She can't really bring this to a vote, can she? Certain defeat, and humiliation. Only last night, it was cheerfully asserted it would pass on Labour votes and abstentions. No chance.
I would.
If it gets voted down the markets crash and MPs will be under pressure to accept the deal.
This is what happened with TARP in America back in 2008, and what George Osborne's former Chief of Staff predicted would happen earlier on this week
Yes. It has to be put to the vote. Flags need to be nailed to masts. Only then might there be the leverage to change things.
I must give thanks to my now former employer for freeing up my time to be able to watch this (and indeed further Brexishambles) and to be paying me handsomely to do so.
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
But what was the alternative? Stay in the EU forever in a direction the majority don't want? or something else?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
Agree a national position then declare A50, negotiate from WTO to an eventual settlement
Another leaver sharing their infinite wisdom with us ...
Tell me, how the fuyck do we agree a 'national position' given the lies of the leave campaign?
hmmm your having a Brexit fit
come back when youve calmed down
Nope, not having a fit.
Just enjoying seeing leavers squirm at trying to avoid the blame for the mess they've created.
you need a lie down or go for a walk, a break will do you good
How about you having a break whilst you consider the mess you helped us get into? I can recommend some good walks.
whilst you consider the mess you helped us get into?
thats just funny, remind me how exactly I shaped the nation's politics ? LOL
Hm. Have you ever voted? In, say, an election or referendum?
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No. They haven't removed her so she is doing her job. She also knows it won't pass but she is making sure her party tell her to go and or parliament backs up it's words and votes it down.
That's not delusional it's making those opposed to her position follow through.
Mr Jessop is right, Leave argued for all sorts of things but very few argued for 'No Deal' (is that what you mean by 'proerly leave'?) Mrs May's deal would fulfil the referendum result even if it is Brexit In Name Only and worse than staying.
Cameron already went and got the best deal possible from the EU. The voters rejected this best deal and voted to leave.
The leave vote wasn't for yet another renegotiation with the EU. Unfortunately this seems to be what it has become since they've decided not to plan to leave on WTO terms at all.
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
Sometimes we underestimate what a bunker no10 can be. It has been obvious for weeks that she doesn't have the votes. Maybe not one of her sycophants told her and finally it is dawning. She has a very tin ear.
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
The two sides against it want completely contradictory outcomes. They are therefore both playing with fire.
The most obvious source of votes to get this deal through (at the second attempt, as discussed) is the Labour members who can tolerate it: not the relatively few Flints & Snells, but their front bench. Presumably their price would be a post-exit GE.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
The two sides against it want completely contradictory outcomes. They are therefore both playing with fire.
The most obvious source of votes to get this deal through (at the second attempt, as discussed) is the Labour members who can tolerate it: not the relatively few Flints & Snells, but their front bench. Presumably their price would be a post-exit GE.
Except their pretext for a GE was to renegotiate the deal, which they've trashed and now cannot support.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
Nope. She has been and remains politically tone deaf. A deal was always easy. The trick was to find a deal that passes both the EU and the HoC.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
Given the red lines May drew (and despite them turning a very light pink), if we are to leave, there is no better deal than this very bad deal. Anyone claiming otherwise is either a fool or a liar.
It would be interesting - and highly relevant - to know what the EU and other member states are making of what's happening today.
If they come to the view that Britain cannot stick to its side of the bargain, what will they do?
Say "This is the deal. Take it or leave it. And if you don't take it before 29 Marchit's the hardest of Brexits for you. After that date come back to talk to us when you're serious. Our focus will be on protecting ourselves and our citizens."
Or what?
Pretty much. They may also add that they still have affection for Britain and would be willing to pretend that the last three years didn't happen if we asked them to forget it all.
Minus the rebate and all that "we're not having an army" stuff.
I have to say that May has gone up in my estimation. Trying to lead this shower must take the patience of Job.
Agree.
I wonder where we'll be in a week if the letters fail to hit the critical mass again, and the polling still puts her government ahead of the opposition and her way ahead for best PM.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
but unless the EU does something we do leave on March 29th - into a complete no-mans land of unpreparedness..
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
Arguably that's backwards. If the deal does not pass then unless something intervenes we ARE leaving then.
Arguably if the deal passes then we only leave on 1 January 2021, depending on your perspective.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
Actually, yes we will be - unless we revoke Art 50.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
On that basis unless we can negotiate something else we will be.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
Article 50 and the deal are seperate things though.
I know there’s a lot of handwringing that we’ll have to do something to prevent a no-deal, but if this doesn’t pass it’s perfectly conceivable that we leave on that date without a deal, if parliament can’t agree an alternative.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
It’s a martyrdom strategy. She’s going to make the Tory party beg to make it stop.
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
The two sides against it want completely contradictory outcomes. They are therefore both playing with fire.
The most obvious source of votes to get this deal through (at the second attempt, as discussed) is the Labour members who can tolerate it: not the relatively few Flints & Snells, but their front bench. Presumably their price would be a post-exit GE.
Except their pretext for a GE was to renegotiate the deal, which they've trashed and now cannot support.
In the context of a market/sterling meltdown, they could present themselves as acting responsibly (McDonnell would love that). They don't need a pretext for a GE: they want to replace the Government.
I'm not saying this is going to happen. Clearly right now most people (and therefore many politicians) are against the deal because they think they can either get Remain (a democratic catastrophe) or No Deal (potentially an economic catastrophe, depending on the degree of mitigation that is possible). When they realise they can't - or when one outcome starts to look far more likely than the other, then opinions may change.
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
The two sides against it want completely contradictory outcomes. They are therefore both playing with fire.
The most obvious source of votes to get this deal through (at the second attempt, as discussed) is the Labour members who can tolerate it: not the relatively few Flints & Snells, but their front bench. Presumably their price would be a post-exit GE.
Would she have the support on her own backbenches for that sort of deal?
Many must be supporting her as a shield against Corbyn, so would they support a 2019GE?
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
Given the red lines May drew (and despite them turning a very light pink), if we are to leave, there is no better deal than this very bad deal. Anyone claiming otherwise is either a fool or a liar.
It would be interesting - and highly relevant - to know what the EU and other member states are making of what's happening today.
If they come to the view that Britain cannot stick to its side of the bargain, what will they do?
Say "This is the deal. Take it or leave it. And if you don't take it before 29 Marchit's the hardest of Brexits for you. After that date come back to talk to us when you're serious. Our focus will be on protecting ourselves and our citizens."
Or what?
Pretty much. They may also add that they still have affection for Britain and would be willing to pretend that the last three years didn't happen if we asked them to forget it all.
I rather hope they do do that. I thought it was quite telling that Tusk was saying that while they would prefer us to stay they would try and make the process of departure as painless as possible.
It is painful to see my country humiliate itself in this way. I have no fondness for the EU and they have much to learn from this saga as well but Britain has behaved in a way which saddens me. We have - could have - so much to offer, whether in or out, but we seem intent on blowing our own feet off. We could have spent the time trying to address seriously the concerns of Leave voters, many of which will not be cured by leaving, or the concerns of Remain voters. But no. We have pretended that someone like Mogg is worth listening to, that someone who doesn't understand the basic geography of where he lives is fit to be in Cabinet that knowledge and expertise about the EU are to be ignored, that businesses are to be insulted when they raise genuine concerns, that the fears of people who have made Britain their home are to be airily dismissed, that the Irish are to be patronised or told that they don't understand the history of their country and so - depressingly - on.
Even if something gets resolved, we have done ourselves great harm in the way we have conducted ourselves. We could have gone about this soberly and intelligently and with a degree of seriousness. That might at least have earned the grudging respect of those who disagreed with the destination. But this - the Bridgens and IDS's and Moggs and the rest of them - are both pathetic and dangerous and deserve nothing but contempt.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
She should have spent more time realising that negotiations needed to happen both in Brussels and in the UK where it was crucial to find out what Brexit actually meant. Her arrogance when she first became PM and her 'Brexit means Brexit' nonsense meant that however good her negotiating skill with Brussels was, it was wasted.
I must give thanks to my now former employer for freeing up my time to be able to watch this (and indeed further Brexishambles) and to be paying me handsomely to do so.
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
The two sides against it want completely contradictory outcomes. They are therefore both playing with fire.
The most obvious source of votes to get this deal through (at the second attempt, as discussed) is the Labour members who can tolerate it: not the relatively few Flints & Snells, but their front bench. Presumably their price would be a post-exit GE.
Would she have the support on her own backbenches for that sort of deal?
Many must be supporting her as a shield against Corbyn, so would they support a 2019GE?
That would be the problem: how many loyalist votes would she lose? She'd be finished as Conservative leader too (for that GE) but she knows Brexit is bigger than that.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
Nope. She has been and remains politically tone deaf. A deal was always easy. The trick was to find a deal that passes both the EU and the HoC.
That doesn't mean she is delusional now, which is insulting. She is pm intends to present her option to the house. It won't pass but until such time as her party removes her she is not being delusional in going through the motions.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
Nope. She has been and remains politically tone deaf. A deal was always easy. The trick was to find a deal that passes both the EU and the HoC.
Politically tone-deaf, yes I agree. But a deal was certainly not easy at all, she's done incredibly well to get this far.
She's made lots of unforced errors, and has never been good at carrying people with her, but her analysis of the best way forward has been spot-on. This is the best implementation of Brexit we can get. She seems to have tripped over on the Brexiteers' bizarre urge to trash what they had been campaigning for for years.
There is supposed to be a special summit on the 25th of this month to ratify the deal. I really can't see that happening if it is evident that the HoC is not going to ratify it. There is no way that other MS are going to waste their time seeking approval of this after today.
Who will even go? It seems unlikely to be May at the moment. What will they want? Time? For what? And what if the answer is no, which it seems increasingly likely to be?
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
What's funny is you are incorrect about that. Maybe hold the laughter for something May is wrong about, since there's not a guarantee another option will emerge.
Blimey, that's fighting talk given Raab is going to be the next PM.
I think Raab has misjudged this and the anger shown in that interview will be widely spread.
Who'd have thought, Nicky Morgan and David Mundell speaking for the nation.
Last month apparently Mundell wrote to the PM saying he would not support any deal that introduces different arrangements for Northern Ireland as it would "undermine the integrity" of the UK.
The deal clearly does - so why is he still in the Cabinet. Or did he just lay down his principles to save his ministerial car?
It would be interesting - and highly relevant - to know what the EU and other member states are making of what's happening today.
If they come to the view that Britain cannot stick to its side of the bargain, what will they do?
Say "This is the deal. Take it or leave it. And if you don't take it before 29 Marchit's the hardest of Brexits for you. After that date come back to talk to us when you're serious. Our focus will be on protecting ourselves and our citizens."
Or what?
Pretty much. They may also add that they still have affection for Britain and would be willing to pretend that the last three years didn't happen if we asked them to forget it all.
Minus the rebate and all that "we're not having an army" stuff.
Frankly, if there is to be an EU army, that would be a good thing for Britain. We'd probably end up playing a big part in it. Or we could rely on Trump.... I know who I'd prefer at this point.
Much as it sickens me I think the misjudgement might be from the remainer opponents of the deal. If May gets replaced the next leader is going to be more hardline on Europe - and the DUP will clearly support a Raab, Davis or Boris (Yes yes I know). They won't be revoking Art 50 before 29th March.
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
Given the red lines May drew (and despite them turning a very light pink), if we are to leave, there is no better deal than this very bad deal. Anyone claiming otherwise is either a fool or a liar.
CU and SM would pass EU and HOC IMO
They would only be available if FOM was also included. While that wouldn't bother me, I seriously doubt it would make the majority happy.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
Nope. She has been and remains politically tone deaf. A deal was always easy. The trick was to find a deal that passes both the EU and the HoC.
Politically tone-deaf, yes I agree. But a deal was certainly not easy at all, she's done incredibly well to get this far.
She's made lots of unforced errors, and has never been good at carrying people with her, but her analysis of the best way forward has been spot-on. This is the best implementation of Brexit we can get. She seems to have tripped over on the Brexiteers' bizarre urge to trash what they had been campaigning for for years.
A deal was easy. If she had rocked up at Brussels and said to Barnier "Write me a deal and I will take it back" and said yes to everything the EU wanted. She could have sat at home, done nothing and be in no worse position today.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
I agree in the main with her deal However the reality which she seems to be in total denial about is that it can not get through parliament.
That is not her duty. Duty is to lead the country to what is possible, not her own deal that has no chance of getting through parliament.
Minus the rebate and all that "we're not having an army" stuff.
The European Army is happening and the UK is probably going to be involved whether we're in or out of the EU as the alternative would be to fund fully our own defence capabilities. No government, but especially tory ones, have any fondness for that notion.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
What's funny is you are incorrect about that.
I totally understand that we will crash out unless we act - have been posting on that for a long time. But whilst its clear that May's deal will not pass the house its also clear that No Deal will also not pass the house. The idea that MPs will vote down the deal and then do nothing else is absurd.
There are a whole swathe of options as alternatives to this deal or no deal. And literally scores of MPs have lined up to point this out to the PM and she keeps insisting its her way or the highway
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
Er, yes we will. Without a deal, without any preparation, if this one is rejected.
If MPs think that we're in an even bigger mess than I thought.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
She should have spent more time realising that negotiations needed to happen both in Brussels and in the UK where it was crucial to find out what Brexit actually meant. Her arrogance when she first became PM and her 'Brexit means Brexit' nonsense meant that however good her negotiating skill with Brussels was, it was wasted.
Don't worry, I don't think there was a lot of that to waste. Her brilliant strategy was "spend a year on totally doomed attempts to dodge the backstop you agreed on, then just give up"
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
Nope. She has been and remains politically tone deaf. A deal was always easy. The trick was to find a deal that passes both the EU and the HoC.
Politically tone-deaf, yes I agree. But a deal was certainly not easy at all, she's done incredibly well to get this far.
She's made lots of unforced errors, and has never been good at carrying people with her, but her analysis of the best way forward has been spot-on. This is the best implementation of Brexit we can get. She seems to have tripped over on the Brexiteers' bizarre urge to trash what they had been campaigning for for years.
A deal was easy. If she had rocked up at Brussels and said to Barnier "Write me a deal and I will take it back" and said yes to everything the EU wanted. She could have sat at home, done nothing and be in no worse position today.
Her deal has failed.
Which has nothing to do with the insults about her being delusional today because she is pressing on until removed.
Mr Jessop is right, Leave argued for all sorts of things but very few argued for 'No Deal' (is that what you mean by 'proerly leave'?) Mrs May's deal would fulfil the referendum result even if it is Brexit In Name Only and worse than staying.
Cameron already went and got the best deal possible from the EU. The voters rejected this best deal and voted to leave.
The leave vote wasn't for yet another renegotiation with the EU. Unfortunately this seems to be what it has become since they've decided not to plan to leave on WTO terms at all.
You can't just 'Leave'. Like a divorce you have to agree on the splitting of the bills and assets. That was what TMay was negotiating.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
Nope. She has been and remains politically tone deaf. A deal was always easy. The trick was to find a deal that passes both the EU and the HoC.
Politically tone-deaf, yes I agree. But a deal was certainly not easy at all, she's done incredibly well to get this far.
She's made lots of unforced errors, and has never been good at carrying people with her, but her analysis of the best way forward has been spot-on. This is the best implementation of Brexit we can get. She seems to have tripped over on the Brexiteers' bizarre urge to trash what they had been campaigning for for years.
A deal was easy. If she had rocked up at Brussels and said to Barnier "Write me a deal and I will take it back" and said yes to everything the EU wanted. She could have sat at home, done nothing and be in no worse position today.
Her deal has failed.
Which bit of it don't you like (on the basis that Remain isn't available as a preferable option)?
Hoey speaking against the deal. This has to be the final nail. She's the most committed Labour leaver. I don't think it will even come to a vote now. It would be crushingly defeated.
There is supposed to be a special summit on the 25th of this month to ratify the deal. I really can't see that happening if it is evident that the HoC is not going to ratify it. There is no way that other MS are going to waste their time seeking approval of this after today.
Who will even go? It seems unlikely to be May at the moment. What will they want? Time? For what? And what if the answer is no, which it seems increasingly likely to be?
It's not like there's some other deal that the people resigning from the cabinet will accept, so maybe the EU side just proceeds with their end as if nothing is wrong then waits to see if the British somehow manage to get their shit together as the consequences of No Deal get closer.
Please can Tory MPs put the poor woman out of her misery? #MayMustGo
It is sad to see a PM in parliament been so torn apart , with MPs laughing at her replies.
I think she has done her best . But she seems not to be taking in the reality of the parliamentary situation.
She is becoming delusional.
No, she wants to carry out her duty. She has done her best, and in fact against the odds come back with a workable deal which would implement Brexit without trashing the economy too much. There's no room to change it, apart perhaps from some minor tweaking. So I think she's present it to the House. If the House rejects it, well, that's their decision, and their responsibility. The implications would disastrous but she'll have done her duty. And of course, history will vindicate her position.
Nope. She has been and remains politically tone deaf. A deal was always easy. The trick was to find a deal that passes both the EU and the HoC.
Politically tone-deaf, yes I agree. But a deal was certainly not easy at all, she's done incredibly well to get this far.
She's made lots of unforced errors, and has never been good at carrying people with her, but her analysis of the best way forward has been spot-on. This is the best implementation of Brexit we can get. She seems to have tripped over on the Brexiteers' bizarre urge to trash what they had been campaigning for for years.
A deal was easy. If she had rocked up at Brussels and said to Barnier "Write me a deal and I will take it back" and said yes to everything the EU wanted. She could have sat at home, done nothing and be in no worse position today.
Her deal has failed.
Which has nothing to do with the insults about her being delusional today because she is pressing on until removed.
It's not an insult is purely a description of how she is operating. She is PM on the basis of the 317 Tory MPs that sit behind her. Her first, second and third job is to carry them.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
What's funny is you are incorrect about that.
I totally understand that we will crash out unless we act - have been posting on that for a long time. But whilst its clear that May's deal will not pass the house its also clear that No Deal will also not pass the house. The idea that MPs will vote down the deal and then do nothing else is absurd.
There are a whole swathe of options as alternatives to this deal or no deal. And literally scores of MPs have lined up to point this out to the PM and she keeps insisting its her way or the highway
No deal is default - it doesn't need to pass any house, it occurs unless something else is agreed.
Does it? So why didn't he publicise his resignation at 7.15 pm last night but waited until 9am today?
I imagine he thought directly undermining the PM's presentation of the agreed Cabinet position would be incendiary and dishonourable. But it shows he made the call himself, without waiting for media / outriders.
Hoey speaking against the deal. This has to be the final nail. She's the most committed Labour leaver. I don't think it will even come to a vote now. It would be crushingly defeated.
She's pretty much Labour ERG - so was never likely. It's the more moderate Labour leavers we need to wait from.
There is supposed to be a special summit on the 25th of this month to ratify the deal. I really can't see that happening if it is evident that the HoC is not going to ratify it. There is no way that other MS are going to waste their time seeking approval of this after today.
Who will even go? It seems unlikely to be May at the moment. What will they want? Time? For what? And what if the answer is no, which it seems increasingly likely to be?
It's not like there's some other deal that the people resigning from the cabinet will accept, so maybe the EU side just proceeds with their end as if nothing is wrong then waits to see if the British somehow manage to get their shit together as the consequences of No Deal get closer.
@Baddiel 2h2 hours ago More I feel I should take the job of Brexit Secretary now. If only so that when I resign, Theresa May can finally be proved right than No Deal is better than a Baddiel.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
What's funny is you are incorrect about that.
I totally understand that we will crash out unless we act - have been posting on that for a long time. But whilst its clear that May's deal will not pass the house its also clear that No Deal will also not pass the house. The idea that MPs will vote down the deal and then do nothing else is absurd.
There are a whole swathe of options as alternatives to this deal or no deal. And literally scores of MPs have lined up to point this out to the PM and she keeps insisting its her way or the highway
No deal doesn't have to pass the house so long as nothing else does. We presume something would - I think referendum- but anyone claiming that is certain is being completely irresponsible because it us a real possibility and mocking May for not accepting that uncertainty as certain is just plain silly.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
What's funny is you are incorrect about that.
I totally understand that we will crash out unless we act - have been posting on that for a long time. But whilst its clear that May's deal will not pass the house its also clear that No Deal will also not pass the house. The idea that MPs will vote down the deal and then do nothing else is absurd.
There are a whole swathe of options as alternatives to this deal or no deal. And literally scores of MPs have lined up to point this out to the PM and she keeps insisting its her way or the highway
This comes back to my question earlier with regard to the meaningful vote.
It was indicated yesterday that the government will take the amendments before the vote so will a vote take place on a second referendum before the meaningful vote.
If so the second referendum may be lost leaving only deal or no deal
Not an expert on this but it does seem very important
There is supposed to be a special summit on the 25th of this month to ratify the deal. I really can't see that happening if it is evident that the HoC is not going to ratify it. There is no way that other MS are going to waste their time seeking approval of this after today.
Who will even go? It seems unlikely to be May at the moment. What will they want? Time? For what? And what if the answer is no, which it seems increasingly likely to be?
The EU won't want the blame for this falling apart so they will continue with their own approval process until the British formally notify them that the deal is off.
Mr Jessop is right, Leave argued for all sorts of things but very few argued for 'No Deal' (is that what you mean by 'proerly leave'?) Mrs May's deal would fulfil the referendum result even if it is Brexit In Name Only and worse than staying.
Cameron already went and got the best deal possible from the EU. The voters rejected this best deal and voted to leave.
The leave vote wasn't for yet another renegotiation with the EU. Unfortunately this seems to be what it has become since they've decided not to plan to leave on WTO terms at all.
You can't just 'Leave'. Like a divorce you have to agree on the splitting of the bills and assets. That was what TMay was negotiating.
"negotiating" is a bit disingenious, did you mean capitulating
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
What's funny is you are incorrect about that.
I totally understand that we will crash out unless we act - have been posting on that for a long time. But whilst its clear that May's deal will not pass the house its also clear that No Deal will also not pass the house. The idea that MPs will vote down the deal and then do nothing else is absurd.
There are a whole swathe of options as alternatives to this deal or no deal. And literally scores of MPs have lined up to point this out to the PM and she keeps insisting its her way or the highway
No deal is default - it doesn't need to pass any house, it occurs unless something else is agreed.
Indeed as I have pointed out for months. Yet the house will pass a binding motion prohibiting no deal. So the government won't be permitted to put its feet up and do nothing.
Hoey speaking against the deal. This has to be the final nail. She's the most committed Labour leaver. I don't think it will even come to a vote now. It would be crushingly defeated.
She's pretty much Labour ERG - so was never likely. It's the more moderate Labour leavers we need to wait from.
Yeah, it's the Umunna centrists who are most likely to rebel. Though at this point the prospect of enough of them riding to the rescue doesn't look great.
What is increasingly funny is that she keeps opening answers with "we are leaving the EU on 29th March 2019". Despite question after question pointing out that the deal will not pass and on that basis no we won't be
Er, yes we will. Without a deal, without any preparation, if this one is rejected.
If MPs think that we're in an even bigger mess than I thought.
And it's possible that (for opposing reasons) a majority of MPs would welcome No Deal.
Comments
May looks a beaten woman. Not making eye contact with anyone, a shadow of her former self, as they say.
Taking a step back, however, if the deal is upsetting everyone, then there must be something to it.
That's not delusional it's making those opposed to her position follow through.
The leave vote wasn't for yet another renegotiation with the EU. Unfortunately this seems to be what it has become since they've decided not to plan to leave on WTO terms at all.
She sounds like the fireman who defended the advice to stay in Grenfell Tower because it was the advice in their instruction book.
The most obvious source of votes to get this deal through (at the second attempt, as discussed) is the Labour members who can tolerate it: not the relatively few Flints & Snells, but their front bench. Presumably their price would be a post-exit GE.
https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1062775422763573249?s=19
I wonder where we'll be in a week if the letters fail to hit the critical mass again, and the polling still puts her government ahead of the opposition and her way ahead for best PM.
Arguably if the deal passes then we only leave on 1 January 2021, depending on your perspective.
I know there’s a lot of handwringing that we’ll have to do something to prevent a no-deal, but if this doesn’t pass it’s perfectly conceivable that we leave on that date without a deal, if parliament can’t agree an alternative.
I'm not saying this is going to happen. Clearly right now most people (and therefore many politicians) are against the deal because they think they can either get Remain (a democratic catastrophe) or No Deal (potentially an economic catastrophe, depending on the degree of mitigation that is possible). When they realise they can't - or when one outcome starts to look far more likely than the other, then opinions may change.
Many must be supporting her as a shield against Corbyn, so would they support a 2019GE?
Parliament is united in condemning the draft deal. From all quarters.
It is painful to see my country humiliate itself in this way. I have no fondness for the EU and they have much to learn from this saga as well but Britain has behaved in a way which saddens me. We have - could have - so much to offer, whether in or out, but we seem intent on blowing our own feet off. We could have spent the time trying to address seriously the concerns of Leave voters, many of which will not be cured by leaving, or the concerns of Remain voters. But no. We have pretended that someone like Mogg is worth listening to, that someone who doesn't understand the basic geography of where he lives is fit to be in Cabinet that knowledge and expertise about the EU are to be ignored, that businesses are to be insulted when they raise genuine concerns, that the fears of people who have made Britain their home are to be airily dismissed, that the Irish are to be patronised or told that they don't understand the history of their country and so - depressingly - on.
Even if something gets resolved, we have done ourselves great harm in the way we have conducted ourselves. We could have gone about this soberly and intelligently and with a degree of seriousness. That might at least have earned the grudging respect of those who disagreed with the destination. But this - the Bridgens and IDS's and Moggs and the rest of them - are both pathetic and dangerous and deserve nothing but contempt.
She's made lots of unforced errors, and has never been good at carrying people with her, but her analysis of the best way forward has been spot-on. This is the best implementation of Brexit we can get. She seems to have tripped over on the Brexiteers' bizarre urge to trash what they had been campaigning for for years.
There is supposed to be a special summit on the 25th of this month to ratify the deal. I really can't see that happening if it is evident that the HoC is not going to ratify it. There is no way that other MS are going to waste their time seeking approval of this after today.
Who will even go? It seems unlikely to be May at the moment. What will they want? Time? For what? And what if the answer is no, which it seems increasingly likely to be?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2017/jun/12/steve-bells-if-theresa-may-nothing-has-changed
That's typical of the metropolitan elitist sneering, and disregard for, the strength of feeling in the country.
The deal clearly does - so why is he still in the Cabinet. Or did he just lay down his principles to save his ministerial car?
His anger is therefore just a bit much.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45856784
If May gets replaced the next leader is going to be more hardline on Europe - and the DUP will clearly support a Raab, Davis or Boris (Yes yes I know). They won't be revoking Art 50 before 29th March.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1063038883372371968
https://twitter.com/Laura_K_Hughes/status/1063039511494643712
Utterly delusional.
Her deal has failed.
However the reality which she seems to be in total denial about is that it can not get through parliament.
That is not her duty.
Duty is to lead the country to what is possible, not her own deal that has no chance of getting through parliament.
There are a whole swathe of options as alternatives to this deal or no deal. And literally scores of MPs have lined up to point this out to the PM and she keeps insisting its her way or the highway
Er, yes we will. Without a deal, without any preparation, if this one is rejected.
If MPs think that we're in an even bigger mess than I thought.
She is ploughing on utterly deaf to that.
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@Baddiel
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I feel I should take the job of Brexit Secretary now. If only so that when I resign, Theresa May can finally be proved right than No Deal is better than a Baddiel.
Place your trust in Truss.
Don't feta our discretion - back Liz T to get a better deal
We Gouda back Liz Truss
Don't truss May truss Liz!
It was indicated yesterday that the government will take the amendments before the vote so will a vote take place on a second referendum before the meaningful vote.
If so the second referendum may be lost leaving only deal or no deal
Not an expert on this but it does seem very important