MIAMI, March 13, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- Carnival Cruise Line announced today that it is pausing operations immediately across its fleet of ships based in North America and will resume them on Friday, April 10. All ships currently at sea will continue their voyages and return to their homeports as scheduled.
Throughout this COVID-19 situation that has now turned into a global pandemic, we have implemented higher and higher levels of screening, monitoring and sanitation protocols to protect the health and safety of our guests, crew and the communities we serve. While Carnival has not had a diagnosed case linked to our operation we realize this situation is bigger than the cruise industry and we will continue to do our part to support public officials to manage and contain this unprecedented public health challenge.
We are contacting booked guests directly regarding their cruise and their options.
Our guests have been tremendously patient and understanding as we have reacted to a rapidly changing situation and a desire to be responsive to authorities in the U.S. and the destinations we visit. We are very sorry that this decision will disrupt the vacation plans for our guests and look forward to resuming operations and providing our guests safe, fun and memorable vacations. And it goes without saying, we can only do that with the support of our outstanding onboard team members who have been nothing short of amazing during this prolonged period of challenge.
Or perhaps it just shows that the Mail will stick anything on the front page if they think it will sell their paper.
Nah, no point just taking shots at the Mail at a time like this. The press as a whole has been up and down like a yo-yo and it isn't just the Mail. For the same two days, here's one of our nation's supposed "newspapers of record"
To be fair most of that "up and down" motion has been between the peaks of "things ain't looking all that good" and the troughs of "THE APOCALYPSE IS COMING, YOUR LIFE IS NOT GOING TO BE THE SAME AGAIN AND PEOPLE YOU LOVE ARE ABOUT TO DIE" but in terms of the impact on me of the emotional texture formed by the buffeting of successive days' media tones, I think John Cleese said it best:
If we are 3 weeks ahead of Italy, then we'll have just enough time to see if people in Italy are scared enough to react appropriately, or whether lockdowns are futile.
Anecdote: Just been out, in a large town in the North West on mainline train routes that just today reported its first case of COVID-19: Wetherspoons: about a third as busy as usual on a Friday night, especially early in the evening when it was far quieter than usual Local pub with typically older clientele: Not noticeably different from normal
Went to watch my daughter play in a youth orchestra earlier this evening. Talking to the lady next to me while waiting for it to start and between pieces. About half way through I happened to mention that I would need to dash off very quickly at the end of the concert, as I had somewhere else to go (just so I wouldn't seem rude). To which she replied that she would need to leave quickly too, to go back and check on her husband, who has been tested positive for Corona virus! Asked if he was ill, and apparently after two days of feeling really rough he is starting to feel better. I sat next to this person for an hour who is almost certainly a carrier and it seems odds-on that I will probably get it next week. Plus who knows how many people sitting around.
How many other people are walking around knowing that they are probable carriers? Why is the messaging not getting through?
I'm really shocked that someone could be so casual about passing on the virus.
I think we've made the right decision in the UK if this is anything to go by.
I know it seems trivial but just been wondering about the football. From what I van work out: - Liverpool handed title (all clubs concede they have already won it) - Same clubs from last year’s Champions League qualify again (very lucky for Tottenham) - Arsenal take City’s place as finished 5th last season and City are banned - Leicester, Wolves, Utd enter extended qualifying phase next season - Top two promoted from Championship - No relegation from Premiership - Five relegated next season
Or perhaps it just shows that the Mail will stick anything on the front page if they think it will sell their paper.
Nah, no point just taking shots at the Mail at a time like this. The press as a whole has been up and down like a yo-yo and it isn't just the Mail. For the same two days, here's one of our nation's supposed "newspapers of record"
Good news is no news? I remember my English teacher using that as an essay subject back in the 70s. If it was true then, it looks even more true now.
Pretty much the first thing that expert Michael Osterholm says on this video is that the virus is likely to make a comeback in those parts of China under lockdown when people start going back to work again.
I hope he was introduced as a motivational speaker. Just to emphasise how out of his depth he is.
And watching that, he seems absolutely crazed. Anyone taking him seriously is insane.
He is not insane, but he certainly is not expressing himself well.
Herd immunity is indeed desirable, but the price to achieve it appears to be hundreds of thousands of deaths - that is what is outraging him.
Are a quarter of a million deaths an acceptable number?
Depends what the alternative is, doesn't it? Which is effectively what the good professor himself said.
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is, because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
I hope he was introduced as a motivational speaker. Just to emphasise how out of his depth he is.
And watching that, he seems absolutely crazed. Anyone taking him seriously is insane.
He is not insane, but he certainly is not expressing himself well.
Herd immunity is indeed desirable, but the price to achieve it appears to be hundreds of thousands of deaths - that is what is outraging him.
Are a quarter of a million deaths an acceptable number?
Depends what the alternative is, doesn't it? Which is effectively what the good professor himself said.
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
Who knows what the outcome of the Chinese experiment will be? The virus is not eliminated there, and as soon as everyone is released form the welded-up apartments it will undoubtedly spread again.
The UK scientific advisors clearly don't think that would work in the UK, and are advising what they think is best to mitigate the effects of this outbreak in the UK in the long run.
I hope he was introduced as a motivational speaker. Just to emphasise how out of his depth he is.
And watching that, he seems absolutely crazed. Anyone taking him seriously is insane.
Of course, the question "lockdown now" proponents need to address is "when does it end"?
As the Professor of Epidemiology pointed out "once every case in the world has been resolved" - so, 18 months, minimum?
I'm not advocating lockdown for the UK right now but I think the suggestion would be that it would end in 2 or 3 weeks, then you'd go to something more relaxed like the Japan / South Korea model that's basically normal life with a few changes. However by that time there will be more evidence from other countries about what happens after a lockdown.
I hope he was introduced as a motivational speaker. Just to emphasise how out of his depth he is.
And watching that, he seems absolutely crazed. Anyone taking him seriously is insane.
He is not insane, but he certainly is not expressing himself well.
Herd immunity is indeed desirable, but the price to achieve it appears to be hundreds of thousands of deaths - that is what is outraging him.
Are a quarter of a million deaths an acceptable number?
Depends what the alternative is, doesn't it? Which is effectively what the good professor himself said.
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is, because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
Yeah, the big thing is whether Johnson can hold the course while other nations see a complete levelling off in cases. While in the long run the UK approach *should* be better, it won't feel like it. I suppose that the upside is that what these scared people will do is... isolate themselves.
I wonder if even a small amount of people having herd immunity (say 33%) would do anything. If 33% have immunity in the UK, then in the next wave it should grow relatively slower in the UK than elsewhere, and with some of the relatively less disruptive social distancing measures it may be able to even produce the Rn to below 1.
I see a lot of long term benefits of the UK approach, will be very hard to explain mid panic tough.
I think I'm coming around to the government's plans. However, I'd like a public data release of all the data that went into this decision and how it leads to getting transmission below R1.
The government may have good medical and scientific planning but the data analytics is notoriously poor. I think this is an area where crowd sourcing could be of real use because there are better data analysts and data scientists in the country than those who work for the government and were involved in this decision making process.
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
Who knows what the outcome of the Chinese experiment will be? The virus is not eliminated there, and as soon as everyone is released form the welded-up apartments it will undoubtedly spread again.
The UK scientific advisors clearly don't think that would work in the UK, and are advising what they think is best to mitigate the effects of this outbreak in the UK in the long run.
Which continues to miss the point. The Plan is talking about inflicting a similar level of fatalities on the UK population as WW2 did. There is nothing anyone can do to make that an acceptable plan.
The experts might think a cull is price of herd immunity. Those in the herd will disagree.
People will do their own lockdowns and the economy will hit hard because govt policy is to kill people. People will do their best to avoid catching it.
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
Who knows what the outcome of the Chinese experiment will be? The virus is not eliminated there, and as soon as everyone is released form the welded-up apartments it will undoubtedly spread again.
The UK scientific advisors clearly don't think that would work in the UK, and are advising what they think is best to mitigate the effects of this outbreak in the UK in the long run.
Which continues to miss the point. The Plan is talking about inflicting a similar level of fatalities on the UK population as WW2 did. There is nothing anyone can do to make that an acceptable plan.
The experts might think a cull is price of herd immunity. Those in the herd will disagree.
People will do their own lockdowns and the economy will hit hard because govt policy is to kill people. People will do their best to avoid catching it.
I'm not missing the point. It can be an acceptable plan if the alternative is worse. That's the judgement the scientific advisors have made.
Nice to see the corbynista WW2 line gaining traction here.
I hope he was introduced as a motivational speaker. Just to emphasise how out of his depth he is.
And watching that, he seems absolutely crazed. Anyone taking him seriously is insane.
He is not insane, but he certainly is not expressing himself well.
Herd immunity is indeed desirable, but the price to achieve it appears to be hundreds of thousands of deaths - that is what is outraging him.
Are a quarter of a million deaths an acceptable number?
Depends what the alternative is, doesn't it? Which is effectively what the good professor himself said.
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
Who knows what the outcome of the Chinese experiment will be? The virus is not eliminated there, and as soon as everyone is released form the welded-up apartments it will undoubtedly spread again.
The UK scientific advisors clearly don't think that would work in the UK, and are advising what they think is best to mitigate the effects of this outbreak in the UK in the long run.
Pretty much the first thing that expert Michael Osterholm says on this video is that the virus is likely to make a comeback in those parts of China under lockdown when people start going back to work again.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw
Michael Osterholm ?
The internationally recognized expert in infectious disease epidemiology?
That Michael Osterholm?
Give me a motivational speaker with funky graphs any day of the week....
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
Who knows what the outcome of the Chinese experiment will be? The virus is not eliminated there, and as soon as everyone is released form the welded-up apartments it will undoubtedly spread again.
The UK scientific advisors clearly don't think that would work in the UK, and are advising what they think is best to mitigate the effects of this outbreak in the UK in the long run.
Which continues to miss the point. The Plan is talking about inflicting a similar level of fatalities on the UK population as WW2 did. There is nothing anyone can do to make that an acceptable plan.
The experts might think a cull is price of herd immunity. Those in the herd will disagree.
People will do their own lockdowns and the economy will hit hard because govt policy is to kill people. People will do their best to avoid catching it.
What if the alternative is quarterly lock downs which result in a higher overall death rate and larger hit to the economy?
Of all the armchair epidemiologists hire the stupidest I've come across. You clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about and are stuck on this "everything the UK does is terrible" idea, even though this is the same path taken by Japan who now have a low transmission rate and the virus looks to be under control there.
Additionally, it makes sense that national or herd immunity be achieved through very low risk groups building it up. It's not such a big deal for kids, young people and middle aged people to get it. With good healthcare the death rate will be extremely low and health provisioning will not be anywhere near what would be required with a mass out break post lockdown.
It's amazing that you're exactly the type of person who decried the anti expert attitude of leavers, but this is now policy led by experts and you're still being a whiny bitch about it. Honestly, if Boris announced that the government had found a cure for this you'd still find fault somewhere. It's do transparent what your agenda is.
What if the alternative is quarterly lock downs which result in a higher overall death rate and larger hit to the economy?
Of all the armchair epidemiologists hire the stupidest I've come across. You clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about and are stuck on this "everything the UK does is terrible" idea, even though this is the same path taken by Japan who now have a low transmission rate and the virus looks to be under control there.
Additionally, it makes sense that national or herd immunity be achieved through very low risk groups building it up. It's not such a big deal for kids, young people and middle aged people to get it. With good healthcare the death rate will be extremely low and health provisioning will not be anywhere near what would be required with a mass out break post lockdown.
It's amazing that you're exactly the type of person who decried the anti expert attitude of leavers, but this is now policy led by experts and you're still being a whiny bitch about it. Honestly, if Boris announced that the government had found a cure for this you'd still find fault somewhere. It's do transparent what your agenda is.
Yes indeed, but the point is that emotional people are not rational.
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
Who knows what the outcome of the Chinese experiment will be? The virus is not eliminated there, and as soon as everyone is released form the welded-up apartments it will undoubtedly spread again.
The UK scientific advisors clearly don't think that would work in the UK, and are advising what they think is best to mitigate the effects of this outbreak in the UK in the long run.
Which continues to miss the point. The Plan is talking about inflicting a similar level of fatalities on the UK population as WW2 did. There is nothing anyone can do to make that an acceptable plan.
The experts might think a cull is price of herd immunity. Those in the herd will disagree.
People will do their own lockdowns and the economy will hit hard because govt policy is to kill people. People will do their best to avoid catching it.
Exactly. Maybe that's part of the plan, though what I've seen this evening in my home town has been counterintuitive. It appears to be the younger people who are staying in, presumably trying to avoid catching it, whereas the older ones are going to the pub as though it were a normal Friday.
I'm struggling with the government policy, because it seems to be to let it rip and have a whole lot of people catch it within a few days. How the h*ll are the hospitals going to cope? We don't really know how infectious it is, but I fear that it's being underestimated and the health system is going to be overwhelmed in short order.
The government can never be wrong, it can only evolve into new, greater forms of rightness
Your objection to the UK following a similar path to Singapore is?
I don't know what you think you're responding to.
You frequently criticise the UK Johnson Government for not following Asian models like Japan and Korea - but ignore the fact that the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar. Which suggests to me your criticism is more driven by dislike of the UK Johnson government than what it is doing compared to other countries.
This might sound frivolous but I wonder where all the people who are normally on cruises are going to go. A lot of them probably rent our their homes to other people while they're supposed to be on the cruises. We're talking about tens of thousands of people who might have a problem organising accommodation. (Not very important in the scheme of things of course, compared to coronavirus itself).
More Triage seems closer to fascism than Less Triage. The government's strategy was one that works from the (reasonable?) assumption that infection is inevitable, so how do we avoid More Triage? Spanish Flu came in three winter peaks! No thanks.
Apparently it is also good to infect the nation. If you comment on the 1% - 3% mortality rate then you are, apparently, an idiot.
It turns out that the tory interest in eugenics wasn't just a passing fancy.
A few people on here are showing their nasty side. This strategy, right or wrong, clearly comes from the scientific and medical positions in government. The desire to make political hay out of this awful situation shows what low lives some people are.
The mortality rate is highly dependent on age. If you say lock away all the vulnerable people (70+, or 50+ with other issues) then the remaining 80% of the population will have a mortality rate far far below that of the population as a whole.
According to the China data the mortality rate of confirmed cases in U50s was about 0.2%, or sub 0.1% once you add the fact that young people seem to be big on the whole asymptomatic spreading thing.
So that's 60000000, half get infected, mortality rate of 0.1% = 30,000 deaths while herd immunity is acquired. If you make the assumption that this is in the wild, and that whenever lockdowns stop the virus will just come roaring back then the UK approach makes a lot of sense, and will save a lot of lives compared to the lockdown-growth cycle.
How does PB feel about making up with enemies old and past, including family members?
Never. I have a list.
So does everyone else.
And you're on it.
After WWII the "Nazi Death List" for the UK in the event of invasion came to light - Communists, Trade Unionists, Labour MPs, homosexuals and so forth. Noel Coward was on the list and remarked "To think! The people I'd have been seen dead with."
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
You've been focusing a lot on schools - like I've said before that's complicated, it's not really clear what the effects of closing them are, and it may vary from place to place.
Singapore stopped public events like a month ago, sent masks to every household, did a monster data-based contact tracing effort that is probably hard to do in a free society, banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine, have been doing temperature screening for months... I mean, the whole thing is totally different to what the British have done. A lot of it's probably not really practical for the UK, which is why I think SK and Japan are better models for what the British *could* be doing - and they are generally shambling along in that direction, but way too late.
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
Can you see the difference between the responses? If you've come from anywhere in northern Italy you can't even get into Singapore unless you're a citizen or long-term resident, and if you are you have a temperature scan at the border, then give them your details and agree to 2 weeks of legally-mandated self-quarantine.
Meanwhile some days later the UK are advising people not to go *to* the specific areas that are under active lockdown unless they really need to, and if you come back from them you breeze back through the airport and there's unenforced advice to self-isolate.
I'm not saying that what Singapore did would necessarily have been practical for the UK but the idea that these two things are the same is not sensible.
Saudi Arabia suspends all international flights to kingdom
Saudi Arabia has suspended all international flights for two weeks, starting on Sunday, to prevent the spread of coronavirus, state news agency SPA said on Saturday, citing an official source at interior ministry.
Reuters reports the period will be considered as an exceptional official holiday for citizens and residents who are unable to return due to the suspension of flights or if they face quarantine after their return to the Kingdom, SPA cited the official as saying.
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
Can you see the difference between the responses? If you've come from anywhere in northern Italy you can't even get into Singapore unless you're a citizen or long-term resident, and if you are you have a temperature scan at the border, then give them your details and agree to 2 weeks of legally-mandated self-quarantine.
Meanwhile some days later the UK are advising people not to go *to* the specific areas that are under active lockdown unless they really need to, and if you come back from them you breeze back through the airport and there's unenforced advice to self-isolate.
I'm not saying that what Singapore did would necessarily have been practical for the UK but the idea that these two things are the same is not sensible.
Indeed. I still think the government are along a too lax approach to international travel. I understand the slow spread theory but international travel doesn't lend to that approach.
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
I'm not saying that what Singapore did would necessarily have been practical for the UK but the idea that these two things are the same is not sensible.
I'm not suggesting they're identical - how could they be - one's a city state of 5.6 million, the other a country of 66 million - we'll see if Singapore (or the US) ever extends a travel ban to the UK, given the volume of business from both - but I do dispute that the UK "has done nothing" - the UK is doing plenty - and will do more - and a lot of what its doing strategically is similar to Singapore. Let's see how China and Italy do coming out of their lockdowns. And what Japan does after it gives up pretending the Olympics are going ahead.
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
Can you see the difference between the responses? If you've come from anywhere in northern Italy you can't even get into Singapore unless you're a citizen or long-term resident, and if you are you have a temperature scan at the border, then give them your details and agree to 2 weeks of legally-mandated self-quarantine.
Meanwhile some days later the UK are advising people not to go *to* the specific areas that are under active lockdown unless they really need to, and if you come back from them you breeze back through the airport and there's unenforced advice to self-isolate.
I'm not saying that what Singapore did would necessarily have been practical for the UK but the idea that these two things are the same is not sensible.
Indeed. I still think the government are along a too lax approach to international travel. I understand the slow spread theory but international travel doesn't lend to that approach.
What would you do? Ground all flights (Saudi, Kuwait)? Impose bans on recent visitors to certain states (the US, Australia) - but still let in your own nationals? Like "schools" there are plenty of simplistic answers, but few simple ones.
the UK and Singapore (possibly the most successful of the three) approaches are very similar
???
What do you see as the differences?
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine.
The travel ban from Italy (and France and Germany), and self-quarantine starts on Sunday:
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
Can you see the difference between the responses? If you've come from anywhere in northern Italy you can't even get into Singapore unless you're a citizen or long-term resident, and if you are you have a temperature scan at the border, then give them your details and agree to 2 weeks of legally-mandated self-quarantine.
Meanwhile some days later the UK are advising people not to go *to* the specific areas that are under active lockdown unless they really need to, and if you come back from them you breeze back through the airport and there's unenforced advice to self-isolate.
I'm not saying that what Singapore did would necessarily have been practical for the UK but the idea that these two things are the same is not sensible.
Indeed. I still think the government are along a too lax approach to international travel. I understand the slow spread theory but international travel doesn't lend to that approach.
What would you do? Ground all flights (Saudi, Kuwait)? Impose bans on recent visitors to certain states (the US, Australia) - but still let in your own nationals? Like "schools" there are plenty of simplistic answers, but few simple ones.
The second option. Ban all foreign visitors from hot zones and implement mandatory quarantine for all returning British citizens/residents, even if it means opening up large temporary quarantine centres.
Went to watch my daughter play in a youth orchestra earlier this evening. Talking to the lady next to me while waiting for it to start and between pieces. About half way through I happened to mention that I would need to dash off very quickly at the end of the concert, as I had somewhere else to go (just so I wouldn't seem rude). To which she replied that she would need to leave quickly too, to go back and check on her husband, who has been tested positive for Corona virus! Asked if he was ill, and apparently after two days of feeling really rough he is starting to feel better. I sat next to this person for an hour who is almost certainly a carrier and it seems odds-on that I will probably get it next week. Plus who knows how many people sitting around.
How many other people are walking around knowing that they are probable carriers? Why is the messaging not getting through?
I'm a little envious of you. I think I'd quite like to get it.
Comments
The fact @Beibheirli_C is trying to make this partisan is telling.
Throughout this COVID-19 situation that has now turned into a global pandemic, we have implemented higher and higher levels of screening, monitoring and sanitation protocols to protect the health and safety of our guests, crew and the communities we serve. While Carnival has not had a diagnosed case linked to our operation we realize this situation is bigger than the cruise industry and we will continue to do our part to support public officials to manage and contain this unprecedented public health challenge.
We are contacting booked guests directly regarding their cruise and their options.
Our guests have been tremendously patient and understanding as we have reacted to a rapidly changing situation and a desire to be responsive to authorities in the U.S. and the destinations we visit. We are very sorry that this decision will disrupt the vacation plans for our guests and look forward to resuming operations and providing our guests safe, fun and memorable vacations. And it goes without saying, we can only do that with the support of our outstanding onboard team members who have been nothing short of amazing during this prolonged period of challenge.
https://www.carnivalcorp.com/news-releases/news-release-details/carnival-cruise-line-announces-pause-service
https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1237869446896611329
https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1238231027061067781
Read and weep.
To be fair most of that "up and down" motion has been between the peaks of "things ain't looking all that good" and the troughs of "THE APOCALYPSE IS COMING, YOUR LIFE IS NOT GOING TO BE THE SAME AGAIN AND PEOPLE YOU LOVE ARE ABOUT TO DIE" but in terms of the impact on me of the emotional texture formed by the buffeting of successive days' media tones, I think John Cleese said it best:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfnhmuZ27eQ
BTW - Perhaps you could clarify "The fact @Beibheirli_C is trying to make this partisan is telling."
Exactly what is it "Telling"?
Wetherspoons: about a third as busy as usual on a Friday night, especially early in the evening when it was far quieter than usual
Local pub with typically older clientele: Not noticeably different from normal
Yeah, what does the CMO or GCS know that he doesn't.
Epidemiology Professor vs Motivational Speaker:
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1238573667002523648?s=20
https://edailybuzz.com/2020/03/12/tomas-pueyo-wiki-bio-age-birthday-married-net-worth-education-ted-talk-wife/
And watching that, he seems absolutely crazed. Anyone taking him seriously is insane.
Thankfully, I have been spared the ultimate humiliation of being labelled a LibDem
Herd immunity is indeed desirable, but the price to achieve it appears to be hundreds of thousands of deaths - that is what is outraging him.
Are a quarter of a million deaths an acceptable number?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3URhJx0NSw
As the Professor of Epidemiology pointed out "once every case in the world has been resolved" - so, 18 months, minimum?
https://twitter.com/SeanTheRed72/status/1238560832872726539?s=20
The Professor can go on the TV and say we have no choice other than to expect a mortality of 1% rising to 10% in vulnerable groups and it may be the only plan in town. But people watching that think "What if I am in that 1%? My mum would be in the 10%".
They are not going to say "I agree - herd immunity is the way forward and my dead relatives are a price worth paying". They are going to say "Get me a vaccine" no matter how unreasonable that is, because for all their lives, a vaccine has always been the answer.
The Chinese were seen to build treatment centres. They may or may not have been effective, but at least they were seen to be trying which is rather different from our approach of wanting to consign a sizeable number of people to an early grave.
The UK scientific advisors clearly don't think that would work in the UK, and are advising what they think is best to mitigate the effects of this outbreak in the UK in the long run.
I wonder if even a small amount of people having herd immunity (say 33%) would do anything. If 33% have immunity in the UK, then in the next wave it should grow relatively slower in the UK than elsewhere, and with some of the relatively less disruptive social distancing measures it may be able to even produce the Rn to below 1.
I see a lot of long term benefits of the UK approach, will be very hard to explain mid panic tough.
The government may have good medical and scientific planning but the data analytics is notoriously poor. I think this is an area where crowd sourcing could be of real use because there are better data analysts and data scientists in the country than those who work for the government and were involved in this decision making process.
The experts might think a cull is price of herd immunity. Those in the herd will disagree.
People will do their own lockdowns and the economy will hit hard because govt policy is to kill people. People will do their best to avoid catching it.
Nice to see the corbynista WW2 line gaining traction here.
The internationally recognized expert in infectious disease epidemiology?
That Michael Osterholm?
Give me a motivational speaker with funky graphs any day of the week....
Of all the armchair epidemiologists hire the stupidest I've come across. You clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about and are stuck on this "everything the UK does is terrible" idea, even though this is the same path taken by Japan who now have a low transmission rate and the virus looks to be under control there.
Additionally, it makes sense that national or herd immunity be achieved through very low risk groups building it up. It's not such a big deal for kids, young people and middle aged people to get it. With good healthcare the death rate will be extremely low and health provisioning will not be anywhere near what would be required with a mass out break post lockdown.
It's amazing that you're exactly the type of person who decried the anti expert attitude of leavers, but this is now policy led by experts and you're still being a whiny bitch about it. Honestly, if Boris announced that the government had found a cure for this you'd still find fault somewhere. It's do transparent what your agenda is.
Goodnight
I'm struggling with the government policy, because it seems to be to let it rip and have a whole lot of people catch it within a few days. How the h*ll are the hospitals going to cope? We don't really know how infectious it is, but I fear that it's being underestimated and the health system is going to be overwhelmed in short order.
Simple numbers....
Night night!
Care to speculate on the death toll for the other courses of action?
https://www.carnivalcorp.com/news-releases/news-release-details/four-additional-carnival-corporation-north-american-brands
https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1238562537991548928?s=20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C98FmoZVbjs
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1238589554342461440?s=20
Singapore hasn't closed schools, for example.
And you're on it.
According to the China data the mortality rate of confirmed cases in U50s was about 0.2%, or sub 0.1% once you add the fact that young people seem to be big on the whole asymptomatic spreading thing.
So that's 60000000, half get infected, mortality rate of 0.1% = 30,000 deaths while herd immunity is acquired.
If you make the assumption that this is in the wild, and that whenever lockdowns stop the virus will just come roaring back then the UK approach makes a lot of sense, and will save a lot of lives compared to the lockdown-growth cycle.
https://www.wired.com/story/coronavirus-donald-trump-google-website/
Singapore stopped public events like a month ago, sent masks to every household, did a monster data-based contact tracing effort that is probably hard to do in a free society, banned travel from Italy 3 weeks ago and made returning citizens self-quarantine, have been doing temperature screening for months... I mean, the whole thing is totally different to what the British have done. A lot of it's probably not really practical for the UK, which is why I think SK and Japan are better models for what the British *could* be doing - and they are generally shambling along in that direction, but way too late.
*From 11.59pm on Sunday (March 15), all new visitors who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will not be allowed entry or transit
*Also from 11.59pm on Sunday, Singaporeans and permanent residents who had been to Italy, France, Spain and Germany within the last 14 days will be issued a stay-home notice (SHN). This means they must stay home at all times for 14 days after returning to Singapore..
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/health/covid-19-singapore-rolls-out-more-measures-including-limiting-where-possible-the
https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Is more current
Tomas Pueyo 0/10
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/covid-19-new-travel-bans-visitors-spore-recent-history-travel-iran-northern-italy-south
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51795642
Meanwhile some days later the UK are advising people not to go *to* the specific areas that are under active lockdown unless they really need to, and if you come back from them you breeze back through the airport and there's unenforced advice to self-isolate.
I'm not saying that what Singapore did would necessarily have been practical for the UK but the idea that these two things are the same is not sensible.
Saudi Arabia has suspended all international flights for two weeks, starting on Sunday, to prevent the spread of coronavirus, state news agency SPA said on Saturday, citing an official source at interior ministry.
Reuters reports the period will be considered as an exceptional official holiday for citizens and residents who are unable to return due to the suspension of flights or if they face quarantine after their return to the Kingdom, SPA cited the official as saying.
Saudi Arabia has reported 86 coronavirus cases.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-live-updates-uk-us-australia-italy-europe-school-shutdown-sport-events-cancelled-latest-update-news
Cases up 769 to 2,466
Deaths up 9 to 50
Number of new US cases:
9 Mar -106
10 Mar - 163
11 Mar - 290
12 Mar - 307
13 Mar - 396
14 Mar - 769 (number may not be final)
(All per worldometer)