We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?
Of course that might not be the situation
I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
Max, what a heartbreaking post. This has genuinely brought tears to my eyes. I don't know if I have any practical advice, except to say that - as I'm sure you know - miscarriages are very, very common - only because people don't really talk much about them no one realises how common they are until it happens to them. And then all sorts of people come out of the woodwork to say, yes, they had one too. It is normally - as I'm sure you know - nobody's fault; simply that not all egg/sperms combinations can grow viable into a healthy foetus. (I'm sure medics could put this better.) We had a traumatic (is there any other kind?) miscarriage, followed by a pregnancy where we lost one of twins in the very early stages. However, the other baby grew fine (though of course we were on tenterhooks all the way through) and is now my lovely and perfectly healthy oldest daughter, and she was followed by babies 2 and 3. I am sure you just had an unlucky roll of the dice. There's no reason to think the dice are stacked against you. Best of luck, however you approach this.
Thank you for sharing, in an odd way it's good to know we're not alone.
@MaxPB. Really sorry to hear about this. Much sympathy. Tommy's.org has teams of qualified, specialist midwife bereavement counsellors available over the telephone who may be able to offer some support and medical information if that is the kind of thing you feel you need. They are a charity dealing specifically with this subject.
Edit : They also have peer support groups. You are very much not alone in this.
It is believed - IIRC the roll of the unit concerned also perished and they were never quite sure how many. So could have been worse (or better).
Edit: JJ got into the block ahead of me!
One of the few cases where there were both Scots and English enquiries as many of the injured were taken to hospital south of the border where they subsequently died, resulting in coroners in England and their Scottish counterparts both opining on the causes of the tragedy.
That's a nice historical quirk. I can't remember - did they opine differently?
I’m not sure - in different systems different questions will be asked coming to different conclusions based on the same facts. I think three signalmen ended up doing time in Scotland for what, to my poor English lawyer’s brain, would be regarded as manslaughter here. Surprisingly they got reemployed by the railway when they got out - but not as signalmen.
Did you actually read that article? It is clear that chestfeeding is an alternative term and doesn't exclude using the words mother or breastfeeding, but may be appropriate in some settings:
"Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust said its move was designed to be "inclusive of trans & non-binary birthing people without excluding the language of women or motherhood".
Other changes include using the pronouns they/them where applicable, as well as referring to the "co-parent" or "second biological parent".
It stressed that the changes "do not apply when discussing or caring for individuals in a one-on-one capacity where language and documentation should reflect the gender identity of the individual".
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?
Of course that might not be the situation
I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
See a decent gynecologist. A lot depends on the triggers for the miscarriage. Some of these are one offs, but others are recurrent and treatable. Certainly any future pregnancy would be a nervous one, and needs careful support.
Max, what a heartbreaking post. This has genuinely brought tears to my eyes. I don't know if I have any practical advice, except to say that - as I'm sure you know - miscarriages are very, very common - only because people don't really talk much about them no one realises how common they are until it happens to them. And then all sorts of people come out of the woodwork to say, yes, they had one too. It is normally - as I'm sure you know - nobody's fault; simply that not all egg/sperms combinations can grow viable into a healthy foetus. (I'm sure medics could put this better.) We had a traumatic (is there any other kind?) miscarriage, followed by a pregnancy where we lost one of twins in the very early stages. However, the other baby grew fine (though of course we were on tenterhooks all the way through) and is now my lovely and perfectly healthy oldest daughter, and she was followed by babies 2 and 3. I am sure you just had an unlucky roll of the dice. There's no reason to think the dice are stacked against you. Best of luck, however you approach this.
Thank you for sharing, in an odd way it's good to know we're not alone.
@MaxPB. Really sorry to hear about this. Much sympathy. Tommy's.org has teams of qualified, specialist midwife bereavement counsellors available over the telephone who may be able to offer some support and medical information if that is the kind of thing you feel you need. They are a charity dealing specifically with this subject.
My niece is raising money for them this weekend with a sponsored swimathon, she's swimming 100m unaided, which is pretty impressive for a 3 year old! My sister picked the charity and it was that which helped my wife open up about it to her. Very smart woman, my sister!
Roddy Dunlop QC @RoddyQC · 4h Is it April the first? Surely it must be? As otherwise tales that we cannot speak of “mothers” in scotland any more would be true.
He speaks of ‘mothers’ ‘literally’. This prohibition thing seems ineffective, unless he’s currently being rubber truncheoned by the Yestapo.
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?
Of course that might not be the situation
I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
Oh my Max, I am so sorry for you both. I experienced this earlier in the year and it's the absolute worst. We're trying and it's my most sincere hope that it won't happen again. Sending my love to your wife.
Thanks, I hope everything works out. I've resolved to talk to my wife this weekend and hopefully it will go well. Thanks to everyone here as well who has been supportive. It's good to know that we're not alone and other people have been through it and come out the other side. That has been what's eating at me, it's almost like I feel ashamed talking about it, as if we've done something horrible or that we have done something that made us deserve it. I know it's completely irrational but it's hard to shake.
Best of luck. Have a look at the Tommy's site, too. They might be have some pointers. And, if I could say just one thing, talk 'with' your wife, not 'to' her.
And again; we don't know who you are, you don't know who most of us are, but there's a whole fund of positivity, of goodwill, for the two of you here.
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
Much sympathy. I'm not sure if you're saying that you're finding it difficult to talk to your wife about it, but if you are then I reckon you need to find a way. My wife left her previous husband following a miscarriage (within a year). Of course there were many reasons for their relationship falling apart, but the catalyst for my wife was the miscarriage. Her ex-husband just wouldn't discuss it; it was almost as if he tried to pretend it hadn't happened. Her resentment about this grew and grew and, combined with other stuff, was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not suggesting for a moment that your position is similar. But I'm pretty convinced that women like men to talk about this stuff and not bury their heads in the sand. All the best.
Don’t know much about Felipe apart from his dad’s a dick and there’s an absolutely terrible portrait of him in Valencia military museum, but he’s now got some brownie points from me.
Roddy Dunlop QC @RoddyQC · 4h Is it April the first? Surely it must be? As otherwise tales that we cannot speak of “mothers” in scotland any more would be true.
He speaks of ‘mothers’ ‘literally’. This prohibition thing seems ineffective, unless he’s currently being rubber truncheoned by the Yestapo.
I just call you "SNP types" now - I'm hoping the meme makes it to papers like other PB memes
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
@MaxPB I'm really sorry to hear about all of this. All I would say is that, from the experience of previous traumas, it is best to talk honestly about how you feel and, as I am sure you can see on here, people will be a lot more supportive than you think. Best of luck whatever happens.
On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.
I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.
Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.
To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.
""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196
He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.
I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for him, but the rot starts at the top with Boeing. While it seems that he bears significant responsibility, there is likely an element of everyone else's culpability being dumped on him, too.
And this is quite amazing, historically. Although in some circumstances the network got very, very lucky, and a simple incident could have been much nastier. But that's always been the case.
On thread - superb article @Quincel . Thought-prrovoking. We don't all have responsibility for preventing pandemics or keeping an eye on doctors, but probably all of us in our lives have responsibility for some things which could end disastrously. Worth reflecting once in while whether we are approaching risk in the right way.
Can't believe it is much quicker, congestion or no.
Hopefully Evans back in our defence, but will miss Ndidi in midfield. Leicester are scoring well, but letting in far too many. United to win, both teams to score IMO.
Political discourse on all sides, partly fuelled by social media, has become coarsened, and abuse is more widespread, although nothing new. Whether it's calling Tories scum, or referring to 'remoaners' as traitors and quislings, it's not particularly healthy. There has been poor behaviour, and some intimidation, on both sides. It's not great, but it hasn't resulted in much actual violence, let alone serious violence. Whatever people say, there is a difference between throwing a milk shake at somebody, or intimidating Chris Whitty, and stabbing somebody to death.
So I'd argue that the connection between this discourse and yesterday's events is slender, if it exists at all. According to MI5 and everybody else involved in counter-terrorism, the threat of terror now is dominated by two groups: extremist Islamic fundamentalists, and the extreme far right. A cursory scan through convictions for terrorism and planning for terrorism demonstrate this to be the case. In the case of the murder of two MPs, this seems to fit (yes, I know we do not know enough yet about yesterday's events).
People may feel better trying to find blame. But the blame belongs entirely to the psychopaths (often mentally disturbed) who do the deeds, and those who enlist them to do the dirty work of the extreme Islamists or the modern-day fascists. Nobody else.
There's probably no connection. But like that cartoon about what if we save the world for 'nothing' by going green, what if we improved our political discourse even if there is indeed no connection with murderous actions?
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
Much sympathy. I'm not sure if you're saying that you're finding it difficult to talk to your wife about it, but if you are then I reckon you need to find a way. My wife left her previous husband following a miscarriage (within a year). Of course there were many reasons for their relationship falling apart, but the catalyst for my wife was the miscarriage. Her ex-husband just wouldn't discuss it; it was almost as if he tried to pretend it hadn't happened. Her resentment about this grew and grew and, combined with other stuff, was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not suggesting for a moment that your position is similar. But I'm pretty convinced that women like men to talk about this stuff and not bury their heads in the sand. All the best.
Have to say my gf and I never really spoke about the miscarriage. I think good expectations management is to not consider yourselves pregnant until the first scan, rather than getting too excited at a positive test. Years ago most women must have miscarried without even knowing they were pregnant as testing was less easy to come by. My gf was testing before her period was due. Personally I tried to consider a positive test as just "an increased chance of falling pregnant" rather than thinking of baby names, although I don't know whether I managed to actually do that
Roddy Dunlop QC @RoddyQC · 4h Is it April the first? Surely it must be? As otherwise tales that we cannot speak of “mothers” in scotland any more would be true.
He speaks of ‘mothers’ ‘literally’. This prohibition thing seems ineffective, unless he’s currently being rubber truncheoned by the Yestapo.
I just call you "SNP types" now - I'm hoping the meme makes it to papers like other PB memes
I just think of you as twerp in a blazer in a Torry bar now, but I accept that’s a meme that will not make it outwith the bounds of the White Cockade.
I find point 2 pretty compelling, that tragedy is often preventable but may not always be forseeable. It's depressing, and it will be used as an excuse even when it isn't the case, but it will occur.
That Grenfell is a negative example of politicised conclusions is unfortunate but was very apparent. In a way the 'voice' of victims being paramount in some eyes can be a hindrance, as they usually know what they think, and want blood out of understandable fury. But for instance when victim groups seem to want to almost veto appointments, even worthy ones, for marginal if even that connections which they treat as proof of bias, it makes an already hard job harder.
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
Much sympathy. I'm not sure if you're saying that you're finding it difficult to talk to your wife about it, but if you are then I reckon you need to find a way. My wife left her previous husband following a miscarriage (within a year). Of course there were many reasons for their relationship falling apart, but the catalyst for my wife was the miscarriage. Her ex-husband just wouldn't discuss it; it was almost as if he tried to pretend it hadn't happened. Her resentment about this grew and grew and, combined with other stuff, was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not suggesting for a moment that your position is similar. But I'm pretty convinced that women like men to talk about this stuff and not bury their heads in the sand. All the best.
Have to say my gf and I never really spoke about the miscarriage. I think good expectations management is to not consider yourselves pregnant until the first scan, rather than getting too excited at a positive test. Years ago most women must have miscarried without even knowing they were pregnant as testing was less easy to come by. My gf was testing before her period was due. Personally I tried to consider a positive test as just "an increased chance of falling pregnant" rather than thinking of baby names, although I don't know whether I managed to actually do that
Yes, though I think there's quite a difference between a very early miscarriage and a much later one; both are traumatic, but the latter more so. My wife's was quite late on in her pregnancy.
Roddy Dunlop QC @RoddyQC · 4h Is it April the first? Surely it must be? As otherwise tales that we cannot speak of “mothers” in scotland any more would be true.
He speaks of ‘mothers’ ‘literally’. This prohibition thing seems ineffective, unless he’s currently being rubber truncheoned by the Yestapo.
I just call you "SNP types" now - I'm hoping the meme makes it to papers like other PB memes
I just think of you as twerp in a blazer in a Torry bar now, but I accept that’s a meme that will not make it outwith the bounds of the White Cockade.
Lol - I couldn't possible comment on whether you've picked the correct Torry pub
Is this PB's doing? @CarlottaVance raised it yesterday with regard to Scotland.
Presumably it is chestfeeding too.
That's different. I've not read the Times but it does occur that talking about mothers and fathers can be ambiguous depending on context, now that there are so many "non-traditional" family structures in place. In terms of maternity wards, it is obvious who the mother is, so it is bloody silly to replace the word. In terms of later benefits or schools admin or maternity leave, is mother the birth-giver or the woman who sleeps with dad and butters the toast in the morning? And where there is no female adult in the family?
The word "parent" will do in those situations. But there is absolutely no reason to remove or replace the word "mother" for the vast majority of situations when it is perfectly obvious that there is a mother and who it is. And I really don't see what business it is of a charity which claims to speak for some of a minority group to tell public bodies how to call women. How about asking women? Or, you know, mothers. There are lots of us about.
The Nolan podcast is well worth a listen. Notably Stonewall refused to participate - though Ben Cohen of Pink News did bat for them.
I fear Stonewall has somewhat lost its way after an honourable record. Systemically, public bodies like the BBC and OFCOM paying Stonewall for advice, then working to climb Stonewall's "inclusivity" rankings by demonstrating compliance with Stonewall guidelines should have set alarm bells ringing.
They are not "impartial" - what they argue for may well have merit, but to present it as the law is to mislead, and to undermine the other good work they do.
Additionally their vituperation directed at others in the field of LGB advocacy who do not toe Stonewall's line is short sighted in the extreme. Engage with the argument, if you're so confident of its merits, don't simply name call.
Can't believe it is much quicker, congestion or no.
Hopefully Evans back in our defence, but will miss Ndidi in midfield. Leicester are scoring well, but letting in far too many. United to win, both teams to score IMO.
Firmly in the Foxes camp after reading about this flight. Don't want to come over all Greta, but this sets a truly rank example. If they are worried about the journey, why not set off earlier, or stay overnight? Football has a social responsibility whether they like it or not.
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
I've been through this, it can be deeply traumatic. And the obvious way past is, yes, have a baby. If you both want one, why not?
Of course that might not be the situation
I think she's afraid of getting pregnant again, it wasn't our first miscarriage, we had one much earlier on before we were married and my sister said she's worried that she can't. It's been playing on my mind for the last year but I have no idea how to approach the subject.
Oh my Max, I am so sorry for you both. I experienced this earlier in the year and it's the absolute worst. We're trying and it's my most sincere hope that it won't happen again. Sending my love to your wife.
Thanks, I hope everything works out. I've resolved to talk to my wife this weekend and hopefully it will go well. Thanks to everyone here as well who has been supportive. It's good to know that we're not alone and other people have been through it and come out the other side. That has been what's eating at me, it's almost like I feel ashamed talking about it, as if we've done something horrible or that we have done something that made us deserve it. I know it's completely irrational but it's hard to shake.
Good luck for both of you, Max. Irrational ideas ARE harder to shake than rational ones! - but knowing they're irrational is a good start.
As I found when I aired a personal issue last year, this forum is a good place to get supportive and genuinely useful comment, with "strangers who are not strangers" who wish you well. It's sometimes easier than consulting people who you run into all the time. Also every sympathy and good fortune to Pulpstar and Mrs P.
We've got our niece for the afternoon and we're watching The Lion King on Disney+. Kids are the best. I think my wife blames herself over our miscarriage last year and I still have no idea how to approach the subject. My sister got her to open up about it a few nights ago for the first time in a year since it happened. Is the only way past it to have a baby?
Much sympathy. I'm not sure if you're saying that you're finding it difficult to talk to your wife about it, but if you are then I reckon you need to find a way. My wife left her previous husband following a miscarriage (within a year). Of course there were many reasons for their relationship falling apart, but the catalyst for my wife was the miscarriage. Her ex-husband just wouldn't discuss it; it was almost as if he tried to pretend it hadn't happened. Her resentment about this grew and grew and, combined with other stuff, was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not suggesting for a moment that your position is similar. But I'm pretty convinced that women like men to talk about this stuff and not bury their heads in the sand. All the best.
Have to say my gf and I never really spoke about the miscarriage. I think good expectations management is to not consider yourselves pregnant until the first scan, rather than getting too excited at a positive test. Years ago most women must have miscarried without even knowing they were pregnant as testing was less easy to come by. My gf was testing before her period was due. Personally I tried to consider a positive test as just "an increased chance of falling pregnant" rather than thinking of baby names, although I don't know whether I managed to actually do that
Yes, though I think there's quite a difference between a very early miscarriage and a much later one; both are traumatic, but the latter more so. My wife's was quite late on in her pregnancy.
Definitely yes. Ours was very early so, sad as it was, it could have been worse
Political discourse on all sides, partly fuelled by social media, has become coarsened, and abuse is more widespread, although nothing new. Whether it's calling Tories scum, or referring to 'remoaners' as traitors and quislings, it's not particularly healthy. There has been poor behaviour, and some intimidation, on both sides. It's not great, but it hasn't resulted in much actual violence, let alone serious violence. Whatever people say, there is a difference between throwing a milk shake at somebody, or intimidating Chris Whitty, and stabbing somebody to death.
So I'd argue that the connection between this discourse and yesterday's events is slender, if it exists at all. According to MI5 and everybody else involved in counter-terrorism, the threat of terror now is dominated by two groups: extremist Islamic fundamentalists, and the extreme far right. A cursory scan through convictions for terrorism and planning for terrorism demonstrate this to be the case. In the case of the murder of two MPs, this seems to fit (yes, I know we do not know enough yet about yesterday's events).
People may feel better trying to find blame. But the blame belongs entirely to the psychopaths (often mentally disturbed) who do the deeds, and those who enlist them to do the dirty work of the extreme Islamists or the modern-day fascists. Nobody else.
There's probably no connection. But like that cartoon about what if we save the world for 'nothing' by going green, what if we improved our political discourse even if there is indeed no connection with murderous actions?
Absolutely agree, and I've been clear about that in many of my posts. Our political discourse (including sometimes on here) is often uncivilised, counterproductive, and too personal. We could be so much better.
Roddy Dunlop QC @RoddyQC · 4h Is it April the first? Surely it must be? As otherwise tales that we cannot speak of “mothers” in scotland any more would be true.
He speaks of ‘mothers’ ‘literally’. This prohibition thing seems ineffective, unless he’s currently being rubber truncheoned by the Yestapo.
I just call you "SNP types" now - I'm hoping the meme makes it to papers like other PB memes
I just think of you as twerp in a blazer in a Torry bar now, but I accept that’s a meme that will not make it outwith the bounds of the White Cockade.
Lol - I couldn't possible comment on whether you've picked the correct Torry pub
There aren’t many left. My mother lived in Grampian Rd for a few years so the White Cockade was the easy, flat-roofed option for a pint. I preferred the 19th Hole if the weather was fine cos I could smoke a cigar outside, but I believe it like my ma is no longer extant.
On topic, what to do after a disaster depends on what you want. The alternative to a full, public inquiry is the departmental lessons learned exercise. If you're looking for practical recommendations, the latter is the way to go. It is nearly always quicker and cheaper, the people who conduct it generally aren't starting from scratch and it is less likly to become politicised. So I think where what is needed is practial improvements rather than blaming someone it is generally the best way forward. The main point is to make sure that the person who conducts it can't be tainted with the original cock-up (which of course means you need to take an early view on what went, or could have, gone wrong). Otherwise he will always be anxious to exonerate himself, and so there will always be suspicions of a whitewash.
But when the public, or parts of it, is desperate for someone to blame, as over Hillsborough or Iraq or Chinese flu, there will always be more catharsis from an inquiry that tells them what they want to hear. They probably won't even read the highly technical recommendations, just the summary is in the press that says "X cocked up". In fact, as the truth is rarely that simple, the public is very rarely satisfied. But that doesn't stop people asking for them, and politicians feeling they have to grant them.
Some good points there. Don't really disagree as such but -
After a disaster costing lives it's not simply that the public are desperate for someone to blame. This implies there never is anyone to blame - but sometimes there is. There are people whose incompetence or complacency or recklessness caused what happened to happen and where this is the case it shouldn't be hidden behind a "bad system" and "lessons learnt" smokescreen.
Also, consider not the public but the victims. It's only natural they wish to see justice and what they mean by "justice" is not lessons learnt but the culprits brought to account and punished. They want to see the people responsible pay a price. This urge has to be tempered by the greater objectivity of those not directly impacted, and it mustn't override the facts, but it should always be in the mix. It's been the driving force in the uncovering of many scandals over the years.
Yes that's true, but I can't help but think that blaming and justice for victims etc. is the purview of the criminal law, which has more safeguards than a public inquiry.
(I'm probably jaundiced having worked on, and given evidence to, various government commissions - never a post-disaster one though).
Excellent article by @Quincel - while part of it reminds me of the old maxim that those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it (and that resonates through so much of who we are and how we act), there is or are also the "black swan" effects for which one can only be so prepared.
There's another old maxim in local Government - "hope for the best and prepare for the worst". From motorway crashes to the unthinkable of a nuclear holocaust, there are plans for everything. Even when the coronavirus struck, plans for dealing with a major epidemic were implemented - groups were hastily convened and temporary mortuaries long in the planning were put together. I'd argue whatever the failings in the political response to coronavirus, the practical response, especially at local Government level, was excellent.
The trickier area is the extent to which our own habits and failings contribute to and exacerbate disaster. These can be organisational (the Herald of Free Enterprise was running to a tight schedule), cultural (what we eat, the availability of unhealthy food) and personal (our health decisions, poor personal hygiene, poor understanding of how germs and viruses spread etc).
It comes back, I think, to public "education" (bring back the old Public Information Films!) but also to organisational and cultural priorities (it isn't all about the bottom line for example).
One thing the coronavirus has thrown into sharp relief is the way we live (or are forced to live). I'd argue it has allowed a lot of people to evaluate or re-evaluate their lives and life choices. "Eat, Sleep, Work, Repeat" as the graffiti tells us manifests to a drone-like existence where we seem nothing more than units of economic production, consumption and re-production.
Indeed, those who opposed the restrictions imposed by Government to try to reduce the spread of the virus couched their arguments in economic terms.
"Is this all there is, is there nothing more?" as someone once asked. There are many who find answers to that question through faith but that's not the only route.
Roddy Dunlop QC @RoddyQC · 4h Is it April the first? Surely it must be? As otherwise tales that we cannot speak of “mothers” in scotland any more would be true.
He speaks of ‘mothers’ ‘literally’. This prohibition thing seems ineffective, unless he’s currently being rubber truncheoned by the Yestapo.
I just call you "SNP types" now - I'm hoping the meme makes it to papers like other PB memes
I just think of you as twerp in a blazer in a Torry bar now, but I accept that’s a meme that will not make it outwith the bounds of the White Cockade.
Lol - I couldn't possible comment on whether you've picked the correct Torry pub
There aren’t many left. My mother lived in Grampian Rd for a few years so the White Cockade was the easy, flat-roofed option for a pint. I preferred the 19th Hole if the weather was fine cos I could smoke a cigar outside, but I believe it like my ma is no longer extant.
Yes I was fairly sure you were Aberdonian. You seem settled in the Central Belt quite nicely
It is superb. And, whatever else may be said or thought about Tyson Fury, he is a super cool dude for participating.
Is it edited footage of a real fight? One of my closest friends commited suicide in January after a long batle with his mental health, and CALM was the charity we gave to in his memory. Watching that video was very moving, so powerful
It is superb. And, whatever else may be said or thought about Tyson Fury, he is a super cool dude for participating.
Whatever one thinks about boxing and Tyson Fury, he strikes me as a genuine man, who has made the most of his opportunities. Of which, at one stage there didn't appear to be many good ones.
Mr. Alistair, it remains unwittingly hilarious, yet also concerning, that the committee is called 'for Women and Equalities'.
Yes shits and giggles time.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
Are they? Do you have any examples of surgery for gender at that age?
I'm not aware if the NHS has declared what age dicks (male, lol) get cut off but I do know they practice gender re-assignment at around that age.
Here are the guidance for England. In appendix 4 it specifies the minimum age for surgery as 17, and with a minimum of 12 months of hormonal treatment.
It seriously is beginning to look like moving out of this country is the only option for many parents looking to protect their kids (if they have the option of moving out of here at all!)
On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.
I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.
Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.
To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.
""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196
He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.
I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for him, but the rot starts at the top with Boeing. While it seems that he bears significant responsibility, there is likely an element of everyone else's culpability being dumped on him, too.
Indeed. Mr Forkner was the most senior person on whom the prosecutors could pin blame, but it was well known within the company that they had a large order of 737-Max aircraft, that was contingent on no training being required for pilots familiar with the existing 737-NG aircraft. The guy in charge of the certification program would have been well aware, that they needed to make the new plane work exactly the same as the old one.
The suggestion is of a rotten corporate culture, run from the top by MBAs rather than engineers, and where the very senior management actively avoid getting into the details of things like MCAS, so as to absolve them from blame. They will definitely have noticed the $2.5bn fine though, and the reputational damage.
Mr. Alistair, it remains unwittingly hilarious, yet also concerning, that the committee is called 'for Women and Equalities'.
Yes shits and giggles time.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
Are they? Do you have any examples of surgery for gender at that age?
I'm not aware if the NHS has declared what age dicks (male, lol) get cut off but I do know they practice gender re-assignment at around that age.
Here are the guidance for England. In appendix 4 it specifies the minimum age for surgery as 17, and with a minimum of 12 months of hormonal treatment.
Murdo Fraser @murdo_fraser I see that @lornaslater has now deleted her racist tweet. This is what a Scottish Govt Minister thought was appropriate:
Indeed. Mr Forkner was the most senior person on whom the prosecutors could pin blame, but it was well known within the company that they had a large order of 737-Max aircraft, that was contingent on no training being required for pilots familiar with the existing 737-NG aircraft. The guy in charge of the certification program would have been well aware, that they needed to make the new plane work exactly the same as the old one. e.
That guy has had a very weird career trajectory to say the least. USAF C-17 driver -> FO at AS -> desk job at FAA -> Chief Technical Pilot at Boeing(!) -> FO at WN -> Middle Class Unemployed (ie masquerading as a consultant)
He didn't have anything like the CV you'd normally need for that job at Boeing. I don't think we are getting the full story.
Mr. Alistair, it remains unwittingly hilarious, yet also concerning, that the committee is called 'for Women and Equalities'.
Yes shits and giggles time.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
Are they? Do you have any examples of surgery for gender at that age?
I'm not aware if the NHS has declared what age dicks (male, lol) get cut off but I do know they practice gender re-assignment at around that age.
Here are the guidance for England. In appendix 4 it specifies the minimum age for surgery as 17, and with a minimum of 12 months of hormonal treatment.
Indeed. Mr Forkner was the most senior person on whom the prosecutors could pin blame, but it was well known within the company that they had a large order of 737-Max aircraft, that was contingent on no training being required for pilots familiar with the existing 737-NG aircraft. The guy in charge of the certification program would have been well aware, that they needed to make the new plane work exactly the same as the old one. e.
That guy has had a very weird career trajectory to say the least. USAF C-17 driver -> FO at AS -> desk job at FAA -> Chief Technical Pilot at Boeing(!) -> FO at WN -> Middle Class Unemployed (ie masquerading as a consultant)
He didn't have anything like the CV you'd normally need for that job at Boeing. I don't think we are getting the full story.
If we did have such a story as you hint at, we wouldn’t be sharing it on here anyway as OGH would have to take them down.
Mr. Alistair, it remains unwittingly hilarious, yet also concerning, that the committee is called 'for Women and Equalities'.
Yes shits and giggles time.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
Are they? Do you have any examples of surgery for gender at that age?
I'm not aware if the NHS has declared what age dicks (male, lol) get cut off but I do know they practice gender re-assignment at around that age.
Here are the guidance for England. In appendix 4 it specifies the minimum age for surgery as 17, and with a minimum of 12 months of hormonal treatment.
Mr. Alistair, it remains unwittingly hilarious, yet also concerning, that the committee is called 'for Women and Equalities'.
Yes shits and giggles time.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
Are they? Do you have any examples of surgery for gender at that age?
I'm not aware if the NHS has declared what age dicks (male, lol) get cut off but I do know they practice gender re-assignment at around that age.
Here are the guidance for England. In appendix 4 it specifies the minimum age for surgery as 17, and with a minimum of 12 months of hormonal treatment.
Mr. Alistair, it remains unwittingly hilarious, yet also concerning, that the committee is called 'for Women and Equalities'.
Yes shits and giggles time.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
Are they? Do you have any examples of surgery for gender at that age?
I'm not aware if the NHS has declared what age dicks (male, lol) get cut off but I do know they practice gender re-assignment at around that age.
Here are the guidance for England. In appendix 4 it specifies the minimum age for surgery as 17, and with a minimum of 12 months of hormonal treatment.
Puberty blockers may start earlier, as can hormonal treatment but surgery only from age 17 so far as I can see.
Fine. If the woke agenda get their way that age will only go lower.
You are complaining about something that hasn't happened and now complaining about people doing something in the future that hasn't happened either.
We have enough complaining here about stuff that has happened, just think what we could do here if we all started complaining about stuff that hasn't happened. Poor Boris (change to whatever person you hate) won't stand a chance.
It seriously is beginning to look like moving out of this country is the only option for many parents looking to protect their kids (if they have the option of moving out of here at all!)
What really gets me with "experts" like Deepti and Christina Pagel is that they genuinely believe public opinion is on their side and they can't understand why no one in government is listening to them.
Although, given they're pro restrictions, it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't actually been in a busy public space over the last few months so they don't know that most people are just getting on with it.
Murdo Fraser @murdo_fraser I see that @lornaslater has now deleted her racist tweet. This is what a Scottish Govt Minister thought was appropriate:
On topic, what to do after a disaster depends on what you want. The alternative to a full, public inquiry is the departmental lessons learned exercise. If you're looking for practical recommendations, the latter is the way to go. It is nearly always quicker and cheaper, the people who conduct it generally aren't starting from scratch and it is less likly to become politicised. So I think where what is needed is practial improvements rather than blaming someone it is generally the best way forward. The main point is to make sure that the person who conducts it can't be tainted with the original cock-up (which of course means you need to take an early view on what went, or could have, gone wrong). Otherwise he will always be anxious to exonerate himself, and so there will always be suspicions of a whitewash.
But when the public, or parts of it, is desperate for someone to blame, as over Hillsborough or Iraq or Chinese flu, there will always be more catharsis from an inquiry that tells them what they want to hear. They probably won't even read the highly technical recommendations, just the summary is in the press that says "X cocked up". In fact, as the truth is rarely that simple, the public is very rarely satisfied. But that doesn't stop people asking for them, and politicians feeling they have to grant them.
Some good points there. Don't really disagree as such but -
After a disaster costing lives it's not simply that the public are desperate for someone to blame. This implies there never is anyone to blame - but sometimes there is. There are people whose incompetence or complacency or recklessness caused what happened to happen and where this is the case it shouldn't be hidden behind a "bad system" and "lessons learnt" smokescreen.
Also, consider not the public but the victims. It's only natural they wish to see justice and what they mean by "justice" is not lessons learnt but the culprits brought to account and punished. They want to see the people responsible pay a price. This urge has to be tempered by the greater objectivity of those not directly impacted, and it mustn't override the facts, but it should always be in the mix. It's been the driving force in the uncovering of many scandals over the years.
The issue is how much in the mix. Driving force to have an investigation perhaps, but 'involvement' is what many want, but tragedy does not imbue them with unique ability to get to the facts, though the perspective should be important.
Ultimately it seems reasonable you keep victims at the forefront of thoughts, but not that your goal is to grant them peace or justice - that might come, but it might not be possible or even, in some cases, what the facts suggest.
Mr. Alistair, it remains unwittingly hilarious, yet also concerning, that the committee is called 'for Women and Equalities'.
Yes shits and giggles time.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
Are they? Do you have any examples of surgery for gender at that age?
I'm not aware if the NHS has declared what age dicks (male, lol) get cut off but I do know they practice gender re-assignment at around that age.
Here are the guidance for England. In appendix 4 it specifies the minimum age for surgery as 17, and with a minimum of 12 months of hormonal treatment.
On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.
I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.
Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.
To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.
""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196
He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.
I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for him, but the rot starts at the top with Boeing. While it seems that he bears significant responsibility, there is likely an element of everyone else's culpability being dumped on him, too.
Indeed. Mr Forkner was the most senior person on whom the prosecutors could pin blame, but it was well known within the company that they had a large order of 737-Max aircraft, that was contingent on no training being required for pilots familiar with the existing 737-NG aircraft. The guy in charge of the certification program would have been well aware, that they needed to make the new plane work exactly the same as the old one.
The suggestion is of a rotten corporate culture, run from the top by MBAs rather than engineers, and where the very senior management actively avoid getting into the details of things like MCAS, so as to absolve them from blame. They will definitely have noticed the $2.5bn fine though, and the reputational damage.
That's partly my point. The decision was made that the 737Max would require no specialist training. That was not decided by the certification program, but by others. It was a dream that reality could not match: something had to give. Everyone in Boeing (and the FAA, who are not blameless) then kidded themselves that it was reality; that Boeing's rubber-band and glue approach would suffice.
It didn't.
A test department (and in a way, that is what certification is) must have the freedom to push the 'stop' button, even if it causes the organisation money. This is especially true where safety is involved. Instead, all too often, such departments become yes-houses without the ability to stop things significantly. The FAA suffered regulatory capture; several of Boeing's internal departments also seem to have suffered from it.
The 737 Max was a systematic failure; and the people responsible for those systems within Boeing and the FAA are the major culprits. And they're the ones getting away with it.
Murdo Fraser @murdo_fraser I see that @lornaslater has now deleted her racist tweet. This is what a Scottish Govt Minister thought was appropriate:
Frieze sitrep 2. You’re meant to wear a mask but the Brits and Italians are abandoning them.
A guy next to me has just bought an amazing Chinese artwork for £29,000
How can anyone possibly get $29,000 worth of pleasure out of a painting? It is just vanity and showing off at that point. Seems obscene to spend so much on something with no practical use when you think how many malaria nets that could buy.
Murdo Fraser @murdo_fraser I see that @lornaslater has now deleted her racist tweet. This is what a Scottish Govt Minister thought was appropriate:
It can be a lonely kind of grief, bereaving the void of a person that never was. Made worse because all around you are people who are seemingly able to brush it away: “it’s no big deal and happens to loads of people, don’t worry just try again, chin up, back in the day you weren’t pregnant until you were showing”. Etc… All the while the medical statistics and unknown diagnostic permutations bounce around your head, unspoken but always there. Every pregnancy announcement around you sparking a secret twinge of envy and guilt.
I remember reading quite a bit of Rovelli at the time, about how time doesn’t flow linearly but is a warped canvas that loops in on itself with the planes never quite touching. Often are the times I want to reach across that narrow metaphysical gap and put my hand on the shoulders of the younger me and the younger her. Just to say “if you could see what I could see you’d realise that there’s no need to worry”.
Indeed. Mr Forkner was the most senior person on whom the prosecutors could pin blame, but it was well known within the company that they had a large order of 737-Max aircraft, that was contingent on no training being required for pilots familiar with the existing 737-NG aircraft. The guy in charge of the certification program would have been well aware, that they needed to make the new plane work exactly the same as the old one. e.
That guy has had a very weird career trajectory to say the least. USAF C-17 driver -> FO at AS -> desk job at FAA -> Chief Technical Pilot at Boeing(!) -> FO at WN -> Middle Class Unemployed (ie masquerading as a consultant)
He didn't have anything like the CV you'd normally need for that job at Boeing. I don't think we are getting the full story.
Ahh, an ex-mil pilot. That explains it, dodgy feckers that lot.
Frieze sitrep 2. You’re meant to wear a mask but the Brits and Italians are abandoning them.
A guy next to me has just bought an amazing Chinese artwork for £29,000
How can anyone possibly get $29,000 worth of pleasure out of a painting? It is just vanity and showing off at that point. Seems obscene to spend so much on something with no practical use when you think how many malaria nets that could buy.
Tbh 29k isn't that much for a decent painting, the one I own only cost a few hundred but fits my house very well and well I enjoy it
Frieze sitrep 2. You’re meant to wear a mask but the Brits and Italians are abandoning them.
A guy next to me has just bought an amazing Chinese artwork for £29,000
How can anyone possibly get $29,000 worth of pleasure out of a painting? It is just vanity and showing off at that point. Seems obscene to spend so much on something with no practical use when you think how many malaria nets that could buy.
Gosh that’s nothing. About 3 years ago at Frieze Masters (the part of the fair that mixes Renaissance and world art and impressionists and everything-not-contemporary) I overheard this exchange
On topic I really did not agree with most of the content of the Select Committee's Inquiry into Covid. I thought that the focus on lives lost at a particular point in time was misleading. But they did, in fairness, seem to take Pip's message to heart and very much focused on systems and process rather than individuals.
I am slightly ambivalent about this. There was a story on here yesterday about the prosecution of a Boeing executive for effectively manslaughter. I immediately and wrongly jumped on the outrage bus. He was a patsy, it was absurd that one person could be responsible for such systemic fault, it was letting the company off the hook. And then @Sandpit pointed out that the person was the man responsible for signing off the safety certificate on the plane. Which made me feel even more stupid than normal.
Studies of accidents, especially medical negligence, that I have read emphasise systems above all else. We all hate the tick box and the tick box mentality even more but Pip is right to say that systems are the key. Safety needs to be built into routine. On the other hand personal responsibility is important too, like the guy from Boeing.
To be fair, the Boeing situation is fairly complex. He was responsible for the fact that the MCAS system was not mentioned in documents to pilots, and various other related issues.
""In an attempt to save Boeing money, [Mr] Forkner allegedly withheld critical information from regulators," said Chad Meacham, acting US attorney for Northern Texas. "His callous choice to mislead the FAA hampered the agency's ability to protect the flying public and left pilots in the lurch, lacking information about certain 737 Max flight controls." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58926196
He has been charged with fraud. Not to gain millions of dollars for himself, but for the company. The company put him under f'loads of pressure to ensure that the 737 Max could fly without new training for pilots, saving Boeing money. He did not do it for himself. That is why IMO he is a fall guy for much greater failings within the company. Some interesting emails from and to him have been released as well; some do not paint him in a good light, but show the pressure the team were under.
I feel rather sorry for him. Perhaps mistakenly, but there you go.
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for him, but the rot starts at the top with Boeing. While it seems that he bears significant responsibility, there is likely an element of everyone else's culpability being dumped on him, too.
Indeed. Mr Forkner was the most senior person on whom the prosecutors could pin blame, but it was well known within the company that they had a large order of 737-Max aircraft, that was contingent on no training being required for pilots familiar with the existing 737-NG aircraft. The guy in charge of the certification program would have been well aware, that they needed to make the new plane work exactly the same as the old one.
The suggestion is of a rotten corporate culture, run from the top by MBAs rather than engineers, and where the very senior management actively avoid getting into the details of things like MCAS, so as to absolve them from blame. They will definitely have noticed the $2.5bn fine though, and the reputational damage.
That's partly my point. The decision was made that the 737Max would require no specialist training. That was not decided by the certification program, but by others. It was a dream that reality could not match: something had to give. Everyone in Boeing (and the FAA, who are not blameless) then kidded themselves that it was reality; that Boeing's rubber-band and glue approach would suffice.
It didn't.
A test department (and in a way, that is what certification is) must have the freedom to push the 'stop' button, even if it causes the organisation money. This is especially true where safety is involved. Instead, all too often, such departments become yes-houses without the ability to stop things significantly. The FAA suffered regulatory capture; several of Boeing's internal departments also seem to have suffered from it.
The 737 Max was a systematic failure; and the people responsible for those systems within Boeing and the FAA are the major culprits. And they're the ones getting away with it.
Very much so. The problems at Boeing are also problems at the FAA, who have lost sight of their regulatory role in recent years - to the point they effectively let the manufacturers certify their own aircraft with little oversight. Heads need to roll at the FAA, for the failures that allowed the 737-Max to ever leave the factory.
The most annoying thing about this whole debacle, is that the MCAS isn’t a particularly complicated system, and a pilot briefed on its operation and how to disable it, would likely have not had the two accidents the plane suffered.
Frieze sitrep 2. You’re meant to wear a mask but the Brits and Italians are abandoning them.
A guy next to me has just bought an amazing Chinese artwork for £29,000
How can anyone possibly get $29,000 worth of pleasure out of a painting? It is just vanity and showing off at that point. Seems obscene to spend so much on something with no practical use when you think how many malaria nets that could buy.
Imagine what £18.5m of pleasure looks like?
'Banksy: New auction record for artist as shredded canvas Love Is In The Bin sells for £18.5m at Sotheby's'
Just realised I was posting on an old thread so in response to @Philip_Thompson post on that thread and regarding whether parties should stand in by elections caused by assassinations:
After the 3 assassinations by the IRA/INLA all parties fought the following by elections, although in fact only 2 took place because one was too close to a General Election. I was surprised at the time by the public's reaction at the Eastbourne by election. I thought they would swing behind the Conservative candidate in an act of defiance against the IRA. There was also a swing against the Conservatives when Michael Portillo won in his by election. The public are more hard nosed than I would have thought.
I agree with Philip, there are arguments both ways as whether parties should stand or not. It is important to give the message that we will not be beaten by terrorism, but which gives that message best.
The Tories fought a terrible campaign in Eastbourne. Their candidate issued a leaflet literally saying that if you didn't vote for him you were an IRA supporter.
It's the Council of Europe flag, this came up a few months ago IIRC.
The UK is still a member.
Phew, all the 'Hate the EU, love Europe' lads can rest easy.
Turns out I was wrong, kinda.
The European flag is to continue flying outside the Scottish Parliament beyond Brexit after MSPs voted to keep it up.
Holyrood's management group had planned to lower the flag at 23:00 on Friday, the moment the UK leaves the EU.
However MSPs voted by 63 to 54 to overturn this decision after the Scottish government forced a debate.
Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh warned ministers not to politicise the issue, saying the flags flown at Holyrood "reflect our relationships in law".
The Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems argued that the "non-political" decision of the Parliamentary Corporate Body should be respected, but SNP and Green MSPs united to "direct" the group to keep the flag up.
The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (SPCB) - a management group made up of an MSP from each of Holyrood's parties - had made the decision to remove the flag after Brexit, but to fly it each year on Europe Day.
However this has now been overturned after a brief but heated debate in the chamber, with the group pledging to abide by the result of the vote.
The motion passed by MSPs noted that Scotland and the UK would remain in the Council of Europe, and said the flag should stay up "as a sign of support and solidarity with those EU nationals who have made Scotland their home".
Leading for the government, External Affairs Secretary Fiona Hyslop said MSPs should "stand firm in solidarity with all the EU citizens who live in Scotland" and keep the flag flying "as a practical demonstration of our regret" about Brexit.
She said ministers did not take the prospect of "directing" the parliamentary authorities lightly, and said "it should not happen regularly" - but said "I do not believe their decision reflects the views of parliament as a whole, and nor do I believe that the decision could be non-political".
Green MSP Ross Greer echoed that point, saying there was "no way to make the binary choice between keeping the European flag up and taking it down without that choice being political".
It's the Council of Europe flag, this came up a few months ago IIRC.
The UK is still a member.
Phew, all the 'Hate the EU, love Europe' lads can rest easy.
Turns out I was wrong.
The European flag is to continue flying outside the Scottish Parliament beyond Brexit after MSPs voted to keep it up.
Holyrood's management group had planned to lower the flag at 23:00 on Friday, the moment the UK leaves the EU.
However MSPs voted by 63 to 54 to overturn this decision after the Scottish government forced a debate.
Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh warned ministers not to politicise the issue, saying the flags flown at Holyrood "reflect our relationships in law".
The Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems argued that the "non-political" decision of the Parliamentary Corporate Body should be respected, but SNP and Green MSPs united to "direct" the group to keep the flag up.
The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (SPCB) - a management group made up of an MSP from each of Holyrood's parties - had made the decision to remove the flag after Brexit, but to fly it each year on Europe Day.
However this has now been overturned after a brief but heated debate in the chamber, with the group pledging to abide by the result of the vote.
The motion passed by MSPs noted that Scotland and the UK would remain in the Council of Europe, and said the flag should stay up "as a sign of support and solidarity with those EU nationals who have made Scotland their home".
Leading for the government, External Affairs Secretary Fiona Hyslop said MSPs should "stand firm in solidarity with all the EU citizens who live in Scotland" and keep the flag flying "as a practical demonstration of our regret" about Brexit.
She said ministers did not take the prospect of "directing" the parliamentary authorities lightly, and said "it should not happen regularly" - but said "I do not believe their decision reflects the views of parliament as a whole, and nor do I believe that the decision could be non-political".
Green MSP Ross Greer echoed that point, saying there was "no way to make the binary choice between keeping the European flag up and taking it down without that choice being political".
It's the Council of Europe flag, this came up a few months ago IIRC.
The UK is still a member.
Both true and funny, and they can fly what they like, but come on, as RobD suggests what are the chances anyone flies that flag because it is the Council of Europe (not to be confused with the European Council) flag? As institutions go it's a bit under the radar. If there is reference to EU Nationals at any point that gives the game away, since there'd be no need to be so specific if it was really about the Council.
It's the Council of Europe flag, this came up a few months ago IIRC.
The UK is still a member.
Both true and funny, and they can fly what they like, but come on, as RobD suggests what are the chances anyone flies that flag because it is the Council of Europe (not to be confused with the European Council) flag? As institutions go it's a bit under the radar.
Comments
Tommy's.org has teams of qualified, specialist midwife bereavement counsellors available over the telephone who may be able to offer some support and medical information if that is the kind of thing you feel you need.
They are a charity dealing specifically with this subject.
Edit : They also have peer support groups. You are very much not alone in this.
"Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust said its move was designed to be "inclusive of trans & non-binary birthing people without excluding the language of women or motherhood".
Other changes include using the pronouns they/them where applicable, as well as referring to the "co-parent" or "second biological parent".
It stressed that the changes "do not apply when discussing or caring for individuals in a one-on-one capacity where language and documentation should reflect the gender identity of the individual".
I appreciate your reflections this morning.
And again; we don't know who you are, you don't know who most of us are, but there's a whole fund of positivity, of goodwill, for the two of you here.
https://lgballiance.org.uk/2021/10/14/response-to-the-letter-by-taiwo-owatemi-shadow-secretary-of-state-for-women-and-equalities-in-the-uk/
Having a normal one it seems.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58938198
Can't believe it is much quicker, congestion or no.
@F1
The 2022 #F1 calendar is here! Raising hands
A record-breaking 23 races Sports medal
A brand new grand prix in Miami Purple heart
Australia, Canada, Singapore and Japan all return Ok hand
https://twitter.com/F1/status/1449042599860477952?s=20
@Quincel thanks for a superb post.
Let's just forget the fact the male penises are getting cut off at the age... (12?)
That Grenfell is a negative example of politicised conclusions is unfortunate but was very apparent. In a way the 'voice' of victims being paramount in some eyes can be a hindrance, as they usually know what they think, and want blood out of understandable fury. But for instance when victim groups seem to want to almost veto appointments, even worthy ones, for marginal if even that connections which they treat as proof of bias, it makes an already hard job harder.
This is the stupidest decision by Manchester United since they decided Alex's Sanchez was with half a million pounds a week.
I fear Stonewall has somewhat lost its way after an honourable record. Systemically, public bodies like the BBC and OFCOM paying Stonewall for advice, then working to climb Stonewall's "inclusivity" rankings by demonstrating compliance with Stonewall guidelines should have set alarm bells ringing.
They are not "impartial" - what they argue for may well have merit, but to present it as the law is to mislead, and to undermine the other good work they do.
Additionally their vituperation directed at others in the field of LGB advocacy who do not toe Stonewall's line is short sighted in the extreme. Engage with the argument, if you're so confident of its merits, don't simply name call.
Don't want to come over all Greta, but this sets a truly rank example. If they are worried about the journey, why not set off earlier, or stay overnight?
Football has a social responsibility whether they like it or not.
As I found when I aired a personal issue last year, this forum is a good place to get supportive and genuinely useful comment, with "strangers who are not strangers" who wish you well. It's sometimes easier than consulting people who you run into all the time. Also every sympathy and good fortune to Pulpstar and Mrs P.
So far as I can discern, the age at which applications for gender surgery are 16 in Scotland, 17 in England and 18 in Wales.
But it's separate from terrorism, that's all.
https://youtu.be/VLtnaeIVh2Q
What a nightmare Nippy and Eck have created.
(I'm probably jaundiced having worked on, and given evidence to, various government commissions - never a post-disaster one though).
Excellent article by @Quincel - while part of it reminds me of the old maxim that those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it (and that resonates through so much of who we are and how we act), there is or are also the "black swan" effects for which one can only be so prepared.
There's another old maxim in local Government - "hope for the best and prepare for the worst". From motorway crashes to the unthinkable of a nuclear holocaust, there are plans for everything. Even when the coronavirus struck, plans for dealing with a major epidemic were implemented - groups were hastily convened and temporary mortuaries long in the planning were put together. I'd argue whatever the failings in the political response to coronavirus, the practical response, especially at local Government level, was excellent.
The trickier area is the extent to which our own habits and failings contribute to and exacerbate disaster. These can be organisational (the Herald of Free Enterprise was running to a tight schedule), cultural (what we eat, the availability of unhealthy food) and personal (our health decisions, poor personal hygiene, poor understanding of how germs and viruses spread etc).
It comes back, I think, to public "education" (bring back the old Public Information Films!) but also to organisational and cultural priorities (it isn't all about the bottom line for example).
One thing the coronavirus has thrown into sharp relief is the way we live (or are forced to live). I'd argue it has allowed a lot of people to evaluate or re-evaluate their lives and life choices. "Eat, Sleep, Work, Repeat" as the graffiti tells us manifests to a drone-like existence where we seem nothing more than units of economic production, consumption and re-production.
Indeed, those who opposed the restrictions imposed by Government to try to reduce the spread of the virus couched their arguments in economic terms.
"Is this all there is, is there nothing more?" as someone once asked. There are many who find answers to that question through faith but that's not the only route.
Of which, at one stage there didn't appear to be many good ones.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/service-specification-gender-identity-services-for-adults-surgical-interventions/
Puberty blockers may start earlier, as can hormonal treatment but surgery only from age 17 so far as I can see.
https://twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1449290982395203585?s=20
My thoughts are with his wife, children and friends.
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1449337951612248066?s=20
The suggestion is of a rotten corporate culture, run from the top by MBAs rather than engineers, and where the very senior management actively avoid getting into the details of things like MCAS, so as to absolve them from blame. They will definitely have noticed the $2.5bn fine though, and the reputational damage.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1449313761622380550?s=20
Murdo Fraser
@murdo_fraser
I see that
@lornaslater
has now deleted her racist tweet. This is what a Scottish Govt Minister thought was appropriate:
https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1449339943722102784?s=20
He didn't have anything like the CV you'd normally need for that job at Boeing. I don't think we are getting the full story.
Our flags at @ScotParl are flying at half-mast today as a mark of respect for Sir David Amess MP.
https://twitter.com/ScotParl/status/1449046817262510089?s=20
Debates over Trans issues are not helped by willful misinformation.
A guy next to me has just bought an amazing Chinese artwork for £29,000
#JailSturgeonForSedition
We have enough complaining here about stuff that has happened, just think what we could do here if we all started complaining about stuff that hasn't happened. Poor Boris (change to whatever person you hate) won't stand a chance.
Although, given they're pro restrictions, it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't actually been in a busy public space over the last few months so they don't know that most people are just getting on with it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Europe
Ultimately it seems reasonable you keep victims at the forefront of thoughts, but not that your goal is to grant them peace or justice - that might come, but it might not be possible or even, in some cases, what the facts suggest.
It didn't.
A test department (and in a way, that is what certification is) must have the freedom to push the 'stop' button, even if it causes the organisation money. This is especially true where safety is involved. Instead, all too often, such departments become yes-houses without the ability to stop things significantly. The FAA suffered regulatory capture; several of Boeing's internal departments also seem to have suffered from it.
The 737 Max was a systematic failure; and the people responsible for those systems within Boeing and the FAA are the major culprits. And they're the ones getting away with it.
I don’t think that’s actually what she meant, more likely it was a dig at the meat industry.
It can be a lonely kind of grief, bereaving the void of a person that never was. Made worse because all around you are people who are seemingly able to brush it away: “it’s no big deal and happens to loads of people, don’t worry just try again, chin up, back in the day you weren’t pregnant until you were showing”. Etc… All the while the medical statistics and unknown diagnostic permutations bounce around your head, unspoken but always there. Every pregnancy announcement around you sparking a secret twinge of envy and guilt.
I remember reading quite a bit of Rovelli at the time, about how time doesn’t flow linearly but is a warped canvas that loops in on itself with the planes never quite touching. Often are the times I want to reach across that narrow metaphysical gap and put my hand on the shoulders of the younger me and the younger her. Just to say “if you could see what I could see you’d realise that there’s no need to worry”.
Why don't you go for a ride on your nuns bike or play with your model aircraft rather make snide comments about people who've just been murdered
Man staring at impressive 19th century painting
“Thats’s rather nice.”
Turning to the dealer
“How much is it?”
“That’s 1 point 2 million Sir”
Man:
“Dollars or pounds?”
Dealer:
“Oh, dollars.”
Man:
“Ah. Ok. I’ll take it. Thanks.”
Dealer - utterly impassive -
“Certainly sir. How can we deliver it?”
The most annoying thing about this whole debacle, is that the MCAS isn’t a particularly complicated system, and a pilot briefed on its operation and how to disable it, would likely have not had the two accidents the plane suffered.
'Banksy: New auction record for artist as shredded canvas Love Is In The Bin sells for £18.5m at Sotheby's'
https://tinyurl.com/3undhb3v
The UK is still a member.
The European flag is to continue flying outside the Scottish Parliament beyond Brexit after MSPs voted to keep it up.
Holyrood's management group had planned to lower the flag at 23:00 on Friday, the moment the UK leaves the EU.
However MSPs voted by 63 to 54 to overturn this decision after the Scottish government forced a debate.
Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh warned ministers not to politicise the issue, saying the flags flown at Holyrood "reflect our relationships in law".
The Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems argued that the "non-political" decision of the Parliamentary Corporate Body should be respected, but SNP and Green MSPs united to "direct" the group to keep the flag up.
The Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body (SPCB) - a management group made up of an MSP from each of Holyrood's parties - had made the decision to remove the flag after Brexit, but to fly it each year on Europe Day.
However this has now been overturned after a brief but heated debate in the chamber, with the group pledging to abide by the result of the vote.
The motion passed by MSPs noted that Scotland and the UK would remain in the Council of Europe, and said the flag should stay up "as a sign of support and solidarity with those EU nationals who have made Scotland their home".
Leading for the government, External Affairs Secretary Fiona Hyslop said MSPs should "stand firm in solidarity with all the EU citizens who live in Scotland" and keep the flag flying "as a practical demonstration of our regret" about Brexit.
She said ministers did not take the prospect of "directing" the parliamentary authorities lightly, and said "it should not happen regularly" - but said "I do not believe their decision reflects the views of parliament as a whole, and nor do I believe that the decision could be non-political".
Green MSP Ross Greer echoed that point, saying there was "no way to make the binary choice between keeping the European flag up and taking it down without that choice being political".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51294445