Interesting to see Tories who were never seen as part of the awkward squad voting against the government .
years.
nutters I guess
In all seriousness if I were a Tory MP (I never will be) even as a determined Leaver and someone who would always choose No Deal over Remain were that the final choice, I would have voted for this amendment. There are some very basic principles involved and suspending Parliament just to prevent them doing their job is so far from acceptable as to override even the risks that this might derail Brexit.
👍
That is my view
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras who think they can take us into some dark age and economic armageddon
In the nicest possible way there are a number of you on here whom I struggle to understand why you/they are not in the LDs Those that I am thinking of really have views that are pretty well indistinguishable from mine (or am I in the wrong party?)
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
N problem. I obviously haven't made my mark here then even though I've been in and out since the very beginning
Agree on coalition.
We do differ on Brexit however. I think it has to be killed stone dead.
And I respect your view and the Lib Dems are reaping the benefits of being honest, as are the SNP
Cheers. Good luck with your battle within the Conservative party, but if not successful you will always be welcome this side of the fence.
As Trump descends further into the gutter how does the future PM deal with this .
The disgusting scenes at his rally last night mean a UK PM being seen to be too close to Trump could seriously harm their appeal .
Indeed a simple re hash of the infamous Tory poster but this time with Bozo in Trumps pocket could suffice !
Just when you think he cannot get any uglier he does just that.
Big test of the American people coming up next year.
Nothing is more important than that they prove up to it. I have to believe they will be.
With Salvini's Lega Nord still on 36% and 12.5% ahead of the 2nd placed Democratic Party in the latest Italian poll this week and Bolsonaro having been elected President in Brazil last year, the idea that Trump is somehow unique is not correct. Indeed we voted for Brexit before Trump arrived
HYUFD you do NOT represent the whole of your party. You are, in my view, an extremist and at the moment you make the most noise.
But 1/3rd of Tory voters are Remainers and you would do very, very, well not to forget this.
Indeed - vast majority of my friends (in SE) are effectively Tory remainers; and none of them voted for the Tories in the recent Euro elections
That's good, since apparently there is nothing more Tory than not voting Tory at the Euros, given how many of those who backed the BXP party believe they are still the one true tories,
How much longer are they intending to drag out this Tory leadership campaign? It's been two candidates forever. The tail end of the current administration with Theresa pretending to be relevant and Hammond running around defecating on the carpets to spite the next incumbent is deeply unnecessary and life support needs to be shut off stat.
Result next wednesday but hustings have finished. It has gone on far too long
Thank the Lord for that. What on earth was it in aid of? When there were plenty of candidates one could see the point.
It might have been more tolerable had the result not been such a foregone conclusion. As it is the zombie government of May has staggered on to yet more defeats and little purpose.
The point was to run the contest right up to the recess to avoid the new PM being VONC'd in his first week. Even now, the result is to be dragged out: votes counted Monday; announced Tuesday; Palace Wednesday; recess Thursday.
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras who think they can take us into some dark age and economic armageddon
In the nicest possible way there are a number of you on here whom I struggle to understand why you/they are not in the LDs Those that I am thinking of really have views that are pretty well indistinguishable from mine (or am I in the wrong party?)
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
The nutters will still try No Deal. No Deal needs a wooden stake through the heart....
Today has seen a positive move towards that but it is also important that no deakl's opposite, remain, is put to bed by passing a WDA
I take issue with that Big_G... Remain got 48% of the EUref vote - how much did No Deal get?
Remain is only No Deal's opposite in the sense that good sense is utter madness's opposite.
And in the middle is upholding a democratic vote to leave the EU
The correct course is to leave with a deal and then the opponents to leave campaign to rejoin.
To me that is democracy
Well, even though I am a Remainer through and through I'd have been ok with May's deal. But the anti-EU extremists scuppered that.
Now we seem to be faced with the choice between No Deal and Remain. Fine - let's put it to the country.
Tory Party is unmanageable right now. That makes an election more likely as time passes.
This. All these priggish troublemakers fade into insignificance if you have a large majority.
Still looks like the remain "squad" will get the blame if we don't leave on 31st October.
An election in that scenario should be decisive.
I suspect it won't be. Remain will pick up a few seats, Labour will win more than expected because a referendum is neither here nor there and the Tories will be roughly the same (say -10 to 20 or so seats).
And Parliament would be even more screwed...
100% wrong. It will be the "who governs Britain - the voters or the MPs?" election.
Am I alone in thinking that is always a very stupid question?
The genuine Conservatives are finally losing it with the nutters I guess
In all seriousness if I were a Tory MP (I never will be.
👍
That is my view
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras who think they can take us into some dark age and economic armageddon
In the nicest possible way there are a number of you on here whom I struggle to understand why you/they are not in the LDs Those that I am thinking of really have views that are pretty well indistinguishable from mine (or am I in the wrong party?)
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
The nutters will still try No Deal. No Deal needs a wooden stake through the heart....
Today has seen a positive move towards that but it is also important that no deakl's opposite, remain, is put to bed by passing a WDA
I take issue with that Big_G... Remain got 48% of the EUref vote - how much did No Deal get?
Remain is only No Deal's opposite in the sense that good sense is utter madness's opposite.
And in the middle is upholding a democratic vote to leave the EU
The correct course is to leave with a deal and then the opponents to leave campaign to rejoin.
To me that is democracy
Or avoid all that disruption and hassle and ask people whether they want the deal or not, beforehand.
It’s quite astonishing to see what has happened today .
Dominic Grieves original amendment which was much weaker than this scraped home by one vote .
The Lords then added an amendment , this was strengthened today and it passed by 41 votes !
All this could have been avoided by a simple no to suspend Parliament by Johnson . So in effect he’s forced this issue and the symbolism of such a rebellion amongst the Tories puts a marker down .
I really do think the Tories have badly misjudged this Leadership , there’s no chance Bozo can unite the party .
Gove for all his faults could have done that , the fact he remained loyal to May and did at least try to hold out an olive branch to the more pro EU wing of the party .
I just can’t see how this ends well.
Brexit cannot now be resolved by compromise. It could have been had T May gone down that route in 2016 but now both sides are too deeply entrenched. As Bozo said, it's do or die. And both his premiership and Brexit are going to die.
The thing is so many forecasts of what might happen have ended up not being realized . If someone had told me in early March we’d still be in the EU in the summer I wouldn’t have believed it .
Nothing would shock me anymore .
It's clear that parliament will not countenance no deal and it's also clear that the EU will not change May's deal in any meaningful way. Bozo has set his face so strongly against that deal that he could not credibly recommend anything resembling it to the HoC. So it will not be no deal, it will not be the only deal on offer, ergo it will be remain, probably disguised as another A50 extension initially.
Missing the obvious point that, short of actually getting rid of Boris, Parliament cannot stop a No Deal. And as we have seen before, when it really comes to the crunch votes, the Anti- No Deal side generally seem to come up short.
Quite frankly te difference between having 'an elected representative [responsible] for the direction that policing takes in your area' and a Police Committee consisting of councillors seems to be that under the former we have less police on the streets, and generally speaking they are less effective.
I find it more baffling since at least in my area there is still a police committee consisting of councillors which scrutinises the PCC's actions, so I don't see that all that much has been added by making the latter the responsible one.
Tory Party is unmanageable right now. That makes an election more likely as time passes.
This. All these priggish troublemakers fade into insignificance if you have a large majority.
Still looks like the remain "squad" will get the blame if we don't leave on 31st October.
An election in that scenario should be decisive.
I suspect it won't be. Remain will pick up a few seats, Labour will win more than expected because a referendum is neither here nor there and the Tories will be roughly the same (say -10 to 20 or so seats).
And Parliament would be even more screwed...
100% wrong. It will be the "who governs Britain - the voters or the MPs?" election.
Am I alone in thinking that is always a very stupid question?
I think the bigger reason to leave is that remain will be a very unstable and uncomfortable place to be, we would likely be one GE or one recession away from a no deal and a Brexit party govt. That is not a place long term businesses will enjoy investing in.
If we could start from 2014 remain would be the best option, from where we are I agree with BigG that something along the lines of WA is least bad.
If Boris calls an election and narrowly loses, no idea what Corbyn, his party, SNP and LDs could all agree on. We could get a mirror image govt mess for another couple of years.
It’s quite astonishing to see what has happened today .
Dominic Grieves original amendment which was much weaker than this scraped home by one vote .
The Lords then added an amendment , this was strengthened today and it passed by 41 votes !
All this could have been avoided by a simple no to suspend Parliament by Johnson . So in effect he’s forced this issue and the symbolism of such a rebellion amongst the Tories puts a marker down .
I really do think the Tories have badly misjudged this Leadership , there’s no chance Bozo can unite the party .
Gove for all his faults could have done that , the fact he remained loyal to May and did at least try to hold out an olive branch to the more pro EU wing of the party .
I just can’t see how this ends well.
Brexit cannot now be resolved by compromise. It could have been had T May gone down that route in 2016 but now both sides are too deeply entrenched. As Bozo said, it's do or die. And both his premiership and Brexit are going to die.
The thing is so many forecasts of what might happen have ended up not being realized . If someone had told me in early March we’d still be in the EU in the summer I wouldn’t have believed it .
Nothing would shock me anymore .
It's clear that parliament will not countenance no deal and it's also clear that the EU will not change May's deal in any meaningful way. Bozo has set his face so strongly against that deal that he could not credibly recommend anything resembling it to the HoC. So it will not be no deal, it will not be the only deal on offer, ergo it will be remain, probably disguised as another A50 extension initially.
Missing the obvious point that, short of actually getting rid of Boris, Parliament cannot stop a No Deal. And as we have seen before, when it really comes to the crunch votes, the Anti- No Deal side generally seem to come up short.
That's what makes the next three and a half months so fascinating!
This vote has delivered a big hit to Johnson's authority, I think. He is at peak leverage right now. Everyone expects him to be next prime minister, Conservative MPs are looking to his patronage but haven't yet been disappointed in getting the jobs they want.
Despite that, Johnson lost badly. He won't win any election if he gets the reputation of not being in control.
It’s quite astonishing to see what has happened today .
Dominic Grieves original amendment which was much weaker than this scraped home by one vote .
The Lords then added an amendment , this was strengthened today and it passed by 41 votes !
All this could have been avoided by a simple no to suspend Parliament by Johnson . So in effect he’s forced this issue and the symbolism of such a rebellion amongst the Tories puts a marker down .
I really do think the Tories have badly misjudged this Leadership , there’s no chance Bozo can unite the party .
Gove for all his faults could have done that , the fact he remained loyal to May and did at least try to hold out an olive branch to the more pro EU wing of the party .
I just can’t see how this ends well.
Brexit cannot now be resolved by compromise. It could have been had T May gone down that route in 2016 but now both sides are too deeply entrenched. As Bozo said, it's do or die. And both his premiership and Brexit are going to die.
The thing is so many forecasts of what might happen have ended up not being realized . If someone had told me in early March we’d still be in the EU in the summer I wouldn’t have believed it .
Nothing would shock me anymore .
It's clear that parliament will not countenance no deal and it's also clear that the EU will not change May's deal in any meaningful way. Bozo has set his face so strongly against that deal that he could not credibly recommend anything resembling it to the HoC. So it will not be no deal, it will not be the only deal on offer, ergo it will be remain, probably disguised as another A50 extension initially.
Missing the obvious point that, short of actually getting rid of Boris, Parliament cannot stop a No Deal. And as we have seen before, when it really comes to the crunch votes, the Anti- No Deal side generally seem to come up short.
Today was proxy no deal vote. Had it been a genuine no deal vote many of the Tories who abstained would have voted against and the majority against no deal would have been close to 100.
Interesting to see Tories who were never seen as part of the awkward squad voting against the government .
Keith Simpson never figured in anyone’s calculations . He’s never rebelled before in 22 years.
The genuine Conservatives are finally losing it with the nutters I guess
👍
That is my view
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras who think they can take us into some dark age and economic armageddon
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
The nutters will still try No Deal. No Deal needs a wooden stake through the heart....
Today has seen a positive move towards that but it is also important that no deal's opposite, remain, is put to bed by passing a WDA
Not so sure about that as any Brexit is worse economically than remain. Immigration is just going to increase from outside Europe as wages will be much higher in the UK than Pakistan, India or Africa for instance. Businesses that sell into the EU will still have to conform to EU standards which probably means suppliers to that market who sell in the UK market will have the same features. I dont see any point in deminishing the UK economically or politically for little gain. 17.4 million people may have voted for Brexit but 50 million UK citizens did not. Given this and the negative economic impact of Brexit suggests to me another referendum.
I think the bigger reason to leave is that remain will be a very unstable and uncomfortable place to be, we would likely be one GE or one recession away from a no deal and a Brexit party govt. That is not a place long term businesses will enjoy investing in.
If we could start from 2014 remain would be the best option, from where we are I agree with BigG that something along the lines of WA is least bad.
If Boris calls an election and narrowly loses, no idea what Corbyn, his party, SNP and LDs could all agree on. We could get a mirror image govt mess for another couple of years.
Even Corbyn's labour is largely remain so I suspect you would have a renegotiation to some variation of Norway followed by a Norway v remain referendum..
That is very well said. One can question his own motives (and though he is not one of them, the hardcore remainiacs should not be allowed to get away with being extreme and self righteous just because people like that they are for remain), but the contempt for any rule, institution or convention of the Tories now I find bizarre given what they believe about themselves. It's no different to someone believing it impossible they could be racist because they are a good person, these people believe they care about various things but their actions state otherwise.
Of course, judge people by their actions and an awful lot of people claim to be for Brexit but spend most of their time voting against it then blaming others for us not having left.
I hope you’re right . Trump is a cancer not just on the USA but the world . Soon his baying mob will be shouting string her up . These are very dark times for the USA , and by extension the rest of us . Trump is enabling a new very ugly type of politics.
Agree with every word except "new".
We have seen this before all too often.
What's new is seeing it in the White House. Truly shocking. And scary.
You know, I peeked into the 'other' PB.com a little while ago. Goodness, what a civilised place that was compared to here.
SeanT is still there, ranting admittedly but still there. TSE is still got a raging..... well, he still likes Cameron. And the discussions are civil. All the talk is about how Osborne is the shoe in against May. He basically got to pick his opponent, and Theresa May, well she might've been okay as Home Secretary but as PM material she'll never beat the Boy Wonder.
Announcement of that Leadership contest is during Conference season and its widely expected Osborne will win, win handily and then go on to beat Corbyn in 2020 for his majority. Sure, Farage and UKIP are still a threat but three years later after the 52% Remain win, the country is moving on.
And Osborne's win next year will mean the end of Corbyn and hopefully the Labour party can get back on its feet again. There's talk Benn or Watson will take over, or even Ed make a return.
Of course, the Lib Dems are still struggling on 10%, but Farron can't have it all.
What a civilised place that place is!
They could do a remake of the Man in the High Castle set in Brexitlandia 2030 where people can travel between that reality and a different world in which Remain won.
The better alternative reality is the one where Cameron realised how historic and valuable an opportunity the coalition presented him with, and he acted to accommodate rather than destroy his coalition partners.
They are still in power, and there was no referendum.
You know, I peeked into the 'other' PB.com a little while ago. Goodness, what a civilised place that was compared to here.
SeanT is still there, ranting admittedly but still there. TSE is still got a raging..... well, he still likes Cameron. And the discussions are civil. All the talk is about how Osborne is the shoe in against May. He basically got to pick his opponent, and Theresa May, well she might've been okay as Home Secretary but as PM material she'll never beat the Boy Wonder.
Announcement of that Leadership contest is during Conference season and its widely expected Osborne will win, win handily and then go on to beat Corbyn in 2020 for his majority. Sure, Farage and UKIP are still a threat but three years later after the 52% Remain win, the country is moving on.
And Osborne's win next year will mean the end of Corbyn and hopefully the Labour party can get back on its feet again. There's talk Benn or Watson will take over, or even Ed make a return.
Of course, the Lib Dems are still struggling on 10%, but Farron can't have it all.
What a civilised place that place is!
They could do a remake of the Man in the High Castle set in Brexitlandia 2030 where people can travel between that reality and a different world in which Remain won.
There would be a lot of refugees desperately trying to escape from Remainica to Brexitlandia
I think the bigger reason to leave is that remain will be a very unstable and uncomfortable place to be, we would likely be one GE or one recession away from a no deal and a Brexit party govt. That is not a place long term businesses will enjoy investing in.
If we could start from 2014 remain would be the best option, from where we are I agree with BigG that something along the lines of WA is least bad.
If Boris calls an election and narrowly loses, no idea what Corbyn, his party, SNP and LDs could all agree on. We could get a mirror image govt mess for another couple of years.
Even Corbyn's labour is largely remain so I suspect you would have a renegotiation to some variation of Norway followed by a Norway v remain referendum..
They could probably have got that from T May at the end.....and it will be better to be the opposition rather than govt whenever Brexit happens.
You know, I peeked into the 'other' PB.com a little while ago. Goodness, what a civilised place that was compared to here.
SeanT is still there, ranting admittedly but still there. TSE is still got a raging..... well, he still likes Cameron. And the discussions are civil. All the talk is about how Osborne is the shoe in against May. He basically got to pick his opponent, and Theresa May, well she might've been okay as Home Secretary but as PM material she'll never beat the Boy Wonder.
Announcement of that Leadership contest is during Conference season and its widely expected Osborne will win, win handily and then go on to beat Corbyn in 2020 for his majority. Sure, Farage and UKIP are still a threat but three years later after the 52% Remain win, the country is moving on.
And Osborne's win next year will mean the end of Corbyn and hopefully the Labour party can get back on its feet again. There's talk Benn or Watson will take over, or even Ed make a return.
Of course, the Lib Dems are still struggling on 10%, but Farron can't have it all.
What a civilised place that place is!
They could do a remake of the Man in the High Castle set in Brexitlandia 2030 where people can travel between that reality and a different world in which Remain won.
There would be a lot of refugees desperately trying to escape from Remainica to Brexitlandia
I've got a feeling it may be like comparing the Republic of Ireland with Northern Ireland...
Scarily thinking about it for 2 seconds that works on a political level as well as an economic one..
I think the bigger reason to leave is that remain will be a very unstable and uncomfortable place to be, we would likely be one GE or one recession away from a no deal and a Brexit party govt. That is not a place long term businesses will enjoy investing in.
If we could start from 2014 remain would be the best option, from where we are I agree with BigG that something along the lines of WA is least bad.
If Boris calls an election and narrowly loses, no idea what Corbyn, his party, SNP and LDs could all agree on. We could get a mirror image govt mess for another couple of years.
That's where another referendum would help: Deal v No Deal v Remain.
No Deal wins? So be it - at least the country has voted for any economic chaos that ensues.
Deal wins? Ok, let's sign up to the deal and leave (albeit, we will still have the transition period during which Brexit will remain all-consuming).
Remain wins? Revoke and we Remain on the existing terms. Brexiteers will need to engineer and win a further referendum to re-open leaving. Frankly if Remain wins I think the whole project will be dead and we can forget about Brexit for good.
Erm... There is a recess next week for at least a month, so MPs can have a holiday.
Why are MPs already on family holidays?
Holiday prices go up from next week?
We have a winner.
What a whiner that man must be.
AS I stated before he is Scottish with Scottish school holidays... By the time he could go on holiday after Parliament is closed his children will be back at school...
Tory Party is unmanageable right now. That makes an election more likely as time passes.
This. All these priggish troublemakers fade into insignificance if you have a large majority.
Still looks like the remain "squad" will get the blame if we don't leave on 31st October.
An election in that scenario should be decisive.
I suspect it won't be. Remain will pick up a few seats, Labour will win more than expected because a referendum is neither here nor there and the Tories will be roughly the same (say -10 to 20 or so seats).
And Parliament would be even more screwed...
100% wrong. It will be the "who governs Britain - the voters or the MPs?" election.
Am I alone in thinking that is always a very stupid question?
It shouldn't need asking. But it does right now.
Whatever the outcome of the elections the voters will have spoken, so asking that question doesn't matter. If they give an answer some people do not like will 'the voters' still be governing? It's meaningless.
It's like those stupid moments when there's some tight vote in the Commons and the government wins and it is framed as the government trying to restrict parliament or something, when parliament made its will known by backing the government.
With Salvini's Lega Nord still on 36% and 12.5% ahead of the 2nd placed Democratic Party in the latest Italian poll this week and Bolsonaro having been elected President in Brazil last year, the idea that Trump is somehow unique is not correct. Indeed we voted for Brexit before Trump arrived.
Trump IS unique in one particular and very important sense.
He is the only full throttle racist to hold the position of American president in modern times.
That is quite remarkable. Certainly something I never expected to see.
It’s quite astonishing to see what has happened today .
Dominic Grieves original amendment which was much weaker than this scraped home by one vote .
The Lords then added an amendment , this was strengthened today and it passed by 41 votes !
All this could have been avoided by a simple no to suspend Parliament by Johnson . So in effect he’s forced this issue and the symbolism of such a rebellion amongst the Tories puts a marker down .
I really do think the Tories have badly misjudged this Leadership , there’s no chance Bozo can unite the party .
Gove for all his faults could have done that , the fact he remained loyal to May and did at least try to hold out an olive branch to the more pro EU wing of the party .
I just can’t see how this ends well.
Brexit cannot now be resolved by compromise. It could have been had T May gone down that route in 2016 but now both sides are too deeply entrenched. As Bozo said, it's do or die. And both his premiership and Brexit are going to die.
The thing is so many forecasts of what might happen have ended up not being realized . If someone had told me in early March we’d still be in the EU in the summer I wouldn’t have believed it .
Nothing would shock me anymore .
It's clear that parliament will not countenance no deal and it's also clear that the EU will not change May's deal in any meaningful way. Bozo has set his face so strongly against that deal that he could not credibly recommend anything resembling it to the HoC. So it will not be no deal, it will not be the only deal on offer, ergo it will be remain, probably disguised as another A50 extension initially.
Missing the obvious point that, short of actually getting rid of Boris, Parliament cannot stop a No Deal. And as we have seen before, when it really comes to the crunch votes, the Anti- No Deal side generally seem to come up short.
Today was proxy no deal vote. Had it been a genuine no deal vote many of the Tories who abstained would have voted against and the majority against no deal would have been close to 100.
Again missing the obvious point that it doesn't matter if it was a proxy No Deal vote. The more important point was whether it was a proxy revoke vote. Because if Boris does not bend that that is the only way you will stop a No Deal Brexit.
And I would suggest that there is a very bog leap from voting against No Deal to voting for Revoke. Particularly when the latter will mean the end of so many political careers.
It’s quite astonishing to see what has happened today .
Dominic Grieves original amendment which was much weaker than this scraped home by one vote .
The Lords then added an amendment , this was strengthened today and it passed by 41 votes !
All this could have been avoided by a simple no to suspend Parliament by Johnson . So in effect he’s forced this issue and the symbolism of such a rebellion amongst the Tories puts a marker down .
I really do think the Tories have badly misjudged this Leadership , there’s no chance Bozo can unite the party .
Gove for all his faults could have done that , the fact he remained loyal to May and did at least try to hold out an olive branch to the more pro EU wing of the party .
I just can’t see how this ends well.
Brexit cannot now be resolved by compromise. It could have been had T May gone down that route in 2016 but now both sides are too deeply entrenched. As Bozo said, it's do or die. And both his premiership and Brexit are going to die.
The thing is so many forecasts of what might happen have ended up not being realized . If someone had told me in early March we’d still be in the EU in the summer I wouldn’t have believed it .
Nothing would shock me anymore .
It's clear that parliament will not countenance no deal and it's also clear that the EU will not change May's deal in any meaningful way. Bozo has set his face so strongly against that deal that he could not credibly recommend anything resembling it to the HoC. So it will not be no deal, it will not be the only deal on offer, ergo it will be remain, probably disguised as another A50 extension initially.
Missing the obvious point that, short of actually getting rid of Boris, Parliament cannot stop a No Deal. And as we have seen before, when it really comes to the crunch votes, the Anti- No Deal side generally seem to come up short.
Surely the “obvious point” is that we haven’t yet reached a “crunch vote”?
Today suggests that the no deal position would be defeated easily as and when that day comes. The political significance is greater than the formal effect of the amendment to the NI Bill. The great Bozo now knows that if he pushes things to a crunch vote, he will lose.
The choice is do you want to be allied to a lunatic racist in the WH or Remain close to the EU.
Trumps election had made the case for Brexit and especially no deal even more difficult . It’s added another thing to the mix .
Remainers like myself could possibly stomach an orderly exit with a sensible deal but now left with the option of no deal and arselicking Trump it’s polarizing things further .
Erm... There is a recess next week for at least a month, so MPs can have a holiday.
Why are MPs already on family holidays?
Holiday prices go up from next week?
We have a winner.
What a whiner that man must be.
AS I stated before he is Scottish with Scottish school holidays... By the time he could go on holiday after Parliament is closed his children will be back at school...
Oh boo hoo, what a tragedy. MPs know what the job is, and collectively have responsibility over this nation and unfortunately that might result in some personal life disruption. Reasonable accomodation will only go so far, and having to rearrange or even miss a holiday is not causing me to break out in tears as this poor poor person who chose to be there knowing what the job was.
Erm... There is a recess next week for at least a month, so MPs can have a holiday.
Why are MPs already on family holidays?
Holiday prices go up from next week?
We have a winner.
What a whiner that man must be.
AS I stated before he is Scottish with Scottish school holidays... By the time he could go on holiday after Parliament is closed his children will be back at school...
You may have stated it before but it's still bollocks. Parliament rises for the summer recess on 25th July, Scottish summer school holidays finish on 16th August.
So that's three clear weeks for poor old Colin Clark to chill in the Tuscan hills.
You know, I peeked into the 'other' PB.com a little while ago. Goodness, what a civilised place that was compared to here.
SeanT is still there, ranting admittedly but still there. TSE is still got a raging..... well, he still likes Cameron. And the discussions are civil. All the talk is about how Osborne is the shoe in against May. He basically got to pick his opponent, and Theresa May, well she might've been okay as Home Secretary but as PM material she'll never beat the Boy Wonder.
Announcement of that Leadership contest is during Conference season and its widely expected Osborne will win, win handily and then go on to beat Corbyn in 2020 for his majority. Sure, Farage and UKIP are still a threat but three years later after the 52% Remain win, the country is moving on.
And Osborne's win next year will mean the end of Corbyn and hopefully the Labour party can get back on its feet again. There's talk Benn or Watson will take over, or even Ed make a return.
Of course, the Lib Dems are still struggling on 10%, but Farron can't have it all.
What a civilised place that place is!
They could do a remake of the Man in the High Castle set in Brexitlandia 2030 where people can travel between that reality and a different world in which Remain won.
There would be a lot of refugees desperately trying to escape from Remainica to Brexitlandia
Partition of the country and mass population movements seem the only sane outcome.
I think the refugees from Leverstan will outnumber those going the other way,
The crossbreaks imply a three-way split in London with Labour narrowly second in Scotland.
Labour are going nowhere in Scotland no matter how much you spin it
Yep - if Labour is second in scotland with more than a few token seats I think the model is wrong
It only gives Labour 15% there with the Tories on 13%. LDs and Brexit Party are both on 10%. Not inclined to believe the London data - Labour, LibDem & Tories all in 26% - 28% range.
Don't take subsamples literally. They are not weighted.
With Salvini's Lega Nord still on 36% and 12.5% ahead of the 2nd placed Democratic Party in the latest Italian poll this week and Bolsonaro having been elected President in Brazil last year, the idea that Trump is somehow unique is not correct. Indeed we voted for Brexit before Trump arrived.
Trump IS unique in one particular and very important sense.
He is the only full throttle racist to hold the position of American president in modern times.
That is quite remarkable. Certainly something I never expected to see.
It’s more that he is utterly ignorant of his nation’s history and is clumsily breaking all the taboos that people would expect any sensible educated President to respect.
You know, I peeked into the 'other' PB.com a little while ago. Goodness, what a civilised place that was compared to here.
SeanT is still there, ranting admittedly but still there. TSE is still got a raging..... well, he still likes Cameron. And the discussions are civil. All the talk is about how Osborne is the shoe in against May. He basically got to pick his opponent, and Theresa May, well she might've been okay as Home Secretary but as PM material she'll never beat the Boy Wonder.
Announcement of that Leadership contest is during Conference season and its widely expected Osborne will win, win handily and then go on to beat Corbyn in 2020 for his majority. Sure, Farage and UKIP are still a threat but three years later after the 52% Remain win, the country is moving on.
And Osborne's win next year will mean the end of Corbyn and hopefully the Labour party can get back on its feet again. There's talk Benn or Watson will take over, or even Ed make a return.
Of course, the Lib Dems are still struggling on 10%, but Farron can't have it all.
What a civilised place that place is!
They could do a remake of the Man in the High Castle set in Brexitlandia 2030 where people can travel between that reality and a different world in which Remain won.
There would be a lot of refugees desperately trying to escape from Remainica to Brexitlandia
Partition of the country and mass population movements seem the only sane outcome.
I think the refugees from Leverstan will outnumber those going the other way,
I am sure you will be happy in your London ghetto.
Interesting to see Tories who were never seen as part of the awkward squad voting against the government .
years.
nutters I guess
In all seriousness if I were a Tory MP (I never will be) even as a determined Leaver and someone who would always choose No Deal over Remain were that the final choice, I would have voted for this
👍
That is my view
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras who think they can take us into some dark age and economic armageddon
In the nicest possible way there are a number of you on here whom I struggle to understand why you/they are not in the LDs Those that I am thinking of really have views that are pretty well indistinguishable from mine (or am I in the wrong party?)
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
N problem. I obviously haven't made my mark here then even though I've been in and out since the very beginning
Agree on coalition.
We do differ on Brexit however. I think it has to be killed stone dead.
And I respect your view and the Lib Dems are reaping the benefits of being honest, as are the SNP
Cheers. Good luck with your battle within the Conservative party, but if not successful you will always be welcome this side of the fence.
The crossbreaks imply a three-way split in London with Labour narrowly second in Scotland.
Labour are going nowhere in Scotland no matter how much you spin it
Yep - if Labour is second in scotland with more than a few token seats I think the model is wrong
It only gives Labour 15% there with the Tories on 13%. LDs and Brexit Party are both on 10%. Not inclined to believe the London data - Labour, LibDem & Tories all in 26% - 28% range.
Don't take subsamples literally. They are not weighted.
Erm... There is a recess next week for at least a month, so MPs can have a holiday.
Why are MPs already on family holidays?
Holiday prices go up from next week?
We have a winner.
What a whiner that man must be.
AS I stated before he is Scottish with Scottish school holidays... By the time he could go on holiday after Parliament is closed his children will be back at school...
You may have stated it before but it's still bollocks. Parliament rises for the summer recess on 25th July, Scottish summer school holidays finish on 16th August.
So that's three clear weeks for poor old Colin Clark to chill in the Tuscan hills.
but as an MP he only earns £77k a year (all expenses covered and he flys so doesn't need to worry about the second class rail fare restriction) - can he afford a holiday when all schools are closed...
The problem with “Brexit” is still that it is based on lies.
There are Brexits that are not. Tyndall Brexits, Richard North Brexits, rcs100 Brexits do not appear to be based on a false prospectus although I may disagree, sometimes violently, with various premises.
But “Brexit” as it is promoted by its key spokespeople from all parties and none is utter bullshit, first about the expected benefits, then about the expected response from the EU, and still today about the supposed ease of execution.
The willingness to lie opens up a moral hole from which all sorts of degradations fall out (proroguing, recourse to false and offensive WWII analogies, etc).
Brexit will not stand unless it can accommodate itself to truth telling.
With Salvini's Lega Nord still on 36% and 12.5% ahead of the 2nd placed Democratic Party in the latest Italian poll this week and Bolsonaro having been elected President in Brazil last year, the idea that Trump is somehow unique is not correct. Indeed we voted for Brexit before Trump arrived.
Trump IS unique in one particular and very important sense.
He is the only full throttle racist to hold the position of American president in modern times.
That is quite remarkable. Certainly something I never expected to see.
I think the last overt Racist to win a state for POTUS was George Wallace in 1968.
5 states and a single (? unfaithful) elector in North Carolina, but his spirit lives on.
America is an increasingly bad place racially. When I lived in Georgia in the 1970s it all seemed ancient history.
Interesting to see Tories who were never seen as part of the awkward squad voting against the government .
years.
nutters I guess
In all seriousness if I were a Tory MP (I never will be) even as a determined Leaver and someone who would always choose No Deal over Remain were that the final choice, I would have voted for this
👍
That is my view
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras who think they can take us into some dark age and economic armageddon
In the nicest possible way there are a number of you on here whom I struggle to understand why you/they are not in the LDs Those that I am thinking of really have views that are pretty well indistinguishable from mine (or am I in the wrong party?)
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
N problem. I obviously haven't made my mark here then even though I've been in and out since the very beginning
Agree on coalition.
We do differ on Brexit however. I think it has to be killed stone dead.
And I respect your view and the Lib Dems are reaping the benefits of being honest, as are the SNP
Cheers. Good luck with your battle within the Conservative party, but if not successful you will always be welcome this side of the fence.
Thank you
From your previous posts you were intending to resign your membership early next week.
The problem with “Brexit” is still that it is based on lies.
There are Brexits that are not. Tyndall Brexits, Richard North Brexits, rcs100 Brexits do not appear to be based on a false prospectus although I may disagree, sometimes violently, with various premises.
But “Brexit” as it is promoted by its key spokespeople from all parties and none is utter bullshit, first about the expected benefits, then about the expected response from the EU, and still today about the supposed ease of execution.
The willingness to lie opens up a moral hole from which all sorts of degradations fall out (proroguing, recourse to false and offensive WWII analogies, etc).
Brexit will not stand unless it can accommodate itself to truth telling.
You missed the fact that even yesterday Boris's reason for us leaving was based on a story that didn't stand scrutiny...
You know, I peeked into the 'other' PB.com a little while ago. Goodness, what a civilised place that was compared to here.
SeanT is still there, ranting admittedly but still there. TSE is still got a raging..... well, he still likes Cameron. And the discussions are civil. All the talk is about how Osborne is the shoe in against May. He basically got to pick his opponent, and Theresa May, well she might've been okay as Home Secretary but as PM material she'll never beat the Boy Wonder.
Announcement of that Leadership contest is during Conference season and its widely expected Osborne will win, win handily and then go on to beat Corbyn in 2020 for his majority. Sure, Farage and UKIP are still a threat but three years later after the 52% Remain win, the country is moving on.
And Osborne's win next year will mean the end of Corbyn and hopefully the Labour party can get back on its feet again. There's talk Benn or Watson will take over, or even Ed make a return.
Of course, the Lib Dems are still struggling on 10%, but Farron can't have it all.
What a civilised place that place is!
They could do a remake of the Man in the High Castle set in Brexitlandia 2030 where people can travel between that reality and a different world in which Remain won.
There would be a lot of refugees desperately trying to escape from Remainica to Brexitlandia
Partition of the country and mass population movements seem the only sane outcome.
I think the refugees from Leverstan will outnumber those going the other way,
I am sure you will be happy in your London ghetto.
Leicester is part of Remania, and I think several of the other Leics counting areas will have flipped to Remain.
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
In reality, almost no one believes it acceptable to simply “Revoke” which is why talk of “extreme Remainers” is rather tedious.
I've just read a couple of interesting articles in the Daily Torygraph. The first by Nigel Farage argues that von der Leyen's eurofanaticism could be an asset for Boris Johnson.
The other, by Peter Foster, takes stock of how we got here and argues that May's Brexit policy was incoherent: "In short, she promised the UK could ‘have its cake and eat it’, and when the EU (repeatedly) said that was not possible, Mrs May responded simply by bouncing incoherently between being co-operative and confrontational."
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
I don't think a second referendum ends anything, except the Conservative Party. If the vote is narrowly to remain, BXP will replace them as the main right-of-centre party and they could gain a majority on 35% of the vote and take us out that way.
I increasingly think that the most likely outcome is messy, no-deal exit followed by cap-in-hand rejoin.
Interesting to see Tories who were never seen as part of the awkward squad voting against the government .
years.
nutters I guess
In all seriousness if I were a Tory M
👍
That is my view
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras who think they can take us into some dark age and economic armageddon
In the nicest possible way there are a number of you on here whom I struggle to understand why you/they are not in the LDs Those that I am thinking of really have views that are pretty well indistinguishable from mine (or am I in the wrong party?)
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
N problem. I obviously haven't made my mark here then even though I've been in and out since the very beginning
Agree on coalition.
We do differ on Brexit however. I think it has to be killed stone dead.
And I respect your view and the Lib Dems are reaping the benefits of being honest, as are the SNP
Cheers. Good luck with your battle within the Conservative party, but if not successful you will always be welcome this side of the fence.
Thank you
From your previous posts you were intending to resign your membership early next week.
No deal will not happen next week. If Boris does no deal then it is over for me
With Salvini's Lega Nord still on 36% and 12.5% ahead of the 2nd placed Democratic Party in the latest Italian poll this week and Bolsonaro having been elected President in Brazil last year, the idea that Trump is somehow unique is not correct. Indeed we voted for Brexit before Trump arrived.
Trump IS unique in one particular and very important sense.
He is the only full throttle racist to hold the position of American president in modern times.
That is quite remarkable. Certainly something I never expected to see.
I think the last overt Racist to win a state for POTUS was George Wallace in 1968.
5 states and a single (? unfaithful) elector in North Carolina, but his spirit lives on.
America is an increasingly bad place racially. When I lived in Georgia in the 1970s it all seemed ancient history.
Wallace was an interesting fellow.
He wasn't considered a racist but lost an election to an opponent who as prosecutor had obtained the death penalty for an African American chap who stole a purse from a white woman.
Wallace vowed he'd never get out n*ggered again and pivoted to the far right.
After he was shot in the 70s he recanted his views and hired many many African Americans to roles in the state.
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
I don't think a second referendum ends anything, except the Conservative Party. If the vote is narrowly to remain, BXP will replace them as the main right-of-centre party and they could gain a majority on 35% of the vote and take us out that way.
I increasingly think that the most likely outcome is messy, no-deal exit followed by cap-in-hand rejoin.
Given the rising extremism of both left and right in this country, surely the rest of us should be embracing the urgent need for electoral reform - to prevent any extremist gathering majority power on a minority 35% of the vote - before it is too late?
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
I don't think a second referendum ends anything, except the Conservative Party. If the vote is narrowly to remain, BXP will replace them as the main right-of-centre party and they could gain a majority on 35% of the vote and take us out that way.
I increasingly think that the most likely outcome is messy, no-deal exit followed by cap-in-hand rejoin.
Given the rising extremism of both left and right in this country, surely the rest of us should be embracing the urgent need for electoral reform - to prevent any extremist gathering majority power on a minority 35% of the vote - before it is too late?
Despite HYFUD and Viceroy comments telling us to clear off to the Lib Dems we will remain and fight the ultras
In the nicest possible way there are a number of you on here whom I struggle to understand why you/they are not in the LDs Those that I am thinking of really have views that are pretty well indistinguishable from mine (or am I in the wrong party?)
Probably TBP if you agree with Viceroy but the conservative party has to be a broad church
Oh BGNW I obviously worded that badly. I'm a LD. A shudder went down my back when I read that.
What I meant was we have an awful lot in in common as I do with a number of other moderate sensible Tories on here and I really don't feel like I am in the wrong party.
To quote HYFD however I am a 'lefty', something I don't think I have ever been called before.
Looks like I misunderstood you and did not know you are a LD.
I am more to the centre left of the conservative party and I do believe the coalition was an excellent government
However, I do support Brexit even though I voted remain and believe we should have accepted TM deal. I reject no deal under all circumstances and am pleased that my party's responsible mps voted today to stop the proroguing of the HOC
N problem. I obviously haven't made my mark here then even though I've been in and out since the very beginning
Agree on coalition.
We do differ on Brexit however. I think it has to be killed stone dead.
And I respect your view and the Lib Dems are reaping the benefits of being honest, as are the SNP
Cheers. Good luck with your battle within the Conservative party, but if not successful you will always be welcome this side of the fence.
Thank you
From your previous posts you were intending to resign your membership early next week.
No deal will not happen next week. If Boris does no deal then it is over for me
Our country needs people with integrity like you to make their stand, before it is too late.
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
I don't think a second referendum ends anything, except the Conservative Party. If the vote is narrowly to remain, BXP will replace them as the main right-of-centre party and they could gain a majority on 35% of the vote and take us out that way.
I increasingly think that the most likely outcome is messy, no-deal exit followed by cap-in-hand rejoin.
Given the rising extremism of both left and right in this country, surely the rest of us should be embracing the urgent need for electoral reform - to prevent any extremist gathering majority power on a minority 35% of the vote - before it is too late?
And how would we do that? It seems the LDs and greens cant even agree to stand aside in a few seats each? Moderate Tory and Labour MPs think they can solve the problems from within their taken over parties, when it is obvious that wont happen, at least in a 5 year time scale. Not to mention the UK not really liking the idea of PR.
I hope you’re right . Trump is a cancer not just on the USA but the world . Soon his baying mob will be shouting string her up . These are very dark times for the USA , and by extension the rest of us . Trump is enabling a new very ugly type of politics.
Agree with every word except "new".
We have seen this before all too often.
What's new is seeing it in the White House. Truly shocking. And scary.
It really is. The recent series on the BBC , Years and Years, I watched , seemed like reality about to happen.
There is no good outcome from here. The country is going to be consumed by Brexit for many years to come, with no stable settlement in sight.
This is why I'm leaning to No Deal.
I think they country will stomach it for six months max, and then we'll rejoin, and the Leavers will have no credibility to oppose it.
Every time they'll say no, rejoining will be a disaster, the country will remind them they said No Deal was Project Fear and/or No Deal will be fine.
Why would the EU let us rejoin, there are other far less troublesome places (such as say Serbia) in the queue ahead of us...
They'll put penalty clauses in, like we cannot leave for 150 years, if we do leave early, we have to pay 1 trillion pounds in compensation to the EU for every year of early termination.
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
I don't think a second referendum ends anything, except the Conservative Party. If the vote is narrowly to remain, BXP will replace them as the main right-of-centre party and they could gain a majority on 35% of the vote and take us out that way.
I increasingly think that the most likely outcome is messy, no-deal exit followed by cap-in-hand rejoin.
The only way out is a general election after revoke and if and when a party wins a majority on a leave platform so be it, they will have to own and deliver it and face the consequences. Where we are in a parliamentary democracy is ridiculous if you want to leave vote for a party that unambiguously wants to leave with a clear objective and a plan. Otherwise shut the fuck up because you can’t carve a way out of this based on the past history of a referendum etc. stand for a election with a plan to leave and put it to the people, if you win get on with it.
Not exactly a masterstroke designed to build trust in our presumptive Prime Minister. The unravelling is getting at least as much publicity as the stunt itself.
Crime Commissioner, Northumberland - surely a Labour hold Ceredigion Aberystwyth PC defence - looks a safe PC hold Daventry Tory defence - looks safe, would be an upset if the Tories lose Westbury - LibDem defence - looks safe Richmond on Thames - LibDem defence - looks safe Ashford, Kent - Tory defence - looks a chance for a LibDem or Green upset
Not exactly a masterstroke designed to build trust in our presumptive Prime Minister. The unravelling is getting at least as much publicity as the stunt itself.
Bozo needs to learn that the stunts that get you attention as a hungry journalist or Tory backbencher don’t really work when you are in line to become our Prime Minister.
Again missing the obvious point that it doesn't matter if it was a proxy No Deal vote. The more important point was whether it was a proxy revoke vote. Because if Boris does not bend that that is the only way you will stop a No Deal Brexit.
And I would suggest that there is a very bog leap from voting against No Deal to voting for Revoke. Particularly when the latter will mean the end of so many political careers.
I'm not expecting parliament to vote to revoke. I think Boris will go full on no deal as he and his acolytes think the EU will blink. So we will get to early October and the realisation will gradually dawn that the EU is not going to blink and, what's more, there is a majority in the Commons prepared to VONC Boris unless he seeks a further extension of A50. So either he becomes the shortest serving PM ever or swallows his pride and seeks an extension. I guess he will buckle and thus his credibility will be shot and he will become ever more impotent than May has been in the past few months.
There is no good outcome from here. The country is going to be consumed by Brexit for many years to come, with no stable settlement in sight.
This is why I'm leaning to No Deal.
I think they country will stomach it for six months max, and then we'll rejoin, and the Leavers will have no credibility to oppose it.
Every time they'll say no, rejoining will be a disaster, the country will remind them they said No Deal was Project Fear and/or No Deal will be fine.
Why would the EU let us rejoin, there are other far less troublesome places (such as say Serbia) in the queue ahead of us...
Why wouldn't they? No more opt-outs, including from Schengen and the Euro. And if we question anything in the future after re-joining, they can just say "what are you going to do about it? Leave?"
Crime Commissioner, Northumberland - surely a Labour hold Ceredigion Aberystwyth PC defence - looks a safe PC hold Daventry Tory defence - looks safe, would be an upset if the Tories lose Westbury - LibDem defence - looks safe Richmond on Thames - LibDem defence - looks safe Ashford, Kent - Tory defence - looks a chance for a LibDem or Green upset
I'd tend to agree on Westbury. An independent minded town but it has been safeish LD seat since creation, the candidate is well known locally and there are 2 independents which unless one takes heavily from the LDs would suggest they might be fishing for the same votes.
Not exactly a masterstroke designed to build trust in our presumptive Prime Minister. The unravelling is getting at least as much publicity as the stunt itself.
I reckon he'll regularly have to come back to Parliament for saying something deeply misleading/inaccurate at the despatch box
LD 1920 [55.3%; +18.9%] Con 838 [24.1%; -11.9%] Lab 560 [16.1%; -3.3%] PC 152 [4.4% +4.4%] Grn 0 [[0.0%; -8.1%]]
I assume the Green candidate didn’t live in the ward...
Zero votes for a candidate from a national party! How often does that happen?
Hardly ever - especially in a BIG ward pulling in 3,500 votes in a by-election.
It gives the lie to those PB’ers who suggest that Green supporters aren’t willing to vote LibDem. Brexit is the overriding issue and in a key defence not one Green supporter stuck with their previous choice.
Not exactly a masterstroke designed to build trust in our presumptive Prime Minister. The unravelling is getting at least as much publicity as the stunt itself.
I reckon he'll regularly have to come back to Parliament for saying something deeply misleading/inaccurate at the despatch box
Given he would dearly love to be like Trump I would bet he will hate that as a member of parliament he has to go to it himself quite often, Trump at least can avoid going to Congress most of the time.
There is no good outcome from here. The country is going to be consumed by Brexit for many years to come, with no stable settlement in sight.
This is why I'm leaning to No Deal.
I think they country will stomach it for six months max, and then we'll rejoin, and the Leavers will have no credibility to oppose it.
Every time they'll say no, rejoining will be a disaster, the country will remind them they said No Deal was Project Fear and/or No Deal will be fine.
I have some sympathy for that view but I have three professional children trying to make their way in a difficult world and given the sectors they work in a no deal exit could scupper them for years to come, ok you can tell me where the sunlit uplands are but that view is disappearing of the agenda as principle overtakes sanity. I’m protected apart from a limited exposure living in Spain but I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a sane argument to leave which is based around economics, or one that gives those who voted for it what they sought to achieve.
There is no good outcome from here. The country is going to be consumed by Brexit for many years to come, with no stable settlement in sight.
This is why I'm leaning to No Deal.
I think they country will stomach it for six months max, and then we'll rejoin, and the Leavers will have no credibility to oppose it.
Every time they'll say no, rejoining will be a disaster, the country will remind them they said No Deal was Project Fear and/or No Deal will be fine.
I have some sympathy for that view but I have three professional children trying to make their way in a difficult world and given the sectors they work in a no deal exit could scupper them for years to come, ok you can tell me where the sunlit uplands are but that view is disappearing of the agenda as principle overtakes sanity. I’m protected apart from a limited exposure living in Spain but I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a sane argument to leave which is based around economics, or one that gives those who voted for it what they sought to achieve.
It’s a sign of the extent of the surrender of Tory politicians to the opinions of their pensioner base, all long departed from participation in the labour market, that so many of their MPs are so blasé as to the potential impact of no deal on very many people still of working age.
There is no good outcome from here. The country is going to be consumed by Brexit for many years to come, with no stable settlement in sight.
This is why I'm leaning to No Deal.
I think they country will stomach it for six months max, and then we'll rejoin, and the Leavers will have no credibility to oppose it.
Every time they'll say no, rejoining will be a disaster, the country will remind them they said No Deal was Project Fear and/or No Deal will be fine.
I have some sympathy for that view but I have three professional children trying to make their way in a difficult world and given the sectors they work in a no deal exit could scupper them for years to come, ok you can tell me where the sunlit uplands are but that view is disappearing of the agenda as principle overtakes sanity. I’m protected apart from a limited exposure living in Spain but I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a sane argument to leave which is based around economics, or one that gives those who voted for it what they sought to achieve.
There's no good option from this point, all that there is left is minimising the disruption for a shorter time as possible.
LD 1920 [55.3%; +18.9%] Con 838 [24.1%; -11.9%] Lab 560 [16.1%; -3.3%] PC 152 [4.4% +4.4%] Grn 0 [[0.0%; -8.1%]]
I assume the Green candidate didn’t live in the ward...
Zero votes for a candidate from a national party! How often does that happen?
Hardly ever - especially in a BIG ward pulling in 3,500 votes in a by-election.
It gives the lie to those PB’ers who suggest that Green supporters aren’t willing to vote LibDem. Brexit is the overriding issue and in a key defence not one Green supporter stuck with their previous choice.
You know, I peeked into the 'other' PB.com a little while ago. Goodness, what a civilised place that was compared to here.
SeanT is still there, ranting admittedly but still there. TSE is still got a raging..... well, he still likes Cameron. And the discussions are civil. All the talk is about how Osborne is the shoe in against May. He basically got to pick his opponent, and Theresa May, well she might've been okay as Home Secretary but as PM material she'll never beat the Boy Wonder.
Announcement of that Leadership contest is during Conference season and its widely expected Osborne will win, win handily and then go on to beat Corbyn in 2020 for his majority. Sure, Farage and UKIP are still a threat but three years later after the 52% Remain win, the country is moving on.
And Osborne's win next year will mean the end of Corbyn and hopefully the Labour party can get back on its feet again. There's talk Benn or Watson will take over, or even Ed make a return.
Of course, the Lib Dems are still struggling on 10%, but Farron can't have it all.
What a civilised place that place is!
They could do a remake of the Man in the High Castle set in Brexitlandia 2030 where people can travel between that reality and a different world in which Remain won.
There would be a lot of refugees desperately trying to escape from Remainica to Brexitlandia
Personally I'd be using this alternate universe switcher to seek out rather more interesting places that Remainica and Brexlandia!
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
In reality, almost no one believes it acceptable to simply “Revoke” which is why talk of “extreme Remainers” is rather tedious.
Comments
https://www.notizieoggi24.it/2019/07/18/sondaggi-elettorali-piepoli-la-lega-aumenta-nonostante-il-caso-russia/
Now we seem to be faced with the choice between No Deal and Remain. Fine - let's put it to the country.
LAB 297
CON 160
LD 67
BXP 66
SNP 38
GRN 1
DUP 10
SF 8
PC 3
Jezza + SNP Maj. Right wingers 226 Remain whingers 67
If we could start from 2014 remain would be the best option, from where we are I agree with BigG that something along the lines of WA is least bad.
If Boris calls an election and narrowly loses, no idea what Corbyn, his party, SNP and LDs could all agree on. We could get a mirror image govt mess for another couple of years.
Despite that, Johnson lost badly. He won't win any election if he gets the reputation of not being in control.
Of course, judge people by their actions and an awful lot of people claim to be for Brexit but spend most of their time voting against it then blaming others for us not having left.
We have seen this before all too often.
What's new is seeing it in the White House. Truly shocking. And scary.
Equally I'm happy to trade my Lib Dem vote up here for a Labour vote in the South West.
The better alternative reality is the one where Cameron realised how historic and valuable an opportunity the coalition presented him with, and he acted to accommodate rather than destroy his coalition partners.
They are still in power, and there was no referendum.
What a whiner that man must be.
Scarily thinking about it for 2 seconds that works on a political level as well as an economic one..
No Deal wins? So be it - at least the country has voted for any economic chaos that ensues.
Deal wins? Ok, let's sign up to the deal and leave (albeit, we will still have the transition period during which Brexit will remain all-consuming).
Remain wins? Revoke and we Remain on the existing terms. Brexiteers will need to engineer and win a further referendum to re-open leaving. Frankly if Remain wins I think the whole project will be dead and we can forget about Brexit for good.
It's like those stupid moments when there's some tight vote in the Commons and the government wins and it is framed as the government trying to restrict parliament or something, when parliament made its will known by backing the government.
He is the only full throttle racist to hold the position of American president in modern times.
That is quite remarkable. Certainly something I never expected to see.
And I would suggest that there is a very bog leap from voting against No Deal to voting for Revoke. Particularly when the latter will mean the end of so many political careers.
Today suggests that the no deal position would be defeated easily as and when that day comes. The political significance is greater than the formal effect of the amendment to the NI Bill. The great Bozo now knows that if he pushes things to a crunch vote, he will lose.
Trumps election had made the case for Brexit and especially no deal even more difficult . It’s added another thing to the mix .
Remainers like myself could possibly stomach an orderly exit with a sensible deal but now left with the option of no deal and arselicking Trump it’s polarizing things further .
Perfectly captures the rancid and philistinic tone of Brexit Island.
The “May-Pollard bilateral” line had me in stitches.
By the way, why is Arron Banks at a Tory fundraiser?
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2019/jul/18/hi-de-hi-repeats-as-the-bad-boys-of-brexit-meet-su-pollard
So that's three clear weeks for poor old Colin Clark to chill in the Tuscan hills.
I think the refugees from Leverstan will outnumber those going the other way,
There are Brexits that are not.
Tyndall Brexits, Richard North Brexits, rcs100 Brexits do not appear to be based on a false prospectus although I may disagree, sometimes violently, with various premises.
But “Brexit” as it is promoted by its key spokespeople from all parties and none is utter bullshit, first about the expected benefits, then about the expected response from the EU, and still today about the supposed ease of execution.
The willingness to lie opens up a moral hole from which all sorts of degradations fall out (proroguing, recourse to false and offensive WWII analogies, etc).
Brexit will not stand unless it can accommodate itself to truth telling.
5 states and a single (? unfaithful) elector in North Carolina, but his spirit lives on.
America is an increasingly bad place racially. When I lived in Georgia in the 1970s it all seemed ancient history.
As a Remainer this is a horrible option and if I was an MP it would fill me with dread .
I admit I’d love to see Brexit put out of its misery but I strongly believe that can only happen with another EU referendum .
I think it’s wrong to think MPs would easily revoke over no deal , because if people like me who couldn’t be more pro EU have serious reservations over this then what must MPs be dealing with .
I’m confident there’s the numbers to stop no deal by legislation but on revoke I’m really not sure .
I suppose a lot depends on external events , what the pounds doing , business etc
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/ursula-von-der-leyen-fanatical-european-federalist-could-make/
The other, by Peter Foster, takes stock of how we got here and argues that May's Brexit policy was incoherent: "In short, she promised the UK could ‘have its cake and eat it’, and when the EU (repeatedly) said that was not possible, Mrs May responded simply by bouncing incoherently between being co-operative and confrontational."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/07/18/may-did-not-flunk-brexit-failed-back-no-deal-political-cowardice/
I increasingly think that the most likely outcome is messy, no-deal exit followed by cap-in-hand rejoin.
The legislation is amended so that revoke comes with another EU vote which states no deal or Remain.
If it’s no deal then the UK then just gives notice it’s leaving without the Article 50 process.
He wasn't considered a racist but lost an election to an opponent who as prosecutor had obtained the death penalty for an African American chap who stole a purse from a white woman.
Wallace vowed he'd never get out n*ggered again and pivoted to the far right.
After he was shot in the 70s he recanted his views and hired many many African Americans to roles in the state.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1151916503136112641
I think they country will stomach it for six months max, and then we'll rejoin, and the Leavers will have no credibility to oppose it.
Every time they'll say no, rejoining will be a disaster, the country will remind them they said No Deal was Project Fear and/or No Deal will be fine.
LD 1920 [55.3%; +18.9%]
Con 838 [24.1%; -11.9%]
Lab 560 [16.1%; -3.3%]
PC 152 [4.4% +4.4%]
Grn 0 [[0.0%; -8.1%]]
I assume the Green candidate didn’t live in the ward...
The recent series on the BBC , Years and Years, I watched , seemed like reality about to happen.
Crime Commissioner, Northumberland - surely a Labour hold
Ceredigion Aberystwyth PC defence - looks a safe PC hold
Daventry Tory defence - looks safe, would be an upset if the Tories lose
Westbury - LibDem defence - looks safe
Richmond on Thames - LibDem defence - looks safe
Ashford, Kent - Tory defence - looks a chance for a LibDem or Green upset
Did this happen before 2016? Surely.
What’s different is that nativism has been legitimated.
Although, speaking from experience, it isn’t that difficult to get them by knocking on doors at random.
It gives the lie to those PB’ers who suggest that Green supporters aren’t willing to vote LibDem. Brexit is the overriding issue and in a key defence not one Green supporter stuck with their previous choice.