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The betting markets are over-stating Andy Burnham’s chances of succeeding Starmer – politicalbetting

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,033
    Brom said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Brom said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Brom said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Brom said:

    tlg86 said:

    Brom said:

    The BBC are a disgrace for showing that. They should have cut back to the studio immediately. I couldn’t watch that, was ghoulish.

    To be honest, anyone is free to turn off.
    Yes, we should definitely get in the habit of filming people dying. The option and decision was to not have this sick invasive footage going into millions of homes. I appreciate the pundits were underprepared but that’s live TV.

    I did switch over but then of course I didn’t know when it was safe to switch back.
    Why would you want to switch back? Someone was in your perhaps overdramatised view "dying" but you hoped there was a chance of the march was being continued?
    Probably because I wanted an update on his condition without watching him lying motionless on the floor? I feel that’s quite a normal approach to these things.
    Fair enough, assuming you know or are related to him.
    Hello sociopath

    We don't need to get angry with each other because of what happened in the match.
    Are you new to PB?
    Yes and someone else earlier was saying that when you're wrong the best thing is just to say so and move on.

    That would decimate posting volumes on here. Could actually kill the site.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,068
    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Boris's Ratings are up 3 from last time, Sir Keirs are down 1
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Missed penalty.

    Denmark aren’t having a good day
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
    Hardly a surprise considering the media's coverage of the issues.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
    Your regular reminder that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

    As one pollster reminds us all the public were in favour of the Iraq War and a few years later hardly anyone admitting to supporting it at the time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    Seems massively unfair on Denmark to finish this game after having to watch a team mate need CPR.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458

    Seems massively unfair on Denmark to finish this game after having to watch a team mate need CPR.

    The Danish players wanted to play this game tonight.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Boris's Ratings are up 3 from last time, Sir Keirs are down 1
    According to that Opinium, only Green Voters are in favour of restrictions being lifted on the 21st
  • citycentrecitycentre Posts: 90
    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
    I think the 54% is soft support from the couldn't give a toss pensioners and wfh crowd
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    Tory lead now averaging more than 10%. Tory solid on ~43, difference is always Labour vs Lib Thingies + Eco-Fascists.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited June 2021

    My list of current leaders I have a view on, from serious to lightweight;

    1. Merkel
    2. Biden
    3. Morrison
    4. Sturgeon
    3. Macron
    4. Putin
    5. Drakeford
    5. Trudeau
    6. Von der Leyen
    7. Ardern
    8. Johnson

    You don't think Putin is that serious? He is a lot of things, but he is definitely serious, a serious threat to the world, to anybody who opposes him, any surrounding countries with any land he thinks is useful.
    He is not beyond dumb and desperate attention-grabbing manoeuvres (was my thinking).
    Your list seems a little politically-tinted to me. I wouldn't describe Biden as serious - the poor man is barely lucid.
    Pardon my French, but what a load of horseshit. Biden's more lucid that you - or me for that matter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,033
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
    Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?
    No, he had not proven it.

    Proof - either way - may never come, especially if it was a low level escape, and was covered up.

    If the virus is discovered in the wild, that would clearly be a big boost for the wild theory. But remember it took six years to find the specific host of SARS and we've never found the hosts of either HIV/AIDS or Ebola.

    Also, even if it is found in the wild, it doesn't mean that it wasn't captured and then escaped.
    If it leaked from a lab does it follow that the Chinese government know it did and are hence covering up? Or might they be in the dark too?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    edited June 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458
    Christian Eriksen had a Facetime call with his teammates from the hospital and asked them to play the game tonight, as “he feels better now”, @sportstudio just reported.

    https://twitter.com/ptgorst/status/1403793250331287552
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    edited June 2021
    Footblers and covid.... # 2056

    Copa America 2021: Twelve of Venezuela's players and coaching staff test positive for Covid-19 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57456469
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458
    Finland's goalkeeper is a vampire.

    He's scared of crosses
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,033

    algarkirk said:

    nico679 said:

    I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

    History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

    His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

    So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

    Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

    Membership of the Common Market or even just signing up to aligning standards for agriculture.

    Would have passed parliament and EU would have agreed.
    No it wouldn't pass Parliament. Remember the indicative votes - that was put forwards and was rejected. 🤦‍♂️

    Plus at the referendum we didn't vote to Remain either.
    I reckon would have passed, easily.

    Aligning agricultural standards to the EU is leaving the EU.

    It is just your ideology standing in the way and causing the rise in tensions in N Ireland in doing so.
    If it would have passed, why was it rejected in the indicative votes?

    Of course my ideology rejects it and my ideology has no more of a reason to bow down to alignment, than telling the Irish they must leave the EU with us. Any solution needs to recognise that Ireland wants to remain and we want to leave and treat all parties with respect.
    Respect is always good. But the Conservative Party also claims to be hard-headed about markets. Losing access for food exports to the EU and Northern Ireland so that we can in theory lower our standards, while insisting that we don't actually want to, makes no sense.
    Good grief. You lot simply won’t accept the fact you lost the referendum will you?
    The reason we won is precisely the lack of respect for the wishes of the electorate you are now showing. You simply refuse to accept we want what we want. It is arrogance and a total and utter disgrace.
    You want lower food standards?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    We can turn to the lyrics of The Jam once again:

    "And the public wants what the public gets
    But I don't get what this society wants"

    Although on this, I'm on the side of the majority.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,457

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Perhaps we could all start judging people on the content of their character and not the colour of their skin and see if it works.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,033
    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    So the public wants what the public gets - but I want nothing that this government's got.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Perhaps we could all start judging people on the content of their character and not the colour of their skin and see if it works.

    Woooo steady on there...
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Tory lead now averaging more than 10%. Tory solid on ~43, difference is always Labour vs Lib Thingies + Eco-Fascists.

    True - though only 5 months ago Opinium showed Labour ahead.The pollster is now showing the same Tory lead as just post Easter. In itself , this poll does not imply a Tory gain at Batley&Spen - indeed it shows a small swing to Labour of 1.35% compared with December 2019 which should indicate an increased Labour majority in terms of vote share. If,however, the seat is lost, Starmer will be toast - all his authority will be destroyed.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    We can turn to the lyrics of The Jam once again:

    "And the public wants what the public gets
    But I don't get what this society wants"

    Although on this, I'm on the side of the majority.
    I'd be curious to see polling on whether people think we should reverse the last reopening.

    My dad - who's spent the last two weeks saying that we will open up on 21 June - thinks that if they're worried, then they should shut pubs etc. And I think he's right.

    What happens when things don't get better in three weeks time? They'll extend and extend and extend. It would be better to reverse the last reopening and get cases down and give a bit more time for the vaccines to take effect.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,252

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    edited June 2021
    justin124 said:

    Tory lead now averaging more than 10%. Tory solid on ~43, difference is always Labour vs Lib Thingies + Eco-Fascists.

    True - though only 5 months ago Opinium showed Labour ahead.The pollster is now showing the same Tory lead as just post Easter. In itself , this poll does not imply a Tory gain at Batley&Spen - indeed it shows a small swing to Labour of 1.35% compared with December 2019 which should indicate an increased Labour majority in terms of vote share. If,however, the seat is lost, Starmer will be toast - all his authority will be destroyed.
    You are nothing but consistent.....always seeing that bright spark for Labour.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Well played Finland.

    Surreal game.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
    Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?
    No, he had not proven it.

    Proof - either way - may never come, especially if it was a low level escape, and was covered up.

    If the virus is discovered in the wild, that would clearly be a big boost for the wild theory. But remember it took six years to find the specific host of SARS and we've never found the hosts of either HIV/AIDS or Ebola.

    Also, even if it is found in the wild, it doesn't mean that it wasn't captured and then escaped.
    If it leaked from a lab does it follow that the Chinese government know it did and are hence covering up? Or might they be in the dark too?
    Nothing is certain, and Robert is right, I certainly did not prove the virus came from the lab, that would make me the internet hero of the century (or the guy who started World War 3), all I proved is that there is a laboratory near the wet market, which might have been a BSL2 centre of risky corona gain-of-function research

    What was interesting in that whole exchange was how a smart guy, Robert Smithson, leapt immediately to the conclusion that I had posted some insane Trumpite conspiratorial bollocks, which needed just ten seconds Googling to refute - only for ten seconds googling to show I was completely right, and he was embarrassingly wrong, on all counts


    Why this reaction? I think the original gaslighting by the scientific/political Establishment: "lab leak" is mad, Trump believes it, all viruses come from animals naturally - has been notably successful. It has duped many people
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458
    edited June 2021
    algarkirk said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Perhaps we could all start judging people on the content of their character and not the colour of their skin and see if it works.

    We should judge people on the choice of their shoes and general attire.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx
    Conclusion: Tory voters more likely to be scratched from guest lists than Labour voters!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.
    Only a bit? Very generous.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Tory lead now averaging more than 10%. Tory solid on ~43, difference is always Labour vs Lib Thingies + Eco-Fascists.

    True - though only 5 months ago Opinium showed Labour ahead.The pollster is now showing the same Tory lead as just post Easter. In itself , this poll does not imply a Tory gain at Batley&Spen - indeed it shows a small swing to Labour of 1.35% compared with December 2019 which should indicate an increased Labour majority in terms of vote share. If,however, the seat is lost, Starmer will be toast - all his authority will be destroyed.
    You are nothing but consistent.....always seeing that bright spark for Labour.
    Which bright spark would that be? It is far from visible to me.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Before this taking the knee malarkey, wasn't the last time the England team made a political gesture before kick off that time they all gave a Nazi salute away to Germany?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    tlg86 said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    We can turn to the lyrics of The Jam once again:

    "And the public wants what the public gets
    But I don't get what this society wants"

    Although on this, I'm on the side of the majority.
    I'd be curious to see polling on whether people think we should reverse the last reopening.

    My dad - who's spent the last two weeks saying that we will open up on 21 June - thinks that if they're worried, then they should shut pubs etc. And I think he's right.

    What happens when things don't get better in three weeks time? They'll extend and extend and extend. It would be better to reverse the last reopening and get cases down and give a bit more time for the vaccines to take effect.
    A short delay might not be too unpalatable to many on the Conservative benches but I reckon going backwards would very much NOT be.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,252

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.
    Only a bit? Very generous.
    Well, they have been playing India and New Zealand, by some distance the two best sides in the world right now. But even so, it’s remarkable how they keep finding new and innovative ways to fail with the bat.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2021/06/11/lupin-season-two-review-bravo-glorious-gleeful-goofy-robin-hood/

    Didn't know it was created by a Brit....bit embarrassing for the French.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458
    Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

    That will stop amusing me.

    A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,919
    edited June 2021
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx
    I think you may have an interest in that, but of course here in Wales our minister has spoken to my son and his partner today and confirmed the service with 40 attendees for the 31st July and another 30 can gather socially distanced outside in the Church grounds, before all of us go to the marquee for the wedding breakfast

    They are delighted and my son is setting up to broadcast the service on YouTube from inside the church to everyone, and indeed to our other son and daughter in law in Vancouver

    Mind you he is head of IT and Network service at his school so he has the expertise to do it cost free
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.
    Only a bit? Very generous.
    Well, they have been playing India and New Zealand, by some distance the two best sides in the world right now. But even so, it’s remarkable how they keep finding new and innovative ways to fail with the bat.
    This wasn't even NZ A-Team, it was mostly their B team. They are saving most of the big guns for the match vs India.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.
    Only a bit? Very generous.
    Only the batting bit of the team.

    The bowlers have been OK, and even better with the bat than the batsmen themselves.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    edited June 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament. The Eastern European fans in particular are just not on board with it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,146

    tlg86 said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    We can turn to the lyrics of The Jam once again:

    "And the public wants what the public gets
    But I don't get what this society wants"

    Although on this, I'm on the side of the majority.
    I'd be curious to see polling on whether people think we should reverse the last reopening.

    My dad - who's spent the last two weeks saying that we will open up on 21 June - thinks that if they're worried, then they should shut pubs etc. And I think he's right.

    What happens when things don't get better in three weeks time? They'll extend and extend and extend. It would be better to reverse the last reopening and get cases down and give a bit more time for the vaccines to take effect.
    A short delay might not be too unpalatable to many on the Conservative benches but I reckon going backwards would very much NOT be.
    I don't doubt it. But I think that the PM is storing up trouble if he simply delays the next stage. Things won't magically improve in that time. Okay, more vaccines will be at work, but it's the cases that's driving this wobble. And they will carry on getting worse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament.
    They should have done a massive ceremonial knee at the beginning and then ended it. This is the worst of all worlds, the symbolism mocked, the fans annoyed, the players deeply uneasy
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    Ironically it is the Russians on their knees now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,786
    Poor VDL, again shoved to the side of the photo...
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    edited June 2021
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament.
    They should have done a massive ceremonial knee at the beginning and then ended it. This is the worst of all worlds, the symbolism mocked, the fans annoyed, the players deeply uneasy
    Given they had an opening ceremony, perhaps incorporating it there as a one-off might have been the way forward.

    At the England friendly it was a curious mix of applause and boos although on balance I thought the former won out. But at St Petersburg it seemed just outright hostility.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923

    Poor VDL, again shoved to the side of the photo...
    Take the bleeding suits off. You're in Cornwall, it's a beautiful evening, you're having a beach barbecue at the Hidden Hut (a great place)

    Suits??!
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Christian Eriksen had a Facetime call with his teammates from the hospital and asked them to play the game tonight, as “he feels better now”, @sportstudio just reported.

    https://twitter.com/ptgorst/status/1403793250331287552

    Better than dead.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,023
    RobD said:

    algarkirk said:

    nico679 said:

    I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

    History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

    His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

    So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

    Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

    It was the most sensible option by far.
    Why not accept aligning UK agriculture standards to the EU and signing up to that ?

    UK famers are happy with that and would not stop trade deals with US etc.
    Because we voted to take back control.

    Having our own rules is literally what Boris and Vote Leave campaigned on in 2016, so entirely right to campaign on and negotiate that in 2019 too.
    You are changing what you are saying.

    It is purely your ideology getting in the way of aligning agriculture standards to the EU.

    It aligns to the 2016 referendum result, it deals with the N Ireland issues.

    It is an option, one that would work.

    Your ideology stands in its way though.
    Aren't standards already perfectly aligned?
    No: we have much stricter standards for animal welfare than the EU.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
    Your regular reminder that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

    As one pollster reminds us all the public were in favour of the Iraq War and a few years later hardly anyone admitting to supporting it at the time.
    Well quite.
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Boris's Ratings are up 3 from last time, Sir Keirs are down 1
    According to that Opinium, only Green Voters are in favour of restrictions being lifted on the 21st
    That made me consider whether or not I ought to start supporting the Green Party.

    For about 2.4 nanoseconds.

    Then I remembered the old proverb about stopped clocks.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Well, the cricketers have certainly united the nation in the fervent belief that they are a bit shit.
    England need a sprinkling of Garton and Salt.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament.
    They should have done a massive ceremonial knee at the beginning and then ended it. This is the worst of all worlds, the symbolism mocked, the fans annoyed, the players deeply uneasy
    Given they had an opening ceremony, perhaps incorporating it there as a one-off might have been the way forward.

    At the England friendly it was a curious mix of applause and boos although on balance I thought the former won out. But at St Petersburg it seemed just outright hostility.
    Can you blame them?

    Russia had zero involvement in the Atlantic slave trade and has fuck all to do with American policing. It has its own racial problems but the idea Russian fans should respect "the death of George Floyd" and this ridiculous, increasingly-embarrassing piece of Anglo-Saxon virtue signalling, by millionaires, is absurd

    I'd certainly boo, if I was a St Petersburger
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    The Australian PM and South African President have both now joined the G7 leaders in Cornwall I see
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Before this taking the knee malarkey, wasn't the last time the England team made a political gesture before kick off that time they all gave a Nazi salute away to Germany?
    Poppy’s on the shirt?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,252
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    Media totally out of touch with the public...again... remember anybody who diagrees is a racist accordingly to pundits including one who have been done for racism...

    They need to find an alternative by next season. Something less divisive, like the cricketers.
    Before this taking the knee malarkey, wasn't the last time the England team made a political gesture before kick off that time they all gave a Nazi salute away to Germany?
    Poppy’s on the shirt?
    Who is Poppy and whose shirt is she on?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx
    I think you may have an interest in that, but of course here in Wales our minister has spoken to my son and his partner today and confirmed the service with 40 attendees for the 31st July and another 30 can gather socially distanced outside in the Church grounds, before all of us go to the marquee for the wedding breakfast

    They are delighted and my son is setting up to broadcast the service on YouTube from inside the church to everyone, and indeed to our other son and daughter in law in Vancouver

    Mind you he is head of IT and Network service at his school so he has the expertise to do it cost free
    I hope all goes well for them, we are doing the wedding with 30 and a livesteam next weekend in Oxford and a Thanksgiving reception outdoors on July 3rd in Epping for 50-60 at present rules depending
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

    That will stop amusing me.

    A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.

    During WW2 there was a British POW in Germany, who made a daring and almost-successful escape attempt, disguised as an officer in the Bulgarian Navy (because his RN Reserve uniform had crowns on the buttons, and Bulgaria was a kingdom AND German ally).

    For his nom d'évasion he called himself "Ivan Bugeroff".
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    HYUFD said:

    The Australian PM and South African President have both now joined the G7 leaders in Cornwall I see
    G107
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,919
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx
    I think you may have an interest in that, but of course here in Wales our minister has spoken to my son and his partner today and confirmed the service with 40 attendees for the 31st July and another 30 can gather socially distanced outside in the Church grounds, before all of us go to the marquee for the wedding breakfast

    They are delighted and my son is setting up to broadcast the service on YouTube from inside the church to everyone, and indeed to our other son and daughter in law in Vancouver

    Mind you he is head of IT and Network service at his school so he has the expertise to do it cost free
    I hope all goes well for them, we are doing the wedding with 30 and a livesteam next weekend in Oxford and a Thanksgiving reception outdoors on July 3rd in Epping for 50-60 at present rules depending
    Thanks @HYUFD and may you have a wonderful wedding and outdoor reception on the 3rd July
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,998
    edited June 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
    Your regular reminder that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

    As one pollster reminds us all the public were in favour of the Iraq War and a few years later hardly anyone admitting to supporting it at the time.
    Well quite.
    Not according to MORI - in February 2003: a quarter of the public (26%) said they would support British troops being used without proof that Iraq is hiding weapons or a new Security Council resolution, while 63% would oppose, net support of -37; at the end of February, the figures were 24% support, 67% oppose, net -43.

    That changed once the Forces were in action, as it always does, then changed back afterwards.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,033
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
    Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?
    No, he had not proven it.

    Proof - either way - may never come, especially if it was a low level escape, and was covered up.

    If the virus is discovered in the wild, that would clearly be a big boost for the wild theory. But remember it took six years to find the specific host of SARS and we've never found the hosts of either HIV/AIDS or Ebola.

    Also, even if it is found in the wild, it doesn't mean that it wasn't captured and then escaped.
    If it leaked from a lab does it follow that the Chinese government know it did and are hence covering up? Or might they be in the dark too?
    Nothing is certain, and Robert is right, I certainly did not prove the virus came from the lab, that would make me the internet hero of the century (or the guy who started World War 3), all I proved is that there is a laboratory near the wet market, which might have been a BSL2 centre of risky corona gain-of-function research

    What was interesting in that whole exchange was how a smart guy, Robert Smithson, leapt immediately to the conclusion that I had posted some insane Trumpite conspiratorial bollocks, which needed just ten seconds Googling to refute - only for ten seconds googling to show I was completely right, and he was embarrassingly wrong, on all counts


    Why this reaction? I think the original gaslighting by the scientific/political Establishment: "lab leak" is mad, Trump believes it, all viruses come from animals naturally - has been notably successful. It has duped many people
    The evidence has to be both compatible with leak and incompatible with wild. Just the 1st isn't enough. And unfortunately you can't divorce messenger from message. Not so much you - although there is that - but with all the Trumpian loonies. I'm afraid their support does taint the object of it. There's no easy way around that. It saves so much time to assume everything they say is true is false. It's efficient to do that because it will be the case 99% of the time. But there will be that 1% and maybe this is it. I doubt it but that's all I'm doing. Doubting. Which is a big move. I'm no longer rejecting it out of hand - my efficient default for Trump tat - and I'm not mocking it. Looking forward to being able to mock it again one day but I realize that day might never arrive. Could be permanent limbo on this one - which would not be great for anyone.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,705
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament.
    They should have done a massive ceremonial knee at the beginning and then ended it. This is the worst of all worlds, the symbolism mocked, the fans annoyed, the players deeply uneasy
    Given they had an opening ceremony, perhaps incorporating it there as a one-off might have been the way forward.

    At the England friendly it was a curious mix of applause and boos although on balance I thought the former won out. But at St Petersburg it seemed just outright hostility.
    Can you blame them?

    Russia had zero involvement in the Atlantic slave trade and has fuck all to do with American policing. It has its own racial problems but the idea Russian fans should respect "the death of George Floyd" and this ridiculous, increasingly-embarrassing piece of Anglo-Saxon virtue signalling, by millionaires, is absurd

    I'd certainly boo, if I was a St Petersburger
    Personally I don't really give a fuck either way if they do it if that's the choice, although one does wonder about instances where there is pressure being exerted to do it (the big discussion in F1 was about certain drivers not doing it and why not etc.).

    But I do think doing it, and then subsequently arguing about doing it or not, is mere displacement activity. A salve so that right-on people can say they are tackling an important issue, taking a stand, raising awareness etc. It's all a bit...meta, if I'm honest.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,690

    Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

    That will stop amusing me.

    A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.

    During WW2 there was a British POW in Germany, who made a daring and almost-successful escape attempt, disguised as an officer in the Bulgarian Navy (because his RN Reserve uniform had crowns on the buttons, and Bulgaria was a kingdom AND German ally).

    For his nom d'évasion he called himself "Ivan Bugeroff".
    Also during WW2 -
    https://lettersofnote.com/2009/10/28/we-all-feel-like-that-now-and-then/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited June 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament.
    They should have done a massive ceremonial knee at the beginning and then ended it. This is the worst of all worlds, the symbolism mocked, the fans annoyed, the players deeply uneasy
    Given they had an opening ceremony, perhaps incorporating it there as a one-off might have been the way forward.

    At the England friendly it was a curious mix of applause and boos although on balance I thought the former won out. But at St Petersburg it seemed just outright hostility.
    Can you blame them?

    Russia had zero involvement in the Atlantic slave trade and has fuck all to do with American policing. It has its own racial problems but the idea Russian fans should respect "the death of George Floyd" and this ridiculous, increasingly-embarrassing piece of Anglo-Saxon virtue signalling, by millionaires, is absurd

    I'd certainly boo, if I was a St Petersburger
    There are also barely any black Russians, Russia is almost entirely white apart from a few Tatar Mongolians in the far East of the country.

    Hence Putin is so popular with white nationalists and racists
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament.
    They should have done a massive ceremonial knee at the beginning and then ended it. This is the worst of all worlds, the symbolism mocked, the fans annoyed, the players deeply uneasy
    Do you think taking the knee is political at all? Not even when complete with black power salute?
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264
    Quite funny seeing all the separate huddles occurring. EU lot did it yesterday, and looks like Biden, Johnson, and Morrison came from an Aus-U.K.-US one.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108


  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,998
    Chameleon said:

    Quite funny seeing all the separate huddles occurring. EU lot did it yesterday, and looks like Biden, Johnson, and Morrison came from an Aus-U.K.-US one.
    The way it should be ...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,458
    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
    Your regular reminder that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

    As one pollster reminds us all the public were in favour of the Iraq War and a few years later hardly anyone admitting to supporting it at the time.
    Well quite.
    Not according to MORI - in February 2003: a quarter of the public (26%) said they would support British troops being used without proof that Iraq is hiding weapons or a new Security Council resolution, while 63% would oppose, net support of -37; at the end of February, the figures were 24% support, 67% oppose, net -43.

    That changed once the Forces were in action, as it always does, then changed back afterwards.
    Missing the point again. I was talking about people supporting the war in 2003 then recalling they opposed it years later.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq

    It was something that happened in America as well.

    https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/05/21/americans-remember-opposing-2003-war-iraq
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    What I want to know is how the virus got from the Wuhan lab, ie the BSL-2 CDC facility where they did much of the research, all the way across the city to the market?

    I mean, how could that happen?


    What I love about the

    That could be a photo of Croydon with Chinese place names turned on.
    As cellphone-data-suggests-october-shutdown-wuhan-lab-experts-n1202716

    And about 1,000 other examples.
    No, that’s the Wuhan Institute of Virology, a BSL-4 lab about 10km from the market (I think)

    Since the plague began, the scientists in Wuhan have admitted much of their work was done in lower level BSL-2 ancillary labs


    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

    ‘Much of Shi’s work on gain-of-function in coronaviruses was performed at the BSL2 safety level, as is stated in her publications and other documents. She has said in an interview with Science magazine that “[t]he coronavirus research in our laboratory is conducted in BSL-2 or BSL-3 laboratories.”’

    One of these is alleged to be the Wuhan ‘CDC’. I happily confess I can’t prove that’s it in the photo. But I have seen several maps which show the BSL-2 and 3 labs are much nearer the market

    As ever, you bluster loudly but you’re embarrassingly ill-informed
    Sorry: there is literally ZERO evidence that that photo is of either the wet market or the the Wuhan lab.

    It's a photo. With circles on it. Providence unknown.

    One of the circles says "Wuhan CDC". Which doesn't exist,

    The other says "Market".


    And I'm the one ill informed?

    Are you high?
    You didn’t even do your ‘ten seconds of research’ to find out if there were multiple labs in Wuhan. There are. Oh dear.
    You don't even know that photo is from Wuhan.

    The only thing we know for sure is that "Wuhan CDC" doesn't exist.

    And I'm the one not doing my research?
    I HAVE done my research. I’m 99% sure that is a map of central Wuhan. And it correctly identifies the Wuhan wet market

    However the circled building appears to be a Ramen bar. Which, I confess, does not sound like an evil bioweapon lab

    That said, right next door is a research hospital. Who knows. Where are the other, lower level labs? It’s quite an important detail




    I did the same search on Google :smile:

    Two things: 1. That's a seafood market, so are we sure that's the alleged wet market, anyway? And 2. If you look around the images, the hospital is in the middle of some really fancy office and hotel space.
    Yes, it’s the same market

    Tsk, Robert. This took TEN SECONDS OF RESEARCH


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Seafood_Wholesale_Market

    The Wuhan Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market (Chinese: 武汉华南海鲜批发市场),[1][2] also known as the Huanan Seafood Market[3] (Huanan means 'South China'), was a live animal and seafood market in Jianghan District, Wuhan City, the capital of Hubei Province in Central China.

    The market became widely known worldwide after being identified as the 'Ground Zero'…
    So, it's down to a simple question: was "Wuhan CDC" (which doesn't exist) actually the lab, or was it a noodle bar?
    Well, it looks like I’m right and you’re wrong. AGAIN

    Check this thread, it links to a live Baidu map which confirms the other red circle is basically correct. That’s the Wuhan Jianghan Disease Prevention and Control Centre


    ‘The location on the map linked on project-evidence.github.io has changed since the screenshot. Chinese locations have not been accurate on Google Maps in the past, due to restrictions. The correct walking distance between Huanan Seafood Market and Wuhan CDC is most likely 0.5km.’

    https://github.com/Project-Evidence/project-evidence.github.io/issues/14

    And yes, it exists. Check the affiliations at the end


    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2008-3
    Yes. It looks like you are right, and I am wrong.
    Has he proved the lab theory now then? - With that photo?
    No, he had not proven it.

    Proof - either way - may never come, especially if it was a low level escape, and was covered up.

    If the virus is discovered in the wild, that would clearly be a big boost for the wild theory. But remember it took six years to find the specific host of SARS and we've never found the hosts of either HIV/AIDS or Ebola.

    Also, even if it is found in the wild, it doesn't mean that it wasn't captured and then escaped.
    If it leaked from a lab does it follow that the Chinese government know it did and are hence covering up? Or might they be in the dark too?
    Nothing is certain, and Robert is right, I certainly did not prove the virus came from the lab, that would make me the internet hero of the century (or the guy who started World War 3), all I proved is that there is a laboratory near the wet market, which might have been a BSL2 centre of risky corona gain-of-function research

    What was interesting in that whole exchange was how a smart guy, Robert Smithson, leapt immediately to the conclusion that I had posted some insane Trumpite conspiratorial bollocks, which needed just ten seconds Googling to refute - only for ten seconds googling to show I was completely right, and he was embarrassingly wrong, on all counts


    Why this reaction? I think the original gaslighting by the scientific/political Establishment: "lab leak" is mad, Trump believes it, all viruses come from animals naturally - has been notably successful. It has duped many people
    The evidence has to be both compatible with leak and incompatible with wild. Just the 1st isn't enough. And unfortunately you can't divorce messenger from message. Not so much you - although there is that - but with all the Trumpian loonies. I'm afraid their support does taint the object of it. There's no easy way around that. It saves so much time to assume everything they say is true is false. It's efficient to do that because it will be the case 99% of the time. But there will be that 1% and maybe this is it. I doubt it but that's all I'm doing. Doubting. Which is a big move. I'm no longer rejecting it out of hand - my efficient default for Trump tat - and I'm not mocking it. Looking forward to being able to mock it again one day but I realize that day might never arrive. Could be permanent limbo on this one - which would not be great for anyone.
    I don't particularly give a fuck what you think, so you can save yourself the energy expended in typing long boring narcissistic paragraphs, in future

    I do care what Robert Smithson thinks because he is clever and it is bewildering he is confounded by this. Also, he can ban me
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Opinium finds only 35% of voters agree with players taking the knee before a game but a further 28% think they should be allowed to do it even if they disagree with it

    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1403791681196068864?s=20

    It went down really well in St. Petersburg when Belgium did it, that's for sure.
    Were there a few boos?
    Closer to an entire (admittedly half-full) stadium full of whistles.
    I did say this the other day we are going to see this throughout the tournament.
    They should have done a massive ceremonial knee at the beginning and then ended it. This is the worst of all worlds, the symbolism mocked, the fans annoyed, the players deeply uneasy
    Given they had an opening ceremony, perhaps incorporating it there as a one-off might have been the way forward.

    At the England friendly it was a curious mix of applause and boos although on balance I thought the former won out. But at St Petersburg it seemed just outright hostility.
    Can you blame them?

    Russia had zero involvement in the Atlantic slave trade and has fuck all to do with American policing. It has its own racial problems but the idea Russian fans should respect "the death of George Floyd" and this ridiculous, increasingly-embarrassing piece of Anglo-Saxon virtue signalling, by millionaires, is absurd

    I'd certainly boo, if I was a St Petersburger
    Personally I don't really give a fuck either way if they do it if that's the choice, although one does wonder about instances where there is pressure being exerted to do it (the big discussion in F1 was about certain drivers not doing it and why not etc.).

    But I do think doing it, and then subsequently arguing about doing it or not, is mere displacement activity. A salve so that right-on people can say they are tackling an important issue, taking a stand, raising awareness etc. It's all a bit...meta, if I'm honest.
    Are you reading this Sky Sports News?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108


    He also says "less severe and people ill for a smaller period of time"

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,295
    Leon said:

    Poor VDL, again shoved to the side of the photo...
    Take the bleeding suits off. You're in Cornwall, it's a beautiful evening, you're having a beach barbecue at the Hidden Hut (a great place)

    Suits??!
    They’re not going to the Hidden Hut, the Hidden Hut is coming to them, as it were.

    (My summer holiday last year was in the house just behind the Hidden Hut).
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994

    Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

    That will stop amusing me.

    A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.

    Was the Bulgarian player Trans?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,998
    edited June 2021

    Fishing said:

    Pulpstar said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Stockholm syndrome lol
    Your regular reminder that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.

    As one pollster reminds us all the public were in favour of the Iraq War and a few years later hardly anyone admitting to supporting it at the time.
    Well quite.
    Not according to MORI - in February 2003: a quarter of the public (26%) said they would support British troops being used without proof that Iraq is hiding weapons or a new Security Council resolution, while 63% would oppose, net support of -37; at the end of February, the figures were 24% support, 67% oppose, net -43.

    That changed once the Forces were in action, as it always does, then changed back afterwards.
    Missing the point again. I was talking about people supporting the war in 2003 then recalling they opposed it years later.

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq

    It was something that happened in America as well.

    https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/05/21/americans-remember-opposing-2003-war-iraq
    [EDIT]

    I agree with that anyway.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Oh yes, the Ruskies have a player with a surname that sounds a lot like 'Jerkoff'

    That will stop amusing me.

    A bit like a Bulgarian player with a surname that sounded like 'Bollock off'.

    Was the Bulgarian player Trans?
    Transylvanian, perhaps.



    (Yes, I know, that's Romania, but it's close enough.)
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    That’s an inflammatory inflatable.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108


    He also says "less severe and people ill for a smaller period of time"

    Of course, if the casualties consisted of three students with a bit of a cough that would still be too much for SAGE.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,457
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    algarkirk said:

    nico679 said:

    I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

    History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

    His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

    So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

    Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

    It was the most sensible option by far.
    Why not accept aligning UK agriculture standards to the EU and signing up to that ?

    UK famers are happy with that and would not stop trade deals with US etc.
    Because we voted to take back control.

    Having our own rules is literally what Boris and Vote Leave campaigned on in 2016, so entirely right to campaign on and negotiate that in 2019 too.
    You are changing what you are saying.

    It is purely your ideology getting in the way of aligning agriculture standards to the EU.

    It aligns to the 2016 referendum result, it deals with the N Ireland issues.

    It is an option, one that would work.

    Your ideology stands in its way though.
    Aren't standards already perfectly aligned?
    No: we have much stricter standards for animal welfare than the EU.
    If Boris wants to play hardball over this, the narrative could be constructed which basically asks: Does the EU value keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth, above peace in Northern Ireland and the GFA?

    Obvs to the EU the single market trumps every other country's rights and expectations, but why should it?

    If the story can be kept to the contrast of bacon butties and seed potatoes v violence, and a legalistic desire by the EU to defend irrational protectionism Boris could be on a winner.

    There is nothing intrinsically rational about the idea, among advanced industrial democracies, that a sausage roll that is safe to eat in Armagh is not safe to eat in Kells. Or Bialystok for that matter.

  • Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
    This was talked about on the radio the other day.

    Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

    Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,923
    So who is Amy Maxmen, and why does she matter, in the story of Covid?

    Let me explain

    She is a well-known science journalist, and she has written a long series of articles for Nature, Scientific American, etc, variously squishing the "lab leak hypothesis" or saying that investigation of it is divisive and pointless

    Here's just one, recently,

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01383-3

    Here's another, which was eagerly cited by our own parochial halfwit, NigelB, as a "balanced" analysis of the hypotheses

    https://twitter.com/amymaxmen/status/1402376072029642764?s=20


    But is she balanced?

    Let's see. In recent days a damning video has emerged, from 2016, where British boffin Peter Daszak - who funded the "gain of function" research at Wuhan, boasts that his colleagues have created "killer coronaviruses"

    No joke:


    https://twitter.com/jimduey/status/1402606579875254272?s=20

    Watch the video. It's from a 90 minute video panel meeting, broadcast by C-Span from NYC. Now, who is that woman on Peter Daszak's left? Yes, it's Amy Maxmen

    Is this a smoking gun? Of course not. She's a journalist. She must meet scientists all the time

    However, when confronted with this link, Amy Maxmen did a very strange thing, She denied she knew him. This despite this picture, despite her interviewing Daszak for other articles, and despite her actually tweeting her "honour" to be on that panel alongside him in NYC, and linking him in the tweet (this being one of the few tweets she hasn't hastily deleted, in the last 48 hours)

    Pressed further, and shown more photos, Maxmen then said - I kid you not - that the image of her with Daszak had been "doctored" by the ex editor of Breitbart. She claimed it was a fake. She still claimed not to know him

    She was then pressed further, and shown overwhelming video and photo and online evidence that she sat alongside Daszak, that she knew him, that she was lying - at this point she dropped the entire argument that the images were faked by Breitbart and she said Oh yes, I forgot I knew him. She forgot she was honoured to be with the man at the centre of the greatest medical story in a century, and she forgot she had interviewed him for other pieces, and she accidentally thought Breitbart was trying to frame her

    https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/1403538394123169793?s=20

    This IS a smoking gun. There is a small cabal of journalists and scientists trying to cover up their own involvement in 1. Covid origins, and 2. The cover up of these origins

    This is now indisputable.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,252

    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
    This was talked about on the radio the other day.

    Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

    Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.
    Assuming it followed the same trajectory. Given the number of double vaccinated people in vulnerable groups, that seems a very bold assumption.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    Latest poll from
    @OpiniumResearch

    Con 43% +1
    Lab 34% -2
    Green 7% +2
    Lib Dem 6 ±0
    10-11 Jun; change since 27-28 May

    Public want restrictions extended (54-37) according to that poll
    Tory voters by 47% to 43% however want an end to the 30 guest limit on weddings

    https://www.opinium.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/VI-10-06-21-Observer-corrected.xlsx
    I think you may have an interest in that, but of course here in Wales our minister has spoken to my son and his partner today and confirmed the service with 40 attendees for the 31st July and another 30 can gather socially distanced outside in the Church grounds, before all of us go to the marquee for the wedding breakfast

    They are delighted and my son is setting up to broadcast the service on YouTube from inside the church to everyone, and indeed to our other son and daughter in law in Vancouver

    Mind you he is head of IT and Network service at his school so he has the expertise to do it cost free
    I hope all goes well for them, we are doing the wedding with 30 and a livesteam next weekend in Oxford and a Thanksgiving reception outdoors on July 3rd in Epping for 50-60 at present rules depending
    Perhaps you could postpone a day, then have a BIG fireworks display?

    Congratulations & best of British luck - or even better, American luck - with the weather!
  • ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
    This was talked about on the radio the other day.

    Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

    Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.
    Assuming it followed the same trajectory. Given the number of double vaccinated people in vulnerable groups, that seems a very bold assumption.
    We are following that trajectory, so far.

    More of Less podcast from memory, worth a listen.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,721
    Didn't you post this earlier in this thread? Someone did.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,252

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
    This was talked about on the radio the other day.

    Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

    Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.
    Assuming it followed the same trajectory. Given the number of double vaccinated people in vulnerable groups, that seems a very bold assumption.
    We are following that trajectory, so far.

    More of Less podcast from memory, worth a listen.
    Those are the key words.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    algarkirk said:

    nico679 said:

    I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

    History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

    His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

    So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

    Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

    It was the most sensible option by far.
    Why not accept aligning UK agriculture standards to the EU and signing up to that ?

    UK famers are happy with that and would not stop trade deals with US etc.
    Because we voted to take back control.

    Having our own rules is literally what Boris and Vote Leave campaigned on in 2016, so entirely right to campaign on and negotiate that in 2019 too.
    You are changing what you are saying.

    It is purely your ideology getting in the way of aligning agriculture standards to the EU.

    It aligns to the 2016 referendum result, it deals with the N Ireland issues.

    It is an option, one that would work.

    Your ideology stands in its way though.
    Aren't standards already perfectly aligned?
    No: we have much stricter standards for animal welfare than the EU.
    If Boris wants to play hardball over this, the narrative could be constructed which basically asks: Does the EU value keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth, above peace in Northern Ireland and the GFA?

    Obvs to the EU the single market trumps every other country's rights and expectations, but why should it?

    If the story can be kept to the contrast of bacon butties and seed potatoes v violence, and a legalistic desire by the EU to defend irrational protectionism Boris could be on a winner.

    There is nothing intrinsically rational about the idea, among advanced industrial democracies, that a sausage roll that is safe to eat in Armagh is not safe to eat in Kells. Or Bialystok for that matter.

    "keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth"

    Moderator! Must we PBers be subjected to THIS kind of filthy, obscene & lewd (take your pick) innuendo?

    Am hoping the answer is, yes!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,290

    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
    This was talked about on the radio the other day.

    Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

    Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.
    Except they are not staying in hospital. Shorter stays, of younger, less sick people, hence the total in hospital only gently rising.
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
    This was talked about on the radio the other day.

    Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

    Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.
    Assuming it followed the same trajectory. Given the number of double vaccinated people in vulnerable groups, that seems a very bold assumption.
    We are following that trajectory, so far.

    More of Less podcast from memory, worth a listen.
    Those are the key words.
    Of course

    So do you want to risk another 4months of lock down by relaxing too early, causing utter collapse in public confidence, or take another few weeks to take time to have confidence that you are not going to utterly destroy the economy by opening too soon?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,252

    algarkirk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    algarkirk said:

    nico679 said:

    I see Bozo is trying to deflect from the 21st June delay by trying to pick a fight with the EU. The so called oven ready deal was a dogs dinner and now the fat oaf goes to his tiresome sovereignty bollocks when he was the one that signed upto sticking the border in the Irish Sea.

    History will record that Boris had three choices: remain (a suicidal hospital pass and only theoretical, but it was there); no deal; a deal which was politically bad in relation to Ireland. No other options existed.

    His critics have the luxury, like DUP politicians, of expounding at length what they didn't want but need to note that no other possibility would get through parliament (though of course remain was not tried). (Remain, it is fair to say, would have demolished the balance of UK politics in unforeseeable and catastrophic ways.) The critics, just like the DUP, have not yet come up with a fourth option which would have got through the EU and parliament.

    So the question for history will be not was Boris perfect (he wasn't) but were there better options at the time. No.

    Boris opted for Get Out. Watch it fail. Renegotiate with an EU once we can all see it must be done. That's what he is doing.

    It was the most sensible option by far.
    Why not accept aligning UK agriculture standards to the EU and signing up to that ?

    UK famers are happy with that and would not stop trade deals with US etc.
    Because we voted to take back control.

    Having our own rules is literally what Boris and Vote Leave campaigned on in 2016, so entirely right to campaign on and negotiate that in 2019 too.
    You are changing what you are saying.

    It is purely your ideology getting in the way of aligning agriculture standards to the EU.

    It aligns to the 2016 referendum result, it deals with the N Ireland issues.

    It is an option, one that would work.

    Your ideology stands in its way though.
    Aren't standards already perfectly aligned?
    No: we have much stricter standards for animal welfare than the EU.
    If Boris wants to play hardball over this, the narrative could be constructed which basically asks: Does the EU value keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth, above peace in Northern Ireland and the GFA?

    Obvs to the EU the single market trumps every other country's rights and expectations, but why should it?

    If the story can be kept to the contrast of bacon butties and seed potatoes v violence, and a legalistic desire by the EU to defend irrational protectionism Boris could be on a winner.

    There is nothing intrinsically rational about the idea, among advanced industrial democracies, that a sausage roll that is safe to eat in Armagh is not safe to eat in Kells. Or Bialystok for that matter.

    "keeping the odd, stray, high quality sausage from slipping into County Louth"

    Moderator! Must we PBers be subjected to THIS kind of filthy, obscene & lewd (take your pick) innuendo?

    Am hoping the answer is, yes!
    A veterinary inspector has just told me that all this BS about sausages is largely due to what we define as a ‘sausage’ being different from the EU’s definition.

    I assumed he’d been watching too much Yes Minister, but he assured me he hasn’t been and this really is a problem. A bit like that ridiculous time they wanted us to rename chocolate Vegelate due to the different proportion of cocoa beans in it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,737
    https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jun/12/museum-of-the-home-reopens-to-protests-over-statue-of-slave-ship-owner

    Seems like everyone wanted Geffrye taken down, but the government Bungled it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,252

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    Dr John Campbell posted some interesting stats

    Cases (daily average) - week to 13/9/20 - 2838
    Hospitalizations (daily average) 10 days later (week to 23/9) - 243

    Fast forward

    cases week to 28/5/21 - 2744
    Hospitalizations (daily average) week to 7/6 - 108

    Far fewer hospitalisations and, I would strongly imagine, involving patients that are (on average) less ill, in need of less care, and are leaving again after shorter stays.

    Not that this makes the blindest bit of difference insofar as any of the individuals involved in making decisions about our ongoing privations are concerned.
    This was talked about on the radio the other day.

    Essentially we have half the hospitalisations per infection compared to Sept 2020.

    Given we are doubling every 10 days then if we let things rip, even if we let things rip much faster as total relaxation would lead to, then we are very very rapidly going to get back to the NHS collapsing.
    Assuming it followed the same trajectory. Given the number of double vaccinated people in vulnerable groups, that seems a very bold assumption.
    We are following that trajectory, so far.

    More of Less podcast from memory, worth a listen.
    Those are the key words.
    Of course

    So do you want to risk another 4months of lock down by relaxing too early, causing utter collapse in public confidence, or take another few weeks to take time to have confidence that you are not going to utterly destroy the economy by opening too soon?
    It is almost inconceivable on the figures presented that there could be another lockdown. This isn’t a variant that leads to significant vaccine escape. So although it is running riot among those in vulnerable groups who have for whatever reason have declined the vaccine, and in younger groups who are yet to be jabbed, it’s going to run out of potential hosts quite quickly.

    My concern is that I am seeing people arguing for further arbitrary extensions based on dubious models that have so far been consistently wrong, when all the actual data we have points to a much lower peak.

    And finally, if it really is that virulent among children there is very little point keeping everything else shuttered and schools open, as it will spread there anyway. And I don’t think one school in Bedford apart anyone is proposing that.

    So a postponement would seem pretty pointless from an epidemiological point of view.

    Anyway, I am off to bed. Have a good evening.
This discussion has been closed.