Was clear from the start they were just using the border for their own political interest. They don't give two hoots about the people there.
At least that’s clear as day. I feel sorry for Ireland - the country with the most to lose in the EU. Let’s give them some of our vaccines
Ireland isn't actually a very big country. We could probably do it.
6.5 million people - we've got enough on order...
And how many over 70s?
Can't be more than 1m, that's a small number.
Not to the EU vaccination procurement team......
Tbh, we should give them 2m AZ doses over the next few weeks so they can fully jab their over 70s. It's a small sacrifice for us and it prevents any kind of risk of border checks.
We will give them to them (in UK Aid boxes) when we're good and ready, and not before.
They can't be seen to have won anything from this whatsoever.
Giving 1.4m doses to the Republic isn't a win for anyone other than common sense to prevent a hard border on the island. The idea just seems mental to me because there will have to be a border checking to see if vaccine doses are being taken into NI.
Sort of health repeat of the financial assistance provided in 2010.
Was clear from the start they were just using the border for their own political interest. They don't give two hoots about the people there.
At least that’s clear as day. I feel sorry for Ireland - the country with the most to lose in the EU. Let’s give them some of our vaccines
Ireland isn't actually a very big country. We could probably do it.
6.5 million people - we've got enough on order...
And how many over 70s?
Can't be more than 1m, that's a small number.
Not to the EU vaccination procurement team......
Tbh, we should give them 2m AZ doses over the next few weeks so they can fully jab their over 70s. It's a small sacrifice for us and it prevents any kind of risk of border checks.
We will give them to them (in UK Aid boxes) when we're good and ready, and not before.
They can't be seen to have won anything from this whatsoever.
Giving 1.4m doses to the Republic isn't a win for anyone other than common sense to prevent a hard border on the island. The idea just seems mental to me because there will have to be a border checking to see if vaccine doses are being taken into NI.
I'd always visualised him wearing one of those sculpted & gilded breastplates, perhaps a laurel wreath. Disappointing.
Don't know. He could be one of those locals who signed up to serve with the Auxiliary Cohorts on the Gask Ridge Limes and is more Roman than the Romans while still dressed in his feile mhor.
Was clear from the start they were just using the border for their own political interest. They don't give two hoots about the people there.
At least that’s clear as day. I feel sorry for Ireland - the country with the most to lose in the EU. Let’s give them some of our vaccines
Ireland isn't actually a very big country. We could probably do it.
6.5 million people - we've got enough on order...
And how many over 70s?
Can't be more than 1m, that's a small number.
Not to the EU vaccination procurement team......
Tbh, we should give them 2m AZ doses over the next few weeks so they can fully jab their over 70s. It's a small sacrifice for us and it prevents any kind of risk of border checks.
We will give them to them (in UK Aid boxes) when we're good and ready, and not before.
They can't be seen to have won anything from this whatsoever.
Giving 1.4m doses to the Republic isn't a win for anyone other than common sense to prevent a hard border on the island. The idea just seems mental to me because there will have to be a border checking to see if vaccine doses are being taken into NI.
I can't see how it does prevent it.
The Republic are responsible for policing the border - if it needs policing.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
It's surely option 2 coupled with an offer to integrate Ireland into the highly successful UK vaccine programme "to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland". It is the only way out of this as bringing us all back from the brink.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
Isn't that because they'd have to admit that Brexit is useless at preventing immigration, because its' whjat the Tories' backers want, cheap labour etc.?
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
If is about recording, why not just get Pfizer to do it? Why go to the extreme measure of invoking article 16?
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
Happily we have got Novavax delivering in 8-10 weeks. Any disruption will have a limited overall effect.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
And they don't exactly appear to be acting in a calm and collected manner. We have had EU folk claiming thar the UK is trying to start a war, that AZN are lying about everything from their contract to how good their vaccine is...
Another interesting point is that the EU are claiming that individual countries are free to do their own thing. So we could come to a bilateral agreement with Ireland to provide some of our vaccine if they let us import (a far greater amount) from there?
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
And they don't exactly appear to be acting in a calm and collected manner. We have had EU folk claiming thar the UK is trying to start a war, that AZN are lying about everything from their contract to how good their vaccine is...
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
Happily we have got Novavax delivering in 8-10 weeks. Any disruption will have a limited overall effect.
I think the issue, to the extent that it exists, is purely about UK people who have had first dose Pfizer, but whose second dose might be in jeopardy.
We're not in any serious danger of being starved of jabs.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
If is about recording, why not just get Pfizer to do it? Why go to the extreme measure of invoking article 16?
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that at the moment the groundwork is being laid as a threat. They could be bluffing.
Another interesting point is that the EU are claiming that individual countries are free to do their own thing. So we could come to a bilateral agreement with Ireland to provide some of our vaccine if they let us import (a far greater amount) from there?
The problem is that Ireland is only due 1/27th of what the EU programme is so they won't have any volume to export here. We should just make an offer to Ireland to join our programme, it's clear that we have enough supply for them as well and it won't make a difference to the overall speed here. No quid quo pro, just a genuine offer. That way the EU won't need to export vaccines to Ireland and no checks on the border.
That from Adam Boulton is astonishing considering how pro EU he is
Just need Ian Dunt to condemn the EU to make it surreal
And of course Nicola
It has to be Meeks for me.
He must have insulted every Leaver on pb.com many, many times with his ridiculous assertions.
Meeks seems to be maintaining a "dignified silence" on Twitter. Or at least a silence.
I don't think any of this will or should change anyone's mind on brexit (and I expect ongoing polling to bear that out). This is about some hilariously inept personalities and about aspects of the EU from which we were always semi-detached anyway. Had there been no brexit I would have counted it a catastrophic failure on the part of a UK PM not to have kept us out of the joint scheme anyway, and I think under many Conservative governments that would have happened.
Has there ever in history been an international crisis of this magnitude which has been so completely and utterly hilarious? I realise and regret that it will cost lives, but most international crises do that one way or another.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
If is about recording, why not just get Pfizer to do it? Why go to the extreme measure of invoking article 16?
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that at the moment the groundwork is being laid as a threat. They could be bluffing.
I suspect you are right that they will, in the end, be bluffing. Who thought they would go this far though?
They've thrown away all sorts of good will for no gain.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
Happily we have got Novavax delivering in 8-10 weeks. Any disruption will have a limited overall effect.
I think the issue, to the extent that it exists, is purely about UK people who have had first dose Pfizer, but whose second dose might be in jeopardy.
We're not in any serious danger of being starved of jabs.
Pfizer will have to supply those doses from the US, it's a public health risk to not give people their second dose.
Given the Common Travel Area and the cross-border traffic in Ireland, there's actually quite a strong self-interest case for the UK to help the Republic with vaccines once we get supply ramped up a bit more,
Another interesting point is that the EU are claiming that individual countries are free to do their own thing. So we could come to a bilateral agreement with Ireland to provide some of our vaccine if they let us import (a far greater amount) from there?
The problem is that Ireland is only due 1/27th of what the EU programme is so they won't have any volume to export here. We should just make an offer to Ireland to join our programme, it's clear that we have enough supply for them as well and it won't make a difference to the overall speed here. No quid quo pro, just a genuine offer. That way the EU won't need to export vaccines to Ireland and no checks on the border.
But if Pfizer transported 8m doses, say to the Irish border, would it count as an Irish export or a German export if it then crossed into NI?
Given the Common Travel Area and the cross-border traffic in Ireland, there's actually quite a strong self-interest case for the UK to help the Republic with vaccines once we get supply ramped up a bit more,
Yes, we should make Ireland the offer to simply join our programme, we could easily do 50k per day for Ireland. Within existing supplies.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
If is about recording, why not just get Pfizer to do it? Why go to the extreme measure of invoking article 16?
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that at the moment the groundwork is being laid as a threat. They could be bluffing.
They could - but the more they ratchet things up the harder it will be to back down.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
Happily we have got Novavax delivering in 8-10 weeks. Any disruption will have a limited overall effect.
I think the issue, to the extent that it exists, is purely about UK people who have had first dose Pfizer, but whose second dose might be in jeopardy.
We're not in any serious danger of being starved of jabs.
Pfizer will have to supply those doses from the US, it's a public health risk to not give people their second dose.
Is it? I don't know what the effectiveness of Pfizer as a single jab is. Bear in mind we are already ignoring Pfizer advice on second jabs. If we are due 20m jabs and choose to use all of them on first doses, they aren't presumably obliged to rush to supply us with 20m more just because we haven't chosen to only vaccinate 10m people.
Given the Common Travel Area and the cross-border traffic in Ireland, there's actually quite a strong self-interest case for the UK to help the Republic with vaccines once we get supply ramped up a bit more,
The number of times I heard the word solidarity today suggests that won't go down all that well in Brussels. They'll send their enforcers round to take 26/27 of whatever the UK gives.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
If is about recording, why not just get Pfizer to do it? Why go to the extreme measure of invoking article 16?
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that at the moment the groundwork is being laid as a threat. They could be bluffing.
I suspect you are right that they will, in the end, be bluffing. Who thought they would go this far though?
They've thrown away all sorts of good will for no gain.
You're playing a game of chess when your opponent ostentatiously takes out a revolver and starts putting bullets in the chamber. Obviously it doesn't affect the position on the board.
Another interesting point is that the EU are claiming that individual countries are free to do their own thing. So we could come to a bilateral agreement with Ireland to provide some of our vaccine if they let us import (a far greater amount) from there?
The problem is that Ireland is only due 1/27th of what the EU programme is so they won't have any volume to export here. We should just make an offer to Ireland to join our programme, it's clear that we have enough supply for them as well and it won't make a difference to the overall speed here. No quid quo pro, just a genuine offer. That way the EU won't need to export vaccines to Ireland and no checks on the border.
But if Pfizer transported 8m doses, say to the Irish border, would it count as an Irish export or a German export if it then crossed into NI?
Belgian export under rules of origin and subject to this export mechanism.
So how do we increase vacc. supply so there is genuinely more now (or soon) rather than arguing over the same pie?
One possibility I can spot is for Sanofi to abandon their vaccine attempt (which I assume they are keeping manufacturing capacity aside for) and turn their manufacturing over to one of the other vaccines - Valneva looks the likeliest, as the French will never agree to AZN, and Pfizer has big issues concerning usability.
Sanofi have already agreed to produce the Pfizer jab under license I believe.
There's actually a lot of this going on right now, and this is another reason to get increasingly comfortable about vaccine supply going forward.
So: Bayer has already started manufacturing on behalf of CureVac, and both Novartis and Sanofi will be making the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine. The Serum Institute of India is making both the AZN and Novavax vaccines.
I haven't yet seen any announcements from other people producing Moderna. But I presume they're in negotiations with people.
Maybe - but I suspect that will be quite difficult. Moderna has what is for them seriously valuable IP in terms of formulating the mRNA in lipid nanoparticles for delivery, and some of that is likely to be commercial secrets rather than patentable processes. Getting them to share might take some effort.
Is it done very differently to CureVac and Pfizer?
I posted a link a few days back from someone who had listed the various components listed for the respective vaccines, and there were significant differences between Pfizer and Moderna. The details of how it's actually manufactured are obviously not public, but the characteristics of the lipid blob which encapsulates the active mRNA are important both for the stability of the molecule (which otherwise would degrade very rapidly), and getting it into cells once injected, so that it can do its stuff.
Given they've worked on this for a decade or more, I think we can guess that it is important and commercially very valuable.
The heart of Novavax's technology is not the S protein fragment used (it's a protein vaccine), but the nanoparticle used as an adjuvant (Matrix-M is their trademarked name for it) which is based on saponin, a glycoside extracted from bark of the Soapbark Tree (Quillaja saponaria Molina), grown at certain latitudes in Chile.
That from Adam Boulton is astonishing considering how pro EU he is
Just need Ian Dunt to condemn the EU to make it surreal
And of course Nicola
It has to be Meeks for me.
He must have insulted every Leaver on pb.com many, many times with his ridiculous assertions.
Meeks seems to be maintaining a "dignified silence" on Twitter. Or at least a silence.
I don't think any of this will or should change anyone's mind on brexit (and I expect ongoing polling to bear that out). This is about some hilariously inept personalities and about aspects of the EU from which we were always semi-detached anyway. Had there been no brexit I would have counted it a catastrophic failure on the part of a UK PM not to have kept us out of the joint scheme anyway, and I think under many Conservative governments that would have happened.
Has there ever in history been an international crisis of this magnitude which has been so completely and utterly hilarious? I realise and regret that it will cost lives, but most international crises do that one way or another.
Given the Common Travel Area and the cross-border traffic in Ireland, there's actually quite a strong self-interest case for the UK to help the Republic with vaccines once we get supply ramped up a bit more,
We absolutely should - as I mentioned a few days ago. There are also of course historical instances where lots of people in Ireland died as a result of British actions, and whilst this wouldn't make up for that, it would be extremely fitting.
But the British taxpayers who footed this bill (or will foot it in coming decades) must come first.
So a bunch of people are saying as how this is it for remain, etc. The thing is that there were always two, not entirely compatible, reasons to go with remain.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
I heard that interview. He came away with the astonishing claim that no Express reader was racist.
I laughed when I saw it.
Jones said his son had told him he felt sick when he'd heard his dad was becoming the Express editor. It transpired that his son attends Eton so it wasn't entirely clear whether it was ideological or just shame at pops punting news for the plebs.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
If is about recording, why not just get Pfizer to do it? Why go to the extreme measure of invoking article 16?
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that at the moment the groundwork is being laid as a threat. They could be bluffing.
I suspect you are right that they will, in the end, be bluffing. Who thought they would go this far though?
They've thrown away all sorts of good will for no gain.
You're playing a game of chess when your opponent ostentatiously takes out a revolver and starts putting bullets in the chamber. Obviously it doesn't affect the position on the board.
And taken a massive dump on table for good measure.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
All it now take to derail the UK's vaccine program is someone in Brussels to tick "no" rather than "yes" on a form.
Happily we have got Novavax delivering in 8-10 weeks. Any disruption will have a limited overall effect.
I think the issue, to the extent that it exists, is purely about UK people who have had first dose Pfizer, but whose second dose might be in jeopardy.
We're not in any serious danger of being starved of jabs.
Pfizer will have to supply those doses from the US, it's a public health risk to not give people their second dose.
Is it? I don't know what the effectiveness of Pfizer as a single jab is. Bear in mind we are already ignoring Pfizer advice on second jabs. If we are due 20m jabs and choose to use all of them on first doses, they aren't presumably obliged to rush to supply us with 20m more just because we haven't chosen to only vaccinate 10m people.
We're still going to give them, just after a delayed timetable. We're getting 40m doses and once we hit 20m first doses will stop.
Given the Common Travel Area and the cross-border traffic in Ireland, there's actually quite a strong self-interest case for the UK to help the Republic with vaccines once we get supply ramped up a bit more,
The number of times I heard the word solidarity today suggests that won't go down all that well in Brussels. They'll send their enforcers round to take 26/27 of whatever the UK gives.
Given the Common Travel Area and the cross-border traffic in Ireland, there's actually quite a strong self-interest case for the UK to help the Republic with vaccines once we get supply ramped up a bit more,
The number of times I heard the word solidarity today suggests that won't go down all that well in Brussels. They'll send their enforcers round to take 26/27 of whatever the UK gives.
No problem, we can offer to jab people in NI. We'll have the centres all set up, after all.
That from Adam Boulton is astonishing considering how pro EU he is
Just need Ian Dunt to condemn the EU to make it surreal
And of course Nicola
It has to be Meeks for me.
He must have insulted every Leaver on pb.com many, many times with his ridiculous assertions.
Meeks seems to be maintaining a "dignified silence" on Twitter. Or at least a silence.
I don't think any of this will or should change anyone's mind on brexit (and I expect ongoing polling to bear that out). This is about some hilariously inept personalities and about aspects of the EU from which we were always semi-detached anyway. Had there been no brexit I would have counted it a catastrophic failure on the part of a UK PM not to have kept us out of the joint scheme anyway, and I think under many Conservative governments that would have happened.
Has there ever in history been an international crisis of this magnitude which has been so completely and utterly hilarious? I realise and regret that it will cost lives, but most international crises do that one way or another.
Fashoda?
I'm a committed remainer, but it might be the best time to sail a couple of Aircraft Carriers 12 miles off the coast of Europe.
So a bunch of people are saying as how this is it for remain, etc. The thing is that there were always two, not entirely compatible, reasons to go with remain.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
I don't think in the long term it will really affect things one way or another, but it is highlighting one of the downsides, given the pressurising they do to stop members going their own way, and removes its ability to pretend it is a beacon of rationality and good governance. It doesn't diminish the principle of the institution, but it does tarnish its reality a bit - and they clearly need to be better at self evaluating when something goes wrong.
So a bunch of people are saying as how this is it for remain, etc. The thing is that there were always two, not entirely compatible, reasons to go with remain.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
You voted remain because you were scared the EU would bully us?
So a bunch of people are saying as how this is it for remain, etc. The thing is that there were always two, not entirely compatible, reasons to go with remain.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
Massive influence? we could not even stop Junker ffs. We were semi detached and mostly ignored. Gotta be all the way in or all the way out.
It's surely option 2 coupled with an offer to integrate Ireland into the highly successful UK vaccine programme "to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland". It is the only way out of this as bringing us all back from the brink.
Well, I suppose we could try option 2, and hope they're having a hissy fit/bluffing.
Of course, if the Irish stick with the EU vaccine program (to avoid pissing the other 26 off) then we could be on to option 3 - followed, in due course, by sealing the Irish border on sanitary grounds.
Like I said earlier, the Commission has not thought any of this through at all.
Given the Common Travel Area and the cross-border traffic in Ireland, there's actually quite a strong self-interest case for the UK to help the Republic with vaccines once we get supply ramped up a bit more,
The number of times I heard the word solidarity today suggests that won't go down all that well in Brussels. They'll send their enforcers round to take 26/27 of whatever the UK gives.
No problem, we can offer to jab people in NI. We'll have the centres all set up, after all.
That from Adam Boulton is astonishing considering how pro EU he is
Just need Ian Dunt to condemn the EU to make it surreal
And of course Nicola
It has to be Meeks for me.
He must have insulted every Leaver on pb.com many, many times with his ridiculous assertions.
Meeks seems to be maintaining a "dignified silence" on Twitter. Or at least a silence.
I don't think any of this will or should change anyone's mind on brexit (and I expect ongoing polling to bear that out). This is about some hilariously inept personalities and about aspects of the EU from which we were always semi-detached anyway. Had there been no brexit I would have counted it a catastrophic failure on the part of a UK PM not to have kept us out of the joint scheme anyway, and I think under many Conservative governments that would have happened.
Has there ever in history been an international crisis of this magnitude which has been so completely and utterly hilarious? I realise and regret that it will cost lives, but most international crises do that one way or another.
Fashoda?
I'm a committed remainer, but it might be the best time to sail a couple of Aircraft Carriers 12 miles off the coast of Europe.
Good luck with that the way the PoW needs a new battery or soldered connection or whatever makes the propellers go round.
AIUI, all Kitchener did with Marchand was be polite and firm and stuff him full of whisky, which the latter must have enjoyed after walking across the Sahara the long way round. But K. did have a few gunboats on the Nile.
So a bunch of people are saying as how this is it for remain, etc. The thing is that there were always two, not entirely compatible, reasons to go with remain.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
You voted remain because you were scared the EU would bully us?
They are basically saying it's better to be the bully than the person being bullied.
Was clear from the start they were just using the border for their own political interest. They don't give two hoots about the people there.
At least that’s clear as day. I feel sorry for Ireland - the country with the most to lose in the EU. Let’s give them some of our vaccines
Ireland isn't actually a very big country. We could probably do it.
6.5 million people - we've got enough on order...
And how many over 70s?
Can't be more than 1m, that's a small number.
Not to the EU vaccination procurement team......
Tbh, we should give them 2m AZ doses over the next few weeks so they can fully jab their over 70s. It's a small sacrifice for us and it prevents any kind of risk of border checks.
We will give them to them (in UK Aid boxes) when we're good and ready, and not before.
They can't be seen to have won anything from this whatsoever.
Giving 1.4m doses to the Republic isn't a win for anyone other than common sense to prevent a hard border on the island. The idea just seems mental to me because there will have to be a border checking to see if vaccine doses are being taken into NI.
So a bunch of people are saying as how this is it for remain, etc. The thing is that there were always two, not entirely compatible, reasons to go with remain.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
You voted remain because you were scared the EU would bully us?
My dad voted remain for that reason - he said they'd screw us if we left so we should stay. Anecdotally helpful reminder that not everyone voted Leave or Remain for the most obvious of reasons.
Was clear from the start they were just using the border for their own political interest. They don't give two hoots about the people there.
At least that’s clear as day. I feel sorry for Ireland - the country with the most to lose in the EU. Let’s give them some of our vaccines
Ireland isn't actually a very big country. We could probably do it.
6.5 million people - we've got enough on order...
And how many over 70s?
Can't be more than 1m, that's a small number.
Not to the EU vaccination procurement team......
Tbh, we should give them 2m AZ doses over the next few weeks so they can fully jab their over 70s. It's a small sacrifice for us and it prevents any kind of risk of border checks.
We will give them to them (in UK Aid boxes) when we're good and ready, and not before.
They can't be seen to have won anything from this whatsoever.
Giving 1.4m doses to the Republic isn't a win for anyone other than common sense to prevent a hard border on the island. The idea just seems mental to me because there will have to be a border checking to see if vaccine doses are being taken into NI.
Don't worry, just open it in Acrobat and you can read the entire thing.
Yes, I saw that too. The EU is entering some kind of psychosis.
I think Ursula von der Leyen is badly out of her depth. People laughed about Juncker but he was a much more serious politician in comparison.
Juncker was at least a former Prime Minister.
I don't know how much truth there is in this because I don't follow German politics, but it has been reported that von der Leyen, when German Defence Minister, became embroiled in a number of procurement scandals...
So a bunch of people are saying as how this is it for remain, etc. The thing is that there were always two, not entirely compatible, reasons to go with remain.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
China is a huge power and can push people around. Would I want the UK to be "a part of China"?
No.
Note how polling on EU membership in near-EU states like Switzerland and Norway is massively against ever joining.
"A 2018 survey of public opinion in Switzerland found only 3% considered that joining the EU was a feasible option."
Was clear from the start they were just using the border for their own political interest. They don't give two hoots about the people there.
At least that’s clear as day. I feel sorry for Ireland - the country with the most to lose in the EU. Let’s give them some of our vaccines
Ireland isn't actually a very big country. We could probably do it.
6.5 million people - we've got enough on order...
And how many over 70s?
Can't be more than 1m, that's a small number.
Not to the EU vaccination procurement team......
Tbh, we should give them 2m AZ doses over the next few weeks so they can fully jab their over 70s. It's a small sacrifice for us and it prevents any kind of risk of border checks.
We will give them to them (in UK Aid boxes) when we're good and ready, and not before.
They can't be seen to have won anything from this whatsoever.
Giving 1.4m doses to the Republic isn't a win for anyone other than common sense to prevent a hard border on the island. The idea just seems mental to me because there will have to be a border checking to see if vaccine doses are being taken into NI.
Hold on a minute, does that mean that there will be EU checks on the island of Ireland to ensure no vaccines are being shipped to NI?
That strikes me as a complete disaster idea.
If they are seriously invoking article 16, that means that they absolutely are intending to stop exports to the UK at all costs. Otherwise, why do it? Ireland doesn't make anything.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
At the moment i think the EU are just saying that this is about controls - recording when shipments leave the EU. They say they want to know what's leaving. They haven't actually banned exports yet i think.
If is about recording, why not just get Pfizer to do it? Why go to the extreme measure of invoking article 16?
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that at the moment the groundwork is being laid as a threat. They could be bluffing.
I suspect you are right that they will, in the end, be bluffing. Who thought they would go this far though?
They've thrown away all sorts of good will for no gain.
You're playing a game of chess when your opponent ostentatiously takes out a revolver and starts putting bullets in the chamber. Obviously it doesn't affect the position on the board.
And taken a massive dump on table for good measure.
Lol. I've actually been an arbiter at a chess congress and seen boards thrown over but fortunately no guns as yet.
Comments
https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/status/1355223741547077632
Must have been some serious arm twisting.
And having a US company that won't be able to send any of its products back to the US??
Have they thought this through?
Daily Express Editor "We're never doing an anti immigrant story again"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rlpl?xtor=CS8-1000-[Discovery_Cards]-[Multi_Site]-[SL03]-[PS_SOUNDS~N~~TheMediaShowDailyExpress]
Actions (or lack of them) that will make Gavin Williamson be carried aloft in triumph at the next Teacher Union Conference.
You have been warned.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55842611
Activists who dug a tunnel near Euston station in protest against the £106bn HS2 rail project are at "risk of drowning", officials have warned.
Bailiffs are still evicting people from the Euston Square Gardens camp after protesters dug a tunnel they claim is 100ft (30m) long.
Whilst I support their cause, I certainly don't support their actions. Personally I'd starve them out.
I was hoping 2021 would be an improvement on 2020.
What a time to be alive.
Which also makes it look like this is specifically targetting the UK (which it is, obvs)
We're not in any serious danger of being starved of jabs.
https://twitter.com/jillongovt/status/1355226676591001605?s=20
https://twitter.com/rafagaceves/status/1355152730210369539?s=20
Has there ever in history been an international crisis of this magnitude which has been so completely and utterly hilarious? I realise and regret that it will cost lives, but most international crises do that one way or another.
They've thrown away all sorts of good will for no gain.
I still haven't recovered from watching Ride and Prejudice Bridgerton.
But the British taxpayers who footed this bill (or will foot it in coming decades) must come first.
One, the Culturally European one, about how Europe is the centre of civilisation, we should all be friends, we want the freedom to live and work in the EU and all live happily together. This dominated the media debate, and of the people I know who were most gutted by the vote, this was their view; which is perhaps why it did.
The other view is realpolitik. The EU is a giant power bloc. Its on our doorstep. As members, as the 2nd biggest country inside, we sat in its highest councils and had massive influence - not always decisive, but big influence. This wasn't mentioned much in the media except by a few oldies like Michael Heseltine. But it was the foundation of our foreign policy for decades.
Now we're out. And when you're a medium sized country outside a big power bloc, they don't always play nice.
Should the EU be making a vaccine trade war? No, absolutely not This is short sighted and morally repugnant. . But discredit remain? No, this is exactly why I voted remain.
a) panicking because they are in a bad situation with their vaccine supply; and
b) have bought a bit too much into their own rhetoric about the power of the bloc, and therefore how much they can push others and get away with it.
Being a big bloc does mean you can push others around, but it's not always a good idea.
But they're not going to get more vaccines.....
Of course, if the Irish stick with the EU vaccine program (to avoid pissing the other 26 off) then we could be on to option 3 - followed, in due course, by sealing the Irish border on sanitary grounds.
Like I said earlier, the Commission has not thought any of this through at all.
https://twitter.com/columeastwood/status/1355220946903306240?s=20
AIUI, all Kitchener did with Marchand was be polite and firm and stuff him full of whisky, which the latter must have enjoyed after walking across the Sahara the long way round. But K. did have a few gunboats on the Nile.
I don't know how much truth there is in this because I don't follow German politics, but it has been reported that von der Leyen, when German Defence Minister, became embroiled in a number of procurement scandals...
No.
Note how polling on EU membership in near-EU states like Switzerland and Norway is massively against ever joining.
"A 2018 survey of public opinion in Switzerland found only 3% considered that joining the EU was a feasible option."
https://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/norway.4n5#
"Anti-EU sentiment strong in Norway: poll"
If it's that great being in the EU you'd think these countries would want to join. They definitely do not