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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The GE2019 polling race: The pollsters ranked by the CON lead

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    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    If only there was a spreadsheet that showed that...
    Can you kindly link me?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16BjKMutz0rNyU7jqyH-S0VTcYPwhp-fGD5z73s-5YoA
    Thank you.
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    BONG minus 2hrs
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,487
    That would be as improbable as you eating a pineapple pizza.
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Darlington and Wrecsam are early key CON targets.

    Also watch the swing in Swindon N
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Vanilla has been throwing a bit of a tantrum for the last twenty minutes or so, but it finally appears to have calmed down so here I am... voted a bit earlier this evening, no queues out the door but woman collecting ballot paper immediately in front of me enquired as to whether or not business had been brisk and received an answer in the affirmative. This was in a Tory safe seat so, allied to the other anecdata that seem to have been coming through during the day, it doesn't look like this is going to be a low turnout election - despite the utterly appalling weather.

    The Rook household now awaits the exit poll with a sense of slightly nervous anticipation.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,400
    That can't possibly happen. I saw the picture of the cute but badly behaved dog at the polling station, ahhh! Dilyn was with him.

    Boom boom- good night!
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    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Sunderland South will declare v quick. Lab will win it easily, but it's very very leavy so the Tory uptick will be important.
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    SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106
    kyf_100 said:


    If the Tories scrape home narrowly tonight the spectre of Corbynism will remain. I just don't think they've done enough to discredit it. And Labour may well get lucky next time round.

    I think they will be in a 1997 type position next time which is why it's so important the Labour centrists get back behind the wheel.

    That said, if Boris can get a majority it gives me a few years to QROPS my pension and Golden Visa in to Portugal should the country decide it wants to drive itself over the cliff with Corbyn 2.0.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,487
    Brom said:

    Andrew said:

    More rumours about Pidcock, hrrrm. Still dubious here.

    Her constant tweeting suggests it’s probably tight. I doubt her personal vote is high so that might mean Con outperform the MRP a bit
    I would have thought if anything she’s a drag on the ticket. She’s not local, the CLP all hate her and she’s not been notably assiduous as a constituency MP.

    Still be a major, major shock if she loses. But we’re going to get lots of those I think.
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    I'd estimate turnout will be around 75%.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,389

    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,092
    PB was down for several minutes. Did anybody notice?
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    DanSmith said:

    Gabs3 said:

    https://www.twitter.com/lucianaberger/status/1205097181486747648

    Of course they want to go out their way to ensure the Jew doesn't get elected...

    They were 4 points behind in 2017, reasonable for Labour to campaign there. You could write a very long book about antisemetism in the Labour, don't need to get the tinfoil hats out as well.
    Except Labour have not campaigned at all in F&GG. Why start now?
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    He would stay as PM I guess and someone would step down in a safe seat
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    speedy2 said:

    We will find out soon.
    If the Conservatives win Sunderland Central they have won the election.
    If not, then look at the swing in Swindon.
    Swindon? More like Swingdon.
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    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
    It's only ramping when it's pro Labour, anything pro Tory is seen as impartial. Never change PB
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    speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    Just for posterity this was what I got during the past 5 weeks of regional subsamples:

    CON 359, 345, 347, 346, 352
    LAB 208, 223, 226, 229, 225
    LD 19, 19, 15, 13, 12
    SNP 42, 41, 40, 40, 40

    My swingometer showed a majority of:
    24, 24, 24, 24, 24

    If there is a polling error then it will not be due to late swings.
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    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    Boris.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,893

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Surely Sunderland?
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    DeClareDeClare Posts: 483

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Stoke Newington.
    You probably mean Stoke-on-Trent.

    Stoke Newington is part of the Hackney North constituency in London, Dianne Abbot is the MP.
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    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    DeClare said:

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Stoke Newington.
    You probably mean Stoke-on-Trent.

    Stoke Newington is part of the Hackney North constituency in London, Dianne Abbot is the MP.
    I know. It was a wind-up. And CHB didn’t notice.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Other Vanilla powered sites are still offline
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    speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    It would be Boris from the Lords.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,389

    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
    It's only ramping when it's pro Labour, anything pro Tory is seen as impartial. Never change PB
    Dont see pbTories ramping.. just you and acfew other new contributors to the site
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2019
    They've had it in much of London outside Westminster and Chelsea, including Putney, I think. The question, further out of London and in order of likelihood, is whether Raab can hang on, Grieve can pull off a stunner, and Uxbridge can deliver the mother of all clownshocks.

    I'm not sure any of those last ones are really that likely except Raab, though.
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    DeClare said:

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Stoke Newington.
    You probably mean Stoke-on-Trent.

    Stoke Newington is part of the Hackney North constituency in London, Dianne Abbot is the MP.
    I know. It was a wind-up. And CHB didn’t notice.
    As the old saying goes “so goes Bootle, so goes the nation”.
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    DeClare said:

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Stoke Newington.
    You probably mean Stoke-on-Trent.

    Stoke Newington is part of the Hackney North constituency in London, Dianne Abbot is the MP.
    I know. It was a wind-up. And CHB didn’t notice.
    I missed it, I'm all embarrassed now
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688

    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
    It's only ramping when it's pro Labour, anything pro Tory is seen as impartial. Never change PB
    :smiley:

    +!
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,487

    DeClare said:

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Stoke Newington.
    You probably mean Stoke-on-Trent.

    Stoke Newington is part of the Hackney North constituency in London, Dianne Abbot is the MP.
    I know. It was a wind-up. And CHB didn’t notice.
    Diane Abbott losing her seat would be very funny though and probably would indicate that the result is sub-optimal for the Labour Party.
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    I predicted those five seats in London swapping earlier, I am feeling more confident now.
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    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Looking like 1987 to me!! 🥳
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    speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    2 seats that yougov's MRP has predicted that will go Labour.
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    Just looked the clock and it’s only 8.15. Feels much later. Roll on May elections. Going to be a long night.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,057

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    The Sunderland seats are Leave seats.
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    Looking like 1987 to me!! 🥳

    Ooo can I have a Commodore 64 for Christmas?
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Brom said:

    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    He would stay as PM I guess and someone would step down in a safe seat
    I don't think you can have an unelected PM? Don't they have to be a Member of Parliament? Of Commons or Lords? Maybe they would elevate him quickly to the House of Lords.

    However, I suspect the tory party would ditch him very fast.

    All fun but fanciful at this stage.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,400
    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    Raab? Oh wait... IDS? Oh wait...

    I am joking don't panic PBTories.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,057

    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
    It's only ramping when it's pro Labour, anything pro Tory is seen as impartial. Never change PB
    Is anyone ramping the Tories by saying they're going to win a landslide?
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,183

    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
    It's only ramping when it's pro Labour, anything pro Tory is seen as impartial. Never change PB
    lol! Quite so :)
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    I'm never entirely sure whether to believe the Daily Mail on Labour information, I'm sure it's the same for Tories when the Guardian reports things too.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,057

    I'd estimate turnout will be around 75%.

    I've gone for 72%, up from 68.8% last time.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,487
    speedy2 said:
    Presumably if London is resisting the Tory tide Jon Cruddas is safe in Dagenham?
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    Fortunately this didn't happen in a couple of marginals.

    Forty-eight people were given the wrong ballot papers and will have to re-cast their votes in the general election, a council has admitted.

    The mix-up happened at a polling station in Mossley Hill, Liverpool, which serves two constituencies.

    Ballot papers for Wavertree constituency were mistakenly issued to Riverside residents.

    The incorrect votes will be discounted and a review has been ordered, Liverpool City Council said.

    The authority said it was making efforts to contact those involved to give them the opportunity to vote for a second time before polls close at 22:00 GMT.

    The council's returning officer Tony Reeves said the errors developed after a "medical issue" meant a "key member of staff" was unable to attend the polling station at Booker Avenue Junior School.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50761707
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    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
    It's only ramping when it's pro Labour, anything pro Tory is seen as impartial. Never change PB
    Dont see pbTories ramping.. just you and acfew other new contributors to the site

    Oh you're on a wind up
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    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    Looking like 1987 to me!! 🥳

    Ooo can I have a Commodore 64 for Christmas?
    Not a ZX Spectrum +2? Got a datacorder!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,450
    Why the fuck does anyone in this benighted country ever travel by train? The useless bastards have delayed my train so that I won’t be at home by the exit poll. I hate them. Yes I may have had a drink. But it does not excuse their incompetence.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,400
    ydoethur said:

    DeClare said:

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Stoke Newington.
    You probably mean Stoke-on-Trent.

    Stoke Newington is part of the Hackney North constituency in London, Dianne Abbot is the MP.
    I know. It was a wind-up. And CHB didn’t notice.
    Diane Abbott losing her seat would be very funny though and probably would indicate that the result is sub-optimal for the Labour Party.
    Sub- optimal? Does that mean when they have no seats left, for example when losing Stoke Newington?
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    Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited December 2019

    Brom said:

    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    He would stay as PM I guess and someone would step down in a safe seat
    I don't think you can have an unelected PM? Don't they have to be a Member of Parliament? Of Commons or Lords? Maybe they would elevate him quickly to the House of Lords.

    However, I suspect the tory party would ditch him very fast.

    All fun but fanciful at this stage.
    Nope. You don’t have to be anything in stature. It becomes rather hard to front up in Parliament but no change there.....

    In practice, as many have said, you’d think a midlands Tory on a 30k majority would make way.

    Edit - I meant statute. But you can also be any stature.
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    speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
    I noticed that hours ago with the turnout reports.

    I suspected at the time that Labour and the Conservatives could exceed expectations in their target regions.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,819
    edited December 2019
    This was my prediction to a colleague on the phone last night.

    Tory: 330-350 ie Up
    Lab: 170-210 ie Down
    SNP: 45-50 ie Noisy
    LD: 10-20 ie Irrelevant if the rest are correct
    Others: The rest, including Zadrozny

    ie Majority of 30-70.

    No hedging or ambiguity at all there :-) .

    My estimate in 2017 was unnecessarily expensive.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Brom said:

    Not sure what Lib Dem vote there was to collapse, they lost their deposit in 2017!
    Fact based analysis will take you nowhere when random bloke off Twitter says....
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    Brom said:

    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    He would stay as PM I guess and someone would step down in a safe seat
    I don't think you can have an unelected PM? Don't they have to be a Member of Parliament? Of Commons or Lords? Maybe they would elevate him quickly to the House of Lords.

    However, I suspect the tory party would ditch him very fast.

    All fun but fanciful at this stage.
    You don't have to be a member of Parliament to be PM. In fact he isn't at the moment. Anyone could be appointed.
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    DeClareDeClare Posts: 483

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Look for a swing to Con in one of the first seats to declare, Sunderland South and Houghton.

    It'll probably be won by Labour but if there is say a 4% swing then Boris can almost certainly count on a majority but wait for results from a couple of other regions to make sure. Swindon will be an early one.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,487

    Brom said:

    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    He would stay as PM I guess and someone would step down in a safe seat
    I don't think you can have an unelected PM? Don't they have to be a Member of Parliament? Of Commons or Lords? Maybe they would elevate him quickly to the House of Lords.

    However, I suspect the tory party would ditch him very fast.

    All fun but fanciful at this stage.
    Alec Douglas Home was not a member of either house for a few weeks in 1963.

    Patrick Gordon Walker was Foreign Secretary for four months in 1964-65 but not a member of either house.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,086
    Were we not expecting Tory difficulties in the capital?
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    ***ANECDOTE KLAXON***

    Interestingly, my ballot paper was folded by the clerk, but not in half. It was folded to expose just the boxes for the X. I had to fold it again once I’d voted so no one could see my vote as I popped it in the box.

    Make of that what you will.

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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Andrew said:
    Targets 59,69 and 74. If they’re not even close here than that is making me confident of a majority. But will take with a pinch of salt
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    twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1205220464274092042

    Kind of chimes in

    If it is close in Crewe, Tories aren't getting a majority.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,183

    Just looked the clock and it’s only 8.15. Feels much later. Roll on May elections. Going to be a long night.

    Hearin’. It’s that fourth glass of cab that causes that phenomenon old friend.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012
    ydoethur said:

    speedy2 said:
    Presumably if London is resisting the Tory tide Jon Cruddas is safe in Dagenham?
    Rainham will vote Conservative by a stonking margin. But, Dagenham will probably vote sufficiently Labour for him to cling on.
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    See this is a betting site so does anyone have any on the ground information?

    I have been told by two counters that Falmouth/Truro race has record turnout and the queues were out the door for around an hour. The university count has surged but just based on demographics vast majority under 40.

    It was 7/1 this morning but is now 9/2.

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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,057
    I voted in a village hall at about 4pm, and for the first time didn't even take my polling card with me. Amazing how lax we are about ID in this country. In the United States you can't even buy a local train ticket without showing ID.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Skwawkbox, seriously?
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    Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    kle4 said:

    Were we not expecting Tory difficulties in the capital?
    Could be CON gain a few Dagenham, Eltham, Kensington lose a few Richmond P, Chipping Barnet

    CON will take net nil change in London
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    Skwawkbox, seriously?

    They're pro Labour, so it backs up the Daily Mail Tweet
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,763
    OK, time for my polling station story. Arrived 6.15ish with the rest of the after work commuter crowd. And crowd is the right word for it. There were at least 15 queueing when I arrived and 20 by the time I left. That must count as "brisk" in anyone's book.

    The most exciting part was that the desks and booths were in reverse formation from last time.

    Oh, and Wor Lass told me to stop slagging off Philip Davies within earshot of the other voters as we were stood in the queue.
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    General Waste?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,893
    Andy_JS said:

    There's something of a shift I am observing in these hours, which is a bit like 2017.

    Ramp alert
    It's only ramping when it's pro Labour, anything pro Tory is seen as impartial. Never change PB
    Is anyone ramping the Tories by saying they're going to win a landslide?
    I forecast Con 360+ and go green at that point. Below that line I am in the red, some bits more than others. I backed the extremes on either side of 340.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Brom said:


    Targets 59,69 and 74. If they’re not even close here than that is making me confident of a majority. But will take with a pinch of salt

    All super, super leavy though, so realistically higher targets than the majorities would suggest.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,487

    twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1205220464274092042

    Kind of chimes in

    If it is close in Crewe, Tories aren't getting a majority.
    It is however Skwawkbox, who is infamous for his dishonesty and total fabrications.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1205220464274092042

    Kind of chimes in

    If it is close in Crewe, Tories aren't getting a majority.
    Had a chat with a Corbyn supporter from Crewe last week, Laura Smith seems quite popular so it could buck the trend
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    Not ramping when you say the Tories are going to win a majority, stealing those Northern seats, Johnson is the best, blah, blah. Oh no.

    It's hilarious, honestly PB never change
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    Good evening, PBers.

    Thought I'd add my voting experience to the mix.

    Voted at around noon in Sevenoaks. The only person in the polling station, and squinting at the list of electors, looked like very few names crossed off by that point - perhaps 10% at a guess. Still, it's a Tory safe seat, so not of any significance.

    Daughter voted in Canterbury today - she's at Kent University. It was quiet-ish in her polling station with a single Labour teller. On the campus, however, students were queueing up to vote and mostly going on about voting Labour, as you'd expect. So probably little chance of Anna Firth taking the seat, in line with the YouGov MRP.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,400
    ydoethur said:

    Brom said:

    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    He would stay as PM I guess and someone would step down in a safe seat
    I don't think you can have an unelected PM? Don't they have to be a Member of Parliament? Of Commons or Lords? Maybe they would elevate him quickly to the House of Lords.

    However, I suspect the tory party would ditch him very fast.

    All fun but fanciful at this stage.
    Alec Douglas Home was not a member of either house for a few weeks in 1963.

    Patrick Gordon Walker was Foreign Secretary for four months in 1964-65 but not a member of either house.
    Oh my goodness don't mention Patrick Gordon Walker! Parachuting Boris into a safe seat might not work too well.
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    phiwphiw Posts: 32
    Very exciting and distracting countdown from work. Have taken tomorrow off here in the US, always fun to survive a little longer into the wee small hours on election night #iwasupforballs
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    Skwawkbox, seriously?

    They're pro Labour, so it backs up the Daily Mail Tweet
    It's like quoting infowars.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,893
    We saw that sort of tweet in 2017.

    I am not sure whether either party really know where their voters are.
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    That vanilla outage was more stressful than the election.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,487
    By the way, thinking of Skwawkbox, do we know when the verdict in the Turley libel trial is likely to be?
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    ydoethur said:

    twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1205220464274092042

    Kind of chimes in

    If it is close in Crewe, Tories aren't getting a majority.
    It is however Skwawkbox, who is infamous for his dishonesty and total fabrications.
    Just like the Daily Mail that has been posted here then?
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,245
    Any of you players changed your betting views yet? Robert still going for Boris to win bigly?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,012

    God spare us from Conservatives who, fresh from a referendum campaign on Brexit won by scaring people with untrue stories that millions of Muslims were poised to descend on Britain and are backing for Prime Minister a man who sought to suspend democracy to impose a mandateless policy with enduring consequences on the country and who concluded his election campaign with a posh man’s version of “send the immigrants home”, worry about the ethical credentials of their opponents.

    Everyone worries about their opponents' ethical credentials.
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    Foxy said:

    We saw that sort of tweet in 2017.

    I am not sure whether either party really know where their voters are.
    Agreed.
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    That vanilla outage was more stressful than the election.

    I read that as outrage.
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    ydoethur said:

    DeClare said:

    Can somebody remind me of a typical Leave seat to look out for early on, which will give an indication of how the Tories are doing?

    Stoke Newington.
    You probably mean Stoke-on-Trent.

    Stoke Newington is part of the Hackney North constituency in London, Dianne Abbot is the MP.
    I know. It was a wind-up. And CHB didn’t notice.
    Diane Abbott losing her seat would be very funny though and probably would indicate that the result is sub-optimal for the Labour Party.
    Speaking of the fragrant Dianne, this is the first mention of her during this campaign that I've seen. Seriously WTF

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7784881/Starting-wrong-foot-Labours-Diane-Abbott-appears-rushed-ODD-shoes.html
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Nobody really knows anything, this moving of plastic armies around is silly unless in adjacent constituencies. Polling clerks always say polling is brisk, the only time things are different is when they run out of ballot papers which happens rarely. Calm down relax take a tranquilizer or a large brandy. Ramping is a waste of time now, if it ever was otherwise. Come terms with your fate and chill
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    speedy2speedy2 Posts: 981
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    ydoethur said:

    speedy2 said:
    Presumably if London is resisting the Tory tide Jon Cruddas is safe in Dagenham?
    At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious, London's a big old place. Saying that Dagenham must be safe just because Putney is a close call is rather like saying that Old Bexley & Sidcup must be about to go Labour for the same reason. I mean, Cruddas might be just fine, but if you care to remember that this is a heavily leave voting constituency sat immediately next to Thurrock then it doesn't make it sound all that easy for him. Because it probably won't be.
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    speedy2 said:

    Andrew said:

    I could really be on board with Boris losing his seat but Tory overall majority.

    Hell yeah. Would be fun to see who they then picked as PM.
    It would be Boris from the Lords.
    He'd have to recommend himself for ennoblement. And why stop with a mere barony?
This discussion has been closed.