So here’s one thing Brexit didn’t do. Kill off London as the art capital of Europe. This place is jammers
Bodes well for the ice-skating come winter.
I confess I hadn't heard of Frieze.
Obviously some thing for the North London Metropolitan Elite.
It’s probably the most famous art fair in the world? Alongside Basel
It’s joyous. Enormous. Totally open to the public. But sold out this year
Honestly, I've never heard of it.
In any case, if I were going anywhere today, I'd be heading to Ascot for Champions Day - they'll get 30,000 for that. The coronavirus hasn't killed off horse racing either
My girlfriend likes to remind me that if you call it "horse racing" rather than just "racing" it means you're a filthy casual.
Obviously I continue to use "horse racing" all the more.
I alway bridle at the American 'horseback riding'. What else would one ride? And how else would you ride a horse?
Elephants. Obviously.
Many years ago, went to the Chitwan reserve in Nepal. We had to stay out side the reserve. We entered the reserve each day, by elephant, wading/swimming across the river at dawn.
Giant tortoises, too. But the racing is reminiscent of cricket in its pace (not better or worse, just different).
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
Does being given paintings by (in both readings) a family member count?
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
I've bought many pieces of art. But then my wife is an artist.
It’s surprising how many Brits, even Londoners, have never heard of Frieze. It’s probably the best art fair in the world. Certainly one of the biggest
You get to see the finest ultra modern art from all over the globe in one place. Plus lots of weird/fascinating/beautiful/pretentious/insanely rich/laughable people
Then you go to Frieze Masters and see incredible ancient, primitive, famous art from Raphael to New Guinea carvings to Chinese calligraphy to Warhol
And it happens once a year on our doorstep. And so many people are just… unaware?
I've never heard of it either and glancing at the BBC News front page it doesn't even feature at all that I can see. Whereas Edinburgh Fringe etc always does.
Yes it’s bonkers. It’s easily as important in the art world as Edinburgh is in performing arts
It also generates vast sums of cash as people flood into london from across the world - and buy all the art. Not just here but at auction houses and other galleries and private sales…
Different approach to publicity, different clienteles, different targets, perhaps. Theatres need bums on seats (at Edinburgh fringe above all) but any art purchaser will soon know to go to the Frieze. Maybe it features quite prominently in, say, Country Life?
It’s surprising how many Brits, even Londoners, have never heard of Frieze. It’s probably the best art fair in the world. Certainly one of the biggest
You get to see the finest ultra modern art from all over the globe in one place. Plus lots of weird/fascinating/beautiful/pretentious/insanely rich/laughable people
Then you go to Frieze Masters and see incredible ancient, primitive, famous art from Raphael to New Guinea carvings to Chinese calligraphy to Warhol
And it happens once a year on our doorstep. And so many people are just… unaware?
I've been to the Frieze many times, and it's an unusual market because it's high end... but not too high end. It's the kind of place where someone can wander around and see £3,000 pieces of art displayed near £1m pieces.
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
Does being given paintings by (in both readings) a family member count?
As long as you hang/show them. Not to get too Alan Clark about it most of the stuff on my walls is inherited or given, though I have purchased as well. Hoping to negotiate mates rates on another soonish.
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
I've bought many pieces of art. But then my wife is an artist.
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
Does being given paintings by (in both readings) a family member count?
As long as you hang/show them. Not to get too Alan Clark about it most of the stuff on my walls is inherited or given, though I have purchased as well. Hoping to negotiate mates rates on another soonish.
Who actually wants it to get dark at 4 pm? No one. Why do we do it? Because it worked in the First World War. Or something.
Let's make this the last year for this crap. December and January are depressing enough.
Except that summer time is the change, not winter time.
The only solution is to be closer to the Equator.
There's no reason why we can't stay on BST all year. If Scottish farmers don't like it Scotland could have a different time zone to the rest of the country. It's horrible when it gets dark at 4pm.
It’s surprising how many Brits, even Londoners, have never heard of Frieze. It’s probably the best art fair in the world. Certainly one of the biggest
You get to see the finest ultra modern art from all over the globe in one place. Plus lots of weird/fascinating/beautiful/pretentious/insanely rich/laughable people
Then you go to Frieze Masters and see incredible ancient, primitive, famous art from Raphael to New Guinea carvings to Chinese calligraphy to Warhol
And it happens once a year on our doorstep. And so many people are just… unaware?
I've been to the Frieze many times, and it's an unusual market because it's high end... but not too high end. It's the kind of place where someone can wander around and see £3,000 pieces of art displayed near £1m pieces.
The eclecticism is fabulous. I’m sitting by the Agnews stand in Frieze Masters. They’ve got lots of gorgeous Victorian paintings for sale, including a lovely Waterhouse for £1m
But they also have a turbine from an original Concorde engine. Who knew. And it’s sold.
“Price on application”
Is that £2k or £200k? How on earth do you value that?
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
About twelve years ago, we nearly bought a beautiful print of a tiger. It was by a well-known artist, but did not cost that much and Mrs J loved the picture. In the end we decided against, partly because we were moved frequently around rented accommodation and didn't (*) want the hassle of putting it on the wall whenever we moved.
The artist?
Rolf Harris.
We're quite glad we didn't buy it. Instead, we have some antique paintings given to us by my parents. and a few by my mother-in-law (who did an art degree in her sixties, and has exhibited many times in Turkey (**).
(*) Well, I didn't. (**) She wants me to do a sitting. In the nude. So far, I have resisted....
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
I bet the Americans are wearing facemasks.
No one is wearing face masks. As the day has worn on everyone has abandoned them. Interesting. Even the Asians
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
About twelve years ago, we nearly bought a beautiful print of a tiger. It was by a well-known artist, but did not cost that much and Mrs J loved the picture. In the end we decided against, partly because we were moved frequently around rented accommodation and didn't (*) want the hassle of putting it on the wall whenever we moved.
The artist?
Rolf Harris.
We're quite glad we didn't buy it. Instead, we have some antique paintings given to us by my parents. and a few by my mother-in-law (who did an art degree in her sixties, and has exhibited many times in Turkey (**).
(*) Well, I didn't. (**) She wants me to do a sitting. In the nude. So far, I have resisted....
It’s surprising how many Brits, even Londoners, have never heard of Frieze. It’s probably the best art fair in the world. Certainly one of the biggest
You get to see the finest ultra modern art from all over the globe in one place. Plus lots of weird/fascinating/beautiful/pretentious/insanely rich/laughable people
Then you go to Frieze Masters and see incredible ancient, primitive, famous art from Raphael to New Guinea carvings to Chinese calligraphy to Warhol
And it happens once a year on our doorstep. And so many people are just… unaware?
I've never heard of it either and glancing at the BBC News front page it doesn't even feature at all that I can see. Whereas Edinburgh Fringe etc always does.
Yes it’s bonkers. It’s easily as important in the art world as Edinburgh is in performing arts
It also generates vast sums of cash as people flood into london from across the world - and buy all the art. Not just here but at auction houses and other galleries and private sales…
Im guessing the Beeb has more luvvies in performing arts than they have in art.
Funnily enough I just saw Alan Yentob. The controversial BBC arts presenter
He's not a controversial arts presenter.
He's a controversial ex-Chair of the Board of Trustees at Kids Company.
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
All there for the art, is it the large concentration of money?
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
I bet the Americans are wearing facemasks.
No one is wearing face masks. As the day has worn on everyone has abandoned them. Interesting. Even the Asians
Watch out, you will soon get told off for generalising about groups.
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
About twelve years ago, we nearly bought a beautiful print of a tiger. It was by a well-known artist, but did not cost that much and Mrs J loved the picture. In the end we decided against, partly because we were moved frequently around rented accommodation and didn't (*) want the hassle of putting it on the wall whenever we moved.
The artist?
Rolf Harris.
We're quite glad we didn't buy it. Instead, we have some antique paintings given to us by my parents. and a few by my mother-in-law (who did an art degree in her sixties, and has exhibited many times in Turkey (**).
(*) Well, I didn't. (**) She wants me to do a sitting. In the nude. So far, I have resisted....
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
About twelve years ago, we nearly bought a beautiful print of a tiger. It was by a well-known artist, but did not cost that much and Mrs J loved the picture. In the end we decided against, partly because we were moved frequently around rented accommodation and didn't (*) want the hassle of putting it on the wall whenever we moved.
The artist?
Rolf Harris.
We're quite glad we didn't buy it. Instead, we have some antique paintings given to us by my parents. and a few by my mother-in-law (who did an art degree in her sixties, and has exhibited many times in Turkey (**).
(*) Well, I didn't. (**) She wants me to do a sitting. In the nude. So far, I have resisted....
Title: Cold Day
Will that become a more or less attractive project as you move into (since Clark has been mentioned) bufferdom?
It’s surprising how many Brits, even Londoners, have never heard of Frieze. It’s probably the best art fair in the world. Certainly one of the biggest
You get to see the finest ultra modern art from all over the globe in one place. Plus lots of weird/fascinating/beautiful/pretentious/insanely rich/laughable people
Then you go to Frieze Masters and see incredible ancient, primitive, famous art from Raphael to New Guinea carvings to Chinese calligraphy to Warhol
And it happens once a year on our doorstep. And so many people are just… unaware?
I've never heard of it either and glancing at the BBC News front page it doesn't even feature at all that I can see. Whereas Edinburgh Fringe etc always does.
Yes it’s bonkers. It’s easily as important in the art world as Edinburgh is in performing arts
It also generates vast sums of cash as people flood into london from across the world - and buy all the art. Not just here but at auction houses and other galleries and private sales…
Im guessing the Beeb has more luvvies in performing arts than they have in art.
Funnily enough I just saw Alan Yentob. The controversial BBC arts presenter
He's not a controversial arts presenter.
He's a controversial ex-Chair of the Board of Trustees at Kids Company.
He was also a controversial senior manager at the BBC.
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
Now I really need to now the degrees of Leonness, how many categories there are.
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
I bet the Americans are wearing facemasks.
No one is wearing face masks. As the day has worn on everyone has abandoned them. Interesting. Even the Asians
I just came back from Sainsbury's Ilford North. I wore a mask, so were plenty of others.
I did buy a couple pieces of art around 4 years ago from an artist whose stuff I had seen at a street stall in Bath, which remains the only artwork I have ever purchased.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
Now I really need to now the degrees of Leonness, how many categories there are.
I'm aware of about 5.
But it is like Freemasonry and Charlatanry; we have no idea how far it goes.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Of course you should not allow anyone in who is not essential at such a shocking event . Religion is pandered to too much anyway . Religion shoudl take a step back from demanding special rights especially as this murder seems to be religious motivated or at least the murderer thinking he was doing it in th ename of religion
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
None during the last two years.
But before then 22 from local exhibitions, 11 from ebay and 6 by either myself or family members.
You can get some very nice art, especially if you like abstracts and watercolours, for under £200.
I'm sure other PBers have more and more expensive.
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
Now I really need to now the degrees of Leonness, how many categories there are.
I'm aware of about 5.
But it is like Freemasonry and Charlatanry; we have no idea how far it goes.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Of course you should not allow anyone in who is not essential at such a shocking event . Religion is pandered to too much anyway . Religion shoudl take a step back from demanding special rights especially as this murder seems to be religious motivated or at least the murderer thinking he was doing it in th ename of religion
A dying man should be denied comfort because you disagree with his beliefs?
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
Now I really need to now the degrees of Leonness, how many categories there are.
I'm aware of about 5.
But it is like Freemasonry and Charlatanry; we have no idea how far it goes.
Too far, usually.
Well done on reaching 1000 comments in just 5 weeks - prolific
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
About twelve years ago, we nearly bought a beautiful print of a tiger. It was by a well-known artist, but did not cost that much and Mrs J loved the picture. In the end we decided against, partly because we were moved frequently around rented accommodation and didn't (*) want the hassle of putting it on the wall whenever we moved.
The artist?
Rolf Harris.
We're quite glad we didn't buy it. Instead, we have some antique paintings given to us by my parents. and a few by my mother-in-law (who did an art degree in her sixties, and has exhibited many times in Turkey (**).
(*) Well, I didn't. (**) She wants me to do a sitting. In the nude. So far, I have resisted....
As long as it's not Rolf asking you to pose..
Give the fellow a break. He's already in jail; he doesn't deserve a worse punishment ...
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Of course you should not allow anyone in who is not essential at such a shocking event . Religion is pandered to too much anyway . Religion shoudl take a step back from demanding special rights especially as this murder seems to be religious motivated or at least the murderer thinking he was doing it in th ename of religion
It is for the sake of the victim, not the priest. A devout Catholic like Amess would have received great comfort in his dying minutes from being given the Last Rites.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Of course you should not allow anyone in who is not essential at such a shocking event . Religion is pandered to too much anyway . Religion shoudl take a step back from demanding special rights especially as this murder seems to be religious motivated or at least the murderer thinking he was doing it in th ename of religion
A dying man should be denied comfort because you disagree with his beliefs?
OK.
no I coudl not care less of his beliefs in a god - Its not the right place to do it though is it? No other normal non medicla or police personal woudl have been allowed at that point so why somebody who practically could do nothing . If he was conciousss i am sure he was not really thinking abou the last rites - Tbh why woudl anyone want to see somebody giving the last rites which essentially means they are tellign you you are dying (not exactly a fkin comfort is it?) - Religion shoudl be more humble and not demand crap like this .
If he was still alive then medics would have been battling to save him and the last thing they woudl have wanted was some priest telling him he was dying. Fkin creepy if you ask me
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
However, you also have paramedics trying to deal with his injuries....
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
There's a massive difference between physical health and "spiritual health".
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
However, you also have paramedics trying to deal with his injuries....
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
There's a massive difference between physical health and "spiritual health".
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
You really think the murderer would be acquitted when he stood there waiting to be arrested and was seen by plenty of witnesses to have stabbed the MP just because a priest came in and gave the Last Rites? Ok.
I think this has more to do with your anti-religious views than truly believing it could compromise a prosecution.
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
Now I really need to now the degrees of Leonness, how many categories there are.
I'm aware of about 5.
But it is like Freemasonry and Charlatanry; we have no idea how far it goes.
Too far, usually.
Well done on reaching 1000 comments in just 5 weeks - prolific
I think the Russians pay per comment at their bot farms *
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Of course you should not allow anyone in who is not essential at such a shocking event . Religion is pandered to too much anyway . Religion shoudl take a step back from demanding special rights especially as this murder seems to be religious motivated or at least the murderer thinking he was doing it in th ename of religion
That is why I qualified that Amess should be conscious. Comfort should be for the injured man, not the priest.
ETA scooped so let me go out on a limb by suggesting police should also be quicker to reopen roads after accidents or incidents, even if it does mean evidence might be lost (although from my limited observations, often the scene is guarded long after they've stopped looking).
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
However, you also have paramedics trying to deal with his injuries....
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
There's a massive difference between physical health and "spiritual health".
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
You really think the murderer would be acquitted when he stood there waiting to be arrested and was seen by plenty of witnesses to have stabbed the MP just because a priest came in and gave the Last Rites? Ok.
I think this has more to do with your anti-religious views than truly believing it could compromise a prosecution.
I doubt David Amess asked for any last rites and could have been less not more comforted if a priest turned up tellign him he was dying. Last rites should be a planned thing at the request of the person they are administered to not an interference in a murder scene
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
However, you also have paramedics trying to deal with his injuries....
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
There's a massive difference between physical health and "spiritual health".
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
You really think the murderer would be acquitted when he stood there waiting to be arrested and was seen by plenty of witnesses to have stabbed the MP just because a priest came in and gave the Last Rites? Ok.
I think this has more to do with your anti-religious views than truly believing it could compromise a prosecution.
It's got nothing to do with my views on religion, I'm keeping my views to myself in this instance as my views aren't relevant. His views matter infinitely more than my own do.
But quite rightly we preserve the crime scene in circumstances like this. He might get comfort from seeing a priest and I'd respect that in general, as his choice. Someone else might get comfort from seeing an imam, someone else from seeing a relative. If I was dying I'd probably want to see my wife, everyone has their own choices.
Would a relative be allowed in to hold his hand as he fights for his life/dies? If so, I see no reason a priest shouldn't be treated the same. If not, I see no reason a priest shouldn't be treated the same either.
I see the PB art conosoors have signed in. Quick straw poll, hands up which PBers have bought a piece of art in the last couple of years (prints of Spitfires and David Shepherd elephants don't count for this one)?
About twelve years ago, we nearly bought a beautiful print of a tiger. It was by a well-known artist, but did not cost that much and Mrs J loved the picture. In the end we decided against, partly because we were moved frequently around rented accommodation and didn't (*) want the hassle of putting it on the wall whenever we moved.
The artist?
Rolf Harris.
We're quite glad we didn't buy it. Instead, we have some antique paintings given to us by my parents. and a few by my mother-in-law (who did an art degree in her sixties, and has exhibited many times in Turkey (**).
(*) Well, I didn't. (**) She wants me to do a sitting. In the nude. So far, I have resisted....
As long as it's not Rolf asking you to pose..
Give the fellow a break. He's already in jail; he doesn't deserve a worse punishment ...
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Of course you should not allow anyone in who is not essential at such a shocking event . Religion is pandered to too much anyway . Religion shoudl take a step back from demanding special rights especially as this murder seems to be religious motivated or at least the murderer thinking he was doing it in th ename of religion
That last comment - that the comfort of a dying victim has anything to do with an assumed motivation of a murdered - is low.
For the other, I expect that there are already rules and principles in place. We shall find out.
The additional disturbance seems to me to be pretty minimal, and perhaps justified in the circumstances.
In the Blue Book of the War (1916) among those singled out for praise is a British priest who, mortally wounded, administers the last rites to others on the battlefield, including a German soldier.
Not religious myself, but if possible such things should be allowed for those who are.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
However, you also have paramedics trying to deal with his injuries....
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
There's a massive difference between physical health and "spiritual health".
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
You really think the murderer would be acquitted when he stood there waiting to be arrested and was seen by plenty of witnesses to have stabbed the MP just because a priest came in and gave the Last Rites? Ok.
I think this has more to do with your anti-religious views than truly believing it could compromise a prosecution.
I doubt David Amess asked for any last rites and could have been less not more comforted if a priest turned up tellign him he was dying. Last rites should be a planned thing at the request of the person they are administered to not an interference in a murder scene
David was very keen on Christianity and I think would have appreciated it. I agree with Mr Ed, though I realise that the police will have been following standing instructions.
In the Blue Book of the War (1916) among those singled out for praise is a British priest who, mortally wounded, administers the last rites to others on the battlefield, including a German soldier.
Not religious myself, but if possible such things should be allowed for those who are.
I've always thought the idea of war 'for God' was crazy. What sort of God are they!?
I'm an atheist anyway.
Some of the battlefield priests. chaplains and undoubtedly others of other religions really have been the most astonishingly brave and great men though.
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
I bet the Americans are wearing facemasks.
No one is wearing face masks. As the day has worn on everyone has abandoned them. Interesting. Even the Asians
Watch out, you will soon get told off for generalising about groups.
Quite so . Most people in Sainsbury still masked here today. Clearly down from the peak, though probably up slightly on last week.
Whays the normal procedure for last rites where evidence needs to be preserved. Could the priest have gone in with a mask, gloves and overboots ? I expect it isn't something that arises too often so the officers in charge defaulted ti 'no' though it probably should have a procedure
Also, without getting too Leony, the two Frieze fairs probably constitute the greatest concentration of beautiful young women in one time and place, anywhere on the planet, outside of very very big high end Hollywood parties
I bet the Americans are wearing facemasks.
No one is wearing face masks. As the day has worn on everyone has abandoned them. Interesting. Even the Asians
Watch out, you will soon get told off for generalising about groups.
Quite so . Most people in Sainsbury still masked here today. Clearly down from the peak, though probably up slightly on last week.
How did you Amess interview go this morning, @NickPalmer ?
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
However, you also have paramedics trying to deal with his injuries....
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
There's a massive difference between physical health and "spiritual health".
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
You really think the murderer would be acquitted when he stood there waiting to be arrested and was seen by plenty of witnesses to have stabbed the MP just because a priest came in and gave the Last Rites? Ok.
I think this has more to do with your anti-religious views than truly believing it could compromise a prosecution.
I doubt David Amess asked for any last rites and could have been less not more comforted if a priest turned up tellign him he was dying. Last rites should be a planned thing at the request of the person they are administered to not an interference in a murder scene
David was very keen on Christianity and I think would have appreciated it. I agree with Mr Ed, though I realise that the police will have been following standing instructions.
Standing instructions should exist one way or another because in the 'fog of war' while dealing with an incident something that doesn't seem important now could be very important later.
So either it should be allowed, following requirements (eg gloves etc) or it shouldn't be. Saying "this is an open and shut case so we will allow it this time even though it's not normally allowed" shouldn't happen because what seems trivial now could be critical once it gets to trial.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
However, you also have paramedics trying to deal with his injuries....
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
There's a massive difference between physical health and "spiritual health".
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
You really think the murderer would be acquitted when he stood there waiting to be arrested and was seen by plenty of witnesses to have stabbed the MP just because a priest came in and gave the Last Rites? Ok.
I think this has more to do with your anti-religious views than truly believing it could compromise a prosecution.
I doubt David Amess asked for any last rites and could have been less not more comforted if a priest turned up tellign him he was dying. Last rites should be a planned thing at the request of the person they are administered to not an interference in a murder scene
David was very keen on Christianity and I think would have appreciated it. I agree with Mr Ed, though I realise that the police will have been following standing instructions.
Standing instructions should exist one way or another because in the 'fog of war' while dealing with an incident something that doesn't seem important now could be very important later.
So either it should be allowed, following requirements (eg gloves etc) or it shouldn't be. Saying "this is an open and shut case so we will allow it this time even though it's not normally allowed" shouldn't happen because what seems trivial now could be critical once it gets to trial.
The interest of the victim is, aiui, supposed to be a priority; I hardly hear anything else in public rhetoric.
Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
That's different. I've not read the Times but it does occur that talking about mothers and fathers can be ambiguous depending on context, now that there are so many "non-traditional" family structures in place. In terms of maternity wards, it is obvious who the mother is, so it is bloody silly to replace the word. In terms of later benefits or schools admin or maternity leave, is mother the birth-giver or the woman who sleeps with dad and butters the toast in the morning? And where there is no female adult in the family?
The word "parent" will do in those situations. But there is absolutely no reason to remove or replace the word "mother" for the vast majority of situations when it is perfectly obvious that there is a mother and who it is. And I really don't see what business it is of a charity which claims to speak for some of a minority group to tell public bodies how to call women. How about asking women? Or, you know, mothers. There are lots of us about.
Sorry but I can't get too worked up over this but, as I said, I've not seen the Times. Maybe the charity was involved because it was consulted, or maybe it did stick its oar in uninvited, I don't know. But as you suggest, sometimes it might be appropriate to replace the word "mother" with "parent" in certain contexts. Chestfeeding is silly. Revising old forms to remove assumptions that are no longer valid does seem a worthwhile exercise.
They are paid a fortune by Scottish government to come up with this ignorant drivel, if the morons really try to put this through it will be the end for them and their green lickspittles.
Talking of worst episodes of our history. Another one for the police to explain if true.
It's a crime scene.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
Given the murderer hung around to be arrested, trace physical evidence ought not to have been a major consideration. The priest should have been allowed in, provided Amess was still conscious at that point. Inspector Jobsworth was wrong.
Of course you should not allow anyone in who is not essential at such a shocking event . Religion is pandered to too much anyway . Religion shoudl take a step back from demanding special rights especially as this murder seems to be religious motivated or at least the murderer thinking he was doing it in th ename of religion
Sorry, but cannot agree. IMHO this has ZERO to do with YOUR or anyone else's views on religion.
And the killers views on religion have even LESS relevance. Your logic here is truly fuzzy!
Whether David Amess was conscious or not is immaterial. The Sacrament of the Sick (doesn't have to be at point of death) is about grace. It is exceptionally important to a practising Catholic.
meanwhile back at the ranch . . . or rather the Old Dominion . . .
Politico.com - Virginia is for worriers: Governor race poses real risk to Dem agenda “If things don’t go well" for Terry McAuliffe, one party lawmaker said, "there’s going to be a lot of different reckonings here.”
Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
‘Yer can’t even menshun breastfeedin’ without bein’ arrested nowadays’
Yes the sexuality debate is all shits and giggles if you're an SNP Type
You are a moron of the highest order , why not crawl back under your rock and disappear again.
Good God man. Three posts in succession that add nothing and are simply unpleasant. Everyone knows you're capable of wise, reasoned and witty comment. Do try.
I'm not an expert in the last rites so can anyone tell me if the priest needs to be in physical contact with the dying person?
If you are prepped for it you anoint, and give them a communion wafer. Presumably a random passing priest would not have those about his person, but would just say a prayer sort of thing. I am appalled he wasn't allowed to do even that.
Absolutely jammed. Visitors from all over the world. Sales pinging.
London will not be beaten
Not my thing (Frieze) , but the resurrection of arts etc in London is most welcome. I wonder to what extent the spring (morphically) will visit those areas that have become really dead. Great to wave the London flag even if it looks like Boris on a highwire.
Who actually wants it to get dark at 4 pm? No one. Why do we do it? Because it worked in the First World War. Or something.
Let's make this the last year for this crap. December and January are depressing enough.
Beg to differ. It makes a positive difference in the north of the UK to have light mornings, at least, for the morning travel and morning hound-walk.
Then let's have two different time zones, like many other countries. If we can have two different Parliaments and legal sytems, having two different times in North and South Britain shouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility.
Comments
http://thezooreviewer.blogspot.com/2019/10/save-horse-ride-tortoise.html
I suspect we probably need to add Shanghai to the list.
Nowhere in Europe comes close, as an art market.
Who actually wants it to get dark at 4 pm? No one.
Why do we do it? Because it worked in the First World War. Or something.
Let's make this the last year for this crap. December and January are depressing enough.
Not to get too Alan Clark about it most of the stuff on my walls is inherited or given, though I have purchased as well. Hoping to negotiate mates rates on another soonish.
The only solution is to be closer to the Equator.
But they also have a turbine from an original Concorde engine. Who knew. And it’s sold.
“Price on application”
Is that £2k or £200k? How on earth do you value that?
The artist?
Rolf Harris.
We're quite glad we didn't buy it. Instead, we have some antique paintings given to us by my parents. and a few by my mother-in-law (who did an art degree in her sixties, and has exhibited many times in Turkey (**).
(*) Well, I didn't.
(**) She wants me to do a sitting. In the nude. So far, I have resisted....
He's a controversial ex-Chair of the Board of Trustees at Kids Company.
You cannot violate the integrity of scene or accidentally destroy/contaminate evidence.
Any half decent barrister would have a field day in having a lot of the physical evidence excluded from the trial.
And as my wife just pointed out you need to deal with his mental / spiritual health as well as his physical health.
This might be something PACE needs updating with.
But it is like Freemasonry and Charlatanry; we have no idea how far it goes.
But before then 22 from local exhibitions, 11 from ebay and 6 by either myself or family members.
You can get some very nice art, especially if you like abstracts and watercolours, for under £200.
I'm sure other PBers have more and more expensive.
OK.
Art. Art?
Even more effete than bloody restaurant reviews
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/10/16/nazanin-zaghari-ratcliffe-loses-appeal-against-second-jail-term/
If he was still alive then medics would have been battling to save him and the last thing they woudl have wanted was some priest telling him he was dying. Fkin creepy if you ask me
Preserving the crime scene surely has to take priority. Unfortunately. The last thing that anyone should want is the risk of an acquittal due to the crime scene being compromised.
As for the audit trail, think it should be pretty easy with a priest.
I think this has more to do with your anti-religious views than truly believing it could compromise a prosecution.
* only joking
ETA scooped so let me go out on a limb by suggesting police should also be quicker to reopen roads after accidents or incidents, even if it does mean evidence might be lost (although from my limited observations, often the scene is guarded long after they've stopped looking).
But quite rightly we preserve the crime scene in circumstances like this. He might get comfort from seeing a priest and I'd respect that in general, as his choice. Someone else might get comfort from seeing an imam, someone else from seeing a relative. If I was dying I'd probably want to see my wife, everyone has their own choices.
Would a relative be allowed in to hold his hand as he fights for his life/dies? If so, I see no reason a priest shouldn't be treated the same. If not, I see no reason a priest shouldn't be treated the same either.
For the other, I expect that there are already rules and principles in place. We shall find out.
The additional disturbance seems to me to be pretty minimal, and perhaps justified in the circumstances.
Not religious myself, but if possible such things should be allowed for those who are.
I'm an atheist anyway.
Some of the battlefield priests. chaplains and undoubtedly others of other religions really have been the most astonishingly brave and great men though.
I expect it isn't something that arises too often so the officers in charge defaulted ti 'no' though it probably should have a procedure
So either it should be allowed, following requirements (eg gloves etc) or it shouldn't be. Saying "this is an open and shut case so we will allow it this time even though it's not normally allowed" shouldn't happen because what seems trivial now could be critical once it gets to trial.
That principle should have material weight here.
This must have been an issue before now.
(And yes, knowing what we know of Sir David's beliefs, denying him the last rites was at least unkind.)
I do agree with your latter point.
(Happy to be corrected.)
And the killers views on religion have even LESS relevance. Your logic here is truly fuzzy!
Politico.com - Virginia is for worriers: Governor race poses real risk to Dem agenda
“If things don’t go well" for Terry McAuliffe, one party lawmaker said, "there’s going to be a lot of different reckonings here.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/10/16/democrats-reckoning-virginia-governor-race-516086
By the way, "Virginia is for worriers" is a take-off on the long-standing tourism slogan: "Virginia is for lovers".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58939716
The Standard agrees with me
"Perhaps I’m swayed by the relief of seeing the art world returning to normal, but I can’t remember a better looking Frieze London than this."
https://www.standard.co.uk/culture/exhibitions/frieze-london-2021-art-fair-best-b960418.html
Absolutely jammed. Visitors from all over the world. Sales pinging.
London will not be beaten