Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
Not really but I do think that people should vote on this. It is not easy, it is not clear cut and there has been a hell of a lot more heat than light on both sides but it is important. Very.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
The Spectator's butterfly is a very effective image. I used it on FB when I told my friends I was backing Leave.
As for being in control, I think people people like to be in control of their acne. It remains to be seen whether they want more control over their political and economical destiny. 'Control' is a proxy for uncertainty. There is a security blanket element in signing over control, though it's a false security.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
If you abstain, you'll regret it.
The last EU referendum was 1975.
Yeah probably, but unless there is one vote in it, my vote won't make much of a difference.
The Spectator's butterfly is a very effective image. I used it on FB when I told my friends I was backing Leave.
As for being in control, I think people people like to be in control of their acne. It remains to be seen whether they want more control over their political and economic destiny. 'Control' is a proxy for uncertainty. There is a security blanket element in signing over control, though it's a false security.
Your earlier post on where the campaign could have been improved was an eye-opener. Thanks for that.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I'm not obsessed about it guv'nor, honest!!
OK. I'll let it stand.... headbanging is definitely not encouraged any sign of turning mensch and then it's serious.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I have been sucked into this against my wishes. A couple of months ago the fiscally dry, socially liberal not obsessed about Europe party suited me perfectly. I have lapsed but I will try to go cold turkey (woops, there I go again) on Friday.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I'm not obsessed about it guv'nor, honest!!
OK. I'll let it stand.... headbanging is definitely not encouraged any sign of turning mensch and then it's serious.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I have been sucked into this against my wishes. A couple of months ago the fiscally dry, socially liberal not obsessed about Europe party suited me perfectly. I have lapsed but I will try to go cold turkey (woops, there I go again) on Friday.
To be fair, the easiest way for the Tory party (and even the FDSLNOAE Tories) to stop talking about the EU is for us to Leave.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... b) It's cheaper for Philip to phone home when he visits Corfu... c) Royal tiaras are now standardized across Europe...
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I have been sucked into this against my wishes. A couple of months ago the fiscally dry, socially liberal not obsessed about Europe party suited me perfectly. I have lapsed but I will try to go cold turkey (woops, there I go again) on Friday.
To be fair, the easiest way for the Tory party (and even the FDSLNOAE Tories) to stop talking about the EU is for us to Leave.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I have been sucked into this against my wishes. A couple of months ago the fiscally dry, socially liberal not obsessed about Europe party suited me perfectly. I have lapsed but I will try to go cold turkey (woops, there I go again) on Friday.
Given the lack of Europe obsession in our party, any splits will be swiftly healed...
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I have been sucked into this against my wishes. A couple of months ago the fiscally dry, socially liberal not obsessed about Europe party suited me perfectly. I have lapsed but I will try to go cold turkey (woops, there I go again) on Friday.
Given the lack of Europe obsession in our party, any splits will be swiftly healed...
Yes and we will be back to full strength at, was it 6?
The Sun wants us to " Believe in Britain " but will happily damage our constitutional Monarchy to pursue it's own agenda.
The Sun has never supported the Monarchy. Occassionally exploited it, never supported it.
If it's readers would let it I've no doubt Murdoch's Sun would be overtly republican - so from their point of view what's not to like about a front page that damages both the monarchy and REMAIN?
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I have been sucked into this against my wishes. A couple of months ago the fiscally dry, socially liberal not obsessed about Europe party suited me perfectly. I have lapsed but I will try to go cold turkey (woops, there I go again) on Friday.
Given the lack of Europe obsession in our party, any splits will be swiftly healed...
Yes and we will be back to full strength at, was it 6?
Quality not quantity... ask the lib dens.... oh maybe not
Germany's @BILD bets £10k on Remain to win #EUref as want UK to stay. Will spend winnings on free drinks via @Tanithttps://t.co/a7DzTqCrwk
If they wanted us to stay, Merkel could have been a bit more flexible in the negotiations...
Absolutely. It wouldn't have taken much for me to be voting differently but I really do not like my PM or my country being treated with contempt, even when he is behaving like a dork. It is why that comment from Obama severely rankled too.
The Spectator's butterfly is a very effective image. I used it on FB when I told my friends I was backing Leave.
As for being in control, I think people people like to be in control of their acne. It remains to be seen whether they want more control over their political and economical destiny. 'Control' is a proxy for uncertainty. There is a security blanket element in signing over control, though it's a false security.
I would have done the same if I'd wanted to make public who I was backing. Or had any friends ;-)
"Take back control" works because trust in politicians is at an all-time low and there's the localism/devolution trend too. Of course, everyone knows taking back control in this context merely means taking the control from bureaucrats/politicians in Brussels and giving it to bureaucrats/politicians in Westminster, but some voters will think 'it's a start' at least.
Even if people deep-down don't want the responsibility of having control, they still tell themselves/others that they do, getting control of a situation is still something they aspire to, or at least like to be seen aspiring to. And in this context there is the comfort blanket of massive collective responsibility!
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
I'm not sure where you got the impression I was voting remain?
From your recent comments. Apologies if I misunderstood.
I'm wavering between abstaining and leave. Maybe you think abstaining is as good as voting remain though
I'm not going to have to withdraw the whip am I from you in our new tory party....
I have been sucked into this against my wishes. A couple of months ago the fiscally dry, socially liberal not obsessed about Europe party suited me perfectly. I have lapsed but I will try to go cold turkey (woops, there I go again) on Friday.
To be fair, the easiest way for the Tory party (and even the FDSLNOAE Tories) to stop talking about the EU is for us to Leave.
Yes. As far as I can see, at that point to debate and division is over, and then it is all about who wants to bear grudges. If we remain it is both the former and latter in play.
The Times poll basically shows not much effect. Results not shown by others (from Sam Coates via the Guardian blog)::
How will you vote Remain 41% (-4) Leave 40% (-5) Not sure 8% (-2) (not clear where the other 11% went!)
This is the same sample that thought Leave won by 5 points. They started the evening on 45/45/10 (through deliberate selection, though some might have lied).
What do don't knows think
(*tiny* sample of 115)
Who won? R 38% L 45% DK 17%
How will you vote? R 11% L 16% DK 73%
Meh.
My reading was they had split 45/45 in previous polls in which they had taken part , not just before the debate. So the changes could have been larger pre debate.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... b) It's cheaper for Philip to phone home when he visits Corfu... c) Royal tiaras are now standardized across Europe...
If the vote is Leave -
1. No French Toast 2. No French fries 3. No French kissing.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... b) It's cheaper for Philip to phone home when he visits Corfu... c) Royal tiaras are now standardized across Europe...
If the vote is Leave -
1. No French Toast 2. No French fries 3. No French kissing.
The Spectator's butterfly is a very effective image. I used it on FB when I told my friends I was backing Leave.
As for being in control, I think people people like to be in control of their acne. It remains to be seen whether they want more control over their political and economical destiny. 'Control' is a proxy for uncertainty. There is a security blanket element in signing over control, though it's a false security.
I would have done the same if I'd wanted to make public who I was backing. Or had any friends ;-)
"Take back control" works because trust in politicians is at an all-time low and there's the localism/devolution trend too. Of course, everyone knows taking back control in this context merely means taking the control from bureaucrats/politicians in Brussels and giving it to bureaucrats/politicians in Westminster, but some voters will think 'it's a start' at least.
Even if people deep-down don't want the responsibility of having control, they still tell themselves/others that they do, getting control of a situation is still something they aspire to. And in this context there is the comfort blanket of massive collective responsibility!
Personally I think it was probably intended to be a bit of an immigration message.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... b) It's cheaper for Philip to phone home when he visits Corfu... c) Royal tiaras are now standardized across Europe...
If the vote is Leave -
1. No French Toast 2. No French fries 3. No French kissing.
It's nonsense, ' they imputed the undecided would split 3/1 for remain based on previous referendums'
Past performance is not a guide to future returns in this world either?
It's a fairly broad assumption that tilts the result heavily in one direction. A number of polls have asked push questions and Remain have a slight lead in those, but not 3/1. Lots of undecideds won't vote as all.
The Spectator's butterfly is a very effective image. I used it on FB when I told my friends I was backing Leave.
As for being in control, I think people people like to be in control of their acne. It remains to be seen whether they want more control over their political and economic destiny. 'Control' is a proxy for uncertainty. There is a security blanket element in signing over control, though it's a false security.
Your earlier post on where the campaign could have been improved was an eye-opener. Thanks for that.
@gabyhinsliff: FWIW, the Davidson line that stuck in my head was that your decision in this Euref could (if you get it wrong) cost someone else their job
@gabyhinsliff: It won't convince a single dedicated Leaver but wonder if it might not play with a certain kind of wavering voter more than you think
That Ruth Davidson line also struck me too, it will resonate strongly with economically risk averse women voters. But like David Cameron's short speech earlier today, I suspect this was another direct pitch to undecided voters in the final days of the campaign.
It's about the uncodified checks and balances in the UK's organically developed Constitution. #1 We have a Free Press. #2 We have a Constitutional Monarchy. #3 Point #2 requires the press to exercise voluntary restraint over point #1. If the country's most popular print paper decides it'll no longer respect that compact it's unBritish as currently defined. I appreciate Murdoch is unBritish. It's the rank hypocricy I'm commenting on. Dark days indeed.
I'm mixed race, female, left-wing, a 19-year-old student - and yes, I really am voting for Brexit
We would do well to remember that the actual EU is a group of powerful bureaucrats stuffed inside a neo-liberal institution, who are poised to sign TTIP - the terrifying EU-US trade deal that threatens so much of what we stand for as a socialist country
I'm mixed race, female, left-wing, a 19-year-old student - and yes, I really am voting for Brexit
We would do well to remember that the actual EU is a group of powerful bureaucrats stuffed inside a neo-liberal institution, who are poised to sign TTIP - the terrifying EU-US trade deal that threatens so much of what we stand for as a socialist country
The Times poll basically shows not much effect. Results not shown by others (from Sam Coates via the Guardian blog)::
How will you vote Remain 41% (-4) Leave 40% (-5) Not sure 8% (-2) (not clear where the other 11% went!)
This is the same sample that thought Leave won by 5 points. They started the evening on 45/45/10 (through deliberate selection, though some might have lied).
What do don't knows think
(*tiny* sample of 115)
Who won? R 38% L 45% DK 17%
How will you vote? R 11% L 16% DK 73%
Meh.
My reading was they had split 45/45 in previous polls in which they had taken part , not just before the debate. So the changes could have been larger pre debate.
My understanding, though I might be wrong, is that the applicants to attend were asked if they were for Leave, Remain or undecided, and a selection of each was made to ensure that the balance at the start of the debate was 45/45/10. Thus it's definitely not a random or representative sampl of the general public. What it might have shown was a shift in opinion due to the debate. But of the sample of 1000, it appears to have been Undecided to Leave: 18 Ubdecided to Remain: 12 Leave to Remain (net): 10 (producing the shift from +0 to +1 to Remain despite the +0.5 from the Undecideds) Mystery disappearance of 11%: 120
5 minutes ago Misstattooed Currently the mirror doesn't seem to be reflecting their readers views! She annoyed me more than all the rest. I'll be voting to leave. ReplyShare01
7 minutes ago MarieWeyman Had to switch off because of her inane ramblings. Ridiculous woman. ReplyShare
Interesting that both comments finding Ruth Davidson annoying are from women. I didn't "get" her appeal in this debate, either and found her a big turn-off whenever she was speaking. Sadiq Khan was the best on the Remain team, as far as I'm concerned although he does have a bit of modern politician "blandness" about him.
I have several anecdotes from the Indy Ref, GE and Holyrood election campaigns that I could share that clearly show that Ruth Davidson has managed to impress women voters across the political divide. But I will just point to the fact that Ruth managed to achieve what other Conservative Leavers have failed to do in over twenty years, and that is persuade a lot of Scottish voters to either vote Conservative for the first time, or the first time in many years.
I put a bet on Ruth Davidson being the next UK Conservative Leader a long time ago at amazing odds. But I have absolutely no doubt now that I will happily lose that bet, and because unlike Boris on so many occasions, she really has made it clear that she won't leave Scottish politics. A big gain for Holyrood, but a real loss to the wider UK Conservative Westminster party. And for all the #Brexit Conservative MPs who might swing behind Boris or any of the others in Vote Leave in a Leadership contest, I will definitely have some money on the candidate that gets Ruth's backing.
The lady is 88 her husband had signed them up years ago without her knowledge. She didn't even know she had been in bnp so very unfair smear
Really ? So, she was married to a BNP supporter for many, many years. For example, could somebody live with a Nazi without supporting them ?
ex BNP supporter not the same as Nazi, and we don't how long he was a BNP member. Also he was an ex BNP member. Aren't people allowed to atone for their mistakes?
I was thinking perhaps they would back Remain, in which case the Sun might have been on course to lose its first British general election or referendum since 1974. But with both the Sun and the Daily Mail backing Leave, and according to the polls a swing to Leave since the aftermath of Jo Cox's murder, I reckon Leave will win. The last-minute swing to the status quo doesn't apply here. Unless tomorrow's three polls (ComRes [t], Opinium [o], TNS [o]) show an average 1.5%+ swing to Remain (DK-WV-PNTSs disregarded), I'll stay invested in Leave, even if admittedly it's a gamble.
5 minutes ago Misstattooed Currently the mirror doesn't seem to be reflecting their readers views! She annoyed me more than all the rest. I'll be voting to leave. ReplyShare01
7 minutes ago MarieWeyman Had to switch off because of her inane ramblings. Ridiculous woman. ReplyShare
Interesting that both comments finding Ruth Davidson annoying are from women. I didn't "get" her appeal in this debate, either and found her a big turn-off whenever she was speaking. Sadiq Khan was the best on the Remain team, as far as I'm concerned although he does have a bit of modern politician "blandness" about him.
I have several anecdotes from the Indy Ref, GE and Holyrood election campaigns that I could share that clearly show that Ruth Davidson has managed to impress women voters across the political divide. But I will just point to the fact that Ruth managed to achieve what other Conservative Leavers have failed to do in over twenty years, and that is persuade a lot of Scottish voters to either vote Conservative for the first time, or the first time in many years.
I put a bet on Ruth Davidson being the next UK Conservative Leader a long time ago at amazing odds. But I have absolutely no doubt now that I will happily lose that bet, and because unlike Boris on so many occasions, she really has made it clear that she won't leave Scottish politics. A big gain for Holyrood, but a real loss to the wider UK Conservative Westminster party. And for all the #Brexit Conservative MPs who might swing behind Boris or any of the others in Vote Leave in a Leadership contest, I will definitely have some money on the candidate that gets Ruth's backing.
Er no, Ruth Davidson not leaving Scotland isn't a loss to wider UK Westminster party, because someone effective has to lead north of the border to grow the party, and indeed keep Scotland in the union.
If she just left, then that could wither the party just like Labour have managed to do.
Granted, if there were no devolution and she was leader of a major Scottish city council, she could get a Westminster seat and be great, but with it, great talent has to stay behind.
I'm mixed race, female, left-wing, a 19-year-old student - and yes, I really am voting for Brexit
We would do well to remember that the actual EU is a group of powerful bureaucrats stuffed inside a neo-liberal institution, who are poised to sign TTIP - the terrifying EU-US trade deal that threatens so much of what we stand for as a socialist country
With the death of Scottish Labour and the overall collapse of the Lib Dems the Conservative Party was the last man standing for many unionists north of the border.
She's done well, but the post SINDY circumstances were very favorable to her
Let me john the ranks of those who find Ruth Davidson unimpressive. I thought tonight was one of her better performances. However her summing up was poor and uninspiring compared to Boris.
If the polled undecideds verdict for Leave on the debate is a valid sample then it would be the summing up which swung a debate which otherwise the Remain trio won pretty clearly.
With the death of Scottish Labour and the overall collapse of the Lib Dems the Conservative Party was the last man standing for many unionists north of the border.
She's done well, but the post SINDY circumstances were very favorable to her
It's about the uncodified checks and balances in the UK's organically developed Constitution. #1 We have a Free Press. #2 We have a Constitutional Monarchy. #3 Point #2 requires the press to exercise voluntary restraint over point #1. If the country's most popular print paper decides it'll no longer respect that compact it's unBritish as currently defined. I appreciate Murdoch is unBritish. It's the rank hypocricy I'm commenting on. Dark days indeed.
Not every collection of checks and balances makes a "constitution". A constitution is a set of laws that are higher than other laws, and which ordinary, lower laws may not contradict without a separate and tougher procedure being followed to change something in the higher laws. Britain hasn't got a constitution. Or if you want to say it has, you have to argue it with respect to some piece of EU law that at this time of night I can't remember. The idea that Britain has got an "organic" or "unwritten" or "very clever" constitution was thought up by hangers-on of the royal family in the 19th century. A constitution must be written.
The lady is 88 her husband had signed them up years ago without her knowledge. She didn't even know she had been in bnp so very unfair smear
Really ? So, she was married to a BNP supporter for many, many years. For example, could somebody live with a Nazi without supporting them ?
ex BNP supporter not the same as Nazi, and we don't how long he was a BNP member. Also he was an ex BNP member. Aren't people allowed to atone for their mistakes?
Your own common sense gives you the answer.
"Shock News for Leave: Jonathan King, Harry Roberts and the Brighton Bomber voting for Brexit..."
Forget Project Fear/Project Smear and just whistle this happy tune:-
I used to walk in the shade With all my blues on parade Now I'm not afraid That this rover crossed over
If I never had a cent I'd be rich as Rockefeller Gold dust at my feet On the sunny side of the street!
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Now... I never knew that, and I suspect neither did Her Madge...
It's about the uncodified checks and balances in the UK's organically developed Constitution. #1 We have a Free Press. #2 We have a Constitutional Monarchy. #3 Point #2 requires the press to exercise voluntary restraint over point #1. If the country's most popular print paper decides it'll no longer respect that compact it's unBritish as currently defined. I appreciate Murdoch is unBritish. It's the rank hypocricy I'm commenting on. Dark days indeed.
Not every collection of checks and balances makes a "constitution". A constitution is a set of laws that are higher than other laws, and which ordinary, lower laws may not contradict without a separate and tougher procedure being followed to change something in the higher laws. Britain hasn't got a constitution. Or if you want to say it has, you have to argue it with respect to some piece of EU law that at this time of night I can't remember. The idea that Britain has got an "organic" or "unwritten" or "very clever" constitution was thought up by hangers-on of the royal family in the 19th century. A constitution must be written.
This is a debate about the meaning of " constitution ". Various Dictionary definitions suggests both our usages of it are perfectly reasonable. I used " organically " which is a bit poncy I suppose. I meant uncodified.
No. The problem for Leave there is that this is not a General Election, they are not offering a policy platform.
This is a referendum where we tell the government to Leave the EU, and the government then develop policy to that instruction.
They have offered a policy platform.
And if they win, BoZo is the one who has to develop the policy platform that does NOT deliver what he was selling tonight
No, they've highlighted possible benefits of leaving the EU.
The referendum will not be to elect Team Leave to government, it will be to instruct our current government to get us out of the EU.
Quite. This is the big difference between IndyRef and this one - the change campaign is not led by the governing party.
You could criticise the contents of the SNP's prospectus for an independent Scotland, but they were at least in a position where they could credibly offer one. I think if the government were supporting leave they'd be streets ahead in the polls as they would be able to definitively lay out the way forward, thus neutralising the risk and uncertainty argument.
Did you read the SNP Government's White Paper, particularly their projections for the Oil&Gas revenue?! Well, 165K+ job losses in that industry later, their projections lie in tatters alongside their prospectus for an independent Scotland which is now looking far from credible!
And like the Scottish political Leaders at Holyrood, finally some cross party consensus in my extended family who are all voting Remain. The normal service political bickering will no doubt resume on Friday!
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Now... I never knew that, and I suspect neither did Her Madge...
There's also the ESA (European Space Agency) with long-standing EU stalwarts Norway and Switzerland among its members...
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Now... I never knew that, and I suspect neither did Her Madge...
Eurovision is organised by the European Broadcasting Union. We're one of the ' Big 5 ' who automatically qualify for the final because of the size of our financial contributions. I'd recommend the annual Palm Sunday and Sunday before Christmas Choral marathons the EU also broadcast. Their on Radio 3.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Now... I never knew that, and I suspect neither did Her Madge...
There's also the ESA (European Space Agency) with long-standing EU stalwarts Norway and Switzerland among its members...
ESA isn't an EU body either. Again were significant contributors to the budget which ' buys ' influence over the programme and siting of some facilities here. It's almost as if we've been in at the start of all these pieces of international architecture !
Yes it is well established, and none of my fans have worked it out yet.
Tragic
Do you have any fans?
Yes, me. And for those on here that don't like ScottP's retweets, just imagine you had money on a political event or an election, and he wasn't about to retweet some of the most relevant up to date political news as quickly as he does on this site?! Andrea Parma used to be incredible fast at updating us on political facts and info on this site, ScottP provides the same service via twitter, a site which has now eclipsed the MSM for the speed of its news delivery.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Australia also participates & came second last time.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Australia also participates & came second last time.
Anyway. I suspect the briefing Nick Watt reported from Leave about the choreography for after polls closing through to the Declaration is far more significant than tonight's debate. Fasten your seat belts everyone.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Now... I never knew that, and I suspect neither did Her Madge...
Eurovision is organised by the European Broadcasting Union. We're one of the ' Big 5 ' who automatically qualify for the final because of the size of our financial contributions. I'd recommend the annual Palm Sunday and Sunday before Christmas Choral marathons the EU also broadcast. Their on Radio 3.
Anyway. I suspect the briefing Nick Watt reported from Leave about the choreography for after polls closing through to the Declaration is far more significant than tonight's debate. Fasten your seat belts everyone.
Anyway. I suspect the briefing Nick Watt reported from Leave about the choreography for after polls closing through to the Declaration is far more significant than tonight's debate. Fasten your seat belts everyone.
Missed that - what was it?
Sorry Carlotta, it was Nick Watt reporting on News Night. Broadly. #1 Boris and Gove will say almost nothing before the formal national declaration in Manchester. Gisela Stuart will speak for Leave at that event. #2 If Leave wins enough Leave backing Tory MPs will immeadiately write to Cameron asking him to *stay on* but also asking he delays invoking Article 50. #3 The letter won't say it publiclly but Watt says if Cameron tries to invoke Article 50 straight away they'll be cabinet resignations and he'll be removed straight away.....
What the bellow suggests Carlotta is that (a) the Gove/Boris axis really does want to delay Article 50 invokation and pre negotiate. ( B ) they want Cameron to front at least the first few months.
Anyway. I suspect the briefing Nick Watt reported from Leave about the choreography for after polls closing through to the Declaration is far more significant than tonight's debate. Fasten your seat belts everyone.
Missed that - what was it?
Sorry Carlotta, it was Nick Watt reporting on News Night. Broadly. #1 Boris and Gove will say almost nothing before the formal national declaration in Manchester. Gisela Stuart will speak for Leave at that event. #2 If Leave wins enough Leave backing Tory MPs will immeadiately write to Cameron asking him to *stay on* but also asking he delays invoking Article 50. #3 The letter won't say it publiclly but Watt says if Cameron tries to invoke Article 50 straight away they'll be cabinet resignations and he'll be removed straight away.....
But they can't "remove him straight away" - there needs to be a vote, then there needs to be nominations, possibly several rounds of MPs voting before it goes to the membership in the country.
What is it with LEAVErs not wanting to LEAVE? A majority (excl DK) of LEAVE voters want out ASAP and damn the consequences. I thought this was all about democracy & sovereignty?
What the bellow suggests Carlotta is that (a) the Gove/Boris axis really does want to delay Article 50 invokation and pre negotiate. ( B ) they want Cameron to front at least the first few months.
Of course - they want Cameron associated with the initial turmoil - not Boris.
And how long exactly do they expect the "cumbersome beaurocratic" EU to take to "pre-negotiate"?
They'll tell him to Foxtrot Oscar and no discussions until Article 50....
I am baffled by this 'get rid of elites' pitch that is implied. We won't be beholden to unelected European bureaucrats, and that's great, but the same people will make up our political class
And the executive parasite class, the public sector fatcat class etc.
'"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Desperate attempt by Mail to paint this as anti-politics and anti-elites. Is there anyone in Britain more elite than Boris Johnson (Eton, Oxford, President of the Union, Bullingdon, Spectator editor, Telegraph columnist etc etc)? His sister even runs The Lady for crying out loud.
Anyway. I suspect the briefing Nick Watt reported from Leave about the choreography for after polls closing through to the Declaration is far more significant than tonight's debate. Fasten your seat belts everyone.
Missed that - what was it?
Sorry Carlotta, it was Nick Watt reporting on News Night. Broadly. #1 Boris and Gove will say almost nothing before the formal national declaration in Manchester. Gisela Stuart will speak for Leave at that event. #2 If Leave wins enough Leave backing Tory MPs will immeadiately write to Cameron asking him to *stay on* but also asking he delays invoking Article 50. #3 The letter won't say it publiclly but Watt says if Cameron tries to invoke Article 50 straight away they'll be cabinet resignations and he'll be removed straight away.....
But they can't "remove him straight away" - there needs to be a vote, then there needs to be nominations, possibly several rounds of MPs voting before it goes to the membership in the country.
What is it with LEAVErs not wanting to LEAVE? A majority (excl DK) of LEAVE voters want out ASAP and damn the consequences. I thought this was all about democracy & sovereignty?
Invoking Article 50 is a prerogative power. A real constitutional dilemma for civil servants if a PM says "do X " but there is published evidence suggesting he no longer has the confidence of house. My reading of it is Leave are offering Cameron a deal. A elongated and dignified exit on some of his own terms in exchange for carrying part of the can for the inevitable delay in invoking Article 50. I'd tell them to shove it. But then I'm not a professional politician with responsibilities to the country and a reputation in history to secure.
Can anyone point me to a political party or pressure group that advocates the UK joining a federal EU/the euro/Schengen? I thought of the European Movement but their website is all referendum.
All the parties backing Remain are effectively backing the UK being part of a federal EU.
No they aren't. I am totally confident that there would be a referendum again if we were still in the EU and this was going to happen.
You think that there would be another referendum and you are still voting remain? Masochist doesn't begin to describe it. Are you sure you are not looking for a more, eh, exotic site?
RobD is correct, we were never going to enter the Eurozone on the back of Gordon Brown's Treasury five economic tests to assess the UK's readiness to join the Euro. We didn't join the Euro because there was never a right time for Tony Blair PM to call a Referendum on the issue where he stood any chance of winning that argument with the British people. C'mon David, how many Scots happily tactically voted SNP in 2007/11 in the full knowledge that they didn't support Independence and knew there would have to be a referendum first?
What the bellow suggests Carlotta is that (a) the Gove/Boris axis really does want to delay Article 50 invokation and pre negotiate. ( B ) they want Cameron to front at least the first few months.
Of course - they want Cameron associated with the initial turmoil - not Boris.
And how long exactly do they expect the "cumbersome beaurocratic" EU to take to "pre-negotiate"?
They'll tell him to Foxtrot Oscar and no discussions until Article 50....
Well I agree with you Carlotta. A pincer movement of the US and Franco/German deep states will want to make Brexit as difficult as possible to deter others and a disorderly collapse. We'll be in a relatively weak negotiating position. But the polls say half the country disagrees.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Now... I never knew that, and I suspect neither did Her Madge...
There's also the ESA (European Space Agency) with long-standing EU stalwarts Norway and Switzerland among its members...
ESA isn't an EU body either. Again were significant contributors to the budget which ' buys ' influence over the programme and siting of some facilities here. It's almost as if we've been in at the start of all these pieces of international architecture !
CERN too is nothing to do with the EU, and Britain was a founding member in 1954. Then there are the Bologna process and the European Higher Education Area - both nothing to do with the EU. And the Council of Europe, founded in 1949 - nothing to do with the EU, even if in 1955 it adopted the "European Flag" which the EEC later pinched.
That front page in today's Sun - WOW!! Does anyone think the Sun are going to lose this? The story is also covered in the Torygraph, the Spectator, the Daily Mail, and the Mirror. And the three good reasons for staying in the EU are er...er...er...
Let me john the ranks of those who find Ruth Davidson unimpressive. I thought tonight was one of her better performances. However her summing up was poor and uninspiring compared to Boris.
If the polled undecideds verdict for Leave on the debate is a valid sample then it would be the summing up which swung a debate which otherwise the Remain trio won pretty clearly.
Lets just tune into FM's Questions over the next few months to see how Ruth Davidson fares against Nicola Sturgeon, the latter being someone who so often gets rattled and resorts to insulting her opponents when under pressure because of her Government's record in Office.
a) The Song Contest. It'd be a shame to be excluded. Mind you, if Israel can get in... .
Eurovision =/= the EU
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Now... I never knew that, and I suspect neither did Her Madge...
There's also the ESA (European Space Agency) with long-standing EU stalwarts Norway and Switzerland among its members...
ESA isn't an EU body either. Again were significant contributors to the budget which ' buys ' influence over the programme and siting of some facilities here. It's almost as if we've been in at the start of all these pieces of international architecture !
CERN too is nothing to do with the EU, and Britain was a founding member in 1954. Then there are the Bologna process and the European Higher Education Area - both nothing to do with the EU. And the Council of Europe, founded in 1949 - nothing to do with the EU, even if in 1955 it adopted the "European Flag" which the EEC later pinched.
That front page in today's Sun - WOW!! Does anyone think the Sun are going to lose this? The story is also covered in the Torygraph, the Spectator, the Daily Mail, and the Mirror. And the three good reasons for staying in the EU are er...er...er...
If REMAIN do win, the influence of the "dead tree press" will be, well, dead....and Dacre's Knighthood for the birds...
Invoking Article 50 is a prerogative power. A real constitutional dilemma for civil servants if a PM says "do X " but there is published evidence suggesting he no longer has the confidence of house. My reading of it is Leave are offering Cameron a deal. A elongated and dignified exit on some of his own terms in exchange for carrying part of the can for the inevitable delay in invoking Article 50. I'd tell them to shove it. But then I'm not a professional politician with responsibilities to the country and a reputation in history to secure.
A Mason Verger Premiership: they are perfectly willing to leave him as PM provided he does what he's told when he's told.
Comments
As for being in control, I think people people like to be in control of their acne. It remains to be seen whether they want more control over their political and economical destiny. 'Control' is a proxy for uncertainty. There is a security blanket element in signing over control, though it's a false security.
The last EU referendum was 1975.
Broad church/big tent and all that
And it'll feel good to know you were part of it!
b) It's cheaper for Philip to phone home when he visits Corfu...
c) Royal tiaras are now standardized across Europe...
via @Tanit https://t.co/a7DzTqCrwk
We get what we deserve.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/21/the-labour-case-for-a-leave-vote-in-the-eu-referendum
"Take back control" works because trust in politicians is at an all-time low and there's the localism/devolution trend too. Of course, everyone knows taking back control in this context merely means taking the control from bureaucrats/politicians in Brussels and giving it to bureaucrats/politicians in Westminster, but some voters will think 'it's a start' at least.
Even if people deep-down don't want the responsibility of having control, they still tell themselves/others that they do, getting control of a situation is still something they aspire to, or at least like to be seen aspiring to. And in this context there is the comfort blanket of massive collective responsibility!
YouGov Poll (Undecided Voters):
Who won the debate?
Leave 45%
Remain 38%
Don't Know 17%
Leave Lead 7%
#VoteLeaveTakeControl
1. No French Toast
2. No French fries
3. No French kissing.
On the plus side, no more Citroens or Peugeots.
Leave showing true colour !
A number of polls have asked push questions and Remain have a slight lead in those, but not 3/1. Lots of undecideds won't vote as all.
Undecided to Leave: 18
Ubdecided to Remain: 12
Leave to Remain (net): 10 (producing the shift from +0 to +1 to Remain despite the +0.5 from the Undecideds)
Mystery disappearance of 11%: 120
Thus, meh.
I put a bet on Ruth Davidson being the next UK Conservative Leader a long time ago at amazing odds. But I have absolutely no doubt now that I will happily lose that bet, and because unlike Boris on so many occasions, she really has made it clear that she won't leave Scottish politics. A big gain for Holyrood, but a real loss to the wider UK Conservative Westminster party. And for all the #Brexit Conservative MPs who might swing behind Boris or any of the others in Vote Leave in a Leadership contest, I will definitely have some money on the candidate that gets Ruth's backing.
I was thinking perhaps they would back Remain, in which case the Sun might have been on course to lose its first British general election or referendum since 1974. But with both the Sun and the Daily Mail backing Leave, and according to the polls a swing to Leave since the aftermath of Jo Cox's murder, I reckon Leave will win. The last-minute swing to the status quo doesn't apply here. Unless tomorrow's three polls (ComRes [t], Opinium [o], TNS [o]) show an average 1.5%+ swing to Remain (DK-WV-PNTSs disregarded), I'll stay invested in Leave, even if admittedly it's a gamble.
If she just left, then that could wither the party just like Labour have managed to do.
Granted, if there were no devolution and she was leader of a major Scottish city council, she could get a Westminster seat and be great, but with it, great talent has to stay behind.
She's done well, but the post SINDY circumstances were very favorable to her
And that is why Remain deserves to lose. A willingness to look for ANY distraction rather than sell us the merits of the EU.
If the polled undecideds verdict for Leave on the debate is a valid sample then it would be the summing up which swung a debate which otherwise the Remain trio won pretty clearly.
Watch at 14:25 minutes. "we nned more Europe". They just don't get it. and never will.
"Shock News for Leave: Jonathan King, Harry Roberts and the Brighton Bomber voting for Brexit..."
Forget Project Fear/Project Smear and just whistle this happy tune:-
I used to walk in the shade
With all my blues on parade
Now I'm not afraid
That this rover crossed over
If I never had a cent
I'd be rich as Rockefeller
Gold dust at my feet
On the sunny side of the street!
(*and a bit!)
Eye-witness support that dave told the TRUTH back in April 2016.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/21/turkeys-chief-presidential-adviser-david-cameron-was-our-chief-s/
That £1.4Bn of our money for 'accession support' WAS agreed by dave.
Support Turkish jobs in Britain!
VOTE REMAIN.
Norway, Iceland, Russia, Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus, Bosnia, Albania, Serbia and Montenegro all participate, in addition to Israel...
Be LEAVE!
What is it with LEAVErs not wanting to LEAVE? A majority (excl DK) of LEAVE voters want out ASAP and damn the consequences. I thought this was all about democracy & sovereignty?
And how long exactly do they expect the "cumbersome beaurocratic" EU to take to "pre-negotiate"?
They'll tell him to Foxtrot Oscar and no discussions until Article 50....
Then there are the Bologna process and the European Higher Education Area - both nothing to do with the EU.
And the Council of Europe, founded in 1949 - nothing to do with the EU, even if in 1955 it adopted the "European Flag" which the EEC later pinched.
That front page in today's Sun - WOW!! Does anyone think the Sun are going to lose this? The story is also covered in the Torygraph, the Spectator, the Daily Mail, and the Mirror. And the three good reasons for staying in the EU are er...er...er...
New thread
Yes we know you HATE us LEAVERS
ppp