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  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    Bercow has helped to stop the UK crashing out with no deal . For that all those who don’t want no deal should be eternally grateful.

    God bless Bercow !
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    PaulM said:

    geoffw said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is insanity.
    I've no time for Murray at all, but he has a big personal vote in that seat, and would be the last man standing at a GE.

    Morningside matrons aren't about to vote for whichever scruffy Corbynite Unite are hoping to dredge up.
    About his personal vote: quite a few Cons and LDs voted for him to keep the ScotNat out.
    Yes, I live in Scotland, I am aware...

    It is a tricky constituency. The genteel ladies of affluent Edinburgh are no fans of Boris or Jeremy. The students are anti-Brexit, but largely wealthy and English.

    Putting up some Trot is a suicide mission, it could end up as a four way marginal.
    Didn't his work on keeping Hearts from going under help as well ?
    Yes, there is an element of the Maroon vote.

    You just know McCluskey has looked at the majority and thought 'safe seat for Karie'.

    Happy Falkirk memories. I will laugh forever if this is the game plan.
    Given what the Ineos affair nearly did for the Scots economy, I'm not entirely surprised.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Boris definitely will not be the shortest serving PM in history though, unless he quits, so all is well for him.
  • nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Dear EU diplomats

    It is unlikely that there is a brexit deal that can command Government support and gain enough opposition support in a hung parliament. Therefore the only way a deal does get through is through an election.

    Unless you want all this to come back at an EU summit every 3 months and prevent the EU from functioning properly
    No just give us an extension to 2200 that will resolve everything, we can then go back to worry about important things rather than pathetic sovereignty arguments
    As I understand it you don't even live in the UK so no surprise you don't care anout the place as long as it keeps sending you money.
    I have every right to care about what happens in the UK because it will affect my and my children’s rights, the UK do not send me a penny that I haven’t earned or contributed to over the years. I think having paid x,xxx,xxx in tax in my working life I have a right to my £140/week pension as much as anyone. If We all had to come back to the UK I think we might bugger a few things up.
    So I was right. You don't care so long as they keep sending you your money. No wonder you don't understand Leave voters with an attitude like that.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fnckin Rees Mogg ...

    I am not unsympathetic to the point about time, it is simply the deadline of 31 October which was set by the European Union and, therefore, we are compressed in the time available to get this bill delivered, which is why I was willing to support the programme motion and felt that it was reasonable under the circumstances...

    Jerk.

    I mean, it's just so disingenuous. It's very clear that however they arrived at this point, this government didn't have a deal ready in time for it to receive proper scrutiny in Parliament and meet this deadline. Given that circumstance, they opted to argue for not having proper scrutiny over asking to extend the deadline.
    And they did so for political reasons.

    Rushed legislation is bad legislation. Conservatives used to know this. How have they changed so drastically?
    And they don't even seem committed to the legislation as they'll pause rather than even try to go for an additional week of talking, unless they have a rabbit up their sleeve (cannot even put it in a hat properly).
    Note that Tusk didn't specify a date.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780

    No Deal is dead.

    It’s not coming back.

    Therefore we either Leave within a CU, or Boris wins an election in order to pass his piss-poor Deal.

    The last looks most likely but one assumes the Opposition haven’t stopped toying with him yet.

    Whilst no deal is an anti-European thing you're right.

    The no-deal of the ERG, the no-deal of the Xenophobes.

    However the no-deal of the pissed-off may well be a real thing.

    I'm a lifelong Europhile in almost all things, but I rather dislike the EU as an institution. We can build anew, and together. We can't though fix this EU.

    Currently I'm planning bombing raids with my Lancasters on important EU targets. (Obviously not the case - I'd not bomb a mouse, but you get the gist)

    The 'no deal' of failure will happen fast. It'll also stick, and stick for a long time.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Election is probably better for Boris than a delayed Brexit followed by election. He can play the 'blocking parliament' card and give me a majority and I give you a deal
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683

    Is Cummings still leaving Number 10 at the end of the month?

    Cumstain and Bercow both available for the panto season.
    And don't forget Widow Letwin and her faithful dog 'Grievesy'.
  • Scott_P said:
    This is where you don't want JRM, you want a proper smoozer in that position. I can imagine lots of SNP MPs have a reflex reaction to say no every time JRM says anything.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893
    edited October 2019
    Noo said:

    Is Cummings still leaving Number 10 at the end of the month?

    Yes. His species spend winters in the silt at the bottom of ponds.
    Come now, that's unfair to puddocks and other suchlike [edit] beasties.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Note that Tusk didn't specify a date.

    He specified in line with our request, which was 31st January
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fnckin Rees Mogg ...

    I am not unsympathetic to the point about time, it is simply the deadline of 31 October which was set by the European Union and, therefore, we are compressed in the time available to get this bill delivered, which is why I was willing to support the programme motion and felt that it was reasonable under the circumstances...

    Jerk.

    I mean, it's just so disingenuous. It's very clear that however they arrived at this point, this government didn't have a deal ready in time for it to receive proper scrutiny in Parliament and meet this deadline. Given that circumstance, they opted to argue for not having proper scrutiny over asking to extend the deadline.
    And they did so for political reasons.

    Rushed legislation is bad legislation. Conservatives used to know this. How have they changed so drastically?
    And they don't even seem committed to the legislation as they'll pause rather than even try to go for an additional week of talking, unless they have a rabbit up their sleeve (cannot even put it in a hat properly).
    Note that Tusk didn't specify a date.
    Yet. But come on, the EU will propose something other than 31 January, with helpful signposting for how we can get it done sooner? Picking any other debate embroils them in the UK debate about what to do.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    TudorRose said:

    nico67 said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    It’s a bit weird now . Johnson now owns a deal , can he really go no deal in his manifesto. If he doesn’t go no deal what happens with rent a gob Farage .

    Labour although polling poorly might think the Brexit Party might split the vote .

    The Brexit Party might split the vote - and take Labour Leave with it, whilst the Tory leavers stick with Boris. I seem to recall that the evidence from UKIP was that they took proportionally more Labour votes in 2015 than Tory votes.
    There's been churn since then and the party support is already starting from a position that's more polarised along Brexit lines than it was in 2015.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    But after Brexit is settled - one way or another - what else do the Lib Dems have to keep those that have flocked to them? Other than not being hard-left mentalists (which when thinking about it might be a huge advantage.) Lib Dems have a huge opportunity right now on a very clearly defined policy which sets then completely apart.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Scott_P said:
    This is where you don't want JRM, you want a proper smoozer in that position. I can imagine lots of SNP MPs have a reflex reaction to say no every time JRM says anything.
    He is actually the physical embodiment of the opposite of the SNP
  • Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
  • Scott_P said:
    In fairness, this Government isn't great with wizard wheezes.

    Remember all the willy waving to the effect that there was a loophole they'd found to exploit in the Benn Act? It all boiled down to not putting it on headed paper (so what?), Johnson not getting his crayon out to sign it (shrug), and a side letter saying he didn't really mean it (zero legal effect).

    It's all piss and wind.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    Omnium said:

    Currently I'm planning bombing raids with my Lancasters on important EU targets. (Obviously not the case - I'd not bomb a mouse, but you get the gist)

    Meth. Not even once.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited October 2019
    Anyway after five years of having to do everything and make all the decisions what the fuck do I do for dinner tomorrow, it’s wearing me out trying to not bore myself rigid and still deliver something that’s acceptable. I’m asked forty times what’s for dinner and when I say chili for the 40th time I get not ‘fucking chilli again’
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Although I want this over desperately, I seriously believe that if / when this Deal goes through the UK will have dissolved inside 10 years.

    So I am having a small whisky tonight for another stay of execution.

    I understand what you mean . Let us celebrate that we’re still going to be in the EU a bit longer .

    I bet Donald Tusk was very happy when he saw the result of the programme motion .

    What a lovely man , a true inspiration who fought against Communism in Poland .

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    But after Brexit is settled - one way or another - what else do the Lib Dems have to keep those that have flocked to them? Other than not being hard-left mentalists (which when thinking about it might be a huge advantage.) Lib Dems have a huge opportunity right now on a very clearly defined policy which sets then completely apart.
    Brexit will never be settled until we're in the Eurozone.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    Noo said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    To what? Do you think the new speaker is going to allow the govt to table the same thing over again?
    Just not being a nakedly partisan tool and the unofficial "MP for Remainia" will help enormously.
  • blueblue said:

    Noo said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    To what? Do you think the new speaker is going to allow the govt to table the same thing over again?
    Just not being a nakedly partisan tool and the unofficial "MP for Remainia" will help enormously.
    Depends who replaces him. You think Harriet Harperson will be better?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,117
    nico67 said:

    Although I want this over desperately, I seriously believe that if / when this Deal goes through the UK will have dissolved inside 10 years.

    So I am having a small whisky tonight for another stay of execution.

    I understand what you mean . Let us celebrate that we’re still going to be in the EU a bit longer .

    I bet Donald Tusk was very happy when he saw the result of the programme motion .

    What a lovely man , a true inspiration who fought against Communism in Poland .

    Tusk really is one of those people who transcends....someone who is visionary and utterly humane
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
    Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.

    As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    Election is probably better for Boris than a delayed Brexit followed by election. He can play the 'blocking parliament' card and give me a majority and I give you a deal

    Best hope that Labour do not rally, and BXP remain around their current level, or less. It's risky - he may well have the numbers now, he should go for it I think, just in case he doesn't get another chance. Imagine being the man who had the numbers to pass a Brexit deal but he tossed it away because he wanted a bigger majority now, not waiting a few more weeks.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited October 2019
    Scott_P said:
    SNP will want an election before Alex is in court for alleged historical sex crime allegations in January I'd have thought. ;)
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    Scott_P said:

    Note that Tusk didn't specify a date.

    He specified in line with our request, which was 31st January
    Well. You could read it like that. But he said "accept the UK request for an extension". He pointedly didn't say "accept the extension request to 31st January 2020". He didn't say "in line". At least not from the tweet I saw

    75% sure they will by the way, but an "extension" could be any period.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    nico67 said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    Bercow has helped to stop the UK crashing out with no deal . For that all those who don’t want no deal should be eternally grateful.

    God bless Bercow !
    We now know no deal was a bluff. The deal will go through we all have to be a bit more patient though. At least the people's vote is now dead.
  • Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
    Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.

    As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
    Poorly worded by me. I meant parties who stand in England (but I also overlooked the likes of Green's).
  • Omnium said:

    No Deal is dead.

    It’s not coming back.

    Therefore we either Leave within a CU, or Boris wins an election in order to pass his piss-poor Deal.

    The last looks most likely but one assumes the Opposition haven’t stopped toying with him yet.

    Whilst no deal is an anti-European thing you're right.

    The no-deal of the ERG, the no-deal of the Xenophobes.

    However the no-deal of the pissed-off may well be a real thing.

    I'm a lifelong Europhile in almost all things, but I rather dislike the EU as an institution. We can build anew, and together. We can't though fix this EU.

    Currently I'm planning bombing raids with my Lancasters on important EU targets. (Obviously not the case - I'd not bomb a mouse, but you get the gist)

    The 'no deal' of failure will happen fast. It'll also stick, and stick for a long time.

    Given that there are only two airworthy Lancs, one of them in Canada, I think the Irish air force could see you off by itself.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Once the extension is secured we need an election. Get it done. Put us out of our misery.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fnckin Rees Mogg ...

    I am not unsympathetic to the point about time, it is simply the deadline of 31 October which was set by the European Union and, therefore, we are compressed in the time available to get this bill delivered, which is why I was willing to support the programme motion and felt that it was reasonable under the circumstances...

    Jerk.

    I mean, it's just so disingenuous. It's very clear that however they arrived at this point, this government didn't have a deal ready in time for it to receive proper scrutiny in Parliament and meet this deadline. Given that circumstance, they opted to argue for not having proper scrutiny over asking to extend the deadline.
    And they did so for political reasons.

    Rushed legislation is bad legislation. Conservatives used to know this. How have they changed so drastically?
    And they don't even seem committed to the legislation as they'll pause rather than even try to go for an additional week of talking, unless they have a rabbit up their sleeve (cannot even put it in a hat properly).
    Note that Tusk didn't specify a date.
    Yet. But come on, the EU will propose something other than 31 January, with helpful signposting for how we can get it done sooner? Picking any other debate embroils them in the UK debate about what to do.
    31/1 only possible extension
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    SNP will want an election before Alex is in court for alleged historical sex crime allegations in January I'd have thought. ;)

    The first date is November
  • blueblue said:

    Noo said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    To what? Do you think the new speaker is going to allow the govt to table the same thing over again?
    Just not being a nakedly partisan tool and the unofficial "MP for Remainia" will help enormously.
    You've not really answered the question.

    The decision not to allow the same thing to be tabled again wasn't some kind of wacky reinterpretation of the rules. It was absolutely blindingly obvious, Speaker 101 stuff. The only reason the Government suggested it was as a publicity stunt so they could be seen to be appalled when it was inevitably rejected (as it would have been by ANY speaker with an IQ above 60).
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875

    blueblue said:

    Noo said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    To what? Do you think the new speaker is going to allow the govt to table the same thing over again?
    Just not being a nakedly partisan tool and the unofficial "MP for Remainia" will help enormously.
    Depends who replaces him. You think Harriet Harperson will be better?
    No, but at least in her case there won't be even the pretense of impartiality!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
    Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.

    As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
    Scottish imo, not very broad though.
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    But after Brexit is settled - one way or another - what else do the Lib Dems have to keep those that have flocked to them? Other than not being hard-left mentalists (which when thinking about it might be a huge advantage.) Lib Dems have a huge opportunity right now on a very clearly defined policy which sets then completely apart.
    I don't know. Probable long-term ambition is to hive off the liberal Conservatives and the right of the Labour party and permanently own the centre ground, leaving the fiscal hawks and nationalists in the Tories and the lefter-than-social-democrats and Bennites in the Labour party, making coalititions with whoever is the least mad at any given election.
    It's an interesting dilemma for them, and I'm not saying I agree with their stance, but that is, I believe, where there thinking is at right now. And, it's easily described as a country-over-party stance if they want to defend that position.
  • Once the extension is secured we need an election. Get it done. Put us out of our misery.

    I am not too keen on having to move to Canada in the middle of winter if Jezza wins....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
    Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.

    As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
    Poorly worded by me. I meant parties who stand in England (but I also overlooked the likes of Green's).
    Thank you.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SNP will want an election before Alex is in court for alleged historical sex crime allegations in January I'd have thought. ;)

    The first date is November
    That's just a preliminary hearing isn't it?

    Maon trial date is set for late January 2020 I think?
  • Off Topic: I cannot log in to make comments on my iphone XR/Safari or see comments on my iPad / iOS 9.3.5. I've noticed this for a few weeks now. Restarted both devices and checked my Disqus password is correct. Anyone else have the same issue?
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875

    blueblue said:

    Noo said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    To what? Do you think the new speaker is going to allow the govt to table the same thing over again?
    Just not being a nakedly partisan tool and the unofficial "MP for Remainia" will help enormously.
    You've not really answered the question.

    The decision not to allow the same thing to be tabled again wasn't some kind of wacky reinterpretation of the rules. It was absolutely blindingly obvious, Speaker 101 stuff. The only reason the Government suggested it was as a publicity stunt so they could be seen to be appalled when it was inevitably rejected (as it would have been by ANY speaker with an IQ above 60).
    And the decision to select the Letwin Amendment, which was literally the only thing that could have stopped the Government's momentum on Saturday?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893

    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
    Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.

    As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
    Scottish imo, not very broad though.
    Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    edited October 2019
    The EU leadership appear ready to progress a 31 January extension...

    It's almost as if the Benn Act architects had pre-agreed the best extension date with them. :wink:
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    Once the extension is secured we need an election. Get it done. Put us out of our misery.

    I am not too keen on having to move to Canada in the middle of winter if Jezza wins....
    Good job that Jezza isn’t going to win.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Robust response from Naz Shah on Labour's WM Mayoral candidate (ex Respect candidate in Bradford West).

    https://twitter.com/NazShahBfd/status/1186744130808041478

    Why can't they both lose?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Scott_P said:

    Didn't the DUP also oppose May's Deal ?

    If so how has Boris 'ditched' them ?

    BoZo secured the deal with the EU by putting a border in the Irish sea
    So people who voted against May's Deal have now voted against the BorisDeal.

    No change there then and nobody been ditched.
    But Bozo went DUP conference and promised that there would be no customs border in the Irish Sea. And then met Vradakar and agreed to put a customs border in the Irish Sea. A complete betrayal. Even May was not that brazen.
    Boris did though produce another plan first which didn't get a warm welcome in Dublin or elsewhere.

    Ultimately the DUP are on a long, slow but downward escalator - if the union means so much to them they need to support full integration within the UK.

    But unionism gets ignored when its an inconvenience to them - see abortion as an example.
    Yes, I think you've nailed it.

    "We're BRITS damn it! But we don't want your stinking abortion or gay marriage laws. We're not THOSE KIND of Brits"
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited October 2019

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Dear EU diplomats

    It is unlikely that there is a brexit deal that can command Government support and gain enough opposition support in a hung parliament. Therefore the only way a deal does get through is through an election.

    Unless you want all this to come back at an EU summit every 3 months and prevent the EU from functioning properly
    No just give us an extension to 2200 that will resolve everything, we can then go back to worry about important things rather than pathetic sovereignty arguments
    As I understand it you don't even live in the UK so no surprise you don't care anout the place as long as it keeps sending you money.
    I have every right to care about what happens in the UK because it will affect my and my children’s rights, the UK do not send me a penny that I haven’t earned or contributed to over the years. I think having paid x,xxx,xxx in tax in my working life I have a right to my £140/week pension as much as anyone. If We all had to come back to the UK I think we might bugger a few things up.
    So I was right. You don't care so long as they keep sending you your money. No wonder you don't understand Leave voters with an attitude like that.

    I don’t give a shit about my £140/week it really is irrelevant I don’t get anything I haven’t earned, possibly in more ways than you have ever done.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    Scott_P said:
    Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    blueblue said:

    Noo said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    To what? Do you think the new speaker is going to allow the govt to table the same thing over again?
    Just not being a nakedly partisan tool and the unofficial "MP for Remainia" will help enormously.
    Your answer is predictably unhelpful. But then, you are a fool.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    Once the extension is secured we need an election. Get it done. Put us out of our misery.

    I am not too keen on having to move to Canada in the middle of winter if Jezza wins....
    Good job that Jezza isn’t going to win.
    ... for Canada? :wink:
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    @Noo thanks for the prompt to watch Blackkklansman. Was excellent.

    Did I miss anything the while?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.

    Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    edited October 2019
    Not at all a stitch up in Ilford South.

    https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1186746190265835522

    Looks as if Mike Gapes is going be challenged by one of Corbyn's acolytes after all. Order the popcorn.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,893
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Didn't the DUP also oppose May's Deal ?

    If so how has Boris 'ditched' them ?

    BoZo secured the deal with the EU by putting a border in the Irish sea
    So people who voted against May's Deal have now voted against the BorisDeal.

    No change there then and nobody been ditched.
    But Bozo went DUP conference and promised that there would be no customs border in the Irish Sea. And then met Vradakar and agreed to put a customs border in the Irish Sea. A complete betrayal. Even May was not that brazen.
    Boris did though produce another plan first which didn't get a warm welcome in Dublin or elsewhere.

    Ultimately the DUP are on a long, slow but downward escalator - if the union means so much to them they need to support full integration within the UK.

    But unionism gets ignored when its an inconvenience to them - see abortion as an example.
    Yes, I think you've nailed it.

    "We're BRITS damn it! But we don't want your stinking abortion or gay marriage laws. We're not THOSE KIND of Brits"
    Notd to mention those nasty dinosaurs. You know, discovered in the 1840s.
  • Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    But after Brexit is settled - one way or another - what else do the Lib Dems have to keep those that have flocked to them? Other than not being hard-left mentalists (which when thinking about it might be a huge advantage.) Lib Dems have a huge opportunity right now on a very clearly defined policy which sets then completely apart.
    Brexit will never be settled until we're in the Eurozone.
    You might as well say Brexit will never be settled until the EU collapses. Both are extremely unlikely verging on impossible but if forced I would bet on the EU collapsing before the UK joined the Euro.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Didn't the DUP also oppose May's Deal ?

    If so how has Boris 'ditched' them ?

    BoZo secured the deal with the EU by putting a border in the Irish sea
    So people who voted against May's Deal have now voted against the BorisDeal.

    No change there then and nobody been ditched.
    But Bozo went DUP conference and promised that there would be no customs border in the Irish Sea. And then met Vradakar and agreed to put a customs border in the Irish Sea. A complete betrayal. Even May was not that brazen.
    Boris did though produce another plan first which didn't get a warm welcome in Dublin or elsewhere.

    Ultimately the DUP are on a long, slow but downward escalator - if the union means so much to them they need to support full integration within the UK.

    But unionism gets ignored when its an inconvenience to them - see abortion as an example.
    Yes, I think you've nailed it.

    "We're BRITS damn it! But we don't want your stinking abortion or gay marriage laws. We're not THOSE KIND of Brits"
    They'd be happier with Gibraltar's arrangement where they can do what they want, and wave the British flag to thumb their nose at the larger state they border.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,124
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    SNP will want an election before Alex is in court for alleged historical sex crime allegations in January I'd have thought. ;)

    The first date is November
    When does the human rights commission report on Labour's Jew hatred, and when does the IPCC report on the Arcura affair?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.

    Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue

    Tory Swinson is still better than Jeremy Corbyn.
  • Scott_P said:
    I bet he's not! But after he has had his little stomp I am sure he will back it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
    Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.

    As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
    Scottish imo, not very broad though.
    Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
    In my experience Scottish accents generally come across really well in England. Better than many regional English accents do, that's for sure.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.

    Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue

    So corbyn does?
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    Noo said:

    blueblue said:

    Noo said:

    Brom said:

    Will be so much easier when Bercow leaves next week

    To what? Do you think the new speaker is going to allow the govt to table the same thing over again?
    Just not being a nakedly partisan tool and the unofficial "MP for Remainia" will help enormously.
    Your answer is predictably unhelpful. But then, you are a fool.
    A compliment from you would be a grave insult, so thank you!
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    TOPPING said:

    @Noo thanks for the prompt to watch Blackkklansman. Was excellent.

    Did I miss anything the while?

    I'm really pleased you enjoyed it!
    The ending was a bit of a sudden change in tone. Like a punch in the gut.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 1,337
    kle4 said:

    TudorRose said:

    RobD said:

    Why doesn't the government just table a motion with another week of debate time?

    There was some pressure (by Tories and LabLeave MPs) on JRM to table a timetable motion tomorrow morning to get the committee stage started tomorrow and then work through the weekend to get everything through by Monday next week. He said an emphatic no, which makes me think the Government has 'a cunning plan'....
    Being fair they got a deal when I thought they wouldn't, so I guess we should wait to see what this cunning plan is. But why that plan cannot also see them table a new motion to show they are continuing to be serious about debating and legislating on this, I do not know.
    I wonder if he'll wait to see if the offer from the EU includes an "or earlier if you sort your shit" clause (as ISTR the last one did). In which case, he might take the couple of weeks left fallow by not being able to call an election over Xmas to try once more with some proper debate - then calling one for January if it's not approved.

    Which would leave us with the same shambles as we had after the leadership election: new realities which need accommodating in a very short space of time. Probably easy enough if Tories win properly; less so if he fails to get a majority.

    The outcome of any election in the next few months will be fascinating for the neutral observer. The starting guess must be a decent Tory majority. Boris will likely keep a fair mass of Leavers on his side... and even if 50pc of the electorate is Remain, a unified 35-40 sticking with him is enough to win big. But:

    - how will Farage behave and will Con/BXP voters listen (ie who will they blame for betrayal?). So far, "Remoaner Parliament" probably ahead.. but a change of narrative to "Hopeless Boris Couldn't Do What He Said" is only a Piers Morgan rant away after a pint with Nige.

    - has Deal Boris started to put doubts in people's minds about his approach ("whoa.. we *don't* actually have Northern Ireland's back? And we now start years more talks even when we 'get brexit done'? Oh, right. That doesn't sound so good").

    - will Corbyn pull off the same trick as last time and close the gap - especially having neutralised a lot of the Magic Money Tree shizz with Saj's spending review and possibly budget? Strong/Stable/Corbyn/Chaos will not be on the lines-to-take sheet.

    - will someone (I'm looking at you Labour) come up with a plan which looks like a workable (soft Brexit) compromise recognising a 52:48 result rather than fence-sitting, and consequently gain a narrative in favour? Unlikely.. but now Boris looks radical, a successful pivot from Lab to consensual, sensible solution-finder would be *really funny*.

    I'm clearly getting into fantasy land now.. so I'd better shut up :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    Scott_P said:
    Talking tough once again then not delivering, is he Boris Johnson or something?
  • Noo said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    But after Brexit is settled - one way or another - what else do the Lib Dems have to keep those that have flocked to them? Other than not being hard-left mentalists (which when thinking about it might be a huge advantage.) Lib Dems have a huge opportunity right now on a very clearly defined policy which sets then completely apart.
    I don't know. Probable long-term ambition is to hive off the liberal Conservatives and the right of the Labour party and permanently own the centre ground, leaving the fiscal hawks and nationalists in the Tories and the lefter-than-social-democrats and Bennites in the Labour party, making coalititions with whoever is the least mad at any given election.
    It's an interesting dilemma for them, and I'm not saying I agree with their stance, but that is, I believe, where there thinking is at right now. And, it's easily described as a country-over-party stance if they want to defend that position.
    Rejoin. Simples. That's the policy for the next 15 years (how long it will take for the EU to let us back in). The Brexit aftermath will be the gift that will keep on giving for the Lib Dems...
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    blueblue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
    I don’t think that the bill will include any redrawing of constituencies to anyone’s advantage. And what do the Tories have to fear from votes at 16?
  • TOPPING said:

    @Noo thanks for the prompt to watch Blackkklansman. Was excellent.

    Did I miss anything the while?

    To be honest no. Same delays, same arguments, same position as 3 hours ago.

    Same time tomorrow.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,236
    Noo said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fnckin Rees Mogg ...

    I am not unsympathetic to the point about time, it is simply the deadline of 31 October which was set by the European Union and, therefore, we are compressed in the time available to get this bill delivered, which is why I was willing to support the programme motion and felt that it was reasonable under the circumstances...

    Jerk.

    I mean, it's just so disingenuous. It's very clear that however they arrived at this point, this government didn't have a deal ready in time for it to receive proper scrutiny in Parliament and meet this deadline. Given that circumstance, they opted to argue for not having proper scrutiny over asking to extend the deadline.
    And they did so for political reasons.

    Rushed legislation is bad legislation. Conservatives used to know this. How have they changed so drastically?
    Well, yes.


    But I think in this case, jerk covered it.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Talking tough once again then not delivering, is he Boris Johnson or something?
    Worth watching Macron. Not for Brexit purposes but generally, he is on something of a journey if you look at his recent policy changes
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    The EU leadership appear ready to progress a 31 January extension...

    It's almost as if the Benn Act architects had pre-agreed the best extension date with them. :wink:


    Now now they will be called traitors next
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1186751149770182656

    Don't remember that on the side of the bus...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Katya Adler - clear and compelling as usual:

    https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1186741366124138498?s=20
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Noo said:

    Noo said:

    nico67 said:

    Labour have to agree an election now . If they really want to fight to get a better deal or another EU ref then they are duty bound to accept the election request .

    It does concern me though weatherwise , it would now be just Sod’s law that we’ll see blizzards on Election Day !

    Just out of interest, who exactly is it you think wants an election?
    I mean, I do, but let's put that to one side.
    I think the true answer to that is probably the SNP and the Lib Dems. But not Johnson, not the Tories and not Labour. Johnson doesn't want to risk being kicked out after just a few months. The Tories, despite their polling leads, are not in as strong a position as they were in 2017 and neither the deal nor Johnson personally are likely to stand up well to the scrutiny of an election campaign. And Labour is not in a good position in the polls and does not have a clear path to an improvement.
    The Lib Dems do not want an election. I spoke with a LD MP in the last few days about this and it was emphatic.
    My interpretation of the reason is that they're afraid the Tories could win a majority and kill Remain for good. Whilst Corbyn's at the helm of Labour, the Lib Dems would be risking selling their main policy for a handful of seats for maybe a couple of years. Is that worth it?
    The up side for the Lib Dems is they are in a perfect position to build from a tiny base on the back of being the only English out and out Remain party.
    Er, they do have some Scots MPs - not a trivial component of the party, including their leader. Not in a position to be out and out Engnats. Britnats yes, under Ms Swinson.

    As a matter of interest, does Ms S come over as English or Scots on TV? I have a tin ear for accents.
    Scottish imo, not very broad though.
    Thanks. That has some bearing on her chances of finding a southern constituency, and whether she should ever wish to do so.
    She is clearly, if occasionally annoyingly, Scottish
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Noo said:

    TOPPING said:

    @Noo thanks for the prompt to watch Blackkklansman. Was excellent.

    Did I miss anything the while?

    I'm really pleased you enjoyed it!
    The ending was a bit of a sudden change in tone. Like a punch in the gut.
    Yes it was threaded with several relevant references and allusions so I thought the end bit was in keeping also.

    Need to Google the whole thing now!
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    DougSeal said:

    blueblue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
    I don’t think that the bill will include any redrawing of constituencies to anyone’s advantage. And what do the Tories have to fear from votes at 16?
    Aside from the fact that many children are just a bit gullible and may easily fall for woke, utopian fantasies?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    edited October 2019
    That’s not the most Boris friendly Telegraph front page I’ve seen.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.

    Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue

    I’m not sure that the insult “Tory Swinson” is going to have the effect you think it will.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Scott_P said:
    Is that a briefing from Dominique Quemant of the Élysée?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,780

    Omnium said:

    No Deal is dead.

    It’s not coming back.

    Therefore we either Leave within a CU, or Boris wins an election in order to pass his piss-poor Deal.

    The last looks most likely but one assumes the Opposition haven’t stopped toying with him yet.

    Whilst no deal is an anti-European thing you're right.

    The no-deal of the ERG, the no-deal of the Xenophobes.

    However the no-deal of the pissed-off may well be a real thing.

    I'm a lifelong Europhile in almost all things, but I rather dislike the EU as an institution. We can build anew, and together. We can't though fix this EU.

    Currently I'm planning bombing raids with my Lancasters on important EU targets. (Obviously not the case - I'd not bomb a mouse, but you get the gist)

    The 'no deal' of failure will happen fast. It'll also stick, and stick for a long time.

    Given that there are only two airworthy Lancs, one of them in Canada, I think the Irish air force could see you off by itself.
    I'm not so sure the Irish airforce has any planes capable of actually firing shots. They ask the RAF for help when the Russians intrude.

    Given that a Lancaster bomber had quite a lot of defensive capability I think it may be the case that just one of the two might be enough.

    Given several squadrons of B-52s though the Irish defensive forces could happily see me off with a 'can you leave Irish airspace' message.





  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    ....
    - will someone (I'm looking at you Labour) come up with a plan which looks like a workable (soft Brexit) compromise recognising a 52:48 result rather than fence-sitting, and consequently gain a narrative in favour? Unlikely.. but now Boris looks radical, a successful pivot from Lab to consensual, sensible solution-finder would be *really funny*.

    I'm clearly getting into fantasy land now.. so I'd better shut up :)

    You are also assuming that Boris's checkered past does not catch up with him...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    blueblue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
    Misuse of the word gerrymandering there, just saying.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,570
    edited October 2019
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Dear EU diplomats

    It is unlikely that there is a brexit deal that can command Government support and gain enough opposition support in a hung parliament. Therefore the only way a deal does get through is through an election.

    Unless you want all this to come back at an EU summit every 3 months and prevent the EU from functioning properly
    No just give us an extension to 2200 that will resolve everything, we can then go back to worry about important things rather than pathetic sovereignty arguments
    As I understand it you don't even live in the UK so no surprise you don't care anout the place as long as it keeps sending you money.
    I have every right to care about what happens in the UK because it will affect my and my children’s rights, the UK do not send me a penny that I haven’t earned or contributed to over the years. I think having paid x,xxx,xxx in tax in my working life I have a right to my £140/week pension as much as anyone. If We all had to come back to the UK I think we might bugger a few things up.
    So I was right. You don't care so long as they keep sending you your money. No wonder you don't understand Leave voters with an attitude like that.

    I don’t give a shit about my £140/week it really is irrelevant I don’t get anything I haven’t earned, possibly in more ways than you have ever done.
    I doubt that very much.

    Moreover you didn't earn any of it. You paid into a system to support the pensioners at he time you were working. Just like the rest of us you were paying it forward in the hope you might get something back when your time came around. But that was it. No guarantees and no promises.

    On top of that you then decided to bugger off to another country. Entirely your choice but you can't then moan if things don't turn out the way you hoped.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875

    blueblue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
    Misuse of the word gerrymandering there, just saying.
    So you mean the left won't seek to amend the bill to improve their electoral chances? Great!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    @Noo thanks for the prompt to watch Blackkklansman. Was excellent.

    Did I miss anything the while?

    To be honest no. Same delays, same arguments, same position as 3 hours ago.

    Same time tomorrow.
    My bet that we would leave the EU by Oct 31 down the drain.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    Danny565 said:

    Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.

    Like I said, a naked gerrymander.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    I see Tory Swinsons number one choice was congratulating Jester and saying if bill given 7 days rather than 3 he would vote for it.

    Tory Swinson really doesn't have a clue

    Tory Swinson is still better than Jeremy Corbyn.
    But a vote for Tory Swinson leads to PM Jestet and hard BREXIT.

    It's either PM Jester or Jezza and a 2nd Referendum
  • NooNoo Posts: 2,380
    blueblue said:

    DougSeal said:

    blueblue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Open to naked gerrymandering by the left, he means?
    I don’t think that the bill will include any redrawing of constituencies to anyone’s advantage. And what do the Tories have to fear from votes at 16?
    Aside from the fact that many children are just a bit gullible and may easily fall for woke, utopian fantasies?
    Yeah. They'll fall for any old shit written down the side of a bus.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited October 2019
    Danny565 said:

    Not just votes at 16, there's probably a majority in the Commons to give votes to EU citizens as well.

    Which ignores the fact that they wont get the election if they try and fiddle it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TOPPING said:

    My bet that we would leave the EU by Oct 31 down the drain.

    https://twitter.com/markaustintv/status/1186731504753360904
This discussion has been closed.