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The betting markets are over-stating Andy Burnham’s chances of succeeding Starmer – politicalbetting

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    Sandpit said:

    Fox killer is at it again...

    Appointment of Peter Cruddas, who donated £500,000 to party after taking seat, is ‘unlawful’, say campaigners

    The Good Law Project – which has brought a series of judicial review cases against the government over the award of contracts during the pandemic – has said it intends to challenge the appointment in the courts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/12/boris-johnson-faces-legal-action-over-peerage-for-billionaire-tory-donor-peter-cruddas

    He brings so many court actions I think they just need to allocate his own court room.

    How long before he’s a vexatious litigant?
    Unlikely, he's won quite a few of these cases.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,443

    MaxPB said:

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.

    Perhaps a Theresa May and Steve Baker dream team. ;)
    Steve Baker loses his seat next time.

    A majority of 4,000 and 8,000 LDs and Greens for Labour to squeeze.

    Hard Brexitism doesn't play well in Wycombe.
    Possibly. Though FWIW, in a hypothetical where he actually becomes that important, the elderly MP for Brexitshire North West could always be offered a peerage and he could be parachuted into the seat - so there are ways and means, of course.
    In the current state of UK politics it would be hard to get me to vote anything other than Tory, but per impossibile Steve Baker as leader of the party would do it.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,228
    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.


    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,905
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    "That did much of the research..."

    Cites, please.
    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”

    ‘“It is clear that some or all of this work was being performed using a biosafety standard — biosafety level 2, the biosafety level of a standard US dentist’s office — that would pose an unacceptably high risk of infection of laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2,” Ebright says.’


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,058

    Andy_JS said:

    Apocalypse for England. 58/5.

    Nah, in my lifetime I've seen England bowled out for 46 and 51.

    I've also seen them lose matches in two days.

    That's apocalyptic.
    Was the pitch as good as this though
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.

    (a) Not a prayer: we don't give AZ to the under 40s. There is a two-in-a-million chance that their brains might melt.
    (b) He will. Probably. On June 21st - 2026.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    I think one difference is that in this country there is one body (the Govt) that takes all the decisions and is all powerful. Even more so now the courts seem powerless to resist in a rapidly developing situation like this (partly a consequence of the unwritten constitution I guess). That comes with advantages and disadvantages.

    Where in most other places there are clear limits to Govt power - whether through the ability to challenge Govt edict on constitutional grounds in the courts, or alternative local power bases to whom the central authority can not dictate.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited June 2021
    The anti-Semitic blimp it out again today....and of course unvaccinated Jezza, no mask, hugging people....

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9679605/Jeremy-Corbyn-joins-smoke-grenade-touting-pro-Palestine-protestors-Downing-Street.html
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Apocalypse for England. 58/5.

    Nah, in my lifetime I've seen England bowled out for 46 and 51.

    I've also seen them lose matches in two days.

    That's apocalyptic.
    Was the pitch as good as this though
    No pitch is 46/51 bad.

    Maybe Sabina Park 1998.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    Pulpstar said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Apocalypse for England. 58/5.

    Nah, in my lifetime I've seen England bowled out for 46 and 51.

    I've also seen them lose matches in two days.

    That's apocalyptic.
    Was the pitch as good as this though
    The 46 and 51 pitches were.

    The two day test was a shocking Indian Bunsen burner.

    The 46 all out was solely down to Hurricane Ambrose.

    We were the best side through out that test match until the final session.

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-west-indies-1993-94-61748/west-indies-vs-england-3rd-test-63639/full-scorecard
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Johnson government will commit to nothing. The irreversible journey is perfectly reversible if it suits.

    Well exactly. And nobody would believe any commitment it ever made to anything, regardless.

    FF43 said:

    ..

    Peston transcript of Johnson interview:

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1403688556674101251?s=20

    He's lashing out. The interviewer called him out for being a liar, which he doesn't like, even though he is one. Probably OK although we can't be sure. The chaos that surrounds him is real enough even if he is false in other ways.
    The quote at 12.21.34 is telling: "you've just got to do whatever it takes to protect life"

    The covid zealots have won. The war is over. We will not learn to live with this, like we do flu (which kills people every winter). We will do whatever it takes to avoid loss of life.

    Whatever it takes.

    Whatever it takes is a biosecurity state with lockdown and social distancing and rules for ever.

    Susan Michie was right.
    And it won't just be Covid. It'll be all respiratory illnesses that they'll seek to permanently suppress. We'll never be rid of these evil masks.
    When the public do turn against the government for what they are doing, as they inevitably will one day, they will turn very hard.

    It'll be 'never again' territory.

    I think Baker and the cleverer Tories know that.
    I reckon the Government will probably get away with all of this. Their elderly support base loves lockdowns, and the Opposition are absolutely useless and show no sign of having either the willingness or ability to improve.

    This could be Japan, you know. We could have one party rule for many decades.
    Based on here, the vitriol for delaying step 4 of the roadmap is mainly coming from right wing Leavers. It appears they have discovered that Boris Johnson is incompetent and untrustworthy, as is the government he leads. It remains to be seen how such people will react electorally. Perhaps they will abstain. Perhaps they will defect to Labour if Starmer can be replaced as leader by a Peter Bone type. Or perhaps they will still vote Tory.
    I am a leaver. I do not identify as right wing. I have never voted Tory and cannot imagine I ever will.
    The conflating of leavers with what you believe is right wing tories who are just uncovering the reality of the PM is just one of the reasons the remainers failed so dismally both in the referendum and beyond.
    That's unfair on me. I'm going on a high volume of actual posts on here from prolific actual posters who ARE right wing leavers. Going that way. I'm not looking at the sentiment and then assuming that that sentiment = right wing leaver.
    If I have been unkind to you I apologise but I am sick of the Leaver=Tory equation.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.


    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?

    You asked @MaxPB but, butting in, a lot may depend on the 1922 election - see Guido for details. I think it will be the Northern 2019 uptake that will lead the charge to get rid of Boris if he is seen to dither on the 21st and their constituents go ballistic.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    "That did much of the research..."

    Cites, please.
    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”

    ‘“It is clear that some or all of this work was being performed using a biosafety standard — biosafety level 2, the biosafety level of a standard US dentist’s office — that would pose an unacceptably high risk of infection of laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2,” Ebright says.’


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
    The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists is a pretty odd publication - regularly running very anti nuclear power articles, for example.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    So James Bracey ends his test career with an average of 2.67.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455
    This Test finishes tonight, one way or the other.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    End of Bracey Test career.....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,142
    Sandpit said:

    This Test finishes tonight, one way or the other.

    Warwickshire not happy with a loss of the Sunday crowd.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    What do you expect from an organisation founded by people who attended the dump?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    edited June 2021

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Johnson government will commit to nothing. The irreversible journey is perfectly reversible if it suits.

    Well exactly. And nobody would believe any commitment it ever made to anything, regardless.

    FF43 said:

    ..

    Peston transcript of Johnson interview:

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1403688556674101251?s=20

    He's lashing out. The interviewer called him out for being a liar, which he doesn't like, even though he is one. Probably OK although we can't be sure. The chaos that surrounds him is real enough even if he is false in other ways.
    The quote at 12.21.34 is telling: "you've just got to do whatever it takes to protect life"

    The covid zealots have won. The war is over. We will not learn to live with this, like we do flu (which kills people every winter). We will do whatever it takes to avoid loss of life.

    Whatever it takes.

    Whatever it takes is a biosecurity state with lockdown and social distancing and rules for ever.

    Susan Michie was right.
    And it won't just be Covid. It'll be all respiratory illnesses that they'll seek to permanently suppress. We'll never be rid of these evil masks.
    When the public do turn against the government for what they are doing, as they inevitably will one day, they will turn very hard.

    It'll be 'never again' territory.

    I think Baker and the cleverer Tories know that.
    I reckon the Government will probably get away with all of this. Their elderly support base loves lockdowns, and the Opposition are absolutely useless and show no sign of having either the willingness or ability to improve.

    This could be Japan, you know. We could have one party rule for many decades.
    Based on here, the vitriol for delaying step 4 of the roadmap is mainly coming from right wing Leavers. It appears they have discovered that Boris Johnson is incompetent and untrustworthy, as is the government he leads. It remains to be seen how such people will react electorally. Perhaps they will abstain. Perhaps they will defect to Labour if Starmer can be replaced as leader by a Peter Bone type. Or perhaps they will still vote Tory.
    I am a leaver. I do not identify as right wing. I have never voted Tory and cannot imagine I ever will.
    The conflating of leavers with what you believe is right wing tories who are just uncovering the reality of the PM is just one of the reasons the remainers failed so dismally both in the referendum and beyond.
    That's unfair on me. I'm going on a high volume of actual posts on here from prolific actual posters who ARE right wing leavers. Going that way. I'm not looking at the sentiment and then assuming that that sentiment = right wing leaver.
    If I have been unkind to you I apologise but I am sick of the Leaver=Tory equation.
    Fair enough. It's understandable you're sick of it if you're a Leaver who did NOT vote Tory at GE19. However it was the Brexit election, and it was won by the Leave vote consolidating behind the Tories, so you're bound to get some linking of the 2 things. But I'll remember it doesn't apply in your case. :smile:
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MrEd said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.


    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?

    You asked @MaxPB but, butting in, a lot may depend on the 1922 election - see Guido for details. I think it will be the Northern 2019 uptake that will lead the charge to get rid of Boris if he is seen to dither on the 21st and their constituents go ballistic.
    Why would the MPs move against a PM who is thirteen points up in the polls?

    The MPs will not move until the polls move against Johnson, and/or there are by-election or local election results showing other parties gaining.

    If Reform got 5,000 in C&A, for example, that would concentrate a lot of minds. They won't, sadly.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,663
    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    This Test finishes tonight, one way or the other.

    Warwickshire not happy with a loss of the Sunday crowd.
    Good, they absolutely have a financial advantage given how they pretty much host all t20 finals days.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited June 2021
    The thing that strikes me about so many of the wickets, just how technically poor the batsman look...on a flattish pitch in home conditions. This isn't like they are in India and having to face conditions they are unaccustomed to.

    I know Sibley got a score in the first innings, but with him it always just looks like a matter of time they get it in the right spot and his technical is so flawed he can't help but edge it.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,228
    MrEd said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.


    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?

    You asked @MaxPB but, butting in, a lot may depend on the 1922 election - see Guido for details. I think it will be the Northern 2019 uptake that will lead the charge to get rid of Boris if he is seen to dither on the 21st and their constituents go ballistic.
    "But" away. I'm genuinely interested to see what everyone thinks.

    I mean it seems bizarre to think that after winning an 80 seat majority 18 months ago the Tories might move again Boris but on the other hand I can't see them letting lockdown go on much longer either...

    I think because of the goodwill he has within the party for winning the biggest Conservative majority since 1987 he will get away with delaying from 21st June to 19th July but if he doesn't fully unlock on 19th July all bets are off would be my best guess.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439

    The thing that strikes me about so many of the wickets, just how technically poor the batsman look...on a flattish pitch at home conditions. This isn't like they are in India and having to face conditions they are unaccustomed to.

    This is the t20 generation.

    Technique for the longer form game has gone, and who can blame them when the IPL/franchise cricket allows them to earn so much.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    Reminder: none of this would help because vaccines are less than 100% effective and therefore, in the eyes of the catastrophist scientists and the random number modellers, completely useless.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    .
    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    I watched England back in the 80s.
    Have I not suffered enough ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    "That did much of the research..."

    Cites, please.
    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”

    ‘“It is clear that some or all of this work was being performed using a biosafety standard — biosafety level 2, the biosafety level of a standard US dentist’s office — that would pose an unacceptably high risk of infection of laboratory staff upon contact with a virus having the transmission properties of SARS-CoV-2,” Ebright says.’


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
    The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists is a pretty odd publication - regularly running very anti nuclear power articles, for example.
    Jesus Christ Robert, you don’t read anything, do you? You know zero about this. Honestly. It’s a bit embarrassing

    It is now widely accepted that the major scientific journals - Nature, Lancet, Scientific American - are deeply compromised on this subject. They accept fraudulent letters denouncing ‘lab leak’ organised by Peter Wuhan Daszak, which declare ‘no conflict of interest’ - a total lie. Yet they refuse to publish contradictory research which investigates lab leak, this has been happening since early 2020

    https://unherd.com/2021/06/beijings-useful-idiots/


    Wade had no choice about where he published. No way Lancet would take it. So he went there, with his seminal article, which had entirely changed the global debate
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    darkage said:

    Alistair said:

    This sounds like a classic Guardian, biased by omission.....you don't get 5 years in prison for just nicking a mobile phone.

    Osime Brown was jailed for stealing a friend’s mobile phone, a crime that he and others say he did not commit. He was sentenced to five years for robbery, attempted robbery and perverting the course of justice.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/12/protesters-in-london-and-glasgow-call-for-halt-to-osime-brown-deportation

    He was jailed for 5 years for stealing a mobile phone and perverting the course of justice, which was based on sending a Facebook message which said "stop lying".

    Everyone, including the prosecution, agree he didn't steal the phone but he was convicted under joint enterprise.

    I'm not familiar with the details of the case but this one looks a stinker.
    You don't get 5 years for just that. It doesn't pass the smell test. And his codefendants got no jail time. There is clearly more to it.
    The guy has lived here lawfully since he was 4, so he should not be deported under absolutely any circumstances. He should be regarded as a citizen due to the amount of time that has passed. If he got 5 years in jail, which sounds unbelievable on the face of it given the apparent crime then he has served his time and that should be the end of that. There really is no need to fish around for vague complexities particular to this case that might justify what is going on.

    As I have kept saying, the fact the Home office keep doing this is evidence that it is structurally racist: picking on poor black people and banishing them from the country. Everyone involved, from the home secretary down should just hang their heads in shame. They've learned nothing at all since Windrush. Sending a disabled, autistic young man to Jamaica with no family support is tantamount to a death sentence. In my view, it is no different to George Floyd from being murdered by the police.
    That wasn't my point. I wasn't debating if he should be deported or not, I was pointing out that it struck me as a classic example of Guardian bias by omission.

    There is no way, 3 people got charged with robbing a phone. 2 got no jail time who stole the phone, and the one who is a good little boy and whose only offense is claimed he sent a facebook message saying "stop lying" and is claimed he didn't even do any of the robbing, got 5 years...5 years...not 5 months for perverting the course of justice...5 years....and he is supposed to have a disability as well. Nah not buying it.

    5 years in jail you have to have serious stuff against you.

    If that was true, that would be up there with one of the biggest miscarriages of justice ever. And yet after appeals etc etc etc, even the campaigners who want him to stay aren't making hay about the 5 year jail sentence. They are instead saying not fair to deport him.
    There must be a record of the case, can you find out what the secret evil crime he did was then?

    And as far as I can tell people e have been campaigning on this from the moment he was convicted.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    I watched England back in the 80s.
    Have I not suffered enough ?
    That's between you and your priest, but if you've been watching them for that long this might actually be your purgatory.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455

    The thing that strikes me about so many of the wickets, just how technically poor the batsman look...on a flattish pitch at home conditions. This isn't like they are in India and having to face conditions they are unaccustomed to.

    This is the t20 generation.

    Technique for the longer form game has gone, and who can blame them when the IPL/franchise cricket allows them to earn so much.
    Yep, it’s difficult to spend time training for Test cricket, when the short game has such massive rewards in IPL.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    These Finns have got some proper Finnish names in their team/squad.

    Daniel O'Shaughnessy and Robert Taylor.

    Pretty much unpronounceable to English mouths.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    GIN1138 said:

    MrEd said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.

    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?
    You asked @MaxPB but, butting in, a lot may depend on the 1922 election - see Guido for details. I think it will be the Northern 2019 uptake that will lead the charge to get rid of Boris if he is seen to dither on the 21st and their constituents go ballistic.
    "But" away. I'm genuinely interested to see what everyone thinks.

    I mean it seems bizarre to think that after winning an 80 seat majority 18 months ago the Tories might move again Boris but on the other hand I can't see them letting lockdown go on much longer either...

    I think because of the goodwill he has within the party for winning the biggest Conservative majority since 1987 he will get away with delaying from 21st June to 19th July but if he doesn't fully unlock on 19th July all bets are off would be my best guess.
    Rolling restrictions will prove wildly popular with the over-85s, so the MPs will do nothing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,790
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    The other option would be to use half doses of Pfizer or Moderna. In the original trials, they looked almost as effective in eliciting antibody response.
    They should certainly run larger trials with such dosages where the pandemic is at its hottest, as if they were to confirm effectiveness it would massively speed up the rate at which the rest of the world could be vaccinated.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    I watched England back in the 80s.
    Have I not suffered enough ?
    The summer of four captains would have driven me mad.

    I mean picking as captain the godson of the Chairman of Selectors was *interesting*.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    I watched England back in the 80s.
    Have I not suffered enough ?
    The summer of four captains would have driven me mad.

    I mean picking as captain the godson of the Chairman of Selectors was *interesting*.
    Summer of Four Captains? As memorable as the Year of Four Emperors no doubt.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,455
    So the bowler is now the groundsman...
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    Alistair said:

    Disney World in Florida still requires masks.

    In fact Disney World was specifically exempted from the sate law banning mandatory mask wearing.

    Ahah - it just removed the rule to wear them
    Inside. Had recently got rid of outside.

    America is powering ahead with reopening and we’re just .. well
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,420
    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    Looks like my ticket for tomorrow might be refunded.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    edited June 2021
    Alistair said:

    darkage said:

    Alistair said:

    This sounds like a classic Guardian, biased by omission.....you don't get 5 years in prison for just nicking a mobile phone.

    Osime Brown was jailed for stealing a friend’s mobile phone, a crime that he and others say he did not commit. He was sentenced to five years for robbery, attempted robbery and perverting the course of justice.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/12/protesters-in-london-and-glasgow-call-for-halt-to-osime-brown-deportation

    He was jailed for 5 years for stealing a mobile phone and perverting the course of justice, which was based on sending a Facebook message which said "stop lying".

    Everyone, including the prosecution, agree he didn't steal the phone but he was convicted under joint enterprise.

    I'm not familiar with the details of the case but this one looks a stinker.
    You don't get 5 years for just that. It doesn't pass the smell test. And his codefendants got no jail time. There is clearly more to it.
    The guy has lived here lawfully since he was 4, so he should not be deported under absolutely any circumstances. He should be regarded as a citizen due to the amount of time that has passed. If he got 5 years in jail, which sounds unbelievable on the face of it given the apparent crime then he has served his time and that should be the end of that. There really is no need to fish around for vague complexities particular to this case that might justify what is going on.

    As I have kept saying, the fact the Home office keep doing this is evidence that it is structurally racist: picking on poor black people and banishing them from the country. Everyone involved, from the home secretary down should just hang their heads in shame. They've learned nothing at all since Windrush. Sending a disabled, autistic young man to Jamaica with no family support is tantamount to a death sentence. In my view, it is no different to George Floyd from being murdered by the police.
    That wasn't my point. I wasn't debating if he should be deported or not, I was pointing out that it struck me as a classic example of Guardian bias by omission.

    There is no way, 3 people got charged with robbing a phone. 2 got no jail time who stole the phone, and the one who is a good little boy and whose only offense is claimed he sent a facebook message saying "stop lying" and is claimed he didn't even do any of the robbing, got 5 years...5 years...not 5 months for perverting the course of justice...5 years....and he is supposed to have a disability as well. Nah not buying it.

    5 years in jail you have to have serious stuff against you.

    If that was true, that would be up there with one of the biggest miscarriages of justice ever. And yet after appeals etc etc etc, even the campaigners who want him to stay aren't making hay about the 5 year jail sentence. They are instead saying not fair to deport him.
    There must be a record of the case, can you find out what the secret evil crime he did was then?

    And as far as I can tell people e have been campaigning on this from the moment he was convicted.
    He was a juvenile, so hard to find out...but...

    According to The Voice, he has committed a series of offences which culminated in a sentence of five years in a Young Offender Institution for this crime.

    That suggests no a one off being in the wrong place at wrong time.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    The CCDC administers a number of laboratories across China, including the biosafety level 2 facility at the Wuhan Center for Disease Control (sometimes confused with the nearby Wuhan Institute of Virology),[5]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Center_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,663
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    The other option would be to use half doses of Pfizer or Moderna. In the original trials, they looked almost as effective in eliciting antibody response.
    They should certainly run larger trials with such dosages where the pandemic is at its hottest, as if they were to confirm effectiveness it would massively speed up the rate at which the rest of the world could be vaccinated.
    Tbh, I'd be happy with that. It would allow everyone to be covered faster and we could do a sweep up of booster doses in August once the new supply deal comes online. We're currently doing about 1.7m Pfizer/Moderna doses per week as that's the supply, if we could double that figure for first doses and get coverage up to a baseline level it would make a lot of sense.

    I'd take anything right now. One of the issues with releasing AZ is that it locks under 30s into an 8 week cycle and most of them don't want to wait 8 weeks for their second dose. Novavax looks like a better bet to me than AZ and we could approve it tomorrow then get the first doses in arms about 20 days from now after certification of the first finished batch completes. I think it's a very small risk and if these numbers were available in January Novavax would have been granted an emergency use authorisation just as Pfizer were with a similar amount of efficacy data. AZ had even less and got one.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,420
    Root goes. 76/7.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,001

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    Reminder: none of this would help because vaccines are less than 100% effective and therefore, in the eyes of the catastrophist scientists and the random number modellers, completely useless.
    In all seriousness, the overwhelming majority of the concern is the spread amongst the pre-vaccinated.
    Get them dosed, and the spread collapses.

    A decent guesstimate would be that every 3-4 million doses will knock 0.1 off the R rate if it's around 1.5 at the moment.
    We're doing that every week right now; Max's proposal would supercharge that to nearly 0.2 per week. Whilst gradually pressing down on the cases-to-hospitalisations ratio.

    We'd be there three weeks from today, even with Delta. That would certainly give us the July 5th opening at a minimum and might embolden Johnson to go for the 21st of June, anyway.

    Frankly, at the very least, the Government should be offering any administrative and managerial help to Novavax to square away the submission that they can.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,285

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    Reminder: none of this would help because vaccines are less than 100% effective and therefore, in the eyes of the catastrophist scientists and the random number modellers, completely useless.
    How many vaccines are 100% effective.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    kle4 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    I watched England back in the 80s.
    Have I not suffered enough ?
    The summer of four captains would have driven me mad.

    I mean picking as captain the godson of the Chairman of Selectors was *interesting*.
    Summer of Four Captains? As memorable as the Year of Four Emperors no doubt.
    Even more so.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/that-1980s-sports-blog/2020/jul/23/when-england-four-captains-4-0-defeat-west-indies-1988-cricket
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,420
    Flat pitch. Sunny weather. No excuse for this performance.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    Blimey.
    Root can't play the anchor role.
    Minus 9 for 7 and Wood coming in.
    Win the toss and bat on a beautiful surface. Make 300 and lose in 3 days.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited June 2021

    Alistair said:

    Disney World in Florida still requires masks.

    In fact Disney World was specifically exempted from the sate law banning mandatory mask wearing.

    Ahah - it just removed the rule to wear them
    Inside. Had recently got rid of outside.

    America is powering ahead with reopening and we’re just .. well
    More mainly Trump states with GOP governors are restriction free now, the Biden states still tend to have some restrictions and mask mandates though even they are more open than we are at the moment
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    The other option would be to use half doses of Pfizer or Moderna. In the original trials, they looked almost as effective in eliciting antibody response.
    They should certainly run larger trials with such dosages where the pandemic is at its hottest, as if they were to confirm effectiveness it would massively speed up the rate at which the rest of the world could be vaccinated.
    That was AZ, wasn’t it? Caused by an error in one of the trials.

    Anyway I still think that vaccines (and the link to rising case numbers) aren’t the issue. They are the excuse, allowing the scientists to produce new models on the grounds that “things have changed”. The scientists haven’t produced a single original model throughout this whole pandemic. They ALWAYS show basically the same thing. I suspect that every model Ferguson has ever produced shows the same thing. A range of scenarios ranging from the extremely benign to the very scary. And the Govt being encouraged to take a cautious approach on the basis of the scary ones. And because there’s a range of scenarios they can never be accused of getting it wrong. Because they always make sure that the inputs are things of which they are uncertain.
  • andypetukandypetuk Posts: 69
    Sandpit said:

    The thing that strikes me about so many of the wickets, just how technically poor the batsman look...on a flattish pitch at home conditions. This isn't like they are in India and having to face conditions they are unaccustomed to.

    This is the t20 generation.

    Technique for the longer form game has gone, and who can blame them when the IPL/franchise cricket allows them to earn so much.
    Yep, it’s difficult to spend time training for Test cricket, when the short game has such massive rewards in IPL.
    None of this lot have been near the IPL. They’ve all been playing 4 day cricket for the last two months.

    It’s the absence of the IPL players that means we have this shower.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.


    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?
    Depends what happens in the polls and on Thursday, if there is not much leakage to ReformUK than Boris is fine.

    If Boris' announcement cancelling Freedom Day proves as disastrous as May's announcement cancelling Brexit in Spring 2019 was to Tory prospects and there is again Tory leakage to Farage and Tice then he will have a problem
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Disney World in Florida still requires masks.

    In fact Disney World was specifically exempted from the sate law banning mandatory mask wearing.

    Ahah - it just removed the rule to wear them
    Inside. Had recently got rid of outside.

    America is powering ahead with reopening and we’re just .. well
    More manly Trump states with GOP governors are restriction free now, the Biden states still tend to have some restrictions and mask mandates though even they are more open than we are at the moment
    Are these "manly" States ready for the Indian variant with less than 50% vaccinated in some?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    Reminder: none of this would help because vaccines are less than 100% effective and therefore, in the eyes of the catastrophist scientists and the random number modellers, completely useless.
    How many vaccines are 100% effective.
    None, obviously. The point being that there's always an excuse to ignore anything positive that's happening and catastrophise.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,781
    Just embarrassing from England.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    edited June 2021
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Disney World in Florida still requires masks.

    In fact Disney World was specifically exempted from the sate law banning mandatory mask wearing.

    Ahah - it just removed the rule to wear them
    Inside. Had recently got rid of outside.

    America is powering ahead with reopening and we’re just .. well
    More manly Trump states with GOP governors are restriction free now, the Biden states still tend to have some restrictions and mask mandates though even they are more open than we are at the moment
    Are these "manly" States ready for the Indian variant with less than 50% vaccinated in some?
    It would seem so, Trump voters tend to be anti Vaxxers too
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,376
    126 is the lowest score at home v NZ.
    Not for long I'd wager.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Disney World in Florida still requires masks.

    In fact Disney World was specifically exempted from the sate law banning mandatory mask wearing.

    Ahah - it just removed the rule to wear them
    Inside. Had recently got rid of outside.

    America is powering ahead with reopening and we’re just .. well
    More manly Trump states with GOP governors are restriction free now, the Biden states still tend to have some restrictions and mask mandates though even they are more open than we are at the moment
    By the end of this week, even California will be (largely) restriction free. The US has basically reopened in every state.

    The places that probably do need to worry are in the Deep South, where Delta is starting (from a very low base) to hit places with low levels of vaccine uptake.
  • Sandpit said:

    The thing that strikes me about so many of the wickets, just how technically poor the batsman look...on a flattish pitch at home conditions. This isn't like they are in India and having to face conditions they are unaccustomed to.

    This is the t20 generation.

    Technique for the longer form game has gone, and who can blame them when the IPL/franchise cricket allows them to earn so much.
    Yep, it’s difficult to spend time training for Test cricket, when the short game has such massive rewards in IPL.
    Never had any interest in short form. I find it really dull. It’s like 5-a-side football to me.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    MrEd said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.


    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?

    You asked @MaxPB but, butting in, a lot may depend on the 1922 election - see Guido for details. I think it will be the Northern 2019 uptake that will lead the charge to get rid of Boris if he is seen to dither on the 21st and their constituents go ballistic.
    They would be stupid to do so.

    Boris’s replacement is almost certain to ditch the “levelling up” commitments.

    Well, I’m sure they’ll pay lip service to it, but the funding will evaporate.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,420
    Is Boris Johnson a cricket fan? I don't think so, I've never seen him at a match or talk about the game.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,872
    edited June 2021
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    I watched England back in the 80s.
    Have I not suffered enough ?
    Are they even going to reach the 80s?

    Edit: just!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    WTF has happened to the Danish footballer?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    Looks like another Fabrice Muamba?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    WTF has happened to the Danish footballer?

    This looks very very bad
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    A short while ago a plane took off from LBA. I thought I'd take a look to see where it was going - Ryanair to Faro.

    Are they taking the bloody piss?

    Earlier today Wor Lass took part in some sort of 'World Outdoor Knitting Day' event. No, I'd not heard of it either.

    I'm wondering what is left to leak to the Sunday papers. I suppose in recent days the stories have gone 'two weeks', 'two to four weeks', 'four weeks', so perhaps we are due 'at least four weeks'?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Bloody awful watching the football
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,142

    Looks like another Fabrice Muamba?

    Not good :(
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    Yeah he's having his chested pumped.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,246
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Disney World in Florida still requires masks.

    In fact Disney World was specifically exempted from the sate law banning mandatory mask wearing.

    Ahah - it just removed the rule to wear them
    Inside. Had recently got rid of outside.

    America is powering ahead with reopening and we’re just .. well
    More manly Trump states with GOP governors are restriction free now, the Biden states still tend to have some restrictions and mask mandates though even they are more open than we are at the moment
    By the end of this week, even California will be (largely) restriction free. The US has basically reopened in every state.

    The places that probably do need to worry are in the Deep South, where Delta is starting (from a very low base) to hit places with low levels of vaccine uptake.
    California is well behind UK in vaccination. If it hits here hard, it's going to hit California even harder.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,420
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Sandpit said:

    The innings defeat is still on.

    I watched England back in the 80s.
    Have I not suffered enough ?
    Wasn't it the 90s when England lost most of their matches? I thought the 80s wasn't too bad.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,420
    "The medical staff appear to be performing CPR on Christian Eriksen."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/50940600
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,285
    Andy_JS said:

    "The medical staff appear to be performing CPR on Christian Eriksen."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/50940600

    It’s awful. We are in tears here.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology,

    One of these is

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    I’m off for a walk in the park. I just want to tot up your score-sheet today. It’s quite impressive

    I posted a map/photo positing the idea that there was a lower level Wuhan lab much nearer the market

    Your reaction was this:

    You said it was probably Croydon: it isn’t

    You denied it was Wuhan: it is

    You said it wasn’t the wet market: yet it is

    You said it was a seafood market: they’re the same

    You said ten seconds of research would prove me wrong: ten seconds proved me right

    You thought I was talking about the Wuhan Institute of Virology: I wasn’t

    You thought there was only one lab in Wuhan: there’s more

    You had no idea why Wade would publish in the Bulletin: do some reading

    You said the Wuhan CDC does not exist: it does

    You said that the other red circle was not a Chinese lab: Chinese Google says it is


    My work, for this afternoon, is done
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Taz said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    Reminder: none of this would help because vaccines are less than 100% effective and therefore, in the eyes of the catastrophist scientists and the random number modellers, completely useless.
    How many vaccines are 100% effective.
    None, obviously. The point being that there's always an excuse to ignore anything positive that's happening and catastrophise.
    Some, obviously. Smallpox vaccine frinstance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,575
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Disney World in Florida still requires masks.

    In fact Disney World was specifically exempted from the sate law banning mandatory mask wearing.

    Ahah - it just removed the rule to wear them
    Inside. Had recently got rid of outside.

    America is powering ahead with reopening and we’re just .. well
    More manly Trump states with GOP governors are restriction free now, the Biden states still tend to have some restrictions and mask mandates though even they are more open than we are at the moment
    By the end of this week, even California will be (largely) restriction free. The US has basically reopened in every state.

    The places that probably do need to worry are in the Deep South, where Delta is starting (from a very low base) to hit places with low levels of vaccine uptake.
    It hasn't.

    I make it 22 out of 25 Trump voting states have fully reopened but only 9 out of 25 Biden voting states have fully reopened and neither has DC either

    https://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-2020/coronavirus-state-restrictions.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,905
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
    Lol. Fair play for admitting it!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,735
    darkage said:

    Alistair said:

    This sounds like a classic Guardian, biased by omission.....you don't get 5 years in prison for just nicking a mobile phone.

    Osime Brown was jailed for stealing a friend’s mobile phone, a crime that he and others say he did not commit. He was sentenced to five years for robbery, attempted robbery and perverting the course of justice.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/12/protesters-in-london-and-glasgow-call-for-halt-to-osime-brown-deportation

    He was jailed for 5 years for stealing a mobile phone and perverting the course of justice, which was based on sending a Facebook message which said "stop lying".

    Everyone, including the prosecution, agree he didn't steal the phone but he was convicted under joint enterprise.

    I'm not familiar with the details of the case but this one looks a stinker.
    You don't get 5 years for just that. It doesn't pass the smell test. And his codefendants got no jail time. There is clearly more to it.
    The guy has lived here lawfully since he was 4, so he should not be deported under absolutely any circumstances. He should be regarded as a citizen due to the amount of time that has passed. If he got 5 years in jail, which sounds unbelievable on the face of it given the apparent crime then he has served his time and that should be the end of that. There really is no need to fish around for vague complexities particular to this case that might justify what is going on.

    As I have kept saying, the fact the Home office keep doing this is evidence that it is structurally racist: picking on poor black people and banishing them from the country. Everyone involved, from the home secretary down should just hang their heads in shame. They've learned nothing at all since Windrush. Sending a disabled, autistic young man to Jamaica with no family support is tantamount to a death sentence. In my view, it is no different to George Floyd from being murdered by the police.
    These cases make me ashamed to be British.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,285
    tlg86 said:

    Looks like another Fabrice Muamba?

    Not good :(
    Fabrice did survive though, so hopefully he will.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    Andy_JS said:

    Is Boris Johnson a cricket fan? I don't think so, I've never seen him at a match or talk about the game.

    Boris Johnson’s decision to play cricket day after Brexit victory cost him chance to be PM, reveals book on the secrets of Tory bust-up

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1684920/boris-johnsons-decision-to-play-cricket-day-after-brexit-victory-cost-him-chance-to-be-pm-reveals-book-on-the-secrets-of-tory-bust-up/
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,228
    Andy_JS said:

    "The medical staff appear to be performing CPR on Christian Eriksen."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/football/50940600

    Gosh how awful!
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,027
    This is heartbreaking
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    As the Delta variant of the coronavirus spreads in southeastern China, doctors say they are finding that the symptoms are different and more dangerous than those they saw when the the virus started spreading in late 2019 in Wuhan.

    https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1403726322967400454?s=20
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    The BBC are a disgrace for showing that. They should have cut back to the studio immediately. I couldn’t watch that, was ghoulish.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Andy_JS said:

    Is Boris Johnson a cricket fan? I don't think so, I've never seen him at a match or talk about the game.

    Boris Johnson’s decision to play cricket day after Brexit victory cost him chance to be PM, reveals book on the secrets of Tory bust-up

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1684920/boris-johnsons-decision-to-play-cricket-day-after-brexit-victory-cost-him-chance-to-be-pm-reveals-book-on-the-secrets-of-tory-bust-up/
    He was at a game at the oval, I remember the booing when he appeared on the screen.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    alex_ said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    The other option would be to use half doses of Pfizer or Moderna. In the original trials, they looked almost as effective in eliciting antibody response.
    They should certainly run larger trials with such dosages where the pandemic is at its hottest, as if they were to confirm effectiveness it would massively speed up the rate at which the rest of the world could be vaccinated.
    That was AZ, wasn’t it? Caused by an error in one of the trials.

    Anyway I still think that vaccines (and the link to rising case numbers) aren’t the issue. They are the excuse, allowing the scientists to produce new models on the grounds that “things have changed”. The scientists haven’t produced a single original model throughout this whole pandemic. They ALWAYS show basically the same thing. I suspect that every model Ferguson has ever produced shows the same thing. A range of scenarios ranging from the extremely benign to the very scary. And the Govt being encouraged to take a cautious approach on the basis of the scary ones. And because there’s a range of scenarios they can never be accused of getting it wrong. Because they always make sure that the inputs are things of which they are uncertain.
    Ferguson failed to get F&M, BSE or swine flu right, and predicted 90,000 deaths in Sweden by July 2020 with no lockdown. There were ~8,000.

    No lockdown was standard worldwide public health policy for >100 years and was in the UK 2011 pandemic plan. It was still the UK policy in Febrary 2020 and would have been the least bad way to deal with SARS-CoV-2.

    Maybe this is why we got lockdowns, aka the most stupid public health policy in my lifetime

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/how-fanatics-took-over-world
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    I feel sick - the cameras even looked for angles to get christian's face as he was lying face down...

    Awful awful scenes.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,142
    Brom said:

    The BBC are a disgrace for showing that. They should have cut back to the studio immediately. I couldn’t watch that, was ghoulish.

    To be honest, anyone is free to turn off.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439

    alex_ said:

    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    And now this. The dominant narrative will now be: "he screwed up, and we ended up with an extra four weeks of restrictions and a third wave. back in lockdown for eight months."

    Fixed it for you.

    I mean come on, we know it's coming. The catastrophist wing of the scientist lobby are going to completely take over now.
    You've been trumpeting disaster since week bloody one. The vaccines won't work. We'll be locked down forever. We'll all get reinfected. There's no way out.

    All you ever bloody do is insist it's going to be an utter disaster, ignore every single step back or better off, and insist that everything will be horrible.

    Of course we're not going to be sodding locked down for eight months. We're not locked down now. We've got restrictions, about equivalent to Tier One from last year, and the big discussion is whether they should be retained for four weeks.

    We're not hurriedly closing the schools, closing all restaurants and pubs, banning travel outside the house.

    I'm starting to think you actually get disappointed when disaster doesn't happen.
    That’s unfair

    For a long time Black Rook has been full of sunny optimism (too much, perhaps)

    I suspect he/she is a tad bipolar and is now on the downslope of a mood shift. Have a little sympathy. We are all stressed by this ever receding day of freedom. Black Rook also has a point, when members of official SAGE talk about ‘keeping masks and social distancing forever’ it is only right to be alarmed about the future. Some top scientists really do want perpetual controls on society
    You're right. I did catch myself and apologise; I was out of order to snap at Black_Rook.
    Everyone is anxious. And bloody angry at the government for landing us in this

    We must all be nice to each other, for a bit, if we can. Or we can try, anyway
    You're going to be nice to me for a change then, are you?
    I don't think Susan Michie is a scientist but a behavioural psychologist, probably also one of the people Private Eye called 'the Marxist-Leninist aristocracy'.

    Vote Conservative, get Communist?
    The conservatives gave people like Michie power over ordinary Brits, something no conservative government would have ever dreamt of doing in the past under any circumstances.

    It is one of the things I hope to hold them responsible for one day.

    The modern 'conservative' party is the biggest exercise in political charlatanism in my life time bar none. They put criminals who misrepresent themselves to shame.

    A junior minister astonishingly claimed he was a 'libertarian conservative' the other day on Talk radio with a straight face. Right up there with some burglar pretending to be the gas man to get into some old person's home.
    Susan Michie is a member of Independent Sage, the go to group for the media to attack and undermine the government

    The conservatives did not give her a mouthpiece, that was our media
    Sorry but Michie is a member of SAGE not independent SAGE.
    She’s a member of both.

    https://www.independentsage.org/who-are-independent-sage/

    As for the rest of your post, link please, given your track record.

    Merely because our scientists have been abject doesn’t mean anyone’s going to trust an anti-vaxxer.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/14/scientists-admit-totalitarian-use-fear-control-behaviour-covid/

    Well there is the report on scientists apology....
    Which is not a report on SAGE, but on a different committee. And while disturbing, therefore doesn’t support your claim.

    The reality is, of course, that the problem here is those people who have refused to be vaccinated. They are the ones driving hospital admissions and deaths.

    So no, I don’t blame the government, although I think they are bloody fools and the world would be a happier place if they would all jump in a lake. I do to a degree blame SAGE, who appear to have no common sense, Indie SAGE, who are clearly self-important windbags, or the NHS bosses.

    But to the greatest extent I blame you. You are restricting my freedom. You are putting my life on hold. You are making me stagger under intolerable and otherwise unnecessary burdens at work trying to provide an education to children, which is hard work at the best of times.

    And at the same time you are a hypocrite who lectures me on ‘giving up my freedoms.’ That’s what sets you apart from say, Dura Ace who has never lectured me on any part of my lifestyle.

    You are a thousand times worse than Susan Michie. But you have neither the courage nor the ability to see that.

    Sad, but there we are. It would be your problem in normal times, but it’s infuriating that you inflict it on the rest of us too.

    And now I really am off for the afternoon. Have a good one.
    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.
    A great post and thank you.

    Here's the thing. It is not surprising the UK does not want to be free when the government is not showing voters the whole story. Gargantuan debts, furlough and money printing are hiding the hugely destructive effects of restrictions. Right now voters think there is no hit to take.

    Johnson goes on ad nauseam about 'caution' but there is absolutely nothing cautious about what he is doing. The UK is engaged in massive and reckless gamble with the country's economy in the near and medium term future. A gamble that could break us for decades.

    It was a big gamble when we were all involved in it. Now that some Western countries are deciding to live with covid, its an insane policy. Insane. Investors will soon start to differentiate between the covid brave and the covid cowards.

    Those governments in thrall to scientists who will never take a hit could be severely punished.

    The flip side is that those who are first movers will benefit mightily
    It's funny isn't it: if Covid had been a hypothetical and you'd asked me about Germany vs the UK and how our governments would react, I'd have assumed that Germany would nail vaccine production, but would be overly cautious with restrictions and would be slow to open up.

    The UK under Boris Johnson, on the other hand, I'd have assumed would mess up the vaccines, but would have a swashbuckling attitude that would mean we'd open up successfully.

    The EU, the US and Israel are correctly opening up while we dither.

    Boris: for the love of God, please (a) release the AZN vaccines to people who want them, and (b) open up on the 21st.
    On point a - if it were my decision I'd actually give Novavax an emergency use authorisation based on the preliminary data from the PIII trial as we'd get around 10m-12m doses released for bottling at Wockhart and GSK immediately which would get us 3m extra doses per week in 21 days and then 2m per week from current manufacturing.

    It's probably about the same risk level as AZ but it doesn't need 4 weeks to reach minimum efficacy and it's already shown better results against existing variants on the same level as Pfizer and Moderna. In terms of neutralising antibodies Novavax has the second best overall immunity provided after Moderna and it only requires a 3 week gap.

    That not only gets us over the line, we'd be done with our vaccine programme as Novavax would cover the last 6-7m people and it would free up Pfizer for second doses for the over 25s cohort.
    The other option would be to use half doses of Pfizer or Moderna. In the original trials, they looked almost as effective in eliciting antibody response.
    They should certainly run larger trials with such dosages where the pandemic is at its hottest, as if they were to confirm effectiveness it would massively speed up the rate at which the rest of the world could be vaccinated.
    That was AZ, wasn’t it? Caused by an error in one of the trials.

    Anyway I still think that vaccines (and the link to rising case numbers) aren’t the issue. They are the excuse, allowing the scientists to produce new models on the grounds that “things have changed”. The scientists haven’t produced a single original model throughout this whole pandemic. They ALWAYS show basically the same thing. I suspect that every model Ferguson has ever produced shows the same thing. A range of scenarios ranging from the extremely benign to the very scary. And the Govt being encouraged to take a cautious approach on the basis of the scary ones. And because there’s a range of scenarios they can never be accused of getting it wrong. Because they always make sure that the inputs are things of which they are uncertain.
    Ferguson failed to get F&M, BSE or swine flu right, and predicted 90,000 deaths in Sweden by July 2020 with no lockdown. There were ~8,000.

    No lockdown was standard worldwide public health policy for >100 years and was in the UK 2011 pandemic plan. It was still the UK policy in Febrary 2020 and would have been the least bad way to deal with SARS-CoV-2.

    Maybe this is why we got lockdowns, aka the most stupid public health policy in my lifetime

    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/how-fanatics-took-over-world
    You are peddling fake news.

    https://theferret.scot/fact-check-neil-ferguson-covid-19-predictions/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,999
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
    Lol. Fair play for admitting it!
    I'm going to be plenty wrong on my life. It's best to acknowledge it when it happens and to move on.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:



    I've got not time for vaccine refusers and I would shed no tears if they all got COVID and died but it is simply a personal choice to take on that individual risk of refusing a vaccine.

    The issue has always been overwhelming the NHS which was a collective risk for the nation. The vaccine programme has eliminated that collective risk regardless of what the garbage models say.

    No, the issue here are the c***s like Susan Michie who are pushing forever lockdown as a solution to anything. Ultimately people like contrarian are now only really risking their own health by refusing the vaccine. People like Michie are trying to push the whole nation into a permanent state of social distancing because they're on a power trip and theyve realised the government is too weak to tell them to get fucked.

    As I said this morning, the UK feels like a country that no longer wants to be free. The people have been mollified by the anti freedom scientists with the scare stories and garbage models. That's not a society I want to live in, asking permission from unelected scientists to enjoy some of life's pleasures. No thanks. Whatever contrarian's faults he's not pushing the idea of forever lockdown on anyone because he doesn't want the vaccine. Michie and her band of c***s are doing that.

    It's going to take Steve Baker PM to get rid of these wankers. I'll rejoin the party and campaign for him if necessary. Anything but this half life.


    Do you think the 1922 will move against Boris if he extends lockdown beyond 19th July?
    Depends what happens in the polls and on Thursday, if there is not much leakage to ReformUK than Boris is fine.

    If Boris' announcement cancelling Freedom Day proves as disastrous as May's announcement cancelling Brexit in Spring 2019 was to Tory prospects and there is again Tory leakage to Farage and Tice then he will have a problem
    Doubt that will happen. Which if you think about it means that Brexit was more important to Tory voters than freedom itself. Sounds about right.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,979

    I feel sick - the cameras even looked for angles to get christian's face as he was lying face down...

    Awful awful scenes.

    That's pretty strange - usually when there's a serious injury they don't even show replays, and a collapse is clearly serious.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,439
    edited June 2021
    kle4 said:

    I feel sick - the cameras even looked for angles to get christian's face as he was lying face down...

    Awful awful scenes.

    That's pretty strange - usually when there's a serious injury they don't even show replays, and a collapse is clearly serious.
    It is the host broadcaster who did that.

    It is interesting that in the UK when there's a serious leg smashing type injury in a domestic match Sky and BT don't show a replay but in Europe they do,
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,011
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
    Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?
This discussion has been closed.