It is unlikely that there is a brexit deal that can command Government support and gain enough opposition support in a hung parliament. Therefore the only way a deal does get through is through an election.
Unless you want all this to come back at an EU summit every 3 months and prevent the EU from functioning properly
No just give us an extension to 2200 that will resolve everything, we can then go back to worry about important things rather than pathetic sovereignty arguments
As I understand it you don't even live in the UK so no surprise you don't care anout the place as long as it keeps sending you money.
I have every right to care about what happens in the UK because it will affect my and my children’s rights, the UK do not send me a penny that I haven’t earned or contributed to over the years. I think having paid x,xxx,xxx in tax in my working life I have a right to my £140/week pension as much as anyone. If We all had to come back to the UK I think we might bugger a few things up.
So I was right. You don't care so long as they keep sending you your money. No wonder you don't understand Leave voters with an attitude like that.
I don’t give a shit about my £140/week it really is irrelevant I don’t get anything I haven’t earned, possibly in more ways than you have ever done.
I doubt that very much.
Moreover you didn't earn any of it. You paid into a system to support the pensioners at he time you were working. Just like the rest of us you were paying it forward in the hope you might get something back when your time came around. But that was it. No guarantees and no promises.
On top of that you then decided to bugger off to another country. Entirely your choice but you can't then moan if things don't turn out the way you hoped.
Point of order: he is moaning, so he clearly can moan.
I won't be happy until I can cast my ballot through the only method of truly being able to get across complex emotions sufficiently - interpretative dance.
How does one say 'I agree with many of your policies but have misgivings about certain of them, and on balance will support you for now' through strategic use of arm flairs and hip thrusts?
Could I suggest a jump to the left, a step to the right. Put your hands on your hips and bend your knees in time?
Leaving today’s debate with one thought. It’s amazing how remain voting entitled voters who are now living abroad are vilified by leave voting Torys where as leave voting Torys living abroad aren’t criticized.
Er, many of them have been on many occasions, the old 'no wonder they support leaving when they don't have to suffer the consequences' jibe.
Are there any hard studies on gullibility / credulity by age groups? It often gets brought up as an unexamined assumption that 16-17 year olds are more gullible than adults, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that there are elements of experience that come with age, but then again younger people can be quite savvy to new developments and older people take time to cotton on. You hear a lot about older people getting scammed.
Unless they opt for the stupid 'have a short extension, and if not agreed by then a longer extension will come into play' plan from earlier this year, they can be as open to it as they like whilst being willing to accept any old cobbler. As we've seen very few people are willing to die in a ditch over a political point, and they'd do it for that?
Macron might reasonably assume that a 3 month extension will accomplish precisely nothing, except continue to distract the EU from its many pressing issues. I think Tusk is trying to bounce everyone into agreeing to 3 months, but I wonder if Macron, Orban and a few others might hold out for something shorter.
Probably not, given everyone’s addiction to can kicking!
It just opens up a can of worms for them to be seen to aid one side or another in our debate. While a longer one does help one side more, it is a date parliament chose, not them, and they can rightly point out if there are votes to leave sooner we still can.
Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .
It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !
Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election? I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic. My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.
As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
Scottish imo, not very broad though.
Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
Call me a little Englander, but I'd now never vote for a party that had a Scots/Welsh /Irish leader. The union is done and dusted.
That would have ruled out Michael Howard, John Smith, Neil Kinnock, Tony Blair, IDS, Gordon Brown, Charles Kennedy etc all of whom were born in Wales or Scotland
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens.
It would be an almost unbelievable piece of vote-rigging. The Tories could run most of their campaign on telling the existing electorate that the opposition wants to dilute their votes because they know they can't win any other way.
That would have ruled out Michael Howard, John Smith, Neil Kinnock, Tony Blair, IDS, Gordon Brown, Charles Kennedy etc all of whom were born in Wales or Scotland
Lloyd George was not born in Wales or Scotland.
I believe there has NEVER been a British Prime Minister who was born in Wales.
Honest question - why? I don't doubt the popularity of Labour and Jezza with young people, but what is it about him that she finds so appealing? He's got an amount of gravitas, at times, but he's not a superb speaker, plenty of others say similar things, what quality does he have that she adores so much?
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens.
It would be an almost unbelievable piece of vote-rigging. The Tories could run most of their campaign on telling the existing electorate that the opposition wants to dilute their votes because they know they can't win any other way.
Of course the Torties were happy to have EU cisitzens voting in the 2012 Scottish Refersendum - they were telling them they'd be deported in the eventd of indyref as Scotland would be kicked out of the EU.
Unless they opt for the stupid 'have a short extension, and if not agreed by then a longer extension will come into play' plan from earlier this year, they can be as open to it as they like whilst being willing to accept any old cobbler. As we've seen very few people are willing to die in a ditch over a political point, and they'd do it for that?
Macron might reasonably assume that a 3 month extension will accomplish precisely nothing, except continue to distract the EU from its many pressing issues. I think Tusk is trying to bounce everyone into agreeing to 3 months, but I wonder if Macron, Orban and a few others might hold out for something shorter.
Probably not, given everyone’s addiction to can kicking!
If true, you have to hand it to Boris that he's persuaded Macron that the UK staying in the EU isnt worth the trouble the UK will cause.
Grieve and co need to prepare for their hearts to be broken
That would have ruled out Michael Howard, John Smith, Neil Kinnock, Tony Blair, IDS, Gordon Brown, Charles Kennedy etc all of whom were born in Wales or Scotland
Lloyd George was not born in Wales or Scotland.
I believe there has NEVER been a British Prime Minister who was born in Wales.
Unless they opt for the stupid 'have a short extension, and if not agreed by then a longer extension will come into play' plan from earlier this year, they can be as open to it as they like whilst being willing to accept any old cobbler. As we've seen very few people are willing to die in a ditch over a political point, and they'd do it for that?
Macron might reasonably assume that a 3 month extension will accomplish precisely nothing, except continue to distract the EU from its many pressing issues. I think Tusk is trying to bounce everyone into agreeing to 3 months, but I wonder if Macron, Orban and a few others might hold out for something shorter.
Probably not, given everyone’s addiction to can kicking!
It just opens up a can of worms for them to be seen to aid one side or another in our debate. While a longer one does help one side more, it is a date parliament chose, not them, and they can rightly point out if there are votes to leave sooner we still can.
I’m not sure at this point that the can has more worms...
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens.
It would be an almost unbelievable piece of vote-rigging. The Tories could run most of their campaign on telling the existing electorate that the opposition wants to dilute their votes because they know they can't win any other way.
Why don't you think EU citizens would vote Conservative? Quite a few of the people I work with from EU countries have voted Conservative in local and Holyrood elections.
Macron will grumble for his home crowd and then evaporate. The extension will be a flextension until 31st Jan. Brace yourself to be having the same conversations as now in three months, 10 months after we were originally meant to leave.
Are there any hard studies on gullibility / credulity by age groups? It often gets brought up as an unexamined assumption that 16-17 year olds are more gullible than adults, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that there are elements of experience that come with age, but then again younger people can be quite savvy to new developments and older people take time to cotton on. You hear a lot about older people getting scammed.
It would be ironic if all the people saying younger folk are too gullible to vote were just repeating something which turned out to be false
Wouldn’t say gullible. Impulsive is probably a better description.
One, that presumably you're about to supply evidence for? I mean, that was the thrust of my question.
I’m agreeing with you! Young people aren’t gullible, anymore than anyone else. But I would contend they are certainly more impulsive and willing to take risks older people would think twice about.
Isn’t there the saying “impulsiveness of youth”? I’m sure all of us took many more risks when we were younger without worrying too much about consequences.
I’m not saying that’s wrong or worse than those older but that’s one of the things that being young is about?
Sorry I don’t understand why you’re quite so confrontational - I’m not having a go at you!
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
Honest question - why? I don't doubt the popularity of Labour and Jezza with young people, but what is it about him that she finds so appealing? He's got an amount of gravitas, at times, but he's not a superb speaker, plenty of others say similar things, what quality does he have that she adores so much?
Think she wants an end to people using food banks and sleeping in shop doorways and likes the sound of council houses and not wasting money on wars and Labours Green Deal and the fact that he would ban fracking.
Are there any hard studies on gullibility / credulity by age groups? It often gets brought up as an unexamined assumption that 16-17 year olds are more gullible than adults, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that there are elements of experience that come with age, but then again younger people can be quite savvy to new developments and older people take time to cotton on. You hear a lot about older people getting scammed.
It would be ironic if all the people saying younger folk are too gullible to vote were just repeating something which turned out to be false
Wouldn’t say gullible. Impulsive is probably a better description.
One, that presumably you're about to supply evidence for? I mean, that was the thrust of my question.
I’m agreeing with you! Young people aren’t gullible, anymore than anyone else. But I would contend they are certainly more impulsive and willing to take risks older people would think twice about.
Isn’t there the saying “impulsiveness of youth”? I’m sure all of us took many more risks when we were younger without worrying too much about consequences.
I’m not saying that’s wrong or worse than those older but that’s one of the things that being young is about?
Sorry I don’t understand why you’re quite so confrontational - I’m not having a go at you!
Honest question - why? I don't doubt the popularity of Labour and Jezza with young people, but what is it about him that she finds so appealing? He's got an amount of gravitas, at times, but he's not a superb speaker, plenty of others say similar things, what quality does he have that she adores so much?
Think she wants an end to people using food banks and sleeping in shop doorways and likes the sound of council houses and not wasting money on wars and Labours Green Deal and the fact that he would ban fracking.
Apart from that not sure.
Yes, but that's a reason to support him and his policies. Why the love? I can understand why people would get fired up by a poltical leader and their policies, but its the adoration I do not understand, particularly when plenty of others within the same movement support the same things and may have other beneficial qualities. Yes he is the leader and that gives a boost, but he's not some unique christ like figure.
I'd ask, and have asked, the same question about people adorating leaders on the right as well.
I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.
Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue
Tory Swinson is still better than Jeremy Corbyn.
But a vote for Tory Swinson leads to PM Jestet and hard BREXIT.
It's either PM Jester or Jezza and a 2nd Referendum
I’m voting for Tory Swinson regardless.
You aren't that bothered about stopping BREXIT or a 2nd Referendum then.
What's Tory Swinsons other policies BTW?
Oh BJO, I remember when we used to post daily YouGov polls with Red Ed winning and the words "tick tock".
I thought you learned the perils of being hyper partisan from the 2015 experience
Never used tick tock in any post ever.
EICIPM was me.
You have (see above).
??
EICIPM was so 2015
Tory Swinson is the new EICIPM
What doies the acronym mean, please?
Ed (Milliband) Is Crap Is Prime Minister.
Prior to 2015 many of the polls were showing Labour leads (ask your mother), and criticism of Ed Miliband (the then-Labour leader at a time where Jews weren't hounded from the party) was inevitably met with a retort of "EICIPM"
Are there any hard studies on gullibility / credulity by age groups? It often gets brought up as an unexamined assumption that 16-17 year olds are more gullible than adults, but I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that there are elements of experience that come with age, but then again younger people can be quite savvy to new developments and older people take time to cotton on. You hear a lot about older people getting scammed.
It would be ironic if all the people saying younger folk are too gullible to vote were just repeating something which turned out to be false
Wouldn’t say gullible. Impulsive is probably a better description.
One, that presumably you're about to supply evidence for? I mean, that was the thrust of my question.
I’m agreeing with you! Young people aren’t gullible, anymore than anyone else. But I would contend they are certainly more impulsive and willing to take risks older people would think twice about.
Isn’t there the saying “impulsiveness of youth”? I’m sure all of us took many more risks when we were younger without worrying too much about consequences.
I’m not saying that’s wrong or worse than those older but that’s one of the things that being young is about?
Sorry I don’t understand why you’re quite so confrontational - I’m not having a go at you!
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
There seems to be some talk of 30 days, to correspond with the new EU Commission.
Gives us plenty of time for scrutiny, but not an election/referendum.
And why would they commit themselves to that, and facing another extension request if we don't meet that time, when Boris is pausing consideration fo the legislation?
I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.
Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue
Tory Swinson is still better than Jeremy Corbyn.
But a vote for Tory Swinson leads to PM Jestet and hard BREXIT.
It's either PM Jester or Jezza and a 2nd Referendum
I’m voting for Tory Swinson regardless.
You aren't that bothered about stopping BREXIT or a 2nd Referendum then.
What's Tory Swinsons other policies BTW?
Oh BJO, I remember when we used to post daily YouGov polls with Red Ed winning and the words "tick tock".
I thought you learned the perils of being hyper partisan from the 2015 experience
Never used tick tock in any post ever.
EICIPM was me.
You have (see above).
??
EICIPM was so 2015
Tory Swinson is the new EICIPM
What doies the acronym mean, please?
Ed (Milliband) Is Crap Is Prime Minister.
Prior to 2015 many of the polls were showing Labour leads (ask your mother), and criticism of Ed Miliband (the then-Labour leader at a time where Jews weren't hounded from the party) was inevitably met with a retort of "EICIPM"
Thank you - I had retreated from PB at that time. You may be thinking of someone else, not that it matters at all - my late mother's ideas of Labour were founded on the likes of Harold Wilson and Wedgie Benn (with utter horror).
If France offer a technical.extension which is their preferred option then it traps Boris..he could get to end of 3 weeks and still not get it through yet he will have missed the GE opportunity this year.
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
I'm not really supportive of votes at 16 but I think that fight will be lost given they were given the vote in the Sindyref (IIRC) and if that is ok why not in others, but have we not just today had the pretty solid argument that you probably should not introduce massively substantive changes on the hoof, even if you have debated many of the key principles many times previously?
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
And probably immediately starts degenerating. Vote for all those 18-32, nobody else!
Conservatives here used to say "Ed is crap" (about Miliband), arguing that he would fail to introduce the strong and stable government that we have enjoyed under Mrs May and Mr Johnson. BigJ responded "Ed is crap is Prime Minister" when it appeared that he might win. Both phrases were used so often that they became abbreviated.
It wasn't the most nuanced discussion we've ever had here.
Conservatives here used to say "Ed is crap" (about Miliband), arguing that he would fail to introduce the strong and stable government that we have enjoyed under Mrs May and Mr Johnson. BigJ responded "Ed is crap is Prime Minister" when it appeared that he might win. Both phrases were used so often that they became abbreviated.
It wasn't the most nuanced discussion we've ever had here.
Cummings' strategy is working. The average Tory lead is now 11% in the opinion polls compared to about 5% a few weeks ago.
Any more Baldrick-ing by Remainers, and the Tory lead will just grow.
Remainers have to defeat Brexit in an election, not by cunning plans.
Having an election with BoZo having to defend his Deal, while Nigel and BXP campaign for No Deal thereby splitting the Leave vote is optimum Labour strategy.
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
Because he is under the legal voting age.
Listen, I've got a niece who's very bright, has strong views, wise before her years. She's 8 - should we give her the vote too? Tell you what, how about you can vote from any age, and go into the booth marking an X with your favourite colour crayon?
Your mate's lad is a year or less off being able to vote. He can wait that long.
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens.
It would be an almost unbelievable piece of vote-rigging. The Tories could run most of their campaign on telling the existing electorate that the opposition wants to dilute their votes because they know they can't win any other way.
Why don't you think EU citizens would vote Conservative? Quite a few of the people I work with from EU countries have voted Conservative in local and Holyrood elections.
Whatever their normal political leanings, the great majority of them are hardly likely to vote Conservative if that means the UK leaving the EU, are they?
LOL, PBTories don't actually believe that anyone who isn't a blind partisan would view extending the franchise as "vote-rigging", do they?
Would you be in favour if the change hurt Labour and helped the Tories? Don't make me laugh!
No, possibly I wouldn't be; but I wouldn't be deluded enough to think that the average person would give enough of a shit that it would affect how they vote (referring to the post that said "That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens").
Conservatives here used to say "Ed is crap" (about Miliband), arguing that he would fail to introduce the strong and stable government that we have enjoyed under Mrs May and Mr Johnson...
LOL, PBTories don't actually believe that anyone who isn't a blind partisan would view extending the franchise as "vote-rigging", do they?
Would you be in favour if the change hurt Labour and helped the Tories? Don't make me laugh!
No, possibly I wouldn't be; but I wouldn't be deluded enough to think that the average person would give enough of a shit that it would affect how they vote (referring to the post that said "That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens").
There are millions of EU citizens in the UK! The effect on the election would be gigantic, and it's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens.
It would be an almost unbelievable piece of vote-rigging. The Tories could run most of their campaign on telling the existing electorate that the opposition wants to dilute their votes because they know they can't win any other way.
Why don't you think EU citizens would vote Conservative? Quite a few of the people I work with from EU countries have voted Conservative in local and Holyrood elections.
Whatever their normal political leanings, the great majority of them are hardly likely to vote Conservative if that means the UK leaving the EU, are they?
Why wouldn't they be? Do you think EU citizens living here are going to suffer from the UK leaving the EU?
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens.
It would be an almost unbelievable piece of vote-rigging. The Tories could run most of their campaign on telling the existing electorate that the opposition wants to dilute their votes because they know they can't win any other way.
Why don't you think EU citizens would vote Conservative? Quite a few of the people I work with from EU countries have voted Conservative in local and Holyrood elections.
Whatever their normal political leanings, the great majority of them are hardly likely to vote Conservative if that means the UK leaving the EU, are they?
That was exactly the rationale of the targeting of fellow EU citisens in the Scottish referendum by Better Together - swapping Yes and Scotland for Tory and UK.
Honest question - why? I don't doubt the popularity of Labour and Jezza with young people, but what is it about him that she finds so appealing? He's got an amount of gravitas, at times, but he's not a superb speaker, plenty of others say similar things, what quality does he have that she adores so much?
Think she wants an end to people using food banks and sleeping in shop doorways and likes the sound of council houses and not wasting money on wars and Labours Green Deal and the fact that he would ban fracking.
Apart from that not sure.
Yes, but that's a reason to support him and his policies. Why the love? I can understand why people would get fired up by a poltical leader and their policies, but its the adoration I do not understand, particularly when plenty of others within the same movement support the same things and may have other beneficial qualities. Yes he is the leader and that gives a boost, but he's not some unique christ like figure.
I'd ask, and have asked, the same question about people adorating leaders on the right as well.
Think it's the fact he is so comfortable talking to ordinary people and never personal about opponents.
I think votes at 16 is sensible, but I'd rather see it introduced as a comprehensive set of reforms that mark transition to adulthood (rights & responsibilities, as well). It is important for intergenerational fairness.
I am however not at all attracted by Boles' poisonous suggestion that it suddenly be introduced at this juncture for purely partisan reasons.
Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
That would boost the Tories by another few percent when they promise to repeal votes at 16 and votes for EU citizens.
It would be an almost unbelievable piece of vote-rigging. The Tories could run most of their campaign on telling the existing electorate that the opposition wants to dilute their votes because they know they can't win any other way.
Why don't you think EU citizens would vote Conservative? Quite a few of the people I work with from EU countries have voted Conservative in local and Holyrood elections.
Whatever their normal political leanings, the great majority of them are hardly likely to vote Conservative if that means the UK leaving the EU, are they?
Why wouldn't they be? Do you think EU citizens living here are going to suffer from the UK leaving the EU?
You do like being utterly disingenuous, don't you?
LOL, PBTories don't actually believe that anyone who isn't a blind partisan would view extending the franchise as "vote-rigging", do they?
Would you be in favour if the change hurt Labour and helped the Tories? Don't make me laugh!
I would be in favour of votes for EVERY adult who lives here legally, even if it benefited the Tories.
Prisoners too?
Ah, important nuance. Anyone whose projected release date is within the next five years. Because they will be living free during the projected life of the next parliament. Obviously all remand prisoners: innocent til proven guilty and all that.
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
If we require people to be intellectually mature in order to vote, it would be a massive restriction on the electorate.
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
It starts to deteriorate at around 30. Shall we just leave it to 25-30 year olds then?
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
Because he is under the legal voting age.
Listen, I've got a niece who's very bright, has strong views, wise before her years. She's 8 - should we give her the vote too? Tell you what, how about you can vote from any age, and go into the booth marking an X with your favourite colour crayon?
Your mate's lad is a year or less off being able to vote. He can wait that long.
People bring up joining the army at this point, and various other things, but all it really says is we are inconsistent in our attitude to young people and what age we think they can and cannot do things, or should not be allowed to do things.
Definitely there should be more consistency in approach, and for me the question is whether on balance we treat people aged 16-17 as children and think that is the right approach, or whether on balance we think of them as adults and treat them as such. What we shouldn't do is treat them like children one day on one issue and then like adults the next day on another issue, so once we settle if we think they are children or adults, we can adjust the rules on various things up or down depending on that.
Cummings' strategy is working. The average Tory lead is now 11% in the opinion polls compared to about 5% a few weeks ago.
Any more Baldrick-ing by Remainers, and the Tory lead will just grow.
Remainers have to defeat Brexit in an election, not by cunning plans.
Having an election with BoZo having to defend his Deal, while Nigel and BXP campaign for No Deal thereby splitting the Leave vote is optimum Labour strategy.
No Deal's dead. Boris's Brexit is the only show in town. Not only does it appeal to Brexit party voters (and the party's candidates!) but it allows Boris to campaign on 'leaving in a smooth and amicable way' in Remain-y seats a fortnight ago it looked like he'd lose to the Lib Dems.
Honest question - why? I don't doubt the popularity of Labour and Jezza with young people, but what is it about him that she finds so appealing? He's got an amount of gravitas, at times, but he's not a superb speaker, plenty of others say similar things, what quality does he have that she adores so much?
Think she wants an end to people using food banks and sleeping in shop doorways and likes the sound of council houses and not wasting money on wars and Labours Green Deal and the fact that he would ban fracking.
Apart from that not sure.
Yes, but that's a reason to support him and his policies. Why the love? I can understand why people would get fired up by a poltical leader and their policies, but its the adoration I do not understand, particularly when plenty of others within the same movement support the same things and may have other beneficial qualities. Yes he is the leader and that gives a boost, but he's not some unique christ like figure.
I'd ask, and have asked, the same question about people adorating leaders on the right as well.
Think it's the fact he is so comfortable talking to ordinary people and never personal about opponents.
I will ask her tomorrow.
"Darling, a strange man on the internet wants me to ask you about Mr Corbyn..."
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
It starts to deteriorate at around 30. Shall we just leave it to 25-30 year olds then?
Yes. And only women, because you know what men are like. Actually, exclude the quarter of women who are on their period that week too. And obviously pregnancy makes you hormonal too, so mandatory scans before casting the ballot.
I think votes at 16 is sensible, but I'd rather see it introduced as a comprehensive set of reforms that mark transition to adulthood (rights & responsibilities, as well). It is important for intergenerational fairness.
I am however not at all attracted by Boles' poisonous suggestion that it suddenly be introduced at this juncture for purely partisan reasons.
That's my position.
I could see myself supporting votes for 16 year olds, electoral reform and HoL reform, but it obviously should be done as part of a package of carefully considered proposals and not tacked on to a one line election bill...
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
If we require people to be intellectually mature in order to vote, it would be a massive restriction on the electorate.
What makes me so uneasy is that the youngsters have to live with the consequences more than the rest of us - and yet geriatrics are allowed to leave money tax free to poliitcal parties, in a sense to continue influencing politics from beyond the grave.
Cummings' strategy is working. The average Tory lead is now 11% in the opinion polls compared to about 5% a few weeks ago.
Any more Baldrick-ing by Remainers, and the Tory lead will just grow.
Remainers have to defeat Brexit in an election, not by cunning plans.
Having an election with BoZo having to defend his Deal, while Nigel and BXP campaign for No Deal thereby splitting the Leave vote is optimum Labour strategy.
No Deal's dead. Boris's Brexit is the only show in town. Not only does it appeal to Brexit party voters (and the party's candidates!) but it allows Boris to campaign on 'leaving in a smooth and amicable way' in Remain-y seats a fortnight ago it looked like he'd lose to the Lib Dems.
I wonder if BXP will struggle with some of the people they had planned as candidates, or whether Farage can still force a full slate of candidates to maximise any damage to Boris.
Cummings' strategy is working. The average Tory lead is now 11% in the opinion polls compared to about 5% a few weeks ago.
Any more Baldrick-ing by Remainers, and the Tory lead will just grow.
Remainers have to defeat Brexit in an election, not by cunning plans.
Having an election with BoZo having to defend his Deal, while Nigel and BXP campaign for No Deal thereby splitting the Leave vote is optimum Labour strategy.
No Deal's dead. Boris's Brexit is the only show in town. Not only does it appeal to Brexit party voters (and the party's candidates!) but it allows Boris to campaign on 'leaving in a smooth and amicable way' in Remain-y seats a fortnight ago it looked like he'd lose to the Lib Dems.
Exactly - he's protected both his Leave and Remain flanks very well. Labour will get ground to a pulp defending their fence-sitting obstructionism in a GE.
Votes at sixteen isn't ambitious enough. I'd like to see votes from birth - but exercised by proxy by the mother until the child claims their vote by writing a letter to the returning officer to do so.
However, this discussion does suggest a novel franchise for any second referendum - have it only include those voters now over 18 who were too young in 2016 and add their votes to the existing totals.
Cummings' strategy is working. The average Tory lead is now 11% in the opinion polls compared to about 5% a few weeks ago.
Any more Baldrick-ing by Remainers, and the Tory lead will just grow.
Remainers have to defeat Brexit in an election, not by cunning plans.
Having an election with BoZo having to defend his Deal, while Nigel and BXP campaign for No Deal thereby splitting the Leave vote is optimum Labour strategy.
No Deal's dead. Boris's Brexit is the only show in town. Not only does it appeal to Brexit party voters (and the party's candidates!) but it allows Boris to campaign on 'leaving in a smooth and amicable way' in Remain-y seats a fortnight ago it looked like he'd lose to the Lib Dems.
There are a good number of Leavers unhappy with BoZos Deal.The Opposition need to exploit that, and peel off both Rabid No Dealers and former Labour Leavers.
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
The human brain doesn't stop developing until the age of 25 according to the latest research.
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
My mate's lad has just turned 17 and is an apprentice sparky, earning about 4 quid an hour. Why shouldn't he be allowed a say in how the country is run?
Because he is under the legal voting age.
Listen, I've got a niece who's very bright, has strong views, wise before her years. She's 8 - should we give her the vote too? Tell you what, how about you can vote from any age, and go into the booth marking an X with your favourite colour crayon?
Your mate's lad is a year or less off being able to vote. He can wait that long.
Yer niece is a kid. I've got a reasonably bright Spinone, how about we let him have a crack? The lad is in the adult world, earning, making a contribution. Let him have a say.
In the end it won't get to a one line bill with Con and SNP.
Jezza will agree the "traditional" route when Boris lays it before Parliament - perhaps tomorrow or Thursday IMO.
I am sure you are right Gin. Corbyn wants his election
And the irony of the 19 labour mps voting for the second reading then not the programme motion may well turn out that they have finished their political careers
I wouldn't mind compulsory voting as long as there's a "None Of The Above" option - which is why it'll never happen as "None Of The Above" would win a landslide every time.
Thanks for your support but I am not planning on standing.
Cummings' strategy is working. The average Tory lead is now 11% in the opinion polls compared to about 5% a few weeks ago.
Any more Baldrick-ing by Remainers, and the Tory lead will just grow.
Remainers have to defeat Brexit in an election, not by cunning plans.
Having an election with BoZo having to defend his Deal, while Nigel and BXP campaign for No Deal thereby splitting the Leave vote is optimum Labour strategy.
No Deal's dead. Boris's Brexit is the only show in town. Not only does it appeal to Brexit party voters (and the party's candidates!) but it allows Boris to campaign on 'leaving in a smooth and amicable way' in Remain-y seats a fortnight ago it looked like he'd lose to the Lib Dems.
I wonder if BXP will struggle with some of the people they had planned as candidates, or whether Farage can still force a full slate of candidates to maximise any damage to Boris.
Given even Banks supports the BorisDeal Farage is likely to have problems.
In the end it won't get to a one line bill with Con and SNP.
Jezza will agree the "traditional" route when Boris lays it before Parliament - perhaps tomorrow or Thursday IMO.
I am sure you are right Gin. Corbyn wants his election
And the irony of the 19 labour mps voting for the second reading then not the programme motion may well turn out that they have finished their political careers
The reason is simple - whether people will accept it is a different matter.
I wouldn't mind compulsory voting as long as there's a "None Of The Above" option - which is why it'll never happen as "None Of The Above" would win a landslide every time.
Thanks for your support but I am not planning on standing.
To be honest I think we should have NOTA on voting now. Make a world of difference I think and encourage better candidates.
Comments
https://youtu.be/-w0WPkB3XJ4
Green/Labour win every school election don't they.
Obviously SNP in Scotland.
Your mob do abysmally for certain
I believe there has NEVER been a British Prime Minister who was born in Wales.
EICIPM was so 2015
Tory Swinson is the new EICIPM
Grieve and co need to prepare for their hearts to be broken
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1186704849246867457?s=19
Isn’t there the saying “impulsiveness of youth”? I’m sure all of us took many more risks when we were younger without worrying too much about consequences.
I’m not saying that’s wrong or worse than those older but that’s one of the things that being young is about?
Sorry I don’t understand why you’re quite so confrontational - I’m not having a go at you!
Gives us plenty of time for scrutiny, but not an election/referendum.
Apart from that not sure.
Now apparently they seem to be okay for a longer delay as long as the WA isn’t renegotiated.
I'd ask, and have asked, the same question about people adorating leaders on the right as well.
Prior to 2015 many of the polls were showing Labour leads (ask your mother), and criticism of Ed Miliband (the then-Labour leader at a time where Jews weren't hounded from the party) was inevitably met with a retort of "EICIPM"
Remainers have to defeat Brexit in an election, not by cunning plans.
PB Tories were calling Ed Crap.
So every opinion poll that pointed to Lab being biggest party I used to post
Todays YG EICIPM
Ie Ed is Crap is PM
Bet u are glad u asked now.
It wasn't the most nuanced discussion we've ever had here.
Votes for 25 to 55 would do it.
Listen, I've got a niece who's very bright, has strong views, wise before her years. She's 8 - should we give her the vote too? Tell you what, how about you can vote from any age, and go into the booth marking an X with your favourite colour crayon?
Your mate's lad is a year or less off being able to vote. He can wait that long.
It has to be the 27 leaders who meet and agree. Tonight Tusk is phoning round to see if they can all agree a position without needing to meet
If they can Tusk will reply to Boris but if not a EU leaders meeting has to be convened
I will ask her tomorrow.
Jezza will agree the "traditional" route when Boris lays it before Parliament - perhaps tomorrow or Thursday IMO.
I am however not at all attracted by Boles' poisonous suggestion that it suddenly be introduced at this juncture for purely partisan reasons.
Obviously all remand prisoners: innocent til proven guilty and all that.
Definitely there should be more consistency in approach, and for me the question is whether on balance we treat people aged 16-17 as children and think that is the right approach, or whether on balance we think of them as adults and treat them as such. What we shouldn't do is treat them like children one day on one issue and then like adults the next day on another issue, so once we settle if we think they are children or adults, we can adjust the rules on various things up or down depending on that.
Actually, exclude the quarter of women who are on their period that week too. And obviously pregnancy makes you hormonal too, so mandatory scans before casting the ballot.
Or will it be replaced by flights which are in greater demand ?
I could see myself supporting votes for 16 year olds, electoral reform and HoL reform, but it obviously should be done as part of a package of carefully considered proposals and not tacked on to a one line election bill...
However, this discussion does suggest a novel franchise for any second referendum - have it only include those voters now over 18 who were too young in 2016 and add their votes to the existing totals.
And the irony of the 19 labour mps voting for the second reading then not the programme motion may well turn out that they have finished their political careers
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFWp2aZklHk