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  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    rcs1000 said:

    nichomar said:

    There is no good outcome from here. The country is going to be consumed by Brexit for many years to come, with no stable settlement in sight.

    This is why I'm leaning to No Deal.

    I think they country will stomach it for six months max, and then we'll rejoin, and the Leavers will have no credibility to oppose it.

    Every time they'll say no, rejoining will be a disaster, the country will remind them they said No Deal was Project Fear and/or No Deal will be fine.
    I have some sympathy for that view but I have three professional children trying to make their way in a difficult world and given the sectors they work in a no deal exit could scupper them for years to come, ok you can tell me where the sunlit uplands are but that view is disappearing of the agenda as principle overtakes sanity. I’m protected apart from a limited exposure living in Spain but I’m still waiting for someone to come up with a sane argument to leave which is based around economics, or one that gives those who voted for it what they sought to achieve.
    Go and read the OBR report from this morning and look at the GDP growth figures for the economy after we have got over the 12 month economic adjustment period.
    "Adjustment period" = lots and lots of £ that will be lost solely because of Brexit.
    If you could be bothered to read the report you would understand that in every year in cash terms UK Govt receipts increase.
    Did UK governent receipts rise during the Global Financial Crisis? I would be very surprised if they did.

    (Nevertheless, the general point is a correct one. Thanks to inflation, receipts nearly always rise.)
    No they did not 563 Bill 2008, 541 bill 2010, but in 2011 they were higher than 2008 at 580 bill.

    Just out of interest the same happened in Germany as well, which was Govt revenues fell in percentage terms than less than the % fall in GDP. At the time I was trying to understand why Ireland was in such trouble, their Govt revenue fell 26%.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    kle4 said:

    RH1992 said:

    Scott_P said:
    It seems to me that the anti no deal Tories will do anything EXCEPT vote to revoke/VoNC Boris. That's an absolutely ludicrous plan.
    Surely they would VoNC? I don't see how they cannot, whatever their claims, given what they are willing to do.
    Shifty and effective beats principled and feckless every time.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,391
    Scott_P said:
    In all fairness to Johnson that question is so loaded it elicits the answer the questioner wants.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Which in U.K. minds is a pretty low bar that the majority won’t respect. The only rich people are those whose income is greater than mine.
  • ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128
    edited July 2019
    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    nichomar said:

    Panorama bollocks or fact?

    What have they said?

    Or is this still about last week?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    Ignore
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:



    I knew we kwatcha out! Euro on top form!

    It's yuan for the record books.
    I have a yen for puns of a different coinage.
    We will ge trouble if we keep this up.

    Apart from anything else, there are not enough currencies, so we will just go rand and rand in circles.
    I have faith in your ability to mint fresh script.

    Your faith is duly noted.
    You mustn’t get too inflated an opinion of yourself.

  • ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128
    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You mean the European Parliament could trigger Article 7?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    edited July 2019
    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    I thought the Brexiteer revolution was going to propel Nige into No 10 if we don't crash-out by 31 Oct?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2019
    This Brexit prog is almost unwatchable. If we don't have the worlds worst politicians who does? And with such a high opinion of themselves. David Davis is a prat.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You sure you don’t work for Putin’s Internet Research Agency ?

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    You are demonstrating why strong government, on balance, is a bad idea.

    The powers taken by someone competent (like Louis XIV or perhaps Putin) then fall to someone less able.

    Better government is severely limited in what they can do.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720

    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    I thought the Brexiteer revolution was going to propel Nige into No 10 if we don't crash-out by 31 Oct?
    They’ve realised that Nigel Farage doesn’t hold much fear for Remainers if the Tories have already morphed into the Brexit Party, so they’re trying to threaten us with communism.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Roger said:

    This Brexit prog is almost unwatchable. If we don't have the worlds worst politicians who does? And with such a high opinion of themselves.

    I couldn't face it tbh. After 3 years of Brexit fiasco the topic has lost its appeal.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nichomar said:

    I think we are being invaded by philip Thompson and viceroy clones but I may be wrong.

    I don't think I've been cloned. Been posting on this website for 12 years now and quite frankly I share almost nothing in common with viceroy.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    We tried that in the nineties over the ban on British beef. When we really could veto almost anything.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    I thought the Brexiteer revolution was going to propel Nige into No 10 if we don't crash-out by 31 Oct?
    They’ve realised that Nigel Farage doesn’t hold much fear for Remainers if the Tories have already morphed into the Brexit Party, so they’re trying to threaten us with communism.
    They'll be pleased to see we are still in the EU, which will protect us nicely from communism.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You sure you don’t work for Putin’s Internet Research Agency ?

    But who is watching 5% of the population who are already not going to change their mind.
  • ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128
    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You sure you don’t work for Putin’s Internet Research Agency ?

    Are you sure you don't work for Mad Merkel's Internet Research Agency?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    rcs1000 said:

    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    You are demonstrating why strong government, on balance, is a bad idea.

    The powers taken by someone competent (like Louis XIV or perhaps Putin) then fall to someone less able.

    Better government is severely limited in what they can do.

    Indeed. As it currently is; as it would be in a Corbyn ministry.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure whether they would include it, but UK State pension must put people in the top 10% on its own, add in state funded healthcare and we forget how lucky we are.

    If the politicians and media spent more time explaining that things need improving but are pretty good, people would be significantly happier.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:



    I knew we kwatcha out! Euro on top form!

    It's yuan for the record books.
    I have a yen for puns of a different coinage.
    We will ge trouble if we keep this up.

    Apart from anything else, there are not enough currencies, so we will just go rand and rand in circles.
    I have faith in your ability to mint fresh script.

    Your faith is duly noted.
    You mustn’t get too inflated an opinion of yourself.

    You puzzled me there for a moment. I thought at first you had devalued the conversation.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Viceroy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You sure you don’t work for Putin’s Internet Research Agency ?

    Are you sure you don't work for Mad Merkel's Internet Research Agency?
    Quite hard to work for a figment of your imagination. On the other hand...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Very very sadly you do not get to determine which remainers are and which remainers are not welcome in the Conservative Party. None are. You are a remainer and therefore you are not welcome. It really is that simple. Remainers simply have the wrong mindset to fit in to current Conservative Party policy.

    But not to worry, plenty more parties out there all of which would I'm sure appreciate such a tireless and dedicated foot soldier as you evidently are. Sadly it won't be for the Conservatives.

    The way HYUFD instinctively backed Theresa May's European Treaty just shows he is still a diehard Remainer under the skin. True Brexit supporters who respect the will of the people know that you need to be on the lookout for establishment betrayal instead of meekly supporting it.
    I'm afraid that is so. @Philip_Thompson will soon set the likes of @HYUFD right about the merits of the Withdrawal Agreement and what he thinks of those who support it.
    What I think of those who support it is that they have a different opinion to me.

    Is that what you were going for? I've never in my life insisted others must share my opinion or viewed any party as only suiting my view and not others. My view is my view. I couldn't care less if others have other views and I've never called anyone names like traitor for disagreeing - though I've been called lots of names by you and others like you just because I am a heretic for disagreeing with you.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Sad to see Remainers debasing HM of all people. :(
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure whether they would include it, but UK State pension must put people in the top 10% on its own, add in state funded healthcare and we forget how lucky we are.

    If the politicians and media spent more time explaining that things need improving but are pretty good, people would be significantly happier.
    Can't see why the state pension wouldn't count as income for those that receive it.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    rcs1000 said:

    Drutt said:

    (1) joining the common market would be great for business (result 3% reduction in GDP and the 3 day week)

    So, the hangover from the Barber Boom was the result of joining the EEC?

    The problem with all these (and this is true of Leavers and Remainers alike), is that everything is always a counterfactual.

    I think the UK is very likely to fall into recession in late 2019 or 2020. This is nothing to do with leaving the EU, but is a combination of:

    - our savings rate being at a fifty year low
    - the world economy slowing dramatically

    As it happens, I suspect that a disorderly Brexit - and especially the departure from the double taxation and withholding tax treaties - would make that process more painful.

    But stay or leave, the signs - whether PMIs, the bond market or household savings rates - are all pointing to us being at a cyclical peak right now.
    "the UK is very likely to fall into recession in late 2019 or 2020. This is nothing to do with leaving the EU, but is a combination of:
    - our savings rate being at a fifty year low
    - the world economy slowing dramatically"


    It's the change in savings (or consumption) that matters. The level of savings (or consumption) is immaterial for changes in GDP such as recessions. Now, if you are advocating an increase in savings, however it is to be brought about, that would be deflationary - i.e. likely to bring about, or to intensify, a recession.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
  • ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128
    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You sure you don’t work for Putin’s Internet Research Agency ?

    Are you sure you don't work for Mad Merkel's Internet Research Agency?
    Quite hard to work for a figment of your imagination. On the other hand...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
    More Remain conspiracy theories.

    You caught up with the latest episode of Infowars?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Roger said:

    This Brexit prog is almost unwatchable. If we don't have the worlds worst politicians who does? And with such a high opinion of themselves.

    I couldn't face it tbh. After 3 years of Brexit fiasco the topic has lost its appeal.
    That’s what ‘they’ want you don’t give a shit anymore just get it over I’ll accept anything but for god sake I’ve had enough. I can’t find the right analogy and I’m not even sure who ‘they’ are but I’m more interested in love island so go away and get on with something
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited July 2019
    The EU completely outclasses us. It is Barcelona v Accrington Stanley under 15s. At least we can be sure Johnson will be fucked if anyone doubted it
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
    You should get out more.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    RobD said:

    Sad to see Remainers debasing HM of all people. :(


    I can feel your sadness oozing out of that post.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure those numbers make sense. Am I missing something?

    Global pop = 7.7 billion, 1% 77 million.

    EU & US labourforce = 400 million.

    Even ignoring China, Japan, Brazil, India, Australia, Canada etc, there is no way only 77/400 across EU & US earn $32.4k
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,847

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure whether they would include it, but UK State pension must put people in the top 10% on its own, add in state funded healthcare and we forget how lucky we are.

    If the politicians and media spent more time explaining that things need improving but are pretty good, people would be significantly happier.
    Can't see why the state pension wouldn't count as income for those that receive it.
    I was thinking in terms of an asset, whether receiving it yet or not.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    Basically, we're privileged people complaining that our pride has been wounded. None of us are actually going to suffer if Brexit takes place/doesn't take place.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    I assume
    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.


    Do you live in the UK?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:



    I knew we kwatcha out! Euro on top form!

    It's yuan for the record books.
    I have a yen for puns of a different coinage.
    We will ge trouble if we keep this up.

    Apart from anything else, there are not enough currencies, so we will just go rand and rand in circles.
    I have faith in your ability to mint fresh script.

    Your faith is duly noted.
    You mustn’t get too inflated an opinion of yourself.

    You puzzled me there for a moment. I thought at first you had devalued the conversation.
    Just digging deep into my reserves.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    and p.s. the main hangover from the Barber boom was the record inflation of the early to mid-1970s.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Viceroy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You sure you don’t work for Putin’s Internet Research Agency ?

    Are you sure you don't work for Mad Merkel's Internet Research Agency?
    Quite hard to work for a figment of your imagination. On the other hand...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
    More Remain conspiracy theories.

    You caught up with the latest episode of Infowars?
    So the Mueller report is the product of a Remain conspiracy? Wowzerz
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
    You should get out more.
    I think TSE has a point that you can not get closer to people than ‘most’ doctors and that they work for a living, in marketing terms they are perceived as b1 but I bet they are more aware of the issues facing society.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Drutt said:

    (1) joining the common market would be great for business (result 3% reduction in GDP and the 3 day week)

    So, the hangover from the Barber Boom was the result of joining the EEC?

    The problem with all these (and this is true of Leavers and Remainers alike), is that everything is always a counterfactual.

    I think the UK is very likely to fall into recession in late 2019 or 2020. This is nothing to do with leaving the EU, but is a combination of:

    - our savings rate being at a fifty year low
    - the world economy slowing dramatically

    As it happens, I suspect that a disorderly Brexit - and especially the departure from the double taxation and withholding tax treaties - would make that process more painful.

    But stay or leave, the signs - whether PMIs, the bond market or household savings rates - are all pointing to us being at a cyclical peak right now.
    "the UK is very likely to fall into recession in late 2019 or 2020. This is nothing to do with leaving the EU, but is a combination of:
    - our savings rate being at a fifty year low
    - the world economy slowing dramatically"


    It's the change in savings (or consumption) that matters. The level of savings (or consumption) is immaterial for changes in GDP such as recessions. Now, if you are advocating an increase in savings, however it is to be brought about, that would be deflationary - i.e. likely to bring about, or to intensify, a recession.
    I'm not advocating, I'm pointing out that household savings rates are cyclical, and we're at at an all time low. Any global showdown will likely result in consumers in the UK becoming more cautious, which (as you note) will be deflationary.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    nichomar said:

    Roger said:

    This Brexit prog is almost unwatchable. If we don't have the worlds worst politicians who does? And with such a high opinion of themselves.

    I couldn't face it tbh. After 3 years of Brexit fiasco the topic has lost its appeal.
    That’s what ‘they’ want you don’t give a shit anymore just get it over I’ll accept anything but for god sake I’ve had enough. I can’t find the right analogy and I’m not even sure who ‘they’ are but I’m more interested in love island so go away and get on with something
    It's not really that... If there's something positive I can do to promote Remain, or at least a soft Brexit, I'll do it. But I can't face sitting through an hour being told what a mess Brexit is. I'll wait for the next Shipman book once it's all* over.

    (*Ok, once this phase is over.)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    edited July 2019
    Viceroy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    You sure you don’t work for Putin’s Internet Research Agency ?

    Are you sure you don't work for Mad Merkel's Internet Research Agency?
    Quite hard to work for a figment of your imagination. On the other hand...
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
    More Remain conspiracy theories.

    You caught up with the latest episode of Infowars?
    Take it up with wikipedia. I’m sure they’d be delighted to interact with you.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited July 2019
    Roger said:

    The EU completely outclasses us. It is Barcelona v Accrington Stanley under 15s. At least we can be sure Johnson will be fucked if anyone doubted it

    To be fair, whilst we might be at a particular low point in the cycle, an outsider making this type of programme (if such a thing were possible) would probably have come to the same conclusion at most points in the last 700 years. But left to their own devices ultimately those ‘impressive’ European politicians have usually managed to screw up. Repeatedly and often and generally with little encouragement from this side of the Channel. And in many cases because in the end they become fatally divorced from the people they purport to serve and/or rule over. The UK has a much better record in that regard - indeed it could be argued that the whole problem of Brexit has come about because our political class has become to much like the Europeans in ignoring the voters.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    edited July 2019
    nichomar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
    You should get out more.
    I think TSE has a point that you can not get closer to people than ‘most’ doctors and that they work for a living, in marketing terms they are perceived as b1 but I bet they are more aware of the issues facing society.
    I agree most doctors have a lot of contact with people from all walks of life but that doesn't make them working class.

    PS I know TSE is just winding us up with his northern working class lad schtick. I enjoy biting on it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    The EU completely outclasses us. It is Barcelona v Accrington Stanley under 15s. At least we can be sure Johnson will be fucked if anyone doubted it

    To be fair, whilst we might be at a particular low point in the cycle, an outsider making this type of programme (if such a thing were possible) would probably have come to the same conclusion at most points in the last 700 years. But left to their own devices ultimately those ‘impressive’ European politicians have usually managed to screw up. Repeatedly and often and generally with little encouragement from this side of the Channel.
    Compared to the past 700 years, we're pretty close to the high point of the circle. We like to pretend that we're living in the worst of times.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    You couldn't make David Davis up. What a 'little' man. It's almost impossible to believe he could have been PM.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    rcs1000 said:

    geoffw said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Drutt said:

    (1) joining the common market would be great for business (result 3% reduction in GDP and the 3 day week)

    So, the hangover from the Barber Boom was the result of joining the EEC?

    The problem with all these (and this is true of Leavers and Remainers alike), is that everything is always a counterfactual.

    I think the UK is very likely to fall into recession in late 2019 or 2020. This is nothing to do with leaving the EU, but is a combination of:

    - our savings rate being at a fifty year low
    - the world economy slowing dramatically

    As it happens, I suspect that a disorderly Brexit - and especially the departure from the double taxation and withholding tax treaties - would make that process more painful.

    But stay or leave, the signs - whether PMIs, the bond market or household savings rates - are all pointing to us being at a cyclical peak right now.
    "the UK is very likely to fall into recession in late 2019 or 2020. This is nothing to do with leaving the EU, but is a combination of:
    - our savings rate being at a fifty year low
    - the world economy slowing dramatically"


    It's the change in savings (or consumption) that matters. The level of savings (or consumption) is immaterial for changes in GDP such as recessions. Now, if you are advocating an increase in savings, however it is to be brought about, that would be deflationary - i.e. likely to bring about, or to intensify, a recession.
    I'm not advocating, I'm pointing out that household savings rates are cyclical, and we're at at an all time low. Any global showdown will likely result in consumers in the UK becoming more cautious, which (as you note) will be deflationary.
    Agreed
  • ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128

    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    I assume
    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.


    Do you live in the UK?
    I live in Moscow, allegedly.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    We are? I know you said "almost everyone", and I may be in a small minority, but. There are probably 100m Chinese wealthier and with more income than me, not to mention the numbers in India. And that is before the Western world.
    Not everyone on here earns the average salary or owns property.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Viceroy said:

    Viceroy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Viceroy said:

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.

    VONC

    NEXT!
    PM Corbyn and the nationalisation/seizure of wealthy Remainer assets.

    I won't be able to stop laughing.
    I assume
    Viceroy said:

    The next PM should simply say to the EU that he's going to veto absolutely everything that he can that isn't covered by QMV from now until we leave. Raise absolute hell so that they throw us out.

    Let's see Parliament do something about that.


    Do you live in the UK?
    I live in Moscow, allegedly.
    But Spain actually?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    alex. said:

    Roger said:

    The EU completely outclasses us. It is Barcelona v Accrington Stanley under 15s. At least we can be sure Johnson will be fucked if anyone doubted it

    To be fair, whilst we might be at a particular low point in the cycle, an outsider making this type of programme (if such a thing were possible) would probably have come to the same conclusion at most points in the last 700 years. But left to their own devices ultimately those ‘impressive’ European politicians have usually managed to screw up. Repeatedly and often and generally with little encouragement from this side of the Channel.
    However the conjunction of those ‘impressive’ European politicians managing not to screw up at the same time as ours are comprehensively befouling the UK's reputation is fairly singular.

    Nae luck!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
    You should get out more.
    I think TSE has a point that you can not get closer to people than ‘most’ doctors and that they work for a living, in marketing terms they are perceived as b1 but I bet they are more aware of the issues facing society.
    I agree most doctors have a lot of contact with people from all walks of life but that doesn't make them working class.

    PS I know TSE is just winding us up with his northern working class lad schtick. I enjoy biting on it.
    I think the class argument is outdated even the old a b1 b2 is now segmented down to 100 odd classifications, it has its uses in direct marketing terms but as an indicator to how you vote I’m not sure.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    OT Weather's gone to pot - we had some actual rain today!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    Just noticed Hunt didn't vote today - does he have a good excuse?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869

    Just noticed Hunt didn't vote today - does he have a good excuse?

    No. He thought he was paired, but he wasn’t.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722

    Just noticed Hunt didn't vote today - does he have a good excuse?

    Slippin' and slidin'.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Sounds like he’s been getting lessons from the Duke of Edinburgh.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
    You should get out more.
    I think TSE has a point that you can not get closer to people than ‘most’ doctors and that they work for a living, in marketing terms they are perceived as b1 but I bet they are more aware of the issues facing society.
    I agree most doctors have a lot of contact with people from all walks of life but that doesn't make them working class.

    PS I know TSE is just winding us up with his northern working class lad schtick. I enjoy biting on it.
    Oddly enough I grew up in Liverpool where my mother in particular was determined to be middle class and leave her roots behind by voting Tory. They were in those days sane and a reasonable alternative I can’t deny my so called middle class background, master mariner and teacher for parents but is class really a defining approach to how you vote? I would hope we’ve moved on from that
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    You would have thought he could have been more original in his insults.

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    Hey, I'm working class.
    Nah, private education expelled you from that class, if indeed you were ever in it. (Weren't your parents professionals?)
    My father and grandfathers were all doctors, you cannot get more working class than that.
    You should get out more.
    I think TSE has a point that you can not get closer to people than ‘most’ doctors and that they work for a living, in marketing terms they are perceived as b1 but I bet they are more aware of the issues facing society.
    I agree most doctors have a lot of contact with people from all walks of life but that doesn't make them working class.

    PS I know TSE is just winding us up with his northern working class lad schtick. I enjoy biting on it.
    Oddly enough I grew up in Liverpool where my mother in particular was determined to be middle class and leave her roots behind by voting Tory. They were in those days sane and a reasonable alternative I can’t deny my so called middle class background, master mariner and teacher for parents but is class really a defining approach to how you vote? I would hope we’ve moved on from that
    Who said anything about voting? This was a discussion about wealth and TSE's claims to be the working class, privately educated son of a doctor, from a familiy of doctors.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    Officials telling tales about Boris's musings?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Why is that not on tomorrow’s front pages? Oh ok its all fake news
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    geoffw said:

    Just noticed Hunt didn't vote today - does he have a good excuse?

    Slippin' and slidin'.
    Away
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,679
    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    Spent the early part of the leadership campaign reassuring Tory MPs opposed to No Deal that they should vote for Boris as Boris would never inflict the calamity of No Deal on the country.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698
    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Panorama.

    “Would this be bad ?”

    “Yes this would be bad”

    “Really bad?”

    “Yes really bad”

    “Badly bad bad ?”

    “Really bad”

    Top interrogation...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    edited July 2019

    Sounds like he’s been getting lessons from the Duke of Edinburgh.
    When his political career reaches its 'end in failure' point (imminently I hope), there'll always be a place for Boris in the DUP.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure those numbers make sense. Am I missing something?

    Global pop = 7.7 billion, 1% 77 million.

    EU & US labourforce = 400 million.

    Even ignoring China, Japan, Brazil, India, Australia, Canada etc, there is no way only 77/400 across EU & US earn $32.4k
    Indeed. How many in the UK are on above mean income? If it is only a third of the workforce, that is at least 10m in the UK alone.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Lidlington and Barnwell come across as a right pair of fannies.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    Spent the early part of the leadership campaign reassuring Tory MPs opposed to No Deal that they should vote for Boris as Boris would never inflict the calamity of No Deal on the country.
    Might still be true.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re wealth: it's also worth remembering that almost everyone on this site is a member of the global 1%. You might feel poor relative to Sean Thomas, but you're a lot closer to him in wealth and income, than you are to 95% of the world's population.

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp

    $32,400 puts you in the top 1% globally by income.
    Thanks, interesting article. So, converting USD to GBP...

    £25,800 income pa puts you in the global top 1%.
    £615,000 wealth is the global top 1% mark.
    Not sure those numbers make sense. Am I missing something?

    Global pop = 7.7 billion, 1% 77 million.

    EU & US labourforce = 400 million.

    Even ignoring China, Japan, Brazil, India, Australia, Canada etc, there is no way only 77/400 across EU & US earn $32.4k
    Good challenge... made me look at the source in more detail. Looks like the income value is net of taxes but I am not sure that makes that much difference.

    You can try it yourself...

    http://www.globalrichlist.com
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Scott_P said:
    Ouch! Don’t worry #RuthForFM. It not your fault petal. It’s that nasty Boris the Clown scaring off all your hard-won voters.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Lyndsey was right, but for *reasons* he disagrees with himself now that we have incontrovertible proof.

    https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1151928167214530560
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    rcs1000 said:

    Drutt said:

    (1) joining the common market would be great for business (result 3% reduction in GDP and the 3 day week)

    So, the hangover from the Barber Boom was the result of joining the EEC?

    The problem with all these (and this is true of Leavers and Remainers alike), is that everything is always a counterfactual.

    I think the UK is very likely to fall into recession in late 2019 or 2020. This is nothing to do with leaving the EU, but is a combination of:

    - our savings rate being at a fifty year low
    - the world economy slowing dramatically

    As it happens, I suspect that a disorderly Brexit - and especially the departure from the double taxation and withholding tax treaties - would make that process more painful.

    But stay or leave, the signs - whether PMIs, the bond market or household savings rates - are all pointing to us being at a cyclical peak right now.
    There looks to be a lot of end of cycle property investment to me.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624
    Its interesting that various PBers give such markedly different probabilities as to what will happen.

    Personally I think there is little chance of a No Deal exit and if it did happen it would most likely happen by accident - I don't think our politicians are competent enough to achieve a No Deal deliberately.

    It is rather amusing though that the No Deal Project Fear is warning of much less than the Leave Vote Project Dear did.

    For example 5% unemployment would only return the level to what it was at the Referendum.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,698

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Public sector pay rise. Nothing for those on disability and cares benefits.

    :angry:
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    alex. said:

    You would have thought he could have been more original in his insults.

    All very old style. Bernard Manning springs to mind. Does he do a chinky routine as his party trick? Boke.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,624

    alex. said:

    So, what’s happened to Jo Johnson these days? Keeping his head down, or an enthusiastic cheerleader for his brother?

    He's busy looking for his principles, last seen sometime in November. If anyone comes across them do let him know.
    You think Jo Johnson has ever had principles ?
    He had enough to resign in November.
    For what reason ?

    To help bring down May perhaps ?

    And who would gain from that ...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Mail doubling down on their dementia/social care campaign. No way the government can hold out much longer without finally doing something over this utter scandal:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1151962720582950918
  • FedUpToryFedUpTory Posts: 1
    Has anybody else ever had a problem with Vanilla recently where the "quote" function disappears off the comments and you can no longer send a comment. I usually post as username kjohnw, but for the last week or so , have been unable to do so, regardless of which browser or device I use, I have tried adjusting settings, but all to no avail. Any help would be appreciated, unless I have just been banned from PB or banished from Vanilla!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    FedUpTory said:

    Has anybody else ever had a problem with Vanilla recently where the "quote" function disappears off the comments and you can no longer send a comment. I usually post as username kjohnw, but for the last week or so , have been unable to do so, regardless of which browser or device I use, I have tried adjusting settings, but all to no avail. Any help would be appreciated, unless I have just been banned from PB or banished from Vanilla!

    Have you tried logging in via here: https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238

    alex. said:

    You would have thought he could have been more original in his insults.

    All very old style. Bernard Manning springs to mind. Does he do a chinky routine as his party trick? Boke.
    Why do you think he appeals so much to the over 60s ?

    He is a shambling anachronism.
This discussion has been closed.