.
It's about taking back control.
Humanoid pincers holding up a metallic slogan to blot out the sun.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
Revealing...
And that you bother to copy it.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight
Khan came across very poorly. Playground politician.
"Leadsom was born in Aylesbury and attended Tonbridge Girls' Grammar School before reading Political Science at the University of Warwick."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Leadsom
We have assumed control...
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_(Collector)/Battle_Quotes
just replace "Shepard" with "Juncker"
I've been trying to envisage a way that @RuthDavidsonMSP could become party leader at Westminster. Hard to see how but she'd be formidable
But as you're now interested in substance perhaps you can give us a tweet on Osborne's £194,000,000,000 of over-borrowing.
Speaking as a provincial Englishman myself, it does seem as if we were well represented. Though of all the people up there the Non-English Ruth Davidson represented me and my views the best.
"Nuclear missile ready!" (Heavy Russian accent)
Even more revealing...
The referendum will not be to elect Team Leave to government, it will be to instruct our current government to get us out of the EU.
I wish they'd been more on how much of our law/regulation/legislation comes from the EU, but everything has been touched upon.
And is unable to comment on the substance.
Brand Name
Vote Leave - is a category description not a brand name. Everyone knows it's Vote Leave, so why waste your brand name telling them again?
Stronger In - is better. At least it's conveying a benefit.
Tag Line
Vote Leave Take Control - My main issue here is that I don't think people have voted to 'take control' of anything since pre-1945. Even the Thatcher era was pretty much wanting her to take control, not the general populace. We want to be looked after, not to have more to do.
What is Remain's tag line? Total fail as far as I'm concerned as I don't even know it
Visual Hammer
Box with a slit - again, what on earth is the point? Wasted opportunity; I've seen designs from the Speccy, to Conhome, to Brexit the Movie, several times more effective.
Big IN thing - not particularly inspired, attempt to be patriotic, IN is always more comforting than being OUT.
As to what I'd do with the tag line, I'd have really liked the campaigns to be called 'Yes' and 'No', because I really loved the slogan, 'If not No, when?'. I've not come up with one I liked as much for Leave.
I did come up with a few suggestions - one example being the now legendary 'Be Leave' (not claiming to be the first, or even the first on PB, but I do know I hadn't seen it when I suggested it). It's catchy, and has a nice feel about it, but doesn't deliver that hardcore message into the brain. The tag line that worked in Denmark was 'More EU - No thank you'.
REMAIN 41 (-1)
LEAVE 40 (-4)
N=1,176
Fieldwork post-#BBCDebate
#EUDebate #EUreferendum #Brexit
You could criticise the contents of the SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland, but they were at least in a position where they could credibly offer one. I think if the government were supporting leave they'd be streets ahead in the polls as they would be able to definitively lay out the way forward, thus neutralising the risk and uncertainty argument.
You do understand that words can have different meanings in different contexts, don't you?
What we might call the SeanT dilemma
@KateEMcCann: Ruth's line - and a good one too. Haven't heard it from Remain camp up until this point. https://t.co/uMEYlZEQKT
No. They can't.
As the kids are saying today, EPIC FAIL
It is one of the reasons I am out.
"Take back control" is excellent: it's proactive, and people like to be in control - of their futures especially.
For me, the best poster for Leave has been The Spectator's front cover - the UK butterfly emerging from the EU box: 'Out - and into the world'. That would have been a positive message.
It is all rather integrated.
Of course, you could stop. But I guess you can stop any time you want?
It will, and if we don't like it we can throw them out.
On the other hand we have a government promising to get immigration down to 100,000 or less and hasn't even managed that with non EU immigration. That is very toxic to democracy.
Tragic