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  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Nigelb said:

    alex. said:

    You would have thought he could have been more original in his insults.

    All very old style. Bernard Manning springs to mind. Does he do a chinky routine as his party trick? Boke.
    Why do you think he appeals so much to the over 60s ?

    He is a shambling anachronism.
    Most over 60s have better taste. He might appeal to the over 80s.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    So what do you suggest ?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    edited July 2019

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    So what do you suggest they do about it - they tried the death tax to cover the cost but other households including the 2 out of 3 dementia patients who didn't have to sell didn't approve...
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
    For what reason ?

    To help bring down May perhaps ?

    And who would gain from that ...
    According to Wikipedia:

    On 9 November 2018, Johnson resigned his position, citing disillusionment with the government's Brexit strategy and called for a fresh vote on Brexit with an option to remain. Johnson argued that Britain was "on the brink of the greatest crisis" since World War Two and claimed that what was on offer was not "anything like what was promised".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Johnson#Brexit

    Seems to tally with my recollection.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Great to see Faisal Islam’s first item for the BBC.

    And not afraid to piss off the No deal death cult .

    Overall it’s been a terrible day for no deal and Bozos lies called out for a change .
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    eek said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
    I'd be fine with that, but obviously socialising, err, social care requires income. I'd be fine with an increase in general taxation to not live in my own piss if I go gaga (at least not without someone to deal with it). However, a lot of people become very resistant to tax increases when they're on the sharp end.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    nico67 said:

    Great to see Faisal Islam’s first item for the BBC.

    And not afraid to piss off the No deal death cult .

    Overall it’s been a terrible day for no deal and Bozos lies called out for a change .

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1151962519495434253
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
    For what reason ?

    To help bring down May perhaps ?

    And who would gain from that ...
    According to Wikipedia:

    On 9 November 2018, Johnson resigned his position, citing disillusionment with the government's Brexit strategy and called for a fresh vote on Brexit with an option to remain. Johnson argued that Britain was "on the brink of the greatest crisis" since World War Two and claimed that what was on offer was not "anything like what was promised".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Johnson#Brexit

    Seems to tally with my recollection.
    And you believed him ???
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
    For what reason ?

    To help bring down May perhaps ?

    And who would gain from that ...
    According to Wikipedia:

    On 9 November 2018, Johnson resigned his position, citing disillusionment with the government's Brexit strategy and called for a fresh vote on Brexit with an option to remain. Johnson argued that Britain was "on the brink of the greatest crisis" since World War Two and claimed that what was on offer was not "anything like what was promised".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Johnson#Brexit

    Seems to tally with my recollection.
    And you believed him ???
    Your explanation for his resignation is...?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    Sean_F said:

    Basically, we're privileged people complaining that our pride has been wounded. None of us are actually going to suffer if Brexit takes place/doesn't take place.

    I don't think that's true.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    Totally on board with his brother. Wonder if he will be in the cabinet?

    Whole family seem to be all about self-promotion.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    eek said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
    When people have been told all your life that the NHS is 'the envy of the world' they tend to get corresponding expectations.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
    For what reason ?

    To help bring down May perhaps ?

    And who would gain from that ...
    According to Wikipedia:

    On 9 November 2018, Johnson resigned his position, citing disillusionment with the government's Brexit strategy and called for a fresh vote on Brexit with an option to remain. Johnson argued that Britain was "on the brink of the greatest crisis" since World War Two and claimed that what was on offer was not "anything like what was promised".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Johnson#Brexit

    Seems to tally with my recollection.
    And you believed him ???
    Your explanation for his resignation is...?
    See my earlier comment.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    What times we live in... Johnson can parade an outright lie and seemingly get away with it. Is there any hope for this country?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    Attended an evening reception with Penny Mordaunt this evening.

    She was hopeful from discussions with the new EU Commission they were open to consider new solutions to avoid a hard border in Ireland.

    Also pleased that despite being a Leaver she was full of praise for what she called 'patriotic Remainers' who had now decides to respect the Brexit vote.

    She was then off to Africa at 3am
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    What times we live in... Johnson can parade an outright lie and seemingly get away with it. Is there any hope for this country?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873

    Did you miss twenty years of his journalism?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
    For what reason ?

    To help bring down May perhaps ?

    And who would gain from that ...
    According to Wikipedia:

    On 9 November 2018, Johnson resigned his position, citing disillusionment with the government's Brexit strategy and called for a fresh vote on Brexit with an option to remain. Johnson argued that Britain was "on the brink of the greatest crisis" since World War Two and claimed that what was on offer was not "anything like what was promised".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Johnson#Brexit

    Seems to tally with my recollection.
    And you believed him ???
    Your explanation for his resignation is...?
    See my earlier comment.
    Well, don't let the facts get in the way of your beliefs:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jo-johnson-resignation-letter-in-full-brexit-ministers-quit-boris-final-say-eu-referendum-a8627041.html
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    OnboardG1 said:

    What times we live in... Johnson can parade an outright lie and seemingly get away with it. Is there any hope for this country?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873

    Did you miss twenty years of his journalism?
    Fortunately, yes.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    FACK OFF.

    NI is a tax on work.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure those numbers make sense. Am I missing something?

    Global pop = 7.7 billion, 1% 77 million.

    EU & US labourforce = 400 million.

    Even ignoring China, Japan, Brazil, India, Australia, Canada etc, there is no way only 77/400 across EU & US earn $32.4k
    Good challenge... made me look at the source in more detail. Looks like the income value is net of taxes but I am not sure that makes that much difference.

    You can try it yourself...

    http://www.globalrichlist.com
    Lets say half the top1% are EU/US and half ROW, then top 1% global would be around top 10% EU/US workforce. Top 10% Uk after tax something like £45k. Would be surprised if that is not much closer to top 1% globally than £26k
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    NI on pensions and unearned income would be a fair start but won't play well with Tory party members.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
    You should get out more.
    I think TSE has a point that you can not get closer to people than ‘most’ doctors and that they work for a living, in marketing terms they are perceived as b1 but I bet they are more aware of the issues facing society.
    I agree most doctors have a lot of contact with people from all walks of life but that doesn't make them working class.

    PS I know TSE is just winding us up with his northern working class lad schtick. I enjoy biting on it.
    Oddly enough I grew up in Liverpool where my mother in particular was determined to be middle class and leave her roots behind by voting Tory. They were in those days sane and a reasonable alternative I can’t deny my so called middle class background, master mariner and teacher for parents but is class really a defining approach to how you vote? I would hope we’ve moved on from that
    The Tories are pretty classless now, those who really want to show they have left their working class roots behind now vote LD
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,733

    eek said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
    When people have been told all your life that the NHS is 'the envy of the world' they tend to get corresponding expectations.
    NHS has never covered social care.

    I was down on the Isle of Wight last week sorting out my Mother in Laws bungalow, so it can be sold to pay for her social care. She saved for a rainy day, and now it is pissing down. It should cover up to 3 years of care costs.

    She really like her new care home, the food is good and staff cheerful and helpful. She is in the best spirits she has been in a year. Well worth it.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    edited July 2019

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
    For what reason ?

    To help bring down May perhaps ?

    And who would gain from that ...
    According to Wikipedia:

    On 9 November 2018, Johnson resigned his position, citing disillusionment with the government's Brexit strategy and called for a fresh vote on Brexit with an option to remain. Johnson argued that Britain was "on the brink of the greatest crisis" since World War Two and claimed that what was on offer was not "anything like what was promised".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo_Johnson#Brexit

    Seems to tally with my recollection.
    And you believed him ???
    Your explanation for his resignation is...?
    See my earlier comment.
    Well, don't let the facts get in the way of your beliefs:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jo-johnson-resignation-letter-in-full-brexit-ministers-quit-boris-final-say-eu-referendum-a8627041.html
    And you believe him ???

    I'm with kinabalu on the Johnson family.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
    When people have been told all your life that the NHS is 'the envy of the world' they tend to get corresponding expectations.
    NHS has never covered social care.

    I was down on the Isle of Wight last week sorting out my Mother in Laws bungalow, so it can be sold to pay for her social care. She saved for a rainy day, and now it is pissing down. It should cover up to 3 years of care costs.

    She really like her new care home, the food is good and staff cheerful and helpful. She is in the best spirits she has been in a year. Well worth it.
    I’m both happy for her and sorry for her. Best wishes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
    When people have been told all your life that the NHS is 'the envy of the world' they tend to get corresponding expectations.
    NHS has never covered social care.

    I was down on the Isle of Wight last week sorting out my Mother in Laws bungalow, so it can be sold to pay for her social care. She saved for a rainy day, and now it is pissing down. It should cover up to 3 years of care costs.

    She really like her new care home, the food is good and staff cheerful and helpful. She is in the best spirits she has been in a year. Well worth it.
    That is good to hear. The problems are manifest, including the total lottery of it all.

    If there were compelling, indeed overwhelming, reasons to create the NHS and take the terrible worry away over health, then why not the same for old age and dementia/parkinsons etc?????
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    edited July 2019

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure those numbers make sense. Am I missing something?

    Global pop = 7.7 billion, 1% 77 million.

    EU & US labourforce = 400 million.

    Even ignoring China, Japan, Brazil, India, Australia, Canada etc, there is no way only 77/400 across EU & US earn $32.4k
    Good challenge... made me look at the source in more detail. Looks like the income value is net of taxes but I am not sure that makes that much difference.

    You can try it yourself...

    http://www.globalrichlist.com
    Lets say half the top1% are EU/US and half ROW, then top 1% global would be around top 10% EU/US workforce. Top 10% Uk after tax something like £45k. Would be surprised if that is not much closer to top 1% globally than £26k
    According to this the 90th percentile in 2016/17 was £42,900 after tax so £45k looks about right... but crucially that was for taxpayers (presumably income taxpayers) only. That's about 31m so roughly half the population.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    edited July 2019
    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    Wasn't the age at which more voted Tory than Labour up to 47 last time? Seems an ideal way to push that age higher.
    The 50 to 60 age group don't generally need much social care. Surely it should be paid for by all, or by the ones using it? Not some arbitrary age group?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    FACK OFF.

    NI is a tax on work.

    Back to shaking the magic money tree then I guess!
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    TGOHF said:

    Lidlington and Barnwell come across as a right pair of fannies.

    But Barwell will soon be Sir.Gavin Barwell no doubt after the resignation honors list
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
    When people have been told all your life that the NHS is 'the envy of the world' they tend to get corresponding expectations.
    NHS has never covered social care.

    I was down on the Isle of Wight last week sorting out my Mother in Laws bungalow, so it can be sold to pay for her social care. She saved for a rainy day, and now it is pissing down. It should cover up to 3 years of care costs.

    She really like her new care home, the food is good and staff cheerful and helpful. She is in the best spirits she has been in a year. Well worth it.
    She has been very responsible.

    But there's lots of people who aren't or who have a greater sense of entitlement or think that if someone else is getting it for free then so should they or who have believed all the 'cradle to the grave' / 'envy of the world' lines.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    NI on pensions and unearned income would be a fair start but won't play well with Tory party members.
    FFS somebody has to pay!! This debate makes me so mad it is indescribable.



  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    FACK OFF.

    NI is a tax on work.
    So - your alternative for funding social care is?

    Everybody seems to have solutions they hate. Nobody seems to have solutions they could live with. :anguished:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    Wasn't the age at which more voted Tory than Labour up to 47 last time? Seems an ideal way to push that age higher.
    The 50 to 60 age group don't generally need much social care. Surely it should be paid for by all, or by the ones using it? Not some arbitrary age group?
    I would not introduce it until after the next general election but give a vague manifesto commitment to review the way it is funded in a way that tries to protect the family home that does not rule it out.

    50s to 65s tend to no longer have children at home or at university for much if the time, they tend to have paid off the mortgage and in future most will have paid off student loans yet still are earning more than they will as pensioners. They are the age group to target for an NI increase
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    edited July 2019

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    NI on pensions and unearned income would be a fair start but won't play well with Tory party members.
    FFS somebody has to pay!! This debate makes me so mad it is indescribable.

    I'm with you. NI on pensions and unearned income would (now) hit me quite hard. But how is it fair that I pay less tax and NI on my income than someone who is working full-time to achieve the same income?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    FACK OFF.

    NI is a tax on work.

    Back to shaking the magic money tree then I guess!
    I'd tax consumption and property more and dress it up with some environmental trimmings.

    And I'd put social care under the NHS umbrella so that politicians could claim they had increased NHS spending.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited July 2019
    OnboardG1 said:

    What times we live in... Johnson can parade an outright lie and seemingly get away with it. Is there any hope for this country?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873

    Did you miss twenty years of his journalism?
    I'm not sure which bodes worse for his admittedly very short premiership - he is a liar or he does not check even basic details.

    I am guessing as the red boxes pile up at No 10 late at night the civil service are not going to be happy with the latter.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    FACK OFF.

    NI is a tax on work.

    Back to shaking the magic money tree then I guess!
    I'd tax consumption and property more and dress it up with some environmental trimmings.

    And I'd put social care under the NHS umbrella so that politicians could claim they had increased NHS spending.
    Well ok. Either way taxes have to go up.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,289
    edited July 2019
    Thinking of how the actors would play the 14 days after any No Deal VoNC, needing to join to at least extend.

    Various LDs, Inds and certainly Tory rebels will not want Corbyn,. Lab will make an effort to resist. There will also be differences on what to do, Extend & Referend, (Lib) Extend & Negotiate More (Lab).

    Do Labour's rules even allow an MP who is not party leader to become PM? I imagine the Labour leadership, who never miss a beat in forcing the left's advantage within the party, would push Long-Bailey as a typically cursory compromise if at all possible and the 14 day limit would hold the other parties to the fire. Labour leadership could well get their way, the likely quid pro quo being a confidence agreement, as such, would cover just Extension.

    Even then that temporary government has to be wound down within the terms of FTPA and, in the mirror of Boris trying to force an election as described by Mr Meeks' thread header, Labour would have to agree a dissolution with Boris, or Boris would have to bring a VoNC, or the smaller parties, having concluded the agreement.would have to navigate a process.of raising a non LOTO VoNC.

    The Labour left might be tempted to hold on for a bit, see what executive levers they could pull, and establish RLB as de facto leader ahead of a post GE party leadership election which, they might hope, would by that point be very likely to rubber-stamp the situation on the ground.

    What price RLB spends more days of 2019 as prime minister than Boris does?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    HYUFD said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    National Insurance rises for over 50s as Damian Green suggested would be sensible
    FACK OFF.

    NI is a tax on work.

    Back to shaking the magic money tree then I guess!
    I'd tax consumption and property more and dress it up with some environmental trimmings.

    And I'd put social care under the NHS umbrella so that politicians could claim they had increased NHS spending.
    I could live with that. But I want some details. I can see a situation where social care under NHS is another Cinderella service (underfunded and sneered upon) as mental health has been for decades. We seem to be finally at least talking about mental health.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    edited July 2019
    The money tree on this thread is out of coins
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure those numbers make sense. Am I missing something?

    Global pop = 7.7 billion, 1% 77 million.

    EU & US labourforce = 400 million.

    Even ignoring China, Japan, Brazil, India, Australia, Canada etc, there is no way only 77/400 across EU & US earn $32.4k
    Good challenge... made me look at the source in more detail. Looks like the income value is net of taxes but I am not sure that makes that much difference.

    You can try it yourself...

    http://www.globalrichlist.com
    Lets say half the top1% are EU/US and half ROW, then top 1% global would be around top 10% EU/US workforce. Top 10% Uk after tax something like £45k. Would be surprised if that is not much closer to top 1% globally than £26k
    According to this the 90th percentile in 2016/17 was £42,900 after tax so £45k looks about right... but crucially that was for taxpayers (presumably income taxpayers) only. That's about 31m so roughly half the population.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/percentile-points-from-1-to-99-for-total-income-before-and-after-tax
    My starting point was 400m in Eu/US labourforce (not population) so top 10% of those gives 40m which is just over half the 77m needed globally.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Pro_Rata said:

    Thinking of how the actors would play the 14 days after any No Deal VoNC, needing to join to at least extend.

    Various LDs, Inds and certainly Tory rebels will not want Corbyn,. Lab will make an effort to resist. There will also be differences on what to do, Extend & Referend, (Lib) Extend & Negotiate More (Lab).

    Do Labour's rules even allow an MP who is not party leader to become PM? I imagine the Labour leadership, who never miss a beat in forcing the left's advantage within the party, would push Long-Bailey as a typically cursory compromise if at all possible and the 14 day limit would hold the other parties to the fire. Labour leadership could well get their way, the likely quid pro quo being a confidence agreement, as such, would cover just Extension.

    Even then that temporary government has to be wound down within the terms of FTPA and, in the mirror of Boris trying to force an election as described by Mr Meeks' thread header, Labour would have to agree a dissolution with Boris, or Boris would have to bring a VoNC, or the smaller parties, having concluded the agreement.would have to navigate a process.of raising a non LOTO VoNC.

    The Labour left might be tempted to hold on for a bit, see what executive levers they could pull, and establish RLB as de facto leader ahead of a post GE party leadership election which, they might hope, would by that point be very likely to rubber-stamp the situation on the ground.

    What price RLB spends more days of 2019 as prime minister than Boris does?

    Unless there's any prospect of Labour commanding a majority in the current HoC (there isn't) wouldn't Boris stay as PM after a VoNC until the GE?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    geoffw said:

    and p.s. the main hangover from the Barber boom was the record inflation of the early to mid-1970s.

    Good point. The Barber Boom was the key economic cockup of the seventies from which all the others follow on. Brexit is skewering the Tory reputation for competence, but it is as well not to imagine it was every deservered in the first place.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918

    The problem is that every solution they've ever come up with for this has been met with huge backlash by some part of the electorate. FWIW I thought that both Brown ("Death Tax") and May ("Dementia Tax") both came up with reasonably fair solutions to the problem but it's so easy to characature as "Attacks on hard working people's savings" that I feel like it isn't ever going to get fixed.
    Yep I've now seen the article text of the article. Most people (8 out of 10) belief the magic money tree NHS should be paying all the costs...
    When people have been told all your life that the NHS is 'the envy of the world' they tend to get corresponding expectations.
    NHS has never covered social care.

    I was down on the Isle of Wight last week sorting out my Mother in Laws bungalow, so it can be sold to pay for her social care. She saved for a rainy day, and now it is pissing down. It should cover up to 3 years of care costs.

    She really like her new care home, the food is good and staff cheerful and helpful. She is in the best spirits she has been in a year. Well worth it.
    My mother about to enter a care home next week and I will be going through the same process, selling property etc. It will cover her costs for 6 years but I do worry about what happens then but as she is in her 90's we may be worrying about nothing.

    I think it is perfectly fair that she uses her resources for her own care but I wonder what the economic impact overall will be as inheritances increasingly cease to be passed on but swallowed up in care fees. I have a number of friends and acquaintances who would normally have expected to inherit but now won't. There must be an economic aspect in there somewhere.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,572

    Pro_Rata said:

    Thinking of how the actors would play the 14 days after any No Deal VoNC, needing to join to at least extend.

    Various LDs, Inds and certainly Tory rebels will not want Corbyn,. Lab will make an effort to resist. There will also be differences on what to do, Extend & Referend, (Lib) Extend & Negotiate More (Lab).

    Do Labour's rules even allow an MP who is not party leader to become PM? I imagine the Labour leadership, who never miss a beat in forcing the left's advantage within the party, would push Long-Bailey as a typically cursory compromise if at all possible and the 14 day limit would hold the other parties to the fire. Labour leadership could well get their way, the likely quid pro quo being a confidence agreement, as such, would cover just Extension.

    Even then that temporary government has to be wound down within the terms of FTPA and, in the mirror of Boris trying to force an election as described by Mr Meeks' thread header, Labour would have to agree a dissolution with Boris, or Boris would have to bring a VoNC, or the smaller parties, having concluded the agreement.would have to navigate a process.of raising a non LOTO VoNC.

    The Labour left might be tempted to hold on for a bit, see what executive levers they could pull, and establish RLB as de facto leader ahead of a post GE party leadership election which, they might hope, would by that point be very likely to rubber-stamp the situation on the ground.

    What price RLB spends more days of 2019 as prime minister than Boris does?

    Unless there's any prospect of Labour commanding a majority in the current HoC (there isn't) wouldn't Boris stay as PM after a VoNC until the GE?
    Yep. Just as May could stay on if it is clear there is no chance of Boris commanding a majority, so Boris would also remain PM until there is either a candidate who commands majority support in the House or, after 14 days, there is a dissolution for a GE.

    However appealing it might be, 'Not Being Boris' is not enough to get a foot inside No 10 unless one can show one can command a majority.
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