'A proposal to let in Turkey without meeting all the criteria would be a very clear reason for veto, not even a controversial one.'
There was no veto when several of the countries that joined the Euro failed to meet the basic requirements.
When the French & Dutch rejected the EU constitution the EU just changed the name of the document.
If Brussels want Turkey in the EU you know perfectly well they will find a way, whether that be watering down the conditions or finding a way around a possible veto.
What I meant was that any country could use it as an excuse.
Its not going to happen though, as Turkey is playing the same game. Turkey doesn't really want to join, just has to pretend so that the govt can keep Istanbul onside.
Ruth no match for Boris. Sadiq no match for Gisela. Frances no match for Andrea.
Thought it was a much closer debate than last time. Leave good on the economy, Remain suprisingly good on immigration. Leave perhaps slightly better on the last question.
Stuart excellent in an understated, solid way. Davidson best performer by a country mile (great Boris closer notwithstanding), not everything she tried came off, but I get the hype now. Boris was Boris - he stumbled at times, was pushy and rude, funny and inspiring, he's not great in debates but he brings an element that is very useful. Leadsom - Dull and repetitious, but seemed calm and rational. Khan - not entirely without merit, but not stellar. Grady - She may be a brilliant woman. I wouldn't know, she's bloody awful as a speaker. Furtive, whiny and patronising. Other than that, a good effort (and she cannot help her voice).
It matters not of course, each playing to their own side, and undecideds probably won't see any of it at all, hell Its the first one I've watched and I do care about politics, but nothing terminal for either side.
Anecdote: I saw a WWC neighbour in ex-local authority house near me has taken down his England flag today from his flagpole, and put up an EU flag instead. Drove past it on the way home.
Terrible omen. Feel sick.
The guy owns an EU flag??! Mentalist.
Did think about getting one. Didn't want turds posted through the door. Shy Remainer.
You are of course correct that Turkey is not currently heading in a European direction.
"In our lifetime" is a bit extreme - depends how soon you are planning to die, I suppose, but Bulgaria and Romania came into the EU despite many failings and naysayers saying that it would take decades given their corruption and poor legal and democratic structures. ...
Given a change in electoral direction, and 10 years of Post-Erdoganism, it's hardly inconceivable that Turkey could join the EU.
If EU types want us to believe that Turkey is a non-issue, they should quit saying how much they support Turkish membership in the long run, and quit their silly pretences of progressing accession negotiations in exchange for Turkish cooperation over e.g. the migrant crisis. (Frankly I'd much rather the EU stood up for the democracy and human rights its supporters claim are oh so special to them, and tell Erdogan he's being a dictatorial little **** and accession is shelved until he sorts out his treatment of journalists, political opponents and ethnic minorities. But fat chance of that.)
I'm quite old so 20 years max.
I very much agree with your last para.
Cheers. Yes, from your perspective it may well be a non-issue in your lifetime. I'm not physically in tip-top condition but I do rather hope to live long enough for it to be an issue :-)
To be honest I'm not fussed in particular whether Turkey joins the EU or not. But if it causes the Remain side grief, that's all they deserve for both senior Lab and Con figures for the past goodness-knows-how-many years doing the two-faced "Of course we support Turkish accession!/Of course the Turks aren't going to join, it's a non-issue, anyway don't forget we have a veto and know how to use it!" depending on who their audience is. Doubly so for the failure to stand up to Erdogan as he tests what he can get away with. If Turkish accession is genuinely not in prospect, why not cancel the negotiations for it? If you won't do that, why should we trust that you (or in fact, your successor two or three times removed) is going to make any use of this veto you keep vaunting?
If Remain types are upset that "Leave's lies about Turkey" are costing them votes among the shallow-minded numbskull section of the electorate, I won't be crying for them in sympathy. They have a deeply pro-remain PM who could have neutralised the issue for good, and an EU functionocracy whose grand warblings about human rights would have looked far more impressive if they'd had the moral courage, years ago, to neutralise it for him.
Well-staged Boris finale which will have helped Leave with those who stuck it out to the end. I think Leave edged it, but whether by enough, who knows?
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
Do you now realise this?
You actually like this referendum and wish we'd had it sooner? There speaks a torture porn author.
The referendum has been awful, but we need to have this debate - clearly 50% of people want to leave, what good comes from ignoring that rather than taking it on?
The referendum has been awful because of the people making the case. The 1975 one was, I am told, much more civilised.
Well, older people always say that, don't they?
The thing that makes this debate toxic isn't that the sides disagree or indeed that they have different views of what the evidence is, it is the "you're an ignorant B'stard" "You're a complete racist" argument. It isn't grown up or pleasant. It need not be like that.
My wife's reaction to Boris - empty rhetoric. No substance.
She was shocked to learn that Davidson is a Tory. She would vote for her. Wow.
Ruth is the most unlikely Tory I think in the history of Tories. She is an absolute belter. She carries integrity, humour, down to earthiness, excellent communication, a good voice, and credibility in spades. Scotland produces some bloody good female politicians.
Stuart excellent in an understated, solid way. Davidson best performer by a country mile (great Boris closer notwithstanding), not everything she tried came off, but I get the hype now. Boris was Boris - he stumbled at times, was pushy and rude, funny and inspiring, he's not great in debates but he brings an element that is very useful. Leadsom - Dull and repetitious, but seemed calm and rational. Khan - not entirely without merit, but not stellar. Grady - She may be a brilliant woman. I wouldn't know, she's bloody awful as a speaker. Furtive, whiny and patronising. Other than that, a good effort (and she cannot help her voice).
It matters not of course, each playing to their own side, and undecideds probably won't see any of it at all, hell Its the first one I've watched and I do care about politics, but nothing terminal for either side.
I thought the basic format was broken, with the debate being put on pause so they could have another mini-debate about the debate, during the debate.
Someone asked why Hannan is not up there. I think it may be down to his NHS comments on Fox News a few years ago. A massive weakness which would be badly exposed.
@markchapman: Looking like #fra #eng #ger #esp and #ita all in same half of draw now #euro2016
Wales 60/1...
Hellish group for us.
Doesn't change much for us from last night. Spain play Italy next round so one of them goes out (but yes I would have preferred to be in the other half!)
I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday. It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote. NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.
Blimey! I've just reread my copy of that - no mention at all of how to vote! Go Labour! There is hope for us yet!
Also says that (a) the party knows a significant number of supporters are for leave and (b) we are planning to all still be mates afterwards
He could change the course of history just on the basis of a career calculation.
It has been done before in the UK more than once. See Henry VI for example. Henry VIII is probably the biggest example of career (or at least dynastic, which to him were probably the same thing) ambition that changed the course of English history. I am sure you can think of others there are lots of them running down to modern times.
Mind you, I have offered Mr. Observer a bet that Boris Johnson will not be PM.
I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday. It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote. NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.
Blimey! I've just reread my copy of that - no mention at all of how to vote! Go Labour! There is hope for us yet!
Also says that (a) the party knows a significant number of supporters are for leave and (b) we are planning to all still be mates afterwards
If that isn't a nod for Labour to vote Leave then I don't know what is!
I find Gisela Stuart very odd. Curious manner, or it could be cultural misunderstanding of her german manner.
I thought that after the 1st debate, but the next day I was leafleting (for Leave) on a local council estate, and the people I spoke to thought she was great.
I have just had an email from the Labour party (i paid 3 quid to vote for Jez) reminding me there is an election on Thursday. It says the election is important. It allows me help to find my polling station and suggests I make a plan for when I vote. NO WHERE does it suggest I vote Remain.
Blimey! I've just reread my copy of that - no mention at all of how to vote! Go Labour! There is hope for us yet!
Also says that (a) the party knows a significant number of supporters are for leave and (b) we are planning to all still be mates afterwards
If that isn't a nod for Labour to vote Leave then I don't know what is!
Corbyn really is an closet outer isnt he.... Thats amazing
Living in Scotland we know what a performer Ruth Davidson is. I hope whatever the side of the referendum you're on you can see that she is formidable. A real life back story, served in the forces, articulate. One to watch
@markchapman: Looking like #fra #eng #ger #esp and #ita all in same half of draw now #euro2016
Wales 60/1...
Wow, biggest five sides all the the same half of the draw. Someone's going to be very disappointed to go home early.
Football punting isn't my speciality, but...
Presumably that indicates some EW value on the outsiders in the other half of the tournament?
Bookies still offering 1/2
It would make sense. One team from the "other" side of the draw will definitely make the final, and at least four of the big five sides won't. I'm not betting on this either, but might take a look if I get a payout on Friday.
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
Do you now realise this?
You actually like this referendum and wish we'd had it sooner? There speaks a torture porn author.
The referendum has been awful, but we need to have this debate - clearly 50% of people want to leave, what good comes from ignoring that rather than taking it on?
The referendum has been awful because of the people making the case. The 1975 one was, I am told, much more civilised.
Leadsom grinning as smugly as Osborne on a bad day.
F*cks like you are the reason we are here. If you had allowed a vote on the EU Constitution we would have stalled EU integration, and we wouldn't be faced with this hideous binary decision.
Do you now realise this?
You actually like this referendum and wish we'd had it sooner? There speaks a torture porn author.
The referendum has been awful, but we need to have this debate - clearly 50% of people want to leave, what good comes from ignoring that rather than taking it on?
The referendum has been awful because of the people making the case. The 1975 one was, I am told, much more civilised.
Living in Scotland we know what a performer Ruth Davidson is. I hope whatever the side of the referendum you're on you can see that she is formidable. A real life back story, served in the forces, articulate. One to watch
I agree. It's unlikely that I'll ever vote for her now, though.
Comments
Its not going to happen though, as Turkey is playing the same game. Turkey doesn't really want to join, just has to pretend so that the govt can keep Istanbul onside.
'Farron should be on the stage. He could carry the entire LD vote. Both of them.'
At a push.
Both are big tent Tories. Both want to expand the party beyond its stereotypical support. Both want to go about it a completely different way.
This is probably due to their backgrounds and the political scene in which they operate. But each is anathema to the other.
Wales 60/1...
Stuart excellent in an understated, solid way.
Davidson best performer by a country mile (great Boris closer notwithstanding), not everything she tried came off, but I get the hype now.
Boris was Boris - he stumbled at times, was pushy and rude, funny and inspiring, he's not great in debates but he brings an element that is very useful.
Leadsom - Dull and repetitious, but seemed calm and rational.
Khan - not entirely without merit, but not stellar.
Grady - She may be a brilliant woman. I wouldn't know, she's bloody awful as a speaker. Furtive, whiny and patronising. Other than that, a good effort (and she cannot help her voice).
It matters not of course, each playing to their own side, and undecideds probably won't see any of it at all, hell Its the first one I've watched and I do care about politics, but nothing terminal for either side.
But funny!
To be honest I'm not fussed in particular whether Turkey joins the EU or not. But if it causes the Remain side grief, that's all they deserve for both senior Lab and Con figures for the past goodness-knows-how-many years doing the two-faced "Of course we support Turkish accession!/Of course the Turks aren't going to join, it's a non-issue, anyway don't forget we have a veto and know how to use it!" depending on who their audience is. Doubly so for the failure to stand up to Erdogan as he tests what he can get away with. If Turkish accession is genuinely not in prospect, why not cancel the negotiations for it? If you won't do that, why should we trust that you (or in fact, your successor two or three times removed) is going to make any use of this veto you keep vaunting?
If Remain types are upset that "Leave's lies about Turkey" are costing them votes among the shallow-minded numbskull section of the electorate, I won't be crying for them in sympathy. They have a deeply pro-remain PM who could have neutralised the issue for good, and an EU functionocracy whose grand warblings about human rights would have looked far more impressive if they'd had the moral courage, years ago, to neutralise it for him.
Yorkshire's Liam Plunkett saves England's bacon
Scotland produces some bloody good female politicians.
Odd.
Also says that (a) the party knows a significant number of supporters are for leave and (b) we are planning to all still be mates afterwards
Mind you, I have offered Mr. Observer a bet that Boris Johnson will not be PM.
Presumably that indicates some EW value on the outsiders in the other half of the tournament?
Bookies still offering 1/2
#onebighappyfamily
The biggest losers were the MPs that didn't take part.
Where are Scotland? Oh.....
The days of Denis Heally and serious Labour people are long gone.
@krishgm: Funny seeing who gets the praise. Ruth Davidson and Sadiq Khan vying for Remain award. Boris undisputed champion of Leave. #BBCDebate