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Lessons from the worst episodes of our history – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 16 in General
imageLessons from the worst episodes of our history – politicalbetting.com

55 years ago this week, a man-made landslide of coal mining by-product killed over 100 Welsh schoolchildren. It was a tragedy. It was preventable. And it got me thinking.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 779
    At the time of Grenfell tragedy I lived in cladded multi-storey.,

    I found the 24/7 coverage for about 5 solid days quite stressful but my girlfriend at the the time wanted to watch it...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,602
    A quibble about causation: most of those happened because of the laws of physics, with a bit of biology thrown in. We live in a dangerous environment anyway, and we do dangerous things like coal and oil mining. Systems aren't what cause things, they are what are meant to prevent them.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,676
    Very interesting header, thank you @Quincel

    Anyone interested in railway safety history, I’d recommend this:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-Majestys-Railway-Inspectorate/dp/0992739810
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853
    Is there an ofsted equivalent for GPs? Or a secret shopper style test?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752

    Is there an ofsted equivalent for GPs? Or a secret shopper style test?

    There's a patient review system but it suffers from the same thing as every other review system, life's complainers and nitpickers complain the loudest.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712

    Great, judicious and fair, piece.

    Part of the problem is that people ask for enquiries sometimes out of genuine concern to find out what went wrong and avoid a repeat, but also sometimes just to make a political point - "we were right" or "they were wrong". The more technical the disaster (missed train signals, oilwell disaster) the better the chance of the former, since few people really wanted to pin blame on a single individual. I'm afraid the demands for a Covid enquiry fall more into the latter category - "We can't believe that Johnson can get away with thounsands of unnecessary deaths" vs "We need to show that our brilliant vaccination programme saved the nation". The Hutton Iraq enquiry fell into that category too. That sort of enquiry just doesn't work - people who approve of the conclusions claim to have been vindicated, people who don't say it's a whitewash or a stitch-up (everyone liked Hutton until he disagreed with them).

    Very fair minded. It's a shame because there will be lots of lessons to be learned, and some of them actually will be learned, but it will be drowned out by performative outrage or partisan denials.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 779



    few people really wanted to pin blame on a single individual.

    Unless they're Liverpudlian.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,676
    DavidL said:

    On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.

    I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.

    Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.

    I missed the further discussion about Boeing. I’d argue that if the person signing off the safety certificate was thinking about money, something has gone wrong institutionally. Now, I have no problem with a prosecution if that individual, but culture starts from the top. You want your people doing safety roles like that to not have any worries about costs and such like.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,164
    DavidL said:

    On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.

    I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.

    Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.

    To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.

    ""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196

    He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.

    I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,777
    One thought I have is that we should have an independent public enquiries service and perhaps a general accidents investigation board, both able to initiate and sustain several enquiries / investigations simultaneously.

    Btw, Lakanal and the other tower block fires are not the only antecedents to Grenfell on British soil in living memory. Though the series of failures highlighted were less applicable to other buildings, the total breakdown of communication between builders, architects, planners and materials suppliers leading to catastrophic breakdown in the safety regime were central factors in the Summerlands fire that killed 50 in 1973.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 779
    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894
    edited October 16
    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,164
    Thanks for a great post.

    As an aside, sometimes disasters can have rather odd but beneficial consequences. The terrible Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash in 1952 killed 112 people, and occurred near RAF Northolt. A US medical unit rushed out to the scene of the crash, including a black US nurse - Abbie Sweetwine. She managed a triage process, marking patients with her lipstick.

    It was the moment that the idea of triage entered the UK medical consciousness.

    https://collegeofparamedics.co.uk/COP/News/the_angel_of_platform_6_abbie_sweetwine.aspx

    I've also seen it claimed that the Titanic disaster has saved far more lives than it claimed, as the publicity around it forced dramatic changes to maritime safety - and not just in the numbers of lifeboats carried. Without the Titanic disaster, it might have taken many more years for these changes to come in - and perhaps after WWI.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,023
    On topic, what to do after a disaster depends on what you want. The alternative to a full, public inquiry is the departmental lessons learned exercise. If you're looking for practical recommendations, the latter is the way to go. It is nearly always quicker and cheaper, the people who conduct it generally aren't starting from scratch and it is less likly to become politicised. So I think where what is needed is practial improvements rather than blaming someone it is generally the best way forward. The main point is to make sure that the person who conducts it can't be tainted with the original cock-up (which of course means you need to take an early view on what went, or could have, gone wrong). Otherwise he will always be anxious to exonerate himself, and so there will always be suspicions of a whitewash.

    But when the public, or parts of it, is desperate for someone to blame, as over Hillsborough or Iraq or Chinese flu, there will always be more catharsis from an inquiry that tells them what they want to hear. They probably won't even read the highly technical recommendations, just the summary is in the press that says "X cocked up". In fact, as the truth is rarely that simple, the public is very rarely satisfied. But that doesn't stop people asking for them, and politicians feeling they have to grant them.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638
    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    It’s piss poor “reporting”. The decline of the Guardian, once my paper of choice, has been very dispiriting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192

    DavidL said:

    On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.

    I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.

    Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.

    To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.

    ""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196

    He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.

    I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
    I do not know enough to make a final judgment but, and this is where my ambivalence is, I do believe in personal responsibility for your actions. If he signed off on something knowing that there was an issue which might be expensive to fix and which he therefore did not mention that was very wrong, whatever mitigating factors there are. Good systems might have made it impossible for him to do that of course.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638
    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,602
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.

    I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.

    Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.

    To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.

    ""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196

    He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.

    I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
    I do not know enough to make a final judgment but, and this is where my ambivalence is, I do believe in personal responsibility for your actions. If he signed off on something knowing that there was an issue which might be expensive to fix and which he therefore did not mention that was very wrong, whatever mitigating factors there are. Good systems might have made it impossible for him to do that of course.
    Appositely, T S Eliot

    They constantly try to escape
    From the darkness outside and within
    By dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    Thanks for a great post.

    As an aside, sometimes disasters can have rather odd but beneficial consequences. The terrible Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash in 1952 killed 112 people, and occurred near RAF Northolt. A US medical unit rushed out to the scene of the crash, including a black US nurse - Abbie Sweetwine. She managed a triage process, marking patients with her lipstick.

    It was the moment that the idea of triage entered the UK medical consciousness.

    https://collegeofparamedics.co.uk/COP/News/the_angel_of_platform_6_abbie_sweetwine.aspx

    I've also seen it claimed that the Titanic disaster has saved far more lives than it claimed, as the publicity around it forced dramatic changes to maritime safety - and not just in the numbers of lifeboats carried. Without the Titanic disaster, it might have taken many more years for these changes to come in - and perhaps after WWI.

    The other thing that Titanic did was to underline the importance of radio. It's perhaps difficult for us to understand that before about 1910, once a ship sailed out into the Atlantic (or any other ocean) there would almost certainly be no news of it and it's crew and passengers until it reached it's destination, messages could be put on another ship coming the other way, and that ship arrived at it's destination.

    Carrier pigeons were rare.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,164
    edited October 16
    tlg86 said:

    Very interesting header, thank you @Quincel

    Anyone interested in railway safety history, I’d recommend this:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-Majestys-Railway-Inspectorate/dp/0992739810

    HMRI used to be headed by the late Major Poyntz, who used to write reports saying things like; "I have several major poyntz to make..."

    Like many ex-military people, a very nice gentleman.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Isn't the mantra of air crash investigation "causes not blame" - which is how you tackle the systemic issues that lead to the "accidents" in the first place. The trouble with investigations that go looking for "blame" is you've likely already lost half your audience before you've published a word.

    The problem of the airline model applied in other areas is that some of the options are not there. If a hurricane approaches, planes are grounded or evacuated, if the co-pilot doesn't turn up the plane is grounded. The maternity unit cannot close, the ED department neither. There can be mitigations, but the show must go on.

    To an extent a bit of risk makes life interesting. I used to love ski-ing, horse riding and motorcycles for example. It is part of the interest of my job too, the machismo of taking on cases that no one else wants to do.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,602

    Thanks for a great post.

    As an aside, sometimes disasters can have rather odd but beneficial consequences. The terrible Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash in 1952 killed 112 people, and occurred near RAF Northolt. A US medical unit rushed out to the scene of the crash, including a black US nurse - Abbie Sweetwine. She managed a triage process, marking patients with her lipstick.

    It was the moment that the idea of triage entered the UK medical consciousness.

    https://collegeofparamedics.co.uk/COP/News/the_angel_of_platform_6_abbie_sweetwine.aspx

    I've also seen it claimed that the Titanic disaster has saved far more lives than it claimed, as the publicity around it forced dramatic changes to maritime safety - and not just in the numbers of lifeboats carried. Without the Titanic disaster, it might have taken many more years for these changes to come in - and perhaps after WWI.

    The other thing that Titanic did was to underline the importance of radio. It's perhaps difficult for us to understand that before about 1910, once a ship sailed out into the Atlantic (or any other ocean) there would almost certainly be no news of it and it's crew and passengers until it reached it's destination, messages could be put on another ship coming the other way, and that ship arrived at it's destination.

    Carrier pigeons were rare.
    Marconi himself gave evidence at the public enquiry
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894
    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437

    Just realised I was posting on an old thread so in response to @Philip_Thompson post on that thread and regarding whether parties should stand in by elections caused by assassinations:

    After the 3 assassinations by the IRA/INLA all parties fought the following by elections, although in fact only 2 took place because one was too close to a General Election. I was surprised at the time by the public's reaction at the Eastbourne by election. I thought they would swing behind the Conservative candidate in an act of defiance against the IRA. There was also a swing against the Conservatives when Michael Portillo won in his by election. The public are more hard nosed than I would have thought.

    I agree with Philip, there are arguments both ways as whether parties should stand or not. It is important to give the message that we will not be beaten by terrorism, but which gives that message best.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    edited October 16
    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    Maybe you need to talk about with a trusted, educated, friend, or equivalent, first. That was one advantage of a society with trusted priests.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,602

    tlg86 said:

    Very interesting header, thank you @Quincel

    Anyone interested in railway safety history, I’d recommend this:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-Majestys-Railway-Inspectorate/dp/0992739810

    HMRI used to be headed by the late Major Poyntz, who used to write reports saying things like; "I have several major poyntz to make..."

    Like many ex-military people, a very nice gentleman.
    If he had risen further in the hierarchy he could have made some more general poyntz. Or if he had chosen an ecclesiastical career and ended up as a cardinal...
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    IshmaelZ said:

    Thanks for a great post.

    As an aside, sometimes disasters can have rather odd but beneficial consequences. The terrible Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash in 1952 killed 112 people, and occurred near RAF Northolt. A US medical unit rushed out to the scene of the crash, including a black US nurse - Abbie Sweetwine. She managed a triage process, marking patients with her lipstick.

    It was the moment that the idea of triage entered the UK medical consciousness.

    https://collegeofparamedics.co.uk/COP/News/the_angel_of_platform_6_abbie_sweetwine.aspx

    I've also seen it claimed that the Titanic disaster has saved far more lives than it claimed, as the publicity around it forced dramatic changes to maritime safety - and not just in the numbers of lifeboats carried. Without the Titanic disaster, it might have taken many more years for these changes to come in - and perhaps after WWI.

    The other thing that Titanic did was to underline the importance of radio. It's perhaps difficult for us to understand that before about 1910, once a ship sailed out into the Atlantic (or any other ocean) there would almost certainly be no news of it and it's crew and passengers until it reached it's destination, messages could be put on another ship coming the other way, and that ship arrived at it's destination.

    Carrier pigeons were rare.
    Marconi himself gave evidence at the public enquiry
    Wasn't it a double part of the tragedy of the Titanic that the only nearby ship's lone radio operator was asleep when the Titanic sent out its SOS calls, but also that the Titanic had brushed off his earlier attempts to warn of icebergs?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    You think, probably rightly, whatever. Have you sought 'psychological' help yourself. Carrying these things alone is an awful burden, and it seems to me that that is what both of you, separately, are doing.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940
    edited October 16

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Much more likely to be this:

    Nolan Investigates Stonewall
    Available now on @BBCSounds


    https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/status/1448585564589002752?s=2

    I see the "line to take" includes emphasising Stonewall is a "charity". If that makes it above reproach then both Eton and LGBA are also beyond criticism. Good to know

    https://twitter.com/FionaKabuki/status/1449289314140098562?s=20
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894
    edited October 16
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    Ah, yes, that is more fraught. Maybe both of you should visit a doctor, together, and get expert opinion. Risks, chances, etc?

    Good luck
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,586
    edited October 16
    Worst rail disaster in the UK was Quintinshill, just north of Gretna, in 1915. Resulted in 226 deaths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintinshill_rail_disaster
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,319
    edited October 16
    Fishing said:

    On topic, what to do after a disaster depends on what you want. The alternative to a full, public inquiry is the departmental lessons learned exercise. If you're looking for practical recommendations, the latter is the way to go. It is nearly always quicker and cheaper, the people who conduct it generally aren't starting from scratch and it is less likly to become politicised. So I think where what is needed is practial improvements rather than blaming someone it is generally the best way forward. The main point is to make sure that the person who conducts it can't be tainted with the original cock-up (which of course means you need to take an early view on what went, or could have, gone wrong). Otherwise he will always be anxious to exonerate himself, and so there will always be suspicions of a whitewash.

    But when the public, or parts of it, is desperate for someone to blame, as over Hillsborough or Iraq or Chinese flu, there will always be more catharsis from an inquiry that tells them what they want to hear. They probably won't even read the highly technical recommendations, just the summary is in the press that says "X cocked up". In fact, as the truth is rarely that simple, the public is very rarely satisfied. But that doesn't stop people asking for them, and politicians feeling they have to grant them.

    Some good points there. Don't really disagree as such but -

    After a disaster costing lives it's not simply that the public are desperate for someone to blame. This implies there never is anyone to blame - but sometimes there is. There are people whose incompetence or complacency or recklessness caused what happened to happen and where this is the case it shouldn't be hidden behind a "bad system" and "lessons learnt" smokescreen.

    Also, consider not the public but the victims. It's only natural they wish to see justice and what they mean by "justice" is not lessons learnt but the culprits brought to account and punished. They want to see the people responsible pay a price. This urge has to be tempered by the greater objectivity of those not directly impacted, and it mustn't override the facts, but it should always be in the mix. It's been the driving force in the uncovering of many scandals over the years.

    Thanks to @Quincel for interesting header btw.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,180
    Don’t know much about Felipe apart from his dad’s a dick and there’s an absolutely terrible portrait of him in Valencia military museum, but he’s now got some brownie points from me.

    https://twitter.com/maj_retd_fox/status/1448953316378091520?s=21

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    Be slightly careful. iirc from decades back, a baby immediately after a miscarriage was at heightened risk of child abuse (so back when that term meant battered babies, not kiddy-fiddling) as if mum treated the baby as if it were the age the miscarried child would have been. Though that would not apply in this case, if it has been a year already. But miscarriages are sufficiently common there must surely be organised, professional counselling available? That might be a better bet than listening to idiots like me on the interwebs.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,481
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





    My impression from friends, family, extended social networks etc is that apart from some mask wearing people are now carrying on as if nothing is happening. All sorts of trips, visits, weekends away etc etc that have been on hold are being crammed in. Whether this is a sub-conscious 'we better do it all now as lockdown will happen in winter' I don't know.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940
    Another "line to take":

    Question: How much more did the BBC spend producing a 10 part series investigating @stonewalluk than it pays to Stonewall as a Diversity Champion? Reminder that Stephen Nolan receives over £400k annually from the BBC according to latest figures. Free FOI idea there (mine in).

    https://twitter.com/benjamincohen/status/1449315474454548481?s=20
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    AIUI 'chest feeding' has only been a thing since we Brexited. Just saying.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





    My impression from friends, family, extended social networks etc is that apart from some mask wearing people are now carrying on as if nothing is happening. All sorts of trips, visits, weekends away etc etc that have been on hold are being crammed in. Whether this is a sub-conscious 'we better do it all now as lockdown will happen in winter' I don't know.
    Hmmm. We decided that all was well and we'd live reasonably normally and here we are back in our own personal lockdown!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,180
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    ‘Yer can’t even menshun breastfeedin’ without bein’ arrested nowadays’
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,273

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





    My impression from friends, family, extended social networks etc is that apart from some mask wearing people are now carrying on as if nothing is happening. All sorts of trips, visits, weekends away etc etc that have been on hold are being crammed in. Whether this is a sub-conscious 'we better do it all now as lockdown will happen in winter' I don't know.
    I think it just shows that people are happy to rely on the vaccines. Reducing the risk to a level that we accept from other viral infections without the need to modify our behaviour. That's certainly where I'm at.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





    My impression from friends, family, extended social networks etc is that apart from some mask wearing people are now carrying on as if nothing is happening. All sorts of trips, visits, weekends away etc etc that have been on hold are being crammed in. Whether this is a sub-conscious 'we better do it all now as lockdown will happen in winter' I don't know.
    My feeling is that, for a few people, there is that feeling of “let’s do it all now just in case”. But for most it is: “enough, let’s party, this is over, and even if it isn’t I don’t care”.

    Especially in the young. They are never going to lock down again. And I don’t blame them
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 779

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    It's a Holyrood article. Apologies for raising the same topic.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    kjh said:


    Just realised I was posting on an old thread so in response to @Philip_Thompson post on that thread and regarding whether parties should stand in by elections caused by assassinations:

    After the 3 assassinations by the IRA/INLA all parties fought the following by elections, although in fact only 2 took place because one was too close to a General Election. I was surprised at the time by the public's reaction at the Eastbourne by election. I thought they would swing behind the Conservative candidate in an act of defiance against the IRA. There was also a swing against the Conservatives when Michael Portillo won in his by election. The public are more hard nosed than I would have thought.

    I agree with Philip, there are arguments both ways as whether parties should stand or not. It is important to give the message that we will not be beaten by terrorism, but which gives that message best.

    You expected a sympathy vote. Might the opposite swing have been not callousness, but from disapproval at the government's failure to prevent the murders? We saw, I think, the same in the 2017 general election. Most commentators blame the dementia tax proposals but as I've banged on about before, probably more significant were the two terrorist outrages that occurred during the campaign, at London Bridge and the Ariana Grande concert. If the government can't keep the public safe, or even MPs safe, what use is it?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 927
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.

    I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.

    Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.

    To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.

    ""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196

    He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.

    I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
    I do not know enough to make a final judgment but, and this is where my ambivalence is, I do believe in personal responsibility for your actions. If he signed off on something knowing that there was an issue which might be expensive to fix and which he therefore did not mention that was very wrong, whatever mitigating factors there are. Good systems might have made it impossible for him to do that of course.
    I have been in the position of being a very senior decision maker solely accountable for my decisions, at a relatively young age. And this was on what many people on here would consider to be a pretty pathetic wage. In the end, I walked away from it (although obviously you cannot entirely walk away from things that you decided in the past). One of my quiet frustrations on reading posts like the above is that lawyers don't typically actually make decisions under extreme pressure in quite the same way that public servants like the police and social workers have to on a day to day level. This is not to downplay the importance of lawyers but there are limitations on their perspective.

    From what I have seen over the past decade or so the assumed institutional protection that did exist for people in a similar position to me, of which there are many, is withering away. The likely consequence is that the quality of people in these difficult front line decision making roles will decline significantly, with more disasters and consequential public inquiries.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,446
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
    Max, what a heartbreaking post. This has genuinely brought tears to my eyes. I don't know if I have any practical advice, except to say that - as I'm sure you know - miscarriages are very, very common - only because people don't really talk much about them no one realises how common they are until it happens to them. And then all sorts of people come out of the woodwork to say, yes, they had one too. It is normally - as I'm sure you know - nobody's fault; simply that not all egg/sperms combinations can grow viable into a healthy foetus. (I'm sure medics could put this better.)
    We had a traumatic (is there any other kind?) miscarriage, followed by a pregnancy where we lost one of twins in the very early stages. However, the other baby grew fine (though of course we were on tenterhooks all the way through) and is now my lovely and perfectly healthy oldest daughter, and she was followed by babies 2 and 3.
    I am sure you just had an unlucky roll of the dice. There's no reason to think the dice are stacked against you.
    Best of luck, however you approach this.
    Well said. All the best @MaxPB
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
    Thanks for the advice, you're right that we need expert help but I just don't know how to approach the subject.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Mate, as AP would say, that was just a noise.

    Chestfeeding is a thing already.

    https://news.sky.com/story/hospital-trust-becomes-first-in-uk-to-adopt-gender-inclusive-language-for-perinatal-services-12214018
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,164

    Worst rail disaster in the UK was Quintinshill, just north of Gretna, in 1915. Resulted in 226 deaths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintinshill_rail_disaster

    AFAIK one of the saddest aspects of Quintishill is that we don't actually know how many people died, as the regiments' rolls were destroyed in the fire.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,593
    edited October 16
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





    I was in Lisbon the week before last week, and was surprised to find that mask wearing indoors and on public transport was pretty much 100% all the time. Where are and the custodians of fundamental liberty I asked myself? Nowhere to be seen.

    When at 4am on Sunday morning we got a taxi to the airport, there were thousands of young people out on the street - it felt like Soho does around midnight. Literally rocking, so mask compliance does not appear to have affected the city's nightlife. One thing, though, case rates in Portugal are under 1,000 a day, whereas they are c.40,000 a day in the UK.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





    My impression from friends, family, extended social networks etc is that apart from some mask wearing people are now carrying on as if nothing is happening. All sorts of trips, visits, weekends away etc etc that have been on hold are being crammed in. Whether this is a sub-conscious 'we better do it all now as lockdown will happen in winter' I don't know.
    I think it just shows that people are happy to rely on the vaccines. Reducing the risk to a level that we accept from other viral infections without the need to modify our behaviour. That's certainly where I'm at.
    And me, and that is realistic. I’ve had covid. I’m convinced I’d have had it worse without the vaccines.

    We need to live our lives and get on with things.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,454
    edited October 16

    Worst rail disaster in the UK was Quintinshill, just north of Gretna, in 1915. Resulted in 226 deaths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintinshill_rail_disaster

    It is believed - IIRC the roll of the unit concerned also perished and they were never quite sure how many. So could have been worse (or better).

    Edit: JJ got into the block ahead of me!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    That's different. I've not read the Times but it does occur that talking about mothers and fathers can be ambiguous depending on context, now that there are so many "non-traditional" family structures in place. In terms of maternity wards, it is obvious who the mother is, so it is bloody silly to replace the word. In terms of later benefits or schools admin or maternity leave, is mother the birth-giver or the woman who sleeps with dad and butters the toast in the morning? And where there is no female adult in the family?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 12,894
    Mask wearing on the Tube is about 30% now. Sometimes entirely absent. London is full of continental Europeans for Frieze. I wonder if this is freaking them out
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Mate, as AP would say, that was just a noise.

    Chestfeeding is a thing already.

    https://news.sky.com/story/hospital-trust-becomes-first-in-uk-to-adopt-gender-inclusive-language-for-perinatal-services-12214018
    It isn't mate. You can get off the outrage bus at the next stop.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,586
    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding is the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Men have breasts too, you know!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding is the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Men have breasts too, you know!
    Exactly
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,454
    edited October 16
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Mate, as AP would say, that was just a noise.

    Chestfeeding is a thing already.

    https://news.sky.com/story/hospital-trust-becomes-first-in-uk-to-adopt-gender-inclusive-language-for-perinatal-services-12214018
    It's silly anyway because men, all right H. sapiens individuals with XY non-autosomal chromosomes, have breasts (and can, aberrantly or under hormones) produce milk, as well as being at some risk of breast cancers (though much less than women simply because they have much less tissue of the relevant kind, and presumably also fewer relevant hormones).
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,853
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    There are support groups for women who have miscarried. It might be worth looking these out. Not just for her but also for guidance about how to support men and how to talk to each other about something that affects you both. Bear in mind that she might not want to talk to you about it and that this is not rejection - it may be she doesn't want to burden you or it may feel too private, too female to share with a man. Even in the closest of marriages, there is always a space we reserve just for ourselves.

    But she should talk to her doctor to see if there are any underlying reasons for this rather than have her and you worry about what might happen again. And if there aren't then you should take heart that you can conceive and that with luck and good care next time all will go well.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    JBriskin3 said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    It's a Holyrood article. Apologies for raising the same topic.
    No, I was wondering if the Times picked it up from pb rather than elsewhere.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638
    Carnyx said:

    Worst rail disaster in the UK was Quintinshill, just north of Gretna, in 1915. Resulted in 226 deaths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintinshill_rail_disaster

    It is believed - IIRC the roll of the unit concerned also perished and they were never quite sure how many. So could have been worse (or better).

    Edit: JJ got into the block ahead of me!
    One of the few cases where there were both Scots and English enquiries as many of the injured were taken to hospital south of the border where they subsequently died, resulting in coroners in England and their Scottish counterparts both opining on the causes of the tragedy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
    Max, what a heartbreaking post. This has genuinely brought tears to my eyes. I don't know if I have any practical advice, except to say that - as I'm sure you know - miscarriages are very, very common - only because people don't really talk much about them no one realises how common they are until it happens to them. And then all sorts of people come out of the woodwork to say, yes, they had one too. It is normally - as I'm sure you know - nobody's fault; simply that not all egg/sperms combinations can grow viable into a healthy foetus. (I'm sure medics could put this better.)
    We had a traumatic (is there any other kind?) miscarriage, followed by a pregnancy where we lost one of twins in the very early stages. However, the other baby grew fine (though of course we were on tenterhooks all the way through) and is now my lovely and perfectly healthy oldest daughter, and she was followed by babies 2 and 3.
    I am sure you just had an unlucky roll of the dice. There's no reason to think the dice are stacked against you.
    Best of luck, however you approach this.
    Thank you for sharing, in an odd way it's good to know we're not alone.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437
    edited October 16

    kjh said:


    Just realised I was posting on an old thread so in response to @Philip_Thompson post on that thread and regarding whether parties should stand in by elections caused by assassinations:

    After the 3 assassinations by the IRA/INLA all parties fought the following by elections, although in fact only 2 took place because one was too close to a General Election. I was surprised at the time by the public's reaction at the Eastbourne by election. I thought they would swing behind the Conservative candidate in an act of defiance against the IRA. There was also a swing against the Conservatives when Michael Portillo won in his by election. The public are more hard nosed than I would have thought.

    I agree with Philip, there are arguments both ways as whether parties should stand or not. It is important to give the message that we will not be beaten by terrorism, but which gives that message best.

    You expected a sympathy vote. Might the opposite swing have been not callousness, but from disapproval at the government's failure to prevent the murders? We saw, I think, the same in the 2017 general election. Most commentators blame the dementia tax proposals but as I've banged on about before, probably more significant were the two terrorist outrages that occurred during the campaign, at London Bridge and the Ariana Grande concert. If the government can't keep the public safe, or even MPs safe, what use is it?
    Having lived through these times I don't think there was any anger from the public with how the Govt were dealing with terrorism. I could be wrong as it was a long time ago so my memory might be wrong. I remember all the anger was at the IRA.

    On the specific murders in the case of Airey Neave and Brighton Bombing I don't think any blame can be laid at the Govt, possibly the security services. Obviously things have moved on since then and what was the norm then would be considered irresponsible now, but one can't compare now to then.

    Ian Gow had blatantly ignored official advice about his security and he was considered a target. I don't know whether he was being irresponsible or it was a case of he wasn't going to let the bastards get the better of him. I suspect the latter.

    Interesting observation by you though and I will bear it in mind. The biggest impact in the Eastbourne by election was the LD by election machine.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,454
    DougSeal said:

    Carnyx said:

    Worst rail disaster in the UK was Quintinshill, just north of Gretna, in 1915. Resulted in 226 deaths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintinshill_rail_disaster

    It is believed - IIRC the roll of the unit concerned also perished and they were never quite sure how many. So could have been worse (or better).

    Edit: JJ got into the block ahead of me!
    One of the few cases where there were both Scots and English enquiries as many of the injured were taken to hospital south of the border where they subsequently died, resulting in coroners in England and their Scottish counterparts both opining on the causes of the tragedy.
    That's a nice historical quirk. I can't remember - did they opine differently?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 927
    With regard to miscarriages - I can only imagine how awful it is, as fortunately it is something we never had to go through. I did read about it whilst my wife was pregnant though and it sounds horrible, to the point where it is difficult even to contemplate.

    But it is so very common. I've been just thinking about it, and the majority of couples I know seem to have gone through at least one. It is something that is mentioned, but not talked about in detail. But on the more hopeful side, all of them went on to have a further successful pregnancy.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    Oh my Max, I am so sorry for you both. I experienced this earlier in the year and it's the absolute worst. We're trying and it's my most sincere hope that it won't happen again.
    Sending my love to your wife.
    I wonder whether Max has taken the first step; he's opened out, albeit anonymously, to a supportive community. A community where others have walked down that sad and lonely road.

    I hope he has, and wish him and his wife well.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,446
    ...
    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
    Max, what a heartbreaking post. This has genuinely brought tears to my eyes. I don't know if I have any practical advice, except to say that - as I'm sure you know - miscarriages are very, very common - only because people don't really talk much about them no one realises how common they are until it happens to them. And then all sorts of people come out of the woodwork to say, yes, they had one too. It is normally - as I'm sure you know - nobody's fault; simply that not all egg/sperms combinations can grow viable into a healthy foetus. (I'm sure medics could put this better.)
    We had a traumatic (is there any other kind?) miscarriage, followed by a pregnancy where we lost one of twins in the very early stages. However, the other baby grew fine (though of course we were on tenterhooks all the way through) and is now my lovely and perfectly healthy oldest daughter, and she was followed by babies 2 and 3.
    I am sure you just had an unlucky roll of the dice. There's no reason to think the dice are stacked against you.
    Best of luck, however you approach this.
    Thank you for sharing, in an odd way it's good to know we're not alone.
    We went away with our friends last summer for the weekend, just after my girlfriend had a miscarriage, and my mates partners, both of whom are mothers, let on that they had had at least one each as well. So they are a lot more common than most people, or probably more accurately most men, think
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,454
    edited October 16

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding is the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Men have breasts too, you know!
    Exactly
    Further on that,

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-males-can-lactate/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    edited October 16
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
    Thanks for the advice, you're right that we need expert help but I just don't know how to approach the subject.
    It is a tricky one, and infertility or miscarriage is always a sensitive issue. In the end though that conversation needs to start.

    One thing that I found difficult* was that men tend to bury their own feelings on these things and approach in a problem solving manner. While this has some merit, it is often received as being unfeeling. Women often feel shortchanged of understanding and emotional support by such an approach, however well intended. Men are just as emotional as women, but have been socialised into expressing it differently.

    A bit of counselling may be as important as the physical side of gynaecology. Best of luck, having children changes lives, and often in unexpected ways. They have their own personalities from the start.

    *without going into detail, the seven year age gap between my boys was unintentional and an emotional roller coaster.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    That's different. I've not read the Times but it does occur that talking about mothers and fathers can be ambiguous depending on context, now that there are so many "non-traditional" family structures in place. In terms of maternity wards, it is obvious who the mother is, so it is bloody silly to replace the word. In terms of later benefits or schools admin or maternity leave, is mother the birth-giver or the woman who sleeps with dad and butters the toast in the morning? And where there is no female adult in the family?
    The word "parent" will do in those situations. But there is absolutely no reason to remove or replace the word "mother" for the vast majority of situations when it is perfectly obvious that there is a mother and who it is. And I really don't see what business it is of a charity which claims to speak for some of a minority group to tell public bodies how to call women. How about asking women? Or, you know, mothers. There are lots of us about.
    I also think the word "parent" is fine. No need to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding is the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Men have breasts too, you know!
    Exactly
    A former co worker of mine, male, was a breast cancer survivor.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,273
    Leon said:

    Mask wearing on the Tube is about 30% now. Sometimes entirely absent. London is full of continental Europeans for Frieze. I wonder if this is freaking them out

    I'm going to be in London in a few days time, so it will be interesting to compare and contrast behaviour with how things are up here in the north.

    First time in The Smoke since March 2020. Staying in a different Travelodge this time, however.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Mate, as AP would say, that was just a noise.

    Chestfeeding is a thing already.

    https://news.sky.com/story/hospital-trust-becomes-first-in-uk-to-adopt-gender-inclusive-language-for-perinatal-services-12214018
    It isn't mate. You can get off the outrage bus at the next stop.
    Outrage bus 😂😂😂😂 call 2010 they want their ‘lame flame’ back.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,523

    Thanks for a great post.

    As an aside, sometimes disasters can have rather odd but beneficial consequences. The terrible Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash in 1952 killed 112 people, and occurred near RAF Northolt. A US medical unit rushed out to the scene of the crash, including a black US nurse - Abbie Sweetwine. She managed a triage process, marking patients with her lipstick.

    It was the moment that the idea of triage entered the UK medical consciousness.

    https://collegeofparamedics.co.uk/COP/News/the_angel_of_platform_6_abbie_sweetwine.aspx

    I've also seen it claimed that the Titanic disaster has saved far more lives than it claimed, as the publicity around it forced dramatic changes to maritime safety - and not just in the numbers of lifeboats carried. Without the Titanic disaster, it might have taken many more years for these changes to come in - and perhaps after WWI.

    You'd never get away with creating a fictional character called Abbie Sweetwine!

    On a similar point to the Titanic, it was thought that the disaster of Operation Tiger in advance of the D-Day landings that killed well over 1,000 soldiers in a friendly fire incident helped to secure the success of D-Day, because of lessons learned (especially over ships operating at different times).
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 779

    JBriskin3 said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    It's a Holyrood article. Apologies for raising the same topic.
    No, I was wondering if the Times picked it up from pb rather than elsewhere.
    Nope - It was published at-

    Friday October 15 2021, 12.01am

    I think that makes that around about Thursday midnight.

    One thing I do think that MSM picked up from PB was Amess in 92 that was playing much of the morning on #skynews
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Mate, as AP would say, that was just a noise.

    Chestfeeding is a thing already.

    https://news.sky.com/story/hospital-trust-becomes-first-in-uk-to-adopt-gender-inclusive-language-for-perinatal-services-12214018
    It isn't mate. You can get off the outrage bus at the next stop.
    Outrage bus 😂😂😂😂 call 2010 they want their ‘lame flame’ back.
    I mean, you're the one on the bus itself
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,523
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding is the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Men have breasts too, you know!
    Exactly
    A former co worker of mine, male, was a breast cancer survivor.
    A very good friend of mine was a male survivor of breast cancer.

    Bizarrely, he phoned up his sister to tell her - only to discover she'd had the very same diagnosis the same day. Thankfully she also survived.

  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 779

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    ‘Yer can’t even menshun breastfeedin’ without bein’ arrested nowadays’
    Yes the sexuality debate is all shits and giggles if you're an SNP Type
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,586
    edited October 16
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    Oh my Max, I am so sorry for you both. I experienced this earlier in the year and it's the absolute worst. We're trying and it's my most sincere hope that it won't happen again.
    Sending my love to your wife.
    Commiserations to both @Pulpstar and @MaxPB .

    On a more positive note, my sister-in-law (my brother's wife) miscarried in Jan 2019, just days after informing us and her folks that she was expecting. But within six months, she was pregnant again, and gave birth in Feb 2020. My little nephew is doing well, they dressed him up as Superman for the nursery's "Superhero Day" only yesterday!
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,752
    Leon said:

    Mask wearing on the Tube is about 30% now. Sometimes entirely absent. London is full of continental Europeans for Frieze. I wonder if this is freaking them out

    From speaking to my colleagues who are from the continent it started out (in July after final unlockdown) that they were bitching about us Brits not wearing masks and how irresponsible we were compared to them and the rules they have back home.

    Slowly they've become used to not wearing masks, socialising freely and everything being open as normal and then in September and October they went back to their home countries to visit family and when they got back they invariably bitched about the stupid rules in their home countries and accepted that we've got it right here to live unrestricted and let the vaccines do the work of keeping COVID under control.

    The Italian contingent were the real converts, the most scathing about our lack of masks and then the most scathing about Italy's complicated rules around COVID after they'd come back. Almost all of them said they were relieved to be back in a society that has put it behind them.
  • JBriskin3JBriskin3 Posts: 779
    Roddy Dunlop QC
    @RoddyQC
    ·
    4h
    Is it April the first? Surely it must be? As otherwise tales that we cannot speak of “mothers” in scotland any more would be true.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459

    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    Chestfeeding I'd the new Winterval or bendy bananas.
    Mate, as AP would say, that was just a noise.

    Chestfeeding is a thing already.

    https://news.sky.com/story/hospital-trust-becomes-first-in-uk-to-adopt-gender-inclusive-language-for-perinatal-services-12214018
    It isn't mate. You can get off the outrage bus at the next stop.
    Outrage bus 😂😂😂😂 call 2010 they want their ‘lame flame’ back.
    I mean, you're the one on the bus itself
    No, I expressed no opinion on it either way. Just linked an article to it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,746
    edited October 16
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?

    I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?

    Of course that might not be the situation
    I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
    Oh my Max, I am so sorry for you both. I experienced this earlier in the year and it's the absolute worst. We're trying and it's my most sincere hope that it won't happen again.
    Sending my love to your wife.
    Sorry to hear that Max.

    There may be support for you known to those whose primary role is to support your partner.

    There are similar examples around of how it sometimes works *organisationally* - eg Al-Anon for families of people impacted by Alcoholism. Perhaps have a word with support services available for her, and see if they can signpost you to anywhere which can help you find out how to approach it.

    HTH.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,481
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Talking of disasters, or non-disasters, the Guardian is annoyed that the British are now shrugging at Covid; it kinda wants us to be terrified again, just because

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-britons-are-tolerating-sky-high-covid-rates-and-why-this-may-not-last


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/15/why-are-britons-so-much-more-relaxed-about-covid-than-europeans


    It found four Brits in Europe..... who all LOVE masks and vaxports, and not one dissenter. Hmm

    Oh look, Stephen Reicher and Kit Yates. In the Guardian. What an enormous surprise.
    To be fair one of the articles does - briefly - cite a particularly insane SAGE prediction of "7,000 hospitalisations a day by October" from SAGE

    It doesn't really explore the ramifications of this: that we've been told to expect the apocalypse, several times, and yet we haven't seen it, and now we are bored, and we yawn and shrug and go to the pub

    Whether this is wise or not I dunno. I haver between thinking the Guardian has a point, we should be more frit, and then I go into the centre of London and it is rocking and no one is masking and life is basically normal and I think: great. We have accepted a new level of risk. We just got there first





    My impression from friends, family, extended social networks etc is that apart from some mask wearing people are now carrying on as if nothing is happening. All sorts of trips, visits, weekends away etc etc that have been on hold are being crammed in. Whether this is a sub-conscious 'we better do it all now as lockdown will happen in winter' I don't know.
    My feeling is that, for a few people, there is that feeling of “let’s do it all now just in case”. But for most it is: “enough, let’s party, this is over, and even if it isn’t I don’t care”.

    Especially in the young. They are never going to lock down again. And I don’t blame them
    I'm not going lockdown either, unless there is a variant that avoids the vaccine. I'm done.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    Cyclefree said:

    Taz said:

    JBriskin3 said:

    Off topic - It's behind a paywall (which I don't have access to) - But it's all in the headline.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-activists-get-word-mother-axed-from-government-policies-q6q6bxtf6

    Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
    Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
    That's different. I've not read the Times but it does occur that talking about mothers and fathers can be ambiguous depending on context, now that there are so many "non-traditional" family structures in place. In terms of maternity wards, it is obvious who the mother is, so it is bloody silly to replace the word. In terms of later benefits or schools admin or maternity leave, is mother the birth-giver or the woman who sleeps with dad and butters the toast in the morning? And where there is no female adult in the family?
    The word "parent" will do in those situations. But there is absolutely no reason to remove or replace the word "mother" for the vast majority of situations when it is perfectly obvious that there is a mother and who it is. And I really don't see what business it is of a charity which claims to speak for some of a minority group to tell public bodies how to call women. How about asking women? Or, you know, mothers. There are lots of us about.
    Sorry but I can't get too worked up over this but, as I said, I've not seen the Times. Maybe the charity was involved because it was consulted, or maybe it did stick its oar in uninvited, I don't know. But as you suggest, sometimes it might be appropriate to replace the word "mother" with "parent" in certain contexts. Chestfeeding is silly. Revising old forms to remove assumptions that are no longer valid does seem a worthwhile exercise.
This discussion has been closed.