Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Undefined discussion subject.

179111213

Comments

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Is it? Got a link?

    @jimwaterson: Downing Street confirms referendum campaign will not resume until Saturday at the earliest, following the murder of Jo Cox.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,295
    kle4 said:

    There's still time for both of those to happen. I mean, we might be looking at IDS as PM too :)
    Weirdly, since Boris confirmed my low opinion of him and Gove became Man Who Screams At Migrants, IDS is the Eurosceptic who's gone up the most in my estimation.
  • SPMLSPML Posts: 17
    There are pictures circulating on twitter of the person arrested and Farage at an anti EU rally.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    viewcode said:

    I am trying desperately to find a smiley for "I knew what the word meant, I was trying to make a funny joke and - apparently - failing"... :)
    I have been laughing to myself at the idea of a hotel suitable for cheese. Or, indeed, travelling with cheese. So you've succeeded. :)

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068


    The perpetrator was mentally ill.

    There is not a mentally ill candidate in this election.

    It is therefore irrelevant.
    No doubt he is mentally ill but we will see if early reports of what he was alleged to have said are clarified
  • GravitationGravitation Posts: 287
    PlatoSaid said:

    Twitter is an even viler cesspit than ever today. I've seen the most revolting stuff to make a political point, whilst in the same sentence claiming to care about her family.
    Agreed. I don't see how the act of a mentally ill person with no apparent political history or connections can change how many people vote. The overwhelming majority of facebook and twitter posts I have seen are heartfelt and are purely focused on the tragedy and the effect on her family.

    I am bracing myself for an increasing number of posts and speeches including phrases such as 'this is what Jo Cox was campaigning for' etc etc
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318
    kle4 said:

    Yes, we're more likely to be intense and partisan, and thus less likely to admit to such wavering than a normal person.

    I don't think enough Leavers will bottle it at the last moment for Remain to win, not with Leave seeming to build up a sizable lead, all the passion and drive and momentum, but there will be some.
    Up until the last week, I always thought the result the British public wanted was Remain 50.01% and Leave 49.99% to give the EU a very nasty shock, "one last chance", and put our membership on probation.

    However, it's possible (just possible) that they want a result of Leave 50.01% and Remain 49.99% to give a very clear verdict to the UK Government (and the EU) that they want a much better deal than what Cameron got.

    That would force the EU to keep negotiating with us, and for our Government to do the same, without really being a mandate for anything more than that. Unless the EU ignored it..

    I'd expect, in that eventuality, there'd be further reforms to the UK membership to align with refounding the EU treaties for the eurozone in 2017/2018, and then the Government would stand at GE2020 on a platform to endorse its "better" deal, or not.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    I have been laughing to myself at the idea of a hotel suitable for cheese. Or, indeed, travelling with cheese. So you've succeeded. :)

    Ritz, at a push?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318
    PeterC said:

    This group is largely REMAIN anyway. What has turned the referendum is that immigration has connected as the most salient issue with WWC in the North and Midlands.
    There are solid Leavers on here I was counting on who have wibble-wobbled and worried me!

    That worries me more broadly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068
    SPML said:

    There are pictures circulating on twitter of the person arrested and Farage at an anti EU rally.

    If that is true then I think the impact on the referendum is clear, sad to say, though it has to be stressed those pictures will need verification
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Jo Cox was a formidable campaigner for remain and as time evolves I would expect from Corbyn down a request to labour supporters to vote remain as a tribute to her.
    You got any links to back that claim up otherwise some might accuse you of trying to exploit the poor lady's death?
  • SengaSenga Posts: 10
    The Guardian are reporting that Tommy Mair had Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). They also have an interview with his mixed race half brother (his mothers second marriage was to a man from Grenada) who notes that Mair had to his knowledge never expressed any racist views.

    Whether this impacts on the referendum will I suspect depend on whether he was just a mentally disturbed man (and as other posters have noted there are under care in the community many around) or someone associated with a right wing group.

    If it's the former I suspect it will have limited impact (indeed it might hit Cameron as ultimately care in the community failures would be more associated with the government) if it's the latter it will be more significant.

    Interestingly the Mail seems to be pushing the right wing link more than other papers.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cyclefree said:

    Was she? I'm not trying to be rude about her. But until a few hours ago I had never heard of her.

    Her violent death is appalling. It is a tragedy for her husband and children. It is a tragedy for those who knew and loved her. But in order to pay proper regard to the serious and sad nature of what happened today it is not necessary to turn the departed into some sort of political colossus or saint. She could have been a ho-hum lazy sort of a person who never uttered a coherent sentence and it would still be an appalling death and a tragedy for her loved ones.

    That does not appear to the case.

    Like you, I had not heard of her until today. That is my loss.

    @ITVAllegra: Girls + boys study Jo Cox. Campaigner, tireless mum, leader, mountain climber, brave, policy nerd, conversationalist, stylish. Hard as nails

    @KateProctorYP: Kate Proctor: My time with Jo Cox https://t.co/HiFoymRb7W
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited June 2016
    The Daily Mail is going big on Britain First. They've spoken to BF's leader, who's denied any connection. They seem to be gagging to make some connection, as if BF thought 'you know what, the referendum could go either way, let's kill a Labour MP, that'll really help Leave'. Admittedly I don't know anything about BF, but that seems nonsensical to me.

    This stuff is making me think the Daily Mail is planning to come out for Remain.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068

    I suspect you are correct for undecided voters. If the attacker is linked in people's minds to racism, and if people link racism to Leave, then they will not want to be associated with voting Leave.

    The ironic thing is that - if we vote Remain - the ongoing levels of immigration will only increase the pressures in society, increasing racism and increasing risks of violence. We need to manage immigration fairly to make immigration be an issue we can accept in society.

    At this time we don't know enough to be sure we understand the motives of the attacker. I have read reporting of witnesses saying he said one thing, and other reports saying that the witnesses had denied having heard that. I have read comments saying that the attacker had mental health issues, but reports saying just that he had worked with people who had mental health issues.

    We need the press, commentators and web warriors to be very careful in what they write and focus on the only thing that matters: that someone died today who shouldn't have done, and we should remember that almost all politicians go into public life to try to make the world a better place, even if we disagree with them on how to do that. We can go back to the referendum soon enough.
    Agreed
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,188
    edited June 2016

    I don't think you understand opinion polls. They are not an absolutely accurate measure of opinion.

    You had it with the first line Benedict!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318
    SPML said:

    There are pictures circulating on twitter of the person arrested and Farage at an anti EU rally.

    Link?
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Scott_P said:

    @jimwaterson: Downing Street confirms referendum campaign will not resume until Saturday at the earliest, following the murder of Jo Cox.
    That's interesting.

    Many thanks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068

    I don't think you understand opinion polls. They are not an absolutely accurate measure of opinion.

    So if they showed a tie, of 50/50 and the result was 51/49 or 52/48 that is exactly what the poll was predicting within the margin of error regardless of which way the vote actually went.

    Hence you are full of very large amounts of extremely smelly bull sh*t.
    Pollsters can blame margin of error for any inaccurate forecast if the result was close enough to what they said
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    The Daily Mail are going big on Britain First. They've spoken to BF's leader, who's denied any connection. They seem to be gagging to make some connection, as if BF thought 'you know what, the referendum could go either way, let's kill a Labour MP, that'll really help Leave'. Admittedly I don't know anything about BF, but that seems nonsensical to me.

    This stuff is making me think the Daily Mail are planning to come out for Remain.

    On Sunday.
  • Agreed. I don't see how the act of a mentally ill person with no apparent political history or connections can change how many people vote. The overwhelming majority of facebook and twitter posts I have seen are heartfelt and are purely focused on the tragedy and the effect on her family.

    I am bracing myself for an increasing number of posts and speeches including phrases such as 'this is what Jo Cox was campaigning for' etc etc
    If that is what they do it will backfire badly because it insults peoples intelligence.

    If someone had shot Her Majesty that might work but with someone most of us had never heard of it just looks silly and patronising
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318


    The ironic thing is that - if we vote Remain - the ongoing levels of immigration will only increase the pressures in society, increasing racism and increasing risks of violence. We need to manage immigration fairly to make immigration be an issue we can accept in society.

    Precisely my view.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829
    Between mourning Jo Cox, and awaiting more details of Thomas Mair, the person I feel we're losing sight of is the man who intervened in the altercation, as mentioned in all the eye-witness accounts. Presumably the same man who was taken to hospital with light injuries? His role seems extraordinary.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 24,295

    Ritz, at a push?
    Dude! You win the Internet!
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Link?
    There is nothing on Twitter.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275

    Jo Cox was a formidable campaigner for remain and as time evolves I would expect from Corbyn down a request to labour supporters to vote remain as a tribute to her.
    Utterly daft.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    kle4 said:

    I imagine you dislike the (if US TV shows are an indication) practice of talking about young victims in terms of their academic aptitude. 'The honors student' etc, that sort of thing.
    I most certainly do. Every young person is a star, a brilliant student etc, struck down with so much promise etc. I understand the impulse behind it. But it's almost as if it implies that the death of an average person with not many friends and ho hum exam results is less important. And that's not true. Most people are not stars, not even promising ones. Most of us are ordinary. But a life is a life and when it is taken away violently it is a sad loss. Ordinary is the human condition.

    In the criminal law it is the act which is being punished not the fact that we have lost a future Einstein. I dislike the sentimentality which has been imported into the system, because in an odd way it seems to diminish the importance of what's happened.

    And when the death is a suicide of a mentally ill young person the reports rarely say what in my experience is true - that such people can often - because of their illness be a complete pain to be with and can cause immense strain on their families, relationships, parents marriages. It is understandable that people should want to have a narrative that provides some comfort but the truth is usually a bit messier.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited June 2016


    The
    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic, any recommendations for nice hotels in Rome from the PB wisdom group or even @SeanT ("I have been staying in nice hotels for 20 years"): am taking daughter and fidanzato there.

    Haven't been for a while but the Excelsior was always good
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Superbly British :smiley:

    Temporary rules posted at Richmond Golf Club after German bombs hit the course in 1940. https://t.co/Wqr5Sm8bJq
  • Between mourning Jo Cox, and awaiting more details of Thomas Mair, the person I feel we're losing sight of is the man who intervened in the altercation, as mentioned in all the eye-witness accounts. Presumably the same man who was taken to hospital with light injuries? His role seems extraordinary.

    Agreed. I can only hope I'd be as brave. Probably not though.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Cyclefree said:

    In the criminal law it is the act which is being punished not the fact that we have lost a future Einstein. I dislike the sentimentality which has been imported into the system, because in an odd way it seems to diminish the importance of what's happened.

    And when the death is a suicide of a mentally ill young person the reports rarely say what in my experience is true - that such people can often - because of their illness be a complete pain to be with and can cause immense strain on their families, relationships, parents marriages. It is understandable that people should want to have a narrative that provides some comfort but the truth is usually a bit messier.
    My father committed suicide when I was 13. My immediate reaction was relief. He was, at times, monstrous to live with. It took me a long time to deal with the resultant guilt that feeling caused. So thank you for writing that. It's not often acknowledged.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594



    Agreed. I don't see how the act of a mentally ill person with no apparent political history or connections can change how many people vote. The overwhelming majority of facebook and twitter posts I have seen are heartfelt and are purely focused on the tragedy and the effect on her family.

    If it were to have an impact, I don't think it would be overt, like 'this terrible thing has made me reconsider issue x'. It would be if an event contributed to people feeling a little differently in a general sense, and that might have an impact on their assessment of other matters, even if not consciously.

    I don't think it is quantifiable, just that as many have mentioned today, our brains operate in odd ways, and tangential or unconnected happenings can ultimately lay behind and influence other things - people might say their reasons for voting or are one thing, after all, but supplementaries can sometimes cast doubt on that, or that they intend to vote one way but supplementaries cast doubt on how certain that might be true.



    Up until the last week, I always thought the result the British public wanted was Remain 50.01% and Leave 49.99% to give the EU a very nasty shock, "one last chance", and put our membership on probation.

    However, it's possible (just possible) that they want a result of Leave 50.01% and Remain 49.99% to give a very clear verdict to the UK Government (and the EU) that they want a much better deal than what Cameron got.

    That would force the EU to keep negotiating with us, and for our Government to do the same, without really being a mandate for anything more than that. Unless the EU ignored it..

    I'd expect, in that eventuality, there'd be further reforms to the UK membership to align with refounding the EU treaties for the eurozone in 2017/2018, and then the Government would stand at GE2020 on a platform to endorse its "better" deal, or not.

    People do want to sent a message. How hard is the question. I was struck by the conclusion of this piece on the BBC:

    As dark as the mood is in Brussels and beyond, it's also fervently felt in many circles that the UK referendum is a clear message that the EU must reform.

    Thing is, do you believe it will?


    I think whether it is narrow remain or leave will come down to how many deep down believe the EU can be made to work and needs to be sent a message, and how many no longer believe it can be made to work (I discount those who never thought it could, they won't swing the result) so it is not about sending a message.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36549883
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    MP_SE said:

    There is nothing on Twitter.
    I saw it on Twitter.
  • Up until the last week, I always thought the result the British public wanted was Remain 50.01% and Leave 49.99% to give the EU a very nasty shock, "one last chance", and put our membership on probation.

    However, it's possible (just possible) that they want a result of Leave 50.01% and Remain 49.99% to give a very clear verdict to the UK Government (and the EU) that they want a much better deal than what Cameron got.

    That would force the EU to keep negotiating with us, and for our Government to do the same, without really being a mandate for anything more than that. Unless the EU ignored it..

    I'd expect, in that eventuality, there'd be further reforms to the UK membership to align with refounding the EU treaties for the eurozone in 2017/2018, and then the Government would stand at GE2020 on a platform to endorse its "better" deal, or not.
    If the result is 50.01 for REMAIN.
    Brussels will take that as a cue for 'more Europe' quickly before the Brits have a chance to get uppity again.

  • NoEasyDayNoEasyDay Posts: 454
    HYUFD said:

    If that is true then I think the impact on the referendum is clear, sad to say, though it has to be stressed those pictures will need verification
    Oh come on get real.....reports from neighbours say loner, lived alone, unemployed, only passed the time of day with you.....now he is a political activist.....photoshop.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    viewcode said:

    True, and as many experts can attest, eyewitness evidence can be unreliable. There is however a difference between saying that eyewitnesses are unreliable and saying that the eyewitnesses do not exist. The Guardian names two named (ouch!) individuals here.
    There is a phenomenon known to the police and criminal bar of people confessing to crimes they clearly could not possibly have committed or people claiming to be at events they weren't at etc Not saying that this is the case here with the apparent witnesses. But in the immediate aftermath I'd be cautious about taking as gospel anything which is reported in the press or on the internet about the events. Such reports are rarely accurate. Indeed, I have been involved in quite a number of cases where even when the facts were clear the journalists managed to insert a number of errors into the reports. God knows how many there are in the breathless rush to write anything at all every few minutes on "live' updates.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318

    If the result is 50.01 for REMAIN.
    Brussels will take that as a cue for 'more Europe' quickly before the Brits have a chance to get uppity again.

    I know. And we Brits will be livid when the Swiss get a deal on free movement (nicely timed until after the referendum) and we don't.

    Which side of 50% the judgement falls is crucial, IMHO.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068
    BBC 10 pm news leading with witness saying he shouted 'Britain First'
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Cyclefree said:

    I most certainly do. Every young person is a star, a brilliant student etc, struck down with so much promise etc. I understand the impulse behind it. But it's almost as if it implies that the death of an average person with not many friends and ho hum exam results is less important. And that's not true. Most people are not stars, not even promising ones. Most of us are ordinary. But a life is a life and when it is taken away violently it is a sad loss. Ordinary is the human condition.

    In the criminal law it is the act which is being punished not the fact that we have lost a future Einstein. I dislike the sentimentality which has been imported into the system, because in an odd way it seems to diminish the importance of what's happened.

    And when the death is a suicide of a mentally ill young person the reports rarely say what in my experience is true - that such people can often - because of their illness be a complete pain to be with and can cause immense strain on their families, relationships, parents marriages. It is understandable that people should want to have a narrative that provides some comfort but the truth is usually a bit messier.
    I'd often wondered about victim impact statements in the event of a murder.

    What if no one liked the victim? What if they were a dull... of no discernible merit?

    What if there is no one to speak for them? Still a tragedy in my view.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    PeterC said:

    Utterly daft.
    Quite.

    The future destiny of this country is entirely disconnected from the random, tragic, death of one person a few days before the vote.

    Or of a million, quite frankly...
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    HYUFD said:

    The difference between an exact dead heat and close to a dead heat is that between victory and defeat and Giffords did survive
    but she was the incumbunt and Remain didn't get shot one MP did.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594
    Cyclefree said:

    I most certainly do. Every young person is a star, a brilliant student etc, struck down with so much promise etc.
    I was once in a role which involved a lot of reading child psychologist reports, of some very troubled people. It was remarkable how practically every single child was at some point described with a specific positive modifier (I honestly don't recall now exactly what it was, but it was a recurring description of children with wildly different issues and behaviours, and yet all were apparently identical in this particular way). As you say, the impulse is understandable, but it can become rote.
  • SPML said:

    There are pictures circulating on twitter of the person arrested and Farage at an anti EU rally.

    This seems pretty suspicious to me the fact these pictures have come to light in only about 6-8 hours. I hope there is no photoshopping going on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068

    If the result is 50.01 for REMAIN.
    Brussels will take that as a cue for 'more Europe' quickly before the Brits have a chance to get uppity again.

    In which case there would be a UKIP swingback
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    "The original claim for the “Britain First” shout was Aamir Tahir, a local dry cleaner. In the past few hours Mr. Tahir has told other news outlets that he “wasn’t there [at the scene]” and simply heard the allegation as second hand information."

    Local restaurant owner Hicham Ben Abdallah, widely quoted across the media as having claimed Mr. Mair shouted, “Britain First” has told Breitbart London “No, no. I did not hear that”.

    Update 17:40 — Labour MP Maria Eagle deletes tweet claiming killer shouted “Britain First”

    These are from Breitbart - but if true then this could serious rebound on the Remain campaign a la Spanish Government on the Madrid Attacks.

    And of course we have had the headlines from Europe, trying to make political capital.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,852
    PlatoSaid said:

    I saw it on Twitter.
    If true then Farage's 'violence is the next step' comments will look even more ill-judged.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,844
    I don't think this tragedy is going to influence people on how they vote (at least, I sincerely hope not - as a Remainer I want the leave campaign to be defeated, or not, based on its arguments and merits). What it will do is throw off campaign schedules for the next couple days, and given that the upcoming week will have been packed solid, approaches will be changed. I think we may see more wariness from both sides from now on, so as the other side can not accuse them of either being linked to, or trying to exploit, the campaign. To all those saying that it will stop leave momentum, be aware that it would be equally devastating for remain if a narrative were to emerge that they were trying to exploit it.
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Superbly British :smiley:

    Temporary rules posted at Richmond Golf Club after German bombs hit the course in 1940. https://t.co/Wqr5Sm8bJq

    Brilliant!
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    Rather than people referring to Twitter, why don't they copy in the exact Tweet they are referring to so everyone on here can see it? Just a thought.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    I'd often wondered about victim impact statements in the event of a murder.

    What if no one liked the victim? What if they were a dull... of no discernible merit?

    What if there is no one to speak for them? Still a tragedy in my view.
    Exactly. And they are a fraud on the family. Because the sentence the judge has to pass is not affected by the statement. It's a bit of therapy for the family. And colour me callous if you will. But the courts are not the place for family therapy.

    What people want is justice: for the guilty to be caught and punished. For the existence of the victim as a person to be acknowledged. And there should be other agencies to help families through their grief. Lawyers emoting in court adds nothing. Emoting is not real emotion. It is not even normal human sympathy and understanding. It's a bit of empty narcissistic play-acting.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    I'd often wondered about victim impact statements in the event of a murder.

    What if no one liked the victim? What if they were a dull... of no discernible merit?

    What if there is no one to speak for them? Still a tragedy in my view.
    You should've heard my dad's eulogy. What it didn't say...
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    MikeK said:

    Very sad about the Jo Cox tragedy, but really Westminster and the MSM are having a field day dropping sly hints about Hard Right Leavers, and shutting down planned programs as if the the Queen herself had died.

    It's all going over the top and giving a chance for Remain to pause and draw breath. It's beginning to smell, and things that start to small funny turn very quickly into a big stink.

    Gibberish.

    Good night.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited June 2016
    weejonnie said:

    "The original claim for the “Britain First” shout was Aamir Tahir, a local dry cleaner. In the past few hours Mr. Tahir has told other news outlets that he “wasn’t there [at the scene]” and simply heard the allegation as second hand information."

    Local restaurant owner Hicham Ben Abdallah, widely quoted across the media as having claimed Mr. Mair shouted, “Britain First” has told Breitbart London “No, no. I did not hear that”.

    Update 17:40 — Labour MP Maria Eagle deletes tweet claiming killer shouted “Britain First”

    These are from Breitbart - but if true then this could serious rebound on the Remain campaign a la Spanish Government on the Madrid Attacks.

    And of course we have had the headlines from Europe, trying to make political capital.

    BBC are reporting online and website, so I presume they have two independent sources etc etc etc, as they are normally very cautious on these things...unless your name is Cliff....

    They are reporting it as "Put Britain First", rather than "Britain First", which is arguably worse for Leave...if you believe that people change their vote based upon such incidents.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318

    If true then Farage's 'violence is the next step' comments will look even more ill-judged.
    I'm far from convinced Farage wants Leave to win this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068
    nunu said:

    but she was the incumbunt and Remain didn't get shot one MP did.
    Remain is the status quo vote
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108
    kle4 said:

    The obvious solution is to increase Gatwick but rename it to Heathrow 2, that way everyone is happy.

    Except Boris Islanders.
    If HS2 is going to be so wonderful, why don't we build it half way to Birmingham and cut travel times for all those from North of there?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318

    I don't think this tragedy is going to influence people on how they vote (at least, I sincerely hope not - as a Remainer I want the leave campaign to be defeated, or not, based on its arguments and merits). What it will do is throw off campaign schedules for the next couple days, and given that the upcoming week will have been packed solid, approaches will be changed. I think we may see more wariness from both sides from now on, so as the other side can not accuse them of either being linked to, or trying to exploit, the campaign. To all those saying that it will stop leave momentum, be aware that it would be equally devastating for remain if a narrative were to emerge that they were trying to exploit it.

    Agree with all of this.
  • ThrakThrak Posts: 494

    I think back to

    BBC are reporting online and website, so I presume they have two independent sources etc etc etc, as they are normally very cautious on these things.
    There are at least two named people both claiming he said these things. For remain it's best to keep quiet, for leave it's best to distance not deny.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,318
    HYUFD said:

    Remain is the status quo vote
    No it isn't.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829

    I'm far from convinced Farage wants Leave to win this.
    I'm far from convinced any of the Leave campaign do! All of them would be much better off with a narrow Remain win, mass resentment, Osbrown taking the rap for his economic mismanagement etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594
    PlatoSaid said:

    Superbly British :smiley:

    Temporary rules posted at Richmond Golf Club after German bombs hit the course in 1940. https://t.co/Wqr5Sm8bJq

    I hope those are real. Fair play you may take cover from bombs or gunfire during competition without penalty, but pretty harsh you suffer a penalty for replaying a ball when your stroke was affected by a simultaneous bomb explosion.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    HYUFD said:

    BBC 10 pm news leading with witness saying he shouted 'Britain First'

    Even if I thought this guy was 100% motivated by Brexit [entirely unproved at the moment] and had no mental issues [they are highly suggested at the moment], why would that change my, or anyone's, vote?

    I believe a Leave vote would reduce such tensions on all sides, which is just another good reason to make sure I vote for it.

    The EU is unaccountable, irreformable, has lost control, and has the smell of death about it.

    We don't need a bail-out, but it's certainly time for our bale-out...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068
    CBS News Poll – Approve / Disapprove / Don’t Know of ____ Response to Terrorist Attack:
    President Obama: 44% / 34% / 22% (+10%)
    Hillary Clinton: 36% / 34% / 30% (+2%)
    Donald Trump: 25% / 51% / 24% (-26%)

    Temporarily Ban Muslims From Entering U.S.?:
    Yes: 31%
    No: 62%

    Threat of ISIS to U.S.:
    Major Threat: 67%
    Minor Threat: 15%
    Not a Threat: 14%

    Gun Laws Should Be:
    More Strict: 57%
    Less Strict: 11%
    Kept as is: 29%

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/315785475/CBS-News-poll-Gauging-Americans-views-on-Orlando-mass-shooting
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    If true then Farage's 'violence is the next step' comments will look even more ill-judged.
    That would be tricky. They were horrifically ill judged, I can't see anything that would make them look more ill judged.

    I can see why Farage may have felt that was true but he should never have said that.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    No it isn't.
    Of course it is. The status quo doesn't mean stasis. It's like in a General Election the status quo is voting for the incumbent Government. It clearly doesn't mean that nothing will change. But it does mean that the day after the election is pretty much the same as the day before the election.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    Scott_P said:

    That does not appear to the case.

    Like you, I had not heard of her until today. That is my loss.

    @ITVAllegra: Girls + boys study Jo Cox. Campaigner, tireless mum, leader, mountain climber, brave, policy nerd, conversationalist, stylish. Hard as nails

    @KateProctorYP: Kate Proctor: My time with Jo Cox https://t.co/HiFoymRb7W
    I know now that's not the case. My point was that it does not matter. She will have had her good points and bad ones, too, like all of us. But the only thing that matters now is that a wife and mother is no more and that there are people who loved her who will be in pain tonight and for some time to come. There is nothing that we can do to alleviate that pain though it may be some comfort for her loved ones to know that others are sympathising with them. And there are prayers - for those who believe in them.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    RodCrosby said:

    Even if I thought this guy was 100% motivated by Brexit [entirely unproved at the moment] and had no mental issues [they are highly suggested at the moment], why would that change my, or anyone's, vote?

    I believe a Leave vote would reduce such tensions on all sides, which is just another good reason to make sure I vote for it.

    The EU is unaccountable, irreformable, has lost control, and has the smell of death about it.

    We don't need a bail-out, but it's certainly time for our bale-out...
    It's more likely to have an effect on people who are genuinely undecided, rather than actually shifting people from one camp to the other.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068
    RodCrosby said:

    Even if I thought this guy was 100% motivated by Brexit [entirely unproved at the moment] and had no mental issues [they are highly suggested at the moment], why would that change my, or anyone's, vote?

    I believe a Leave vote would reduce such tensions on all sides, which is just another good reason to make sure I vote for it.

    The EU is unaccountable, irreformable, has lost control, and has the smell of death about it.

    We don't need a bail-out, but it's certainly time for our bale-out...
    I doubt it will change any voters already voting Leave, undecideds though we shall see....
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    I don't think this tragedy is going to influence people on how they vote (at least, I sincerely hope not - as a Remainer I want the leave campaign to be defeated, or not, based on its arguments and merits). What it will do is throw off campaign schedules for the next couple days, and given that the upcoming week will have been packed solid, approaches will be changed. I think we may see more wariness from both sides from now on, so as the other side can not accuse them of either being linked to, or trying to exploit, the campaign. To all those saying that it will stop leave momentum, be aware that it would be equally devastating for remain if a narrative were to emerge that they were trying to exploit it.

    I think that both campaigns could do with some sleep if I am being honest. In the last few days they've looked punch drunk.

    I hope both sides will be very very weary of making anything of this tragedy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068

    I'm far from convinced any of the Leave campaign do! All of them would be much better off with a narrow Remain win, mass resentment, Osbrown taking the rap for his economic mismanagement etc.
    Farage gets to be England's Alex Salmond and keeps his MEP salary too
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    HYUFD said:

    I doubt it will change any voters already voting Leave, undecideds though we shall see....
    A week out, if you haven't made your mind up yet, you're probably voting Remain (if you vote at all). I think Leave need a big lead going into polling day and I just don't see it.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,080
    HYUFD said:

    CBS News Poll – Approve / Disapprove / Don’t Know of ____ Response to Terrorist Attack:
    President Obama: 44% / 34% / 22% (+10%)
    Hillary Clinton: 36% / 34% / 30% (+2%)
    Donald Trump: 25% / 51% / 24% (-26%)

    Temporarily Ban Muslims From Entering U.S.?:
    Yes: 31%
    No: 62%

    Threat of ISIS to U.S.:
    Major Threat: 67%
    Minor Threat: 15%
    Not a Threat: 14%

    Gun Laws Should Be:
    More Strict: 57%
    Less Strict: 11%
    Kept as is: 29%

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/315785475/CBS-News-poll-Gauging-Americans-views-on-Orlando-mass-shooting

    Terrible poll for Trump.

    Should see Clinton maintain or even increase her leads going forward from this.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    I think that both campaigns could do with some sleep if I am being honest. In the last few days they've looked punch drunk.

    I hope both sides will be very very weary of making anything of this tragedy.
    To be honest, if they shut up until next Thursday they'd be doing us all a favour. Drivel upon drivel, most of it
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Cyclefree said:

    Exactly. And they are a fraud on the family. Because the sentence the judge has to pass is not affected by the statement. It's a bit of therapy for the family. And colour me callous if you will. But the courts are not the place for family therapy.

    What people want is justice: for the guilty to be caught and punished. For the existence of the victim as a person to be acknowledged. And there should be other agencies to help families through their grief. Lawyers emoting in court adds nothing. Emoting is not real emotion. It is not even normal human sympathy and understanding. It's a bit of empty narcissistic play-acting.
    Don't get me started on barristers in court emoting.

    I hear of them describing how dastardly a crime was etc etc in opening speeches but can't help but thinking.. Who cares? What links the accused to the crime? They are no more or less guilty, and the only person interested in how evil the crime was should be the judge when it comes to sentencing. It is irrelevant to the question of guilt.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Thrak said:

    There are at least two named people both claiming he said these things. For remain it's best to keep quiet, for leave it's best to distance not deny.
    Probably right - but remain definitely are NOT keeping quiet.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,529
    Cyclefree said:

    Was she? I'm not trying to be rude about her. But until a few hours ago I had never heard of her.

    Her violent death is appalling. It is a tragedy for her husband and children. It is a tragedy for those who knew and loved her. But in order to pay proper regard to the serious and sad nature of what happened today it is not necessary to turn the departed into some sort of political colossus or saint. She could have been a ho-hum lazy sort of a person who never uttered a coherent sentence and it would still be an appalling death and a tragedy for her loved ones.

    A tragic death does not become more tragic because of the virtue of the victim. If the other person who was attacked had been killed (and let us pray that he survives) and not the MP it would not make a ha'porth of difference to the tragic nature of the event.

    Really until we know some more facts there is not much more to be said.
    Well said.

    Am I the only person to remember this person:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Lindh#Reaction
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    The magazine (a link supplied in this somewhere) suggests that the man:

    1) Supports Britain
    2) Supports Europe
    3) Supports White Supremacy

    But

    2) Does not support Socialist Left Wing Views
    3) Extreme Political Correctness
    4) Communism
    4) Multi-Cultural Societies

    But, don't take my word for it, take a look:

    http://i.imgur.com/03TuxBd.png
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    PlatoSaid said:

    You should've heard my dad's eulogy. What it didn't say...
    Sorry... Laughed out loud. My bad. :)

    Lots of Love...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867
    edited June 2016
    NoEasyDay said:

    Oh come on get real.....reports from neighbours say loner, lived alone, unemployed, only passed the time of day with you.....now he is a political activist.....photoshop.
    To be fair just because he is disturbed, a loner, unemployable, etc. Doesn't mean he couldn't be involved in the political scene to some degree (even if it's just delivering leaflets, etc.)

    We all just need to wait for the facts to emerge. Hopefully this "pause" in the campaign will take some of the heat out of things and everyone will just calm down a bit (I thought yesterday with the stuff on the Thames that as funny as it was, it could all get out of hand very easily and someone might sink)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829
    HYUFD said:

    Farage gets to be England's Alex Salmond and keeps his MEP salary too
    Yep. And no-one wants to be carrying the can for the recession, which we all know will come along sooner or later regardless of the outcome of the EUref. People are people. We all have our own motivations and interests.
  • NoEasyDayNoEasyDay Posts: 454

    A week out, if you haven't made your mind up yet, you're probably voting Remain (if you vote at all). I think Leave need a big lead going into polling day and I just don't see it.
    Why if your an undecided, your probably voting remain. Please explain?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    RodCrosby said:

    Even if I thought this guy was 100% motivated by Brexit [entirely unproved at the moment] and had no mental issues [they are highly suggested at the moment], why would that change my, or anyone's, vote?

    I believe a Leave vote would reduce such tensions on all sides, which is just another good reason to make sure I vote for it.

    The EU is unaccountable, irreformable, has lost control, and has the smell of death about it.

    We don't need a bail-out, but it's certainly time for our bale-out...
    Yep the right time to employ hyperbole that the EU has the smell of death about it.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Sorry... Laughed out loud. My bad. :)

    Lots of Love...
    I remember sitting through it and marveling at how well it swerved all the usual adjectives

    A master class! :smiley:
  • eekeek Posts: 29,738
    sarissa said:

    If HS2 is going to be so wonderful, why don't we build it half way to Birmingham and cut travel times for all those from North of there?
    Because there is little point in going to Birmingham and changing trains (as an example from Preston, London is 2 hours 20 minutes away)... HS2's problem is that its really designed to increase capacity but couldn't be advertised as just that...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    Don't get me started on barristers in court emoting.

    Seen too many legal dramas probably. I actually really like legal procedurals which, though of course they rely on the emotive appeal approach, have a lawyer pull off a slick point of law or interpretation to get their way.

    I recall an episode of the Good Wife before I stopped watching as it got so ridiculous where one of the lawyers had been making objections before a judge who would move on without formally ruling, which the lawyer disputed, implying it was a way for the judge not to have their judgement overturned on appeal as no judgement had been made, and demanding a formal ruling.

    I've no idea if that was even anything close to making sense in terms of the law in reality, but I liked the presentation of someone making a clever argument, rather than just talking about what a horrid crime was committed or how good a person the victim was or something.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,674
    A few newspapers are mentioning the Britain First comment, but The Daily Star, owned by Brexit backing Dirty Desmond, oh my

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/743554279512899588
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108

    Rather than people referring to Twitter, why don't they copy in the exact Tweet they are referring to so everyone on here can see it? Just a thought.

    Modern proverb #237: Chinese whispers always speak loudest.
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,917
    edited June 2016
    NoEasyDay said:

    Why if your an undecided, your probably voting remain. Please explain?
    Voting Remain - rightly or wrongly - is seen as voting for a status quo. If you're unsure of the change, you don't change. If in doubt, stick to what you (think you) know. Three out of four referendums are won by the status quo and the British, really, are a pretty conservative lot (small 'c'). Beyond the noise, that's the truth of it I think. There just aren't enough people antagonised by the EU enough yet to want to leave it. Maybe in 2017, or 2018 etc, but not at the moment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068
    murali_s said:

    Terrible poll for Trump.

    Should see Clinton maintain or even increase her leads going forward from this.
    Certainly the latest polls suggest she now has a clear lead having wrapped up the nomination
  • ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    edited June 2016

    I think that both campaigns could do with some sleep if I am being honest. In the last few days they've looked punch drunk.

    I hope both sides will be very very weary of making anything of this tragedy.
    Don't need to, the media are all over it. Now making connections to pretty unsavoury organisation campaigning to leave EU, both papers and broadcast media. Even if not true the genie is out of the bottle. Only question is will the Brexit supporting press not run anything?

    EDIT: just seen Daily Star, blimey, I didnt think they'd be quite so clear on it.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,867

    A few newspapers are mentioning the Britain First comment, but The Daily Star, owned by Brexit backing Dirty Desmond, oh my

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/743554279512899588

    Shocking! :(
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    A few newspapers are mentioning the Britain First comment, but The Daily Star, owned by Brexit backing Dirty Desmond, oh my

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/743554279512899588

    Disgusting.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    RodCrosby said:

    Even if I thought this guy was 100% motivated by Brexit [entirely unproved at the moment] and had no mental issues [they are highly suggested at the moment], why would that change my, or anyone's, vote?

    I believe a Leave vote would reduce such tensions on all sides, which is just another good reason to make sure I vote for it.

    The EU is unaccountable, irreformable, has lost control, and has the smell of death about it.

    We don't need a bail-out, but it's certainly time for our bale-out...
    We might get a Bale out on Monday if the Russians wake up and Wales don't improve...
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Cyclefree said:

    To be honest, if they shut up until next Thursday they'd be doing us all a favour. Drivel upon drivel, most of it
    With regret I agree with you.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400

    A few newspapers are mentioning the Britain First comment, but The Daily Star, owned by Brexit backing Dirty Desmond, oh my

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/743554279512899588

    That's disgusting
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    A few newspapers are mentioning the Britain First comment, but The Daily Star, owned by Brexit backing Dirty Desmond, oh my

    htps://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/743554279512899588

    Well, I defended the right of people to politicize recent tragedies on the basis that, amid the worthless garbage, worthwhile comment is possible and may in some cases be desirable even if hard to hear.

    I think that falls into the worthless garbage pile. The owner is pro-Brexit you say? I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but I'd doubt that headline hurts the cause, that's for sure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,068

    A week out, if you haven't made your mind up yet, you're probably voting Remain (if you vote at all). I think Leave need a big lead going into polling day and I just don't see it.
    Maybe though we will know more in a few days
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    rcs1000 said:

    That's disgusting
    Disgraceful journalism
This discussion has been closed.