Looking at his quote as someone included below he was saying facts should be established first, so it was not the content or tone that meant it should be pulled, even if he disagreed with it, but its facts.
[EDIT: deleted. Strayed into angels-on-head-of-pin territory]
On a serious note, and having read @NickPalmer's post upthread - is it now time to consider armed protection for MPs on such occasions? These incidents are still rare, thank God, but they appear to be becoming more frequent, especially in light of comments that another MP had another near miss recently.
It needn't be obtrusive but it seems it might be necessary if MPs are both to meet people openly and not be in danger of attack.
This is a genuine question. What do people think? I hate the idea - but I hate what's happened more.
Even so, it is still very very rare, and is it a significant step to make such a change to how these things are done.
Oxygen is a carcinogen. The very act of breathing can cause cancer. The longer you live the higher the chance you get cancer. As cells divide the can become damage, every single cell in your body is a result of an unbroken chain of cell division going back billions of years.
The very nature of our life brings us death.
Alistair's cheering me up...
My question to you all is do you think this referendum has made you more politically engaged? Or is it simply another betting opportunity? Could you consider voting for a different party now?
Valar dohaeris
I have no idea who I could possibly vote for anymore. The Tories are about to be a confused, contradictory mess, likely ditching the things I like for things I do not, Corbynite Labour are simply unpalatable, the LDs nationally appear to be being doing nothing, and as a economically rightish socially leftish leaning centrist I doubt they want my vote anyway, UKIP generally seem to be correct on only one issue, the EU, and there is no one else.
I decided at the last minute in 2015 to vote LD partly out of habit, partly out of sympathy and partly on the basis they'd worked harder for my vote (by actually working for it, unlike the other parties, it being a safe Tory seat). It being such a safe seat makes my vote pointless anyway, but I feel it a duty to vote, so god only knows which way I'll end up going in the General Election we might well get this year.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I find myself in a similar position. I'm fiscally dry, socially dripping wet. There appears to be no natural home for my vote, which, on reflection seems fantastical - it's the only sensible political position, surely .
As long as Cameron leads the Tory Party that is obviously your home, otherwise with the Orange Book LDs
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
On a serious note, and having read @NickPalmer's post upthread - is it now time to consider armed protection for MPs on such occasions? These incidents are still rare, thank God, but they appear to be becoming more frequent, especially in light of comments that another MP had another near miss recently.
It needn't be obtrusive but it seems it might be necessary if MPs are both to meet people openly and not be in danger of attack.
This is a genuine question. What do people think? I hate the idea - but I hate what's happened more.
Even so, it is still very very rare, and is it a significant step to make such a change to how these things are done.
Oxygen is a carcinogen. The very act of breathing can cause cancer. The longer you live the higher the chance you get cancer. As cells divide the can become damage, every single cell in your body is a result of an unbroken chain of cell division going back billions of years.
The very nature of our life brings us death.
Alistair's cheering me up...
My question to you all is do you think this referendum has made you more politically engaged? Or is it simply another betting opportunity? Could you consider voting for a different party now?
Valar dohaeris
I have no idea who I could possibly vote for anymore. The Tories are about to be a confused, contradictory mess, likely ditching the things I like for things I do not, Corbynite Labour are simply unpalatable, the LDs nationally appear to be being doing nothing, and as a economically rightish socially leftish leaning centrist I doubt they want my vote anyway, UKIP generally seem to be correct on only one issue, the EU, and there is no one else.
I decided at the last minute in 2015 to vote LD partly out of habit, partly out of sympathy and partly on the basis they'd worked harder for my vote (by actually working for it, unlike the other parties, it being a safe Tory seat). It being such a safe seat makes my vote pointless anyway, but I feel it a duty to vote, so god only knows which way I'll end up going in the General Election we might well get this year.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I find myself in a similar position. I'm fiscally dry, socially dripping wet. There appears to be no natural home for my vote, which, on reflection seems fantastical - it's the only sensible political position, surely .
Small government libertarian, hence socially government to stay the f**k out of people's private lives. No home either. Particularly not in the US
On this Massie piece, I haven't yet read it, although my instinct is people should be allowed to politicise things soon after tragedies, as even though you get a lot of worthless and offensive rubbish that way, you can have things politicised by people trying to prevent discussion by claiming not to want to politicise events, and so the protection of some worthy comments will by necessity also involve the protection of opprobrious material.
Which is not to say someone should not face criticism or consequences as as result, and a publication has the right to decide it does not want to touch it with a bargepole.
It's a horrible piece, written far too soon.
It may be so. My point was I'm not opposed in principle to people attempting to talk politically about issues soon after the event, although personally I think if someone does so they should consider very carefully what it will add to the debate they wish to spark and a sensitive approach would be more effective, and criticising purely on the basis of horribleness of the pieces in question, if that is merited, rather than develop a principle that you have to wait...how long, before you are supposed to, a period which people will in any case disagree on.
I certainly wouldn't write a piece of the tone that has been described at such a time, not least because the facts are still unclear, and if the Spectator has or decides to pull it, I have no objection to that, but if someone wants to make the attempt to address something politically, which may - though I think not here - be appropriate in some contexts (for instance where the not too soon argument may be used to deflect), they should not feel it impolitic to do so. If they write a piece of trash like a great big cock, they will face the derision they deserve, but sometimes worthwhile comment may be found that might otherwise be lost should the principle be not too soon as a hard rule.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
If the ref campaign is frozen now until Monday, when Leave have a lead that means Remain only have three days in effect to get back in the lead. I don't think we can necessarily say this stops Brexit.
If the ref campaign is frozen now until Monday, when Leave have a lead that means Remain only have three days in effect to get back in the lead. I don't think we can necessarily say this stops Brexit.
I think Leave lost their lead this evening, campaigning will make zero difference either way
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
If the ref campaign is frozen now until Monday, when Leave have a lead that means Remain only have three days in effect to get back in the lead. I don't think we can necessarily say this stops Brexit.
I think Leave lost their lead this evening, campaigning will make zero difference either way
While I'm incredibly sorry for Jo Cox and her family, this will not change my vote. Others may do as they please, of course.
Cancer is a disease of age. The massive rise in cancers is due entirely to the massive rise in life expectancy.
Oxygen is a carcinogen. The very act of breathing can cause cancer. The longer you live the higher the chance you get cancer. As cells divide the can become damage, every single cell in your body is a result of an unbroken chain of cell division going back billions of years.
The very nature of our life brings us death.
I'd like to see some evidence for your cancer/oxygen claim.
As altitude of living location increase lung cancer rates decrease.
Amazingly enough oxygen is a key component of oxidantion damage of cells. The body is built to prevent it but can only do so much against the constant bombardment it takes.
This study (fascinating, thanks for posting) doesn't prove or seek to prove, the process of 'oxygen-driven tumorigenesis' that you describe. It is a (very rigorous) survey that suggests that high altitude living coincides with less lung cancer.
"If future research confirms oxygen-driven tumorigenesis in the human lung, the present study will join the substantial list of ecological analyses that spurred new insights into cancer etiology"
It seems very much a hypothesis rather than an accepted fact. Other theories could include metabolic changes in individuals living at high altitude, less dampness from high altitude, better air quality at high altitude, and the list goes on.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Only by deranged people, like you...
Deranged people like the undecideds who will decide this referendum you mean. It may not be fair but that is what I think will happen
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
As long as Cameron leads the Tory Party that is obviously your home, otherwise with the Orange Book LDs
Presumably, though, given the disaster they led the LDs too, the orange bookers, even if they are such a quantifiable force (I do own a copy of the orange book actually, never read it though), are not going to be setting the LD agenda?
If nothing else the British public demonstrated in how quickly the LDs declined (even before 'betrayals' started up, that despite what they may profess they do not like centrists or compromisers. The LDs therefore presumably have to go after Cameroonian Tories if the Tories go or are perceived to go more to the right (could win back blue liberals in the west country) or they need to go after those agog at Corbynite Labour machinations. Not both.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
No but I think it's likely to crystallise the swingback that was inevitable to some extent.
If the ref campaign is frozen now until Monday, when Leave have a lead that means Remain only have three days in effect to get back in the lead. I don't think we can necessarily say this stops Brexit.
I think Leave lost their lead this evening, campaigning will make zero difference either way
Why?
I know it sounds macabre but only 9 hours ago almost everyone was saying on here that Brexit was or should be odds-on.
Off topic, any recommendations for nice hotels in Rome from the PB wisdom group or even @SeanT ("I have been staying in nice hotels for 20 years"): am taking daughter and fidanzato there.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
Everytime we think "this is the worse it has ever been" the world gets a little bit more worse.
the world is probably the best it's ever been
I'd agree with that sentiment. One of the great mysteries of our age is that at a time when we are collectively healthier and wealthier than at any time in history, our overall outlook is so bleak, fearful and pessimistic.
As I wrote the other day, it's rough if you're charismatic megafauna or a rain forest or a coral reef. But as a human? These are the best of times.
We're not healthier. This is a myth. Chronic disease has massively grown in the past century.
Isnt that due to longer life expectancy ?
When you're popping your clogs aged 35 you dont get older peoples ailments
Of course it's not. Did you grow up with all the kids in your class having allergies, intolerances, asthma? Such comparatively young people getting cancer?
If I'll admit I was wrong and this is, in fact, the worst ever time to be alive, that things are going to get even worse in the future, can we stop this line of discussion?
If you regret spending any of your life watching it, come back to me and put me through watching the equivalent amount of some ghastly TED talk or something. But you won't.
It's two hours long! I shall put it on my watchlist for my next bout of insomnia .
It will definitely help with the insomnia.
I can't help it if people don't have the attention span to watch a cogently and eloquently argued lecture on a vitally important topic.
I did hold out an olive branch but I now return to my original view that you are a complete crank.
Sorry, but I don't understand what discussion you think we're having. I never noticed you 'being mean', so I wasn't particularly holding out for an 'olive branch'.
In light of today's events, BMG are delaying their polls by 24 hours. So they will now be released at 1am Saturday.
All polling is irrelevant now until the weekend, while it does seem a bit inappropriate to look at the political consequences of today's news nonetheless while at lunchtime it was literally neck and neck, if not Leave with the narrow advantage, it is now difficult to see past a narrow Remain win but we shall see. The shooter shouting 'Britain First', allegedly, will be all over the news today and tomorrow
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
No but I think it's likely to crystallise the swingback that was inevitable to some extent.
I have every respect for people like kle4 and SeanT who are clearly wrestling with their consciences as to which way to vote on the 23rd.
If this referendum breaks Remain purely based on this tragedy, it'll be proof that the British people have been overwhelmed by sentimentality and we'll deserve all we get. I don't mind losing. I just don't want to lose like that.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
Fucking pave over west London and turn it into an airport. I don't care if my flat gets demolished.
If it means an end to being assaulted with pro-Heathrow propaganda every time you pass through the airport I'm all for it, but still prefer the ambition of Boris Island.
Boris island is almost completely bonkers... Apart from the fact that the alternative is half arsed attempts at minor expansions of airports.
From that point of view a 4 runway hub airport would be a great idea.
Why is Boris Island bonkers or indeed the alternative proposal for an Isle of Grain airport by Norman Foster? I'd suggest both have considerably more merit than HS2
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
It will shift a majority of the undecideds, 13% of voters with Survation today
On this Massie piece, I haven't yet read it, although my instinct is people should be allowed to politicise things soon after tragedies, as even though you get a lot of worthless and offensive rubbish that way, you can have things politicised by people trying to prevent discussion by claiming not to want to politicise events, and so the protection of some worthy comments will by necessity also involve the protection of opprobrious material.
Which is not to say someone should not face criticism or consequences as as result, and a publication has the right to decide it does not want to touch it with a bargepole.
It's a horrible piece, written far too soon.
It may be so. My point was I'm not opposed in principle to people attempting to talk politically about issues soon after the event, although personally I think if someone does so they should consider very carefully what it will add to the debate they wish to spark and a sensitive approach would be more effective, and criticising purely on the basis of horribleness of the pieces in question, if that is merited, rather than develop a principle that you have to wait...how long, before you are supposed to, a period which people will in any case disagree on.
I certainly wouldn't write a piece of the tone that has been described at such a time, not least because the facts are still unclear, and if the Spectator has or decides to pull it, I have no objection to that, but if someone wants to make the attempt to address something politically, which may - though I think not here - be appropriate in some contexts (for instance where the not too soon argument may be used to deflect), they should not feel it impolitic to do so. If they write a piece of trash like a great big cock, they will face the derision they deserve, but sometimes worthwhile comment may be found that might otherwise be lost should the principle be not too soon as a hard rule.
Looking back on my paras here, if you discount the very first four word sentence, it's only three sentences, one of 95 words, one of 89 words and one a much more brief and common 42. That's too long for good sentence structure, right?
Still, I only used one hypened comment and one parenthetical, so could be worse.
In light of today's events, BMG are delaying their polls by 24 hours. So they will now be released at 1am Saturday.
All polling is irrelevant now until the weekend, while it does seem a bit inappropriate to look at the political consequences of today's news nonetheless while at lunchtime it was literally neck and neck, if not Leave with the narrow advantage, it is now difficult to see past a narrow Remain win but we shall see. The shooter shouting 'Britain First', allegedly, will be all over the news today and tomorrow
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
No but I think it's likely to crystallise the swingback that was inevitable to some extent.
I have every respect for people like kle4 and SeanT who are clearly wrestling with their consciences as to which way to vote on the 23rd.
If this referendum breaks Remain purely based on this tragedy, it'll be proof that the British people have been overwhelmed by sentimentality and we'll deserve all we get. I don't mind losing. I just don't want to lose like that.
But you just know that some are going to find it irresistible to use the contemptible line
If the ref campaign is frozen now until Monday, when Leave have a lead that means Remain only have three days in effect to get back in the lead. I don't think we can necessarily say this stops Brexit.
I think Leave lost their lead this evening, campaigning will make zero difference either way
While I'm incredibly sorry for Jo Cox and her family, this will not change my vote. Others may do as they please, of course.
Why should it change your vote? It is only the timing which is making people link it to the referendum. She wasn't even campaigning but doing her day job in her surgery. Until we know the reasons why the killer did what he did this is an appalling tragedy for her family which reminds us that MPs like other public servants such as policemen are at risk. It is not - and should not be treated as such in the absence of any supporting evidence - a political event.
Let's find out the facts first. What gets said / reported in the immediate aftermath is rarely the full story.
But to everything there is a season. And today - for her family, friends and colleagues - is a day for mourning.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
No but I think it's likely to crystallise the swingback that was inevitable to some extent.
I have every respect for people like kle4 and SeanT who are clearly wrestling with their consciences as to which way to vote on the 23rd.
If this referendum breaks Remain purely based on this tragedy, it'll be proof that the British people have been overwhelmed by sentimentality and we'll deserve all we get. I don't mind losing. I just don't want to lose like that.
In light of today's events, BMG are delaying their polls by 24 hours. So they will now be released at 1am Saturday.
All polling is irrelevant now until the weekend, while it does seem a bit inappropriate to look at the political consequences of today's news nonetheless while at lunchtime it was literally neck and neck, if not Leave with the narrow advantage, it is now difficult to see past a narrow Remain win but we shall see. The shooter shouting 'Britain First', allegedly, will be all over the news today and tomorrow
Off topic, any recommendations for nice hotels in Rome from the PB wisdom group or even @SeanT ("I have been staying in nice hotels for 20 years"): am taking daughter and fidanzato there.
I rather liked staying at http://www.hoteldonnacamillasavelli.com/ the year before last. It's a converted convent (I think there is still a nun or two in part of it) and has its own chapel with daily communion (far too early in the morning). It does mean that you see at least 1 or 2 priests having their (I guess free) breakfast there every morning...
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
The incident will shift few if any votes.
The only thing liable to shift votes is a bucketful of Patronising Sanctimoniousness by people trying to imply that this shows that anyone to the right of Ken Clarke is a loathsome racofascist. Sadly they never learn and there are signs that this is exactly what will happen.
Very sad about the Jo Cox tragedy, but really Westminster and the MSM are having a field day dropping sly hints about Hard Right Leavers, and shutting down planned programs as if the the Queen herself had died.
It's all going over the top and giving a chance for Remain to pause and draw breath. It's beginning to smell, and things that start to small funny turn very quickly into a big stink.
In light of today's events, BMG are delaying their polls by 24 hours. So they will now be released at 1am Saturday.
All polling is irrelevant now until the weekend, while it does seem a bit inappropriate to look at the political consequences of today's news nonetheless while at lunchtime it was literally neck and neck, if not Leave with the narrow advantage, it is now difficult to see past a narrow Remain win but we shall see. The shooter shouting 'Britain First', allegedly, will be all over the news today and tomorrow
Yes, it is inappropriate. As is your obvious relish at the consequences of this 'bit of luck'. Shall we do a PB prediction competition on the amount of points this is likely to swing the results? Or perhaps you could spoil us all, have some class, and just put it back in your pants for the remainder of the evening.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
No but I think it's likely to crystallise the swingback that was inevitable to some extent.
Jo Cox was a formidable campaigner for remain and as time evolves I would expect from Corbyn down a request to labour supporters to vote remain as a tribute to her.
If the ref campaign is frozen now until Monday, when Leave have a lead that means Remain only have three days in effect to get back in the lead. I don't think we can necessarily say this stops Brexit.
I think Leave lost their lead this evening, campaigning will make zero difference either way
Why?
I know it sounds macabre but only 9 hours ago almost everyone was saying on here that Brexit was or should be odds-on.
We know nothing of the next week.
This is one of those unexpected events that can shift a campaign, even if it just switches a few votes in a race this close that can be decisive
Off topic, any recommendations for nice hotels in Rome from the PB wisdom group or even @SeanT ("I have been staying in nice hotels for 20 years"): am taking daughter and fidanzato there.
I rather liked staying at http://www.hoteldonnacamillasavelli.com/ the year before last. It's a converted convent (I think there is still a nun or two in part of it) and has its own chapel with daily communion (far too early in the morning). It does mean that you see at least 1 or 2 priests having their (I guess free) breakfast there every morning...
The assassination of Anna Lind made no difference to the outcome of the Swedish referendum in 2003; the attempt to blame the Madrid bombing in 2004 on ETA backfired on the Spanish government. Eastbourne was won by the Lib Dems after Ian Gow was murdered. I would be surprised if swing voters hold the Leave campaign responsible for this murder.
Fucking pave over west London and turn it into an airport. I don't care if my flat gets demolished.
If it means an end to being assaulted with pro-Heathrow propaganda every time you pass through the airport I'm all for it, but still prefer the ambition of Boris Island.
Boris island is almost completely bonkers... Apart from the fact that the alternative is half arsed attempts at minor expansions of airports.
From that point of view a 4 runway hub airport would be a great idea.
Why is Boris Island bonkers or indeed the alternative proposal for an Isle of Grain airport by Norman Foster? I'd suggest both have considerably more merit than HS2
I didn't say it was bonkers... Just almost completely.
The reason I said that is because the current claim is we need just 1 runway so building a 4 or 6 runway airport seems extreme.
Of course the reality is that we could probably do with 2 right now and before the paint is dry on the runway we'll need another so it would make sense to just go the whole hog and build a really big one.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Given your frequency of posts repeating your sentiments, you are starting to come across as trolling. That may not be your intention but you are starting to give that impression
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
Most of those who voted by post will be elderly Leave voters anyway
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
With respect I don't think its the time this evening to speculate on things like that.
Its one of the great things about the UK the access that we have to our political representatives. To the best of my knowledge, many political representatives in countries around the world don't hold surgeries etc that our MP's do. Today that privilege was tragically abused. RIP Jo Cox.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
Most of those who voted by post will be elderly Leave voters anyway
Look I really dont want to get into this sort of argument now. Stop it. Im not biting
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Given your frequency of posts repeating your sentiments, you are starting to come across as trolling. That may not be your intention but you are starting to give that impression
Well given the clear majority of PB posters are staunch leavers inevitably anything which disagrees could be called trolling but I am just stating a view not trying to troll, of course it may be wrong but this is my first impression
If the ref campaign is frozen now until Monday, when Leave have a lead that means Remain only have three days in effect to get back in the lead. I don't think we can necessarily say this stops Brexit.
I think Leave lost their lead this evening, campaigning will make zero difference either way
Why?
I know it sounds macabre but only 9 hours ago almost everyone was saying on here that Brexit was or should be odds-on.
We know nothing of the next week.
This is one of those unexpected events that can shift a campaign, even if it just switches a few votes in a race this close that can be decisive
If you are correct that it's 50/50 and it might shift a few hundred thousand votes, yes.
But your argument seems to be that it will change the whole dynamic of the last 6 days of the campaign.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly.
'Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.'
This is the guy that was telling us a few months ago that Andy Burnham was nailed on as Labour leader & when that didn't happen there would be a Hilary Benn coup against Corbyn !
I would highly recommend Kevin Kelly's new book The Inevitable. As most of what's going to happen in the next 30 years is as the title say already inevitable...
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Given your frequency of posts repeating your sentiments, you are starting to come across as trolling. That may not be your intention but you are starting to give that impression
Well given the clear majority of PB posters are staunch leavers inevitably anything which disagrees could be called trolling but I am just stating a view not trying to troll, of course it may be wrong but this is my first impression
Fine. Youve stated it. Why keep banging on about it?
BBC Panorama has learnt that Lord Coe won the presidency of the International Association of Athletics Federations with the help of the man at the centre of the sport's doping scandal.
The programme also suggests Coe may have misled the UK parliament.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Jeeez ...you really are a complete total and utter Arse.
I would highly recommend Kevin Kelly's new book The Inevitable. As most of what's going to happen in the next 30 years is as the title say already inevitable...
Thank you. Have you read Accelerando? It's more of a novelistic take on the Singularity.
The assassination of Anna Lind made no difference to the outcome of the Swedish referendum in 2003; the attempt to blame the Madrid bombing in 2004 on ETA backfired on the Spanish government. Eastbourne was won by the Lib Dems after Ian Gow was murdered. I would be surprised if swing voters hold the Leave campaign responsible for this murder.
The 2004 bombings were clearly carried out by Muslim extremists and the electorate blamed the Iraq War, this most likely looks like a deranged British nationalist, the murder of Anna Lindh was tragic but not considered a political act at all. Sinn Fein of course was not running in Eastbourne and would have been trounced if they were
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
It will shift a majority of the undecideds, 13% of voters with Survation today
I have posted and mostly followed this site for many years but I never cease to wonder why posters here (and my following comment is not meant in any way to minimise the tragic death of this lady) think every headline, incident, gaff, somehow is a game changer. The reality is that it is the mood music that counts, the momentum that decides the outcome. And that normally takes weeks or months to build.
And maybe something as sad as this should, but it doesn't.
Fucking pave over west London and turn it into an airport. I don't care if my flat gets demolished.
If it means an end to being assaulted with pro-Heathrow propaganda every time you pass through the airport I'm all for it, but still prefer the ambition of Boris Island.
Boris island is almost completely bonkers... Apart from the fact that the alternative is half arsed attempts at minor expansions of airports.
From that point of view a 4 runway hub airport would be a great idea.
Why is Boris Island bonkers or indeed the alternative proposal for an Isle of Grain airport by Norman Foster? I'd suggest both have considerably more merit than HS2
I didn't say it was bonkers... Just almost completely.
The reason I said that is because the current claim is we need just 1 runway so building a 4 or 6 runway airport seems extreme.
Of course the reality is that we could probably do with 2 right now and before the paint is dry on the runway we'll need another so it would make sense to just go the whole hog and build a really big one.
Given that there is actually room for it the obvious place really is Gatwick.
This is the guy that was telling us a few months ago that Andy Burnham was nailed on as Labour leader & when that didn't happen there would be a Hilary Benn coup against Corbyn !
There's still time for both of those to happen. I mean, we might be looking at IDS as PM too
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
Why are you so confident of that?
The evidence on here is that some firm Leavers bottle it when they think Leave might win.
And those are the ones that admit to feeling like that.
Fucking pave over west London and turn it into an airport. I don't care if my flat gets demolished.
If it means an end to being assaulted with pro-Heathrow propaganda every time you pass through the airport I'm all for it, but still prefer the ambition of Boris Island.
Boris island is almost completely bonkers... Apart from the fact that the alternative is half arsed attempts at minor expansions of airports.
From that point of view a 4 runway hub airport would be a great idea.
Why is Boris Island bonkers or indeed the alternative proposal for an Isle of Grain airport by Norman Foster? I'd suggest both have considerably more merit than HS2
I didn't say it was bonkers... Just almost completely.
The reason I said that is because the current claim is we need just 1 runway so building a 4 or 6 runway airport seems extreme.
Of course the reality is that we could probably do with 2 right now and before the paint is dry on the runway we'll need another so it would make sense to just go the whole hog and build a really big one.
Given that there is actually room for it the obvious place really is Gatwick.
The obvious solution is to increase Gatwick but rename it to Heathrow 2, that way everyone is happy.
Very sad about the Jo Cox tragedy, but really Westminster and the MSM are having a field day dropping sly hints about Hard Right Leavers, and shutting down planned programs as if the the Queen herself had died.
It's all going over the top and giving a chance for Remain to pause and draw breath. It's beginning to smell, and things that start to small funny turn very quickly into a big stink.
Actually it has stopped the governor of the BoE giving a speech... so who knows what effect it will have.
I rather suspect the campaign will be at full swing tomorrow.
In light of today's events, BMG are delaying their polls by 24 hours. So they will now be released at 1am Saturday.
All polling is irrelevant now until the weekend, while it does seem a bit inappropriate to look at the political consequences of today's news nonetheless while at lunchtime it was literally neck and neck, if not Leave with the narrow advantage, it is now difficult to see past a narrow Remain win but we shall see. The shooter shouting 'Britain First', allegedly, will be all over the news today and tomorrow
Very sad about the Jo Cox tragedy, but really Westminster and the MSM are having a field day dropping sly hints about Hard Right Leavers, and shutting down planned programs as if the the Queen herself had died.
It's all going over the top and giving a chance for Remain to pause and draw breath. It's beginning to smell, and things that start to small funny turn very quickly into a big stink.
Actually it has stopped the governor of the BoE giving a speech... so who knows what effect it will have.
I rather suspect the campaign will be at full swing tomorrow.
Very sad about the Jo Cox tragedy, but really Westminster and the MSM are having a field day dropping sly hints about Hard Right Leavers, and shutting down planned programs as if the the Queen herself had died.
It's all going over the top and giving a chance for Remain to pause and draw breath. It's beginning to smell, and things that start to small funny turn very quickly into a big stink.
Actually it has stopped the governor of the BoE giving a speech... so who knows what effect it will have.
I rather suspect the campaign will be at full swing tomorrow.
I would think so. Events can have unexpected impacts even if they are, in actuality, unconnected to later events, they can cause people to reflect differently on entirely unconnected matters, so who can say what might happen.
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
It will shift a majority of the undecideds, 13% of voters with Survation today
I have posted and mostly followed this site for many years but I never cease to wonder why posters here (and my following comment is not meant in any way to minimise the tragic death of this lady) think every headline, incident, gaff, somehow is a game changer. The reality is that it is the mood music that counts, the momentum that decides the outcome. And that normally takes weeks or months to build.
And maybe something as sad as this should, but it doesn't.
This is not a minor issue, this will lead the news for the next two days
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Given your frequency of posts repeating your sentiments, you are starting to come across as trolling. That may not be your intention but you are starting to give that impression
Well given the clear majority of PB posters are staunch leavers inevitably anything which disagrees could be called trolling but I am just stating a view not trying to troll, of course it may be wrong but this is my first impression
Fine. Youve stated it. Why keep banging on about it?
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
Why are you so confident of that?
The evidence on here is that some firm Leavers bottle it when they think Leave might win.
And those are the ones that admit to feeling like that.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Even if we did know what was heard - and that is a big leap - we don't know what a mentally disturbed person was actually thinking. Or if they even had a rational thought in their head.
As of tonight, we know a promising young MP has been struck down - and that is about all.
I do not know how much 'swingback' there will be. But I doubt that the 'Britain First' outburst will have much at all to do with it. It is mentioned quite rightly in the media reports but I see no sign of an attempt to big it up, (Massie excepted). This debate is crazy.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly.
'Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.'
This is the guy that was telling us a few months ago that Andy Burnham was nailed on as Labour leader & when that didn't happen there would be a Hilary Benn coup against Corbyn !
I said Andy Burnham would be the best choice to be Labour leader not he was nailed on, there could still be a Hilary Benn coup against Corbyn (though I think the more likely replacement will be McDonnell)
The assassination of Anna Lind made no difference to the outcome of the Swedish referendum in 2003; the attempt to blame the Madrid bombing in 2004 on ETA backfired on the Spanish government. Eastbourne was won by the Lib Dems after Ian Gow was murdered. I would be surprised if swing voters hold the Leave campaign responsible for this murder.
The 2004 bombings were clearly carried out by Muslim extremists and the electorate blamed the Iraq War, this most likely looks like a deranged British nationalist, the murder of Anna Lindh was tragic but not considered a political act at all. Sinn Fein of course was not running in Eastbourne and would have been trounced if they were
Reported that the person had OCD - but otherwise led a calm relatively sheltered life - doesn't seem to have been active politically. Noted that the television reports are not, currently mentioning the alleged shouting.
For all we know, he might be upset over something completely unrelated to the referendum.
The assassination of Anna Lind made no difference to the outcome of the Swedish referendum in 2003; the attempt to blame the Madrid bombing in 2004 on ETA backfired on the Spanish government. Eastbourne was won by the Lib Dems after Ian Gow was murdered. I would be surprised if swing voters hold the Leave campaign responsible for this murder.
The 2004 bombings were clearly carried out by Muslim extremists and the electorate blamed the Iraq War, this most likely looks like a deranged British nationalist, the murder of Anna Lindh was tragic but not considered a political act at all. Sinn Fein of course was not running in Eastbourne and would have been trounced if they were
The perpetrator was mentally ill.
There is not a mentally ill candidate in this election.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Even if we did know what was heard - and that is a big leap - we don't know what a mentally disturbed person was actually thinking. Or if they even had a rational thought in their head.
As of tonight, we know a promising young MP has been struck down - and that is about all.
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
It will shift a majority of the undecideds, 13% of voters with Survation today
I have posted and mostly followed this site for many years but I never cease to wonder why posters here (and my following comment is not meant in any way to minimise the tragic death of this lady) think every headline, incident, gaff, somehow is a game changer. The reality is that it is the mood music that counts, the momentum that decides the outcome. And that normally takes weeks or months to build. .
Well said. I'm sure I've been guilty of that at some point, but I feel like every header should be bookended with a statement like 'We know normal people won't pick on minutiae and we know single events won't change everything, so pointing that out doesn't mean it won't have some impact, perhaps important, through cumulative impact, through effect on the narrative'. Only a bit more concise.
That said, overreacting to things like that keeps things interesting. Remember daily yougovs and moe changes?
The assassination of Anna Lind made no difference to the outcome of the Swedish referendum in 2003; the attempt to blame the Madrid bombing in 2004 on ETA backfired on the Spanish government. Eastbourne was won by the Lib Dems after Ian Gow was murdered. I would be surprised if swing voters hold the Leave campaign responsible for this murder.
The 2004 bombings were clearly carried out by Muslim extremists and the electorate blamed the Iraq War, this most likely looks like a deranged British nationalist, the murder of Anna Lindh was tragic but not considered a political act at all. Sinn Fein of course was not running in Eastbourne and would have been trounced if they were
It was subsequently established that Anna Lindh's murder was not political. It took place four days before the vote and there was plenty of speculation that she'd been murdered by a far right activist.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
Why are you so confident of that?
The evidence on here is that some firm Leavers bottle it when they think Leave might win.
And those are the ones that admit to feeling like that.
We aren't representative of the voters.
I think it applies to professional ABs in London and the South East.
Fucking pave over west London and turn it into an airport. I don't care if my flat gets demolished.
If it means an end to being assaulted with pro-Heathrow propaganda every time you pass through the airport I'm all for it, but still prefer the ambition of Boris Island.
Boris island is almost completely bonkers... Apart from the fact that the alternative is half arsed attempts at minor expansions of airports.
From that point of view a 4 runway hub airport would be a great idea.
Why is Boris Island bonkers or indeed the alternative proposal for an Isle of Grain airport by Norman Foster? I'd suggest both have considerably more merit than HS2
I didn't say it was bonkers... Just almost completely.
The reason I said that is because the current claim is we need just 1 runway so building a 4 or 6 runway airport seems extreme.
Of course the reality is that we could probably do with 2 right now and before the paint is dry on the runway we'll need another so it would make sense to just go the whole hog and build a really big one.
Given that there is actually room for it the obvious place really is Gatwick.
There isn't room for it at Gatwick. (Not a multi runway airport) as there is no room for the housing for the people needed to work in the airport. The area has very very low unemployment and very high house prices.
The assassination of Anna Lind made no difference to the outcome of the Swedish referendum in 2003; the attempt to blame the Madrid bombing in 2004 on ETA backfired on the Spanish government. Eastbourne was won by the Lib Dems after Ian Gow was murdered. I would be surprised if swing voters hold the Leave campaign responsible for this murder.
The 2004 bombings were clearly carried out by Muslim extremists and the electorate blamed the Iraq War, this most likely looks like a deranged British nationalist, the murder of Anna Lindh was tragic but not considered a political act at all. Sinn Fein of course was not running in Eastbourne and would have been trounced if they were
Reported that the person had OCD - but otherwise led a calm relatively sheltered life - doesn't seem to have been active politically. Noted that the television reports are not, currently mentioning the alleged shouting.
For all we know, he might be upset over something completely unrelated to the referendum.
I was going on the early reports, of course we await more detailed reports but what he was alleged to have said, I have no doubt he was seriously disturbed
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
Why are you so confident of that?
The evidence on here is that some firm Leavers bottle it when they think Leave might win.
And those are the ones that admit to feeling like that.
We aren't representative of the voters.
Yes, we're more likely to be intense and partisan, and thus less likely to admit to such wavering than a normal person.
I don't think enough Leavers will bottle it at the last moment for Remain to win, not with Leave seeming to build up a sizable lead, all the passion and drive and momentum, but there will be some.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Even if we did know what was heard - and that is a big leap - we don't know what a mentally disturbed person was actually thinking. Or if they even had a rational thought in their head.
As of tonight, we know a promising young MP has been struck down - and that is about all.
Indeed, everything needs to be confirmed and we will know more then
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
The incident will shift few if any votes.
The only thing liable to shift votes is a bucketful of Patronising Sanctimoniousness by people trying to imply that this shows that anyone to the right of Ken Clarke is a loathsome racofascist. Sadly they never learn and there are signs that this is exactly what will happen.
Twitter is an even viler cesspit than ever today. I've seen the most revolting stuff to make a political point, whilst in the same sentence claiming to care about her family.
...the very sketchy evidence of some emotional eye-witnesses...
True, and as many experts can attest, eyewitness evidence can be unreliable. There is however a difference between saying that eyewitnesses are unreliable and saying that the eyewitnesses do not exist. The Guardian names two named (ouch!) individuals here.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
No but I think it's likely to crystallise the swingback that was inevitable to some extent.
Jo Cox was a formidable campaigner for remain and as time evolves I would expect from Corbyn down a request to labour supporters to vote remain as a tribute to her.
Was she? I'm not trying to be rude about her. But until a few hours ago I had never heard of her.
Her violent death is appalling. It is a tragedy for her husband and children. It is a tragedy for those who knew and loved her. But in order to pay proper regard to the serious and sad nature of what happened today it is not necessary to turn the departed into some sort of political colossus or saint. She could have been a ho-hum lazy sort of a person who never uttered a coherent sentence and it would still be an appalling death and a tragedy for her loved ones.
A tragic death does not become more tragic because of the virtue of the victim. If the other person who was attacked had been killed (and let us pray that he survives) and not the MP it would not make a ha'porth of difference to the tragic nature of the event.
Really until we know some more facts there is not much more to be said.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly.
'Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.'
This is the guy that was telling us a few months ago that Andy Burnham was nailed on as Labour leader & when that didn't happen there would be a Hilary Benn coup against Corbyn !
I said Andy Burnham would be the best choice to be Labour leader
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
It will shift a majority of the undecideds, 13% of voters with Survation today
I have posted and mostly followed this site for many years but I never cease to wonder why posters here (and my following comment is not meant in any way to minimise the tragic death of this lady) think every headline, incident, gaff, somehow is a game changer. The reality is that it is the mood music that counts, the momentum that decides the outcome. And that normally takes weeks or months to build. .
Well said. I'm sure I've been guilty of that at some point, but I feel like every header should be bookended with a statement like 'We know normal people won't pick on minutiae and we know single events won't change everything, so pointing that out doesn't mean it won't have some impact, perhaps important, through cumulative impact, through effect on the narrative'. Only a bit more concise.
Humans are ambulatory pattern matchers. It's what we do. If there isn't actually a pattern, the brain is perfectly capable of making one up. At its mildest this can exhibit itself as a superstition or a predilection for conspiracy theories. At its worst (and this is usually due to brain trauma) there are a whole range of agnosias that can hamper or even cripple the ability to lead a normal life.
In light of today's events, BMG are delaying their polls by 24 hours. So they will now be released at 1am Saturday.
All polling is irrelevant now until the weekend, while it does seem a bit inappropriate to look at the political consequences of today's news nonetheless while at lunchtime it was literally neck and neck, if not Leave with the narrow advantage, it is now difficult to see past a narrow Remain win but we shall see. The shooter shouting 'Britain First', allegedly, will be all over the news today and tomorrow
Sorry, the polls showed a dead heat, and the result was close to a dead heat, so the shooting made how much difference?
The difference between an exact dead heat and close to a dead heat is that between victory and defeat and Giffords did survive
I don't think you understand opinion polls. They are not an absolutely accurate measure of opinion.
So if they showed a tie, of 50/50 and the result was 51/49 or 52/48 that is exactly what the poll was predicting within the margin of error regardless of which way the vote actually went.
Hence you are full of very large amounts of extremely smelly bull sh*t.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
I predict that - come the polls on Monday morning - we'll see Lead with leads of oooh... about 6%.
Why are you so confident of that?
The evidence on here is that some firm Leavers bottle it when they think Leave might win.
And those are the ones that admit to feeling like that.
We aren't representative of the voters.
I think it applies to professional ABs in London and the South East.
If a few hundred thousand bottle it, we lose.
This group is largely REMAIN anyway. What has turned the referendum is that immigration has connected as the most salient issue with WWC in the North and Midlands.
Very sad about the Jo Cox tragedy, but really Westminster and the MSM are having a field day dropping sly hints about Hard Right Leavers, and shutting down planned programs as if the the Queen herself had died.
It's all going over the top and giving a chance for Remain to pause and draw breath. It's beginning to smell, and things that start to small funny turn very quickly into a big stink.
Actually it has stopped the governor of the BoE giving a speech... so who knows what effect it will have.
I rather suspect the campaign will be at full swing tomorrow.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Thats a bit silly. Millions have voted by post and millions of others are not going to suddenly change their minds due to one incident however awful.
No but I think it's likely to crystallise the swingback that was inevitable to some extent.
Jo Cox was a formidable campaigner for remain and as time evolves I would expect from Corbyn down a request to labour supporters to vote remain as a tribute to her.
Was she? I'm not trying to be rude about her. But until a few hours ago I had never heard of her.
Her violent death is appalling. It is a tragedy for her husband and children. It is a tragedy for those who knew and loved her. But in order to pay proper regard to the serious and sad nature of what happened today it is not necessary to turn the departed into some sort of political colossus or saint. She could have been a ho-hum lazy sort of a person who never uttered a coherent sentence and it would still be an appalling death and a tragedy for her loved ones.
A tragic death does not become more tragic because of the virtue of the victim. If the other person who was attacked had been killed (and let us pray that he survives) and not the MP it would not make a ha'porth of difference to the tragic nature of the event.
Really until we know some more facts there is not much more to be said.
I imagine you dislike the (if US TV shows are an indication) practice of talking about young victims in terms of their academic aptitude. 'The honors student' etc, that sort of thing.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
I suspect you are correct for undecided voters. If the attacker is linked in people's minds to racism, and if people link racism to Leave, then they will not want to be associated with voting Leave.
The ironic thing is that - if we vote Remain - the ongoing levels of immigration will only increase the pressures in society, increasing racism and increasing risks of violence. We need to manage immigration fairly to make immigration be an issue we can accept in society.
At this time we don't know enough to be sure we understand the motives of the attacker. I have read reporting of witnesses saying he said one thing, and other reports saying that the witnesses had denied having heard that. I have read comments saying that the attacker had mental health issues, but reports saying just that he had worked with people who had mental health issues.
We need the press, commentators and web warriors to be very careful in what they write and focus on the only thing that matters: that someone died today who shouldn't have done, and we should remember that almost all politicians go into public life to try to make the world a better place, even if we disagree with them on how to do that. We can go back to the referendum soon enough.
Tragic news about Jo Cox and shows not even our gun laws are infallible. As for the referendum it will inevitably stop the Leave momentum dead, not that that should be a major consideration today and with a week to go until polling day campaigning will halt until at least the weekend
Might have helped them a bit by killing the coverage of the Farage advert this morning - felt like it could have gone too far. On the other hand it could give Remain an opportunity to recalibrate their campaign a bit and soften it slightly.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly
Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.
No, I said Leave had the edge at lunchtime but you cannot dismiss an event like this which for many of the undecideds will be one of the last major news stories before they decide which way they will go, if it is confirmed that the killer shouted 'Britain First' that is not a good image for Leave however you play it and however unfair that may be
Even if we did know what was heard - and that is a big leap - we don't know what a mentally disturbed person was actually thinking. Or if they even had a rational thought in their head.
As of tonight, we know a promising young MP has been struck down - and that is about all.
Agreed but by responding you are feeding.
If you consider this feeding, then I'll go on a diet.
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
It will shift less than a dozen votes.
It will shift a majority of the undecideds, 13% of voters with Survation today
I have posted and mostly followed this site for many years but I never cease to wonder why posters here (and my following comment is not meant in any way to minimise the tragic death of this lady) think every headline, incident, gaff, somehow is a game changer. The reality is that it is the mood music that counts, the momentum that decides the outcome. And that normally takes weeks or months to build. .
Well said. I'm sure I've been guilty of that at some point, but I feel like every header should be bookended with a statement like 'We know normal people won't pick on minutiae and we know single events won't change everything, so pointing that out doesn't mean it won't have some impact, perhaps important, through cumulative impact, through effect on the narrative'. Only a bit more concise.
That said, overreacting to things like that keeps things interesting. Remember daily yougovs and moe changes?
Well i have been guilty of it too, When Gordon Brown was caught talking about "some bigoted woman" and the aftermath. I said to myself "game over bang on Tory majority"...I doubt it moved a single vote.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly.
'Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.'
This is the guy that was telling us a few months ago that Andy Burnham was nailed on as Labour leader & when that didn't happen there would be a Hilary Benn coup against Corbyn !
I said Andy Burnham would be the best choice to be Labour leader
Another reason to question your judgement!
If you asked Andy Burnham if he thought he was the best choice to be Labour leader, I doubt you'd get a straight answer. He's even less decisive than David Miliband.
Comments
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/
It's hard to know what to say about today's events. It feel's like the country has gone mad.
Will be pleased when the referendum is over, whatever the result. It has all got far too nasty on all sides.
I certainly wouldn't write a piece of the tone that has been described at such a time, not least because the facts are still unclear, and if the Spectator has or decides to pull it, I have no objection to that, but if someone wants to make the attempt to address something politically, which may - though I think not here - be appropriate in some contexts (for instance where the not too soon argument may be used to deflect), they should not feel it impolitic to do so. If they write a piece of trash like a great big cock, they will face the derision they deserve, but sometimes worthwhile comment may be found that might otherwise be lost should the principle be not too soon as a hard rule.
'Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly'
How on earth can you claim that when we don't even know the facts ?
"If future research confirms oxygen-driven tumorigenesis in the human lung, the present study will join the substantial list of ecological analyses that spurred new insights into cancer etiology"
It seems very much a hypothesis rather than an accepted fact. Other theories could include metabolic changes in individuals living at high altitude, less dampness from high altitude, better air quality at high altitude, and the list goes on.
If nothing else the British public demonstrated in how quickly the LDs declined (even before 'betrayals' started up, that despite what they may profess they do not like centrists or compromisers. The LDs therefore presumably have to go after Cameroonian Tories if the Tories go or are perceived to go more to the right (could win back blue liberals in the west country) or they need to go after those agog at Corbynite Labour machinations. Not both.
I know it sounds macabre but only 9 hours ago almost everyone was saying on here that Brexit was or should be odds-on.
We know nothing of the next week.
http://azcapitoltimes.com/strike-everything/2010/09/02/poll-shows-kelly-giffords-in-a-dead-heat/
If this referendum breaks Remain purely based on this tragedy, it'll be proof that the British people have been overwhelmed by sentimentality and we'll deserve all we get. I don't mind losing. I just don't want to lose like that.
Still, I only used one hypened comment and one parenthetical, so could be worse.
"Vote Remain: it's what Jo would have wanted...."
Let's find out the facts first. What gets said / reported in the immediate aftermath is rarely the full story.
But to everything there is a season. And today - for her family, friends and colleagues - is a day for mourning.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/robot-called-amelia-to-do-the-job-of-human-workers-at-a-local-co/
The only thing liable to shift votes is a bucketful of Patronising Sanctimoniousness by people trying to imply that this shows that anyone to the right of Ken Clarke is a loathsome racofascist. Sadly they never learn and there are signs that this is exactly what will happen.
Fidanzato = boyfriend. He's flying in from Germany actually. I don't need a hotel especially suitable for cheese.
It's all going over the top and giving a chance for Remain to pause and draw breath. It's beginning to smell, and things that start to small funny turn very quickly into a big stink.
The reason I said that is because the current claim is we need just 1 runway so building a 4 or 6 runway airport seems extreme.
Of course the reality is that we could probably do with 2 right now and before the paint is dry on the runway we'll need another so it would make sense to just go the whole hog and build a really big one.
Its one of the great things about the UK the access that we have to our political representatives. To the best of my knowledge, many political representatives in countries around the world don't hold surgeries etc that our MP's do. Today that privilege was tragically abused. RIP Jo Cox.
But your argument seems to be that it will change the whole dynamic of the last 6 days of the campaign.
It might, but it might not.
Both sides will soften their campaigns but I cannot see Leave winning now, their momentum has gone and the killer will be seen to have supported their campaign, however unfairly.
'Bullshit plain and simple. You are projecting your own bias onto events.'
This is the guy that was telling us a few months ago that Andy Burnham was nailed on as Labour leader & when that didn't happen there would be a Hilary Benn coup against Corbyn !
The programme also suggests Coe may have misled the UK parliament.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/36541301
And maybe something as sad as this should, but it doesn't.
The evidence on here is that some firm Leavers bottle it when they think Leave might win.
And those are the ones that admit to feeling like that.
Except Boris Islanders.
I rather suspect the campaign will be at full swing tomorrow.
As of tonight, we know a promising young MP has been struck down - and that is about all.
For all we know, he might be upset over something completely unrelated to the referendum.
The perpetrator was mentally ill.
There is not a mentally ill candidate in this election.
It is therefore irrelevant.
If this attack had been carried out by a religious extremist rather than a mentally unwell man, we'd be talking about ploughing on in defiance.
That said, overreacting to things like that keeps things interesting. Remember daily yougovs and moe changes?
If a few hundred thousand bottle it, we lose.
I don't think enough Leavers will bottle it at the last moment for Remain to win, not with Leave seeming to build up a sizable lead, all the passion and drive and momentum, but there will be some.
Her violent death is appalling. It is a tragedy for her husband and children. It is a tragedy for those who knew and loved her. But in order to pay proper regard to the serious and sad nature of what happened today it is not necessary to turn the departed into some sort of political colossus or saint. She could have been a ho-hum lazy sort of a person who never uttered a coherent sentence and it would still be an appalling death and a tragedy for her loved ones.
A tragic death does not become more tragic because of the virtue of the victim. If the other person who was attacked had been killed (and let us pray that he survives) and not the MP it would not make a ha'porth of difference to the tragic nature of the event.
Really until we know some more facts there is not much more to be said.
So if they showed a tie, of 50/50 and the result was 51/49 or 52/48 that is exactly what the poll was predicting within the margin of error regardless of which way the vote actually went.
Hence you are full of very large amounts of extremely smelly bull sh*t.
The ironic thing is that - if we vote Remain - the ongoing levels of immigration will only increase the pressures in society, increasing racism and increasing risks of violence. We need to manage immigration fairly to make immigration be an issue we can accept in society.
At this time we don't know enough to be sure we understand the motives of the attacker. I have read reporting of witnesses saying he said one thing, and other reports saying that the witnesses had denied having heard that. I have read comments saying that the attacker had mental health issues, but reports saying just that he had worked with people who had mental health issues.
We need the press, commentators and web warriors to be very careful in what they write and focus on the only thing that matters: that someone died today who shouldn't have done, and we should remember that almost all politicians go into public life to try to make the world a better place, even if we disagree with them on how to do that. We can go back to the referendum soon enough.
Everything has some impact. Its how much.