May's Deal is dead, but we are still Brexiting. Brexit is still in progress. Come 29th March, out we go with no deal.
The hardcore Brexiteers will still get their hard Brexit. All they have to do is keep the chaos going for a few more months.
That's not actually inevitable, is it? There's a mechanism by which we can extend the exit in order to obtain the best negotiation.
It's the status quo until someone makes a change. Who can now command a majority of the House? No-one, and so the likelihood of changing the status quo is slim.
2 years to get here, and for all people will say correctly May is crap, people have also noted the EU fights hard and has a strong hand. A claim of a better negotiation at this stage is hugely reckless.
I accept he is reading out what someone has written for him, but this could be Corbyn's finest hour without a shadow of a doubt. The most forensic and statesmanlike he has ever been.
Paradoxically, I thought it was a good statement from May too, in all the circumstances.
I thought Ken Clark trumped them all. Theresa is to be admired but she's selling a dead parrot and sometimes she even appears to know it
May's Deal is dead, but we are still Brexiting. Brexit is still in progress. Come 29th March, out we go with no deal.
The hardcore Brexiteers will still get their hard Brexit. All they have to do is keep the chaos going for a few more months.
That's not actually inevitable, is it? There's a mechanism by which we can extend the exit in order to obtain the best negotiation.
It's the status quo until someone makes a change. Who can now command a majority of the House? No-one, and so the likelihood of changing the status quo is slim.
I reckon a new leader would win HUGE parliamentary backing for a 12 month delay in order to sort this out.
I wonder what Barnier and Blair are thinking at this moment? Yesterday they were smugly thinking the Establishment had hoodwinked the British voters.... Now? Not so much maybe......
Blair wants the deal to fail.
This idea that just because Leavers hate the deal, Remainers must love it is very weird, MM. I think the sooner you disabuse yourself of it the sooner you'll start understanding what's actually motivating the various actors here.
Blair has two leagacies: Iraq and knitting the UK inextricably into the EU without troubling the people to get their permission. He's still happy with the outcome of at least one of those.
May's Deal is dead, but we are still Brexiting. Brexit is still in progress. Come 29th March, out we go with no deal.
The hardcore Brexiteers will still get their hard Brexit. All they have to do is keep the chaos going for a few more months.
That's not actually inevitable, is it? There's a mechanism by which we can extend the exit in order to obtain the best negotiation.
It's the status quo until someone makes a change. Who can now command a majority of the House? No-one, and so the likelihood of changing the status quo is slim.
I reckon a new leader would win HUGE parliamentary backing for a 12 month delay in order to sort this out.
Sort it out in what way?
We should put to the House 3 options:
1. A much much better deal for Britain
or
2. No Deal exit
or
3. A second referendum
A 12 month delay would allow time to sort out all three possibilities, to have them debated correctly in the House as genuine options and then to be voted upon.
Perhaps you misread "competent" for "incompetent" in my post? If metaphors are too difficult for you, what I was saying was that Corbyn had been given an easy job to do, and was doing it well.
May's Deal is dead, but we are still Brexiting. Brexit is still in progress. Come 29th March, out we go with no deal.
The hardcore Brexiteers will still get their hard Brexit. All they have to do is keep the chaos going for a few more months.
That's not actually inevitable, is it? There's a mechanism by which we can extend the exit in order to obtain the best negotiation.
It's the status quo until someone makes a change. Who can now command a majority of the House? No-one, and so the likelihood of changing the status quo is slim.
2 years to get here, and for all people will say correctly May is crap, people have also noted the EU fights hard and has a strong hand. A claim of a better negotiation at this stage is hugely reckless.
Also, for the EU, what is the incentive to renegotiate? They could waste a lot of time and effort and see a second deal scuppered again by disunity in Britain.
If your counterpart in negotiations cannot make an agreement stick then negotiations are pointless.
May's Deal is dead, but we are still Brexiting. Brexit is still in progress. Come 29th March, out we go with no deal.
The hardcore Brexiteers will still get their hard Brexit. All they have to do is keep the chaos going for a few more months.
That's not actually inevitable, is it? There's a mechanism by which we can extend the exit in order to obtain the best negotiation.
It's the status quo until someone makes a change. Who can now command a majority of the House? No-one, and so the likelihood of changing the status quo is slim.
I reckon a new leader would win HUGE parliamentary backing for a 12 month delay in order to sort this out.
Sort it out in what way?
We should put to the House 3 options:
1. A much much better deal for Britain
or
2. No Deal exit
or
3. A second referendum
A 12 month delay would allow time to sort out all three possibilities, to have them debated correctly in the House as genuine options and then to be voted upon.
Precisely what is this mythical 'much, much better deal for Britain' ? You might as well have utopia as an option.
I wonder what Barnier and Blair are thinking at this moment? Yesterday they were smugly thinking the Establishment had hoodwinked the British voters.... Now? Not so much maybe......
Blair wants the deal to fail.
This idea that just because Leavers hate the deal, Remainers must love it is very weird, MM. I think the sooner you disabuse yourself of it the sooner you'll start understanding what's actually motivating the various actors here.
Blair has two leagacies: Iraq and knitting the UK inextricably into the EU without troubling the people to get their permission. He's still happy with the outcome of at least one of those.
Our membership of the EU has been largely a Tory project, from Macmillan to Heath to Thatcher to Major.
May's Deal is dead, but we are still Brexiting. Brexit is still in progress. Come 29th March, out we go with no deal.
The hardcore Brexiteers will still get their hard Brexit. All they have to do is keep the chaos going for a few more months.
That's not actually inevitable, is it? There's a mechanism by which we can extend the exit in order to obtain the best negotiation.
It's the status quo until someone makes a change. Who can now command a majority of the House? No-one, and so the likelihood of changing the status quo is slim.
I reckon a new leader would win HUGE parliamentary backing for a 12 month delay in order to sort this out.
Sort it out in what way?
We should put to the House 3 options:
1. A much much better deal for Britain
or
2. No Deal exit
or
3. A second referendum
A 12 month delay would allow time to sort out all three possibilities, to have them debated correctly in the House as genuine options and then to be voted upon.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
I'm drawn to the parallels of March 2003 when Blair, operating, it has to be said, from a vastly more advantageous Parliamentary position than May, had to get Parliament to agree to British involvement in the Iraq invasion.
His own Party was split from stem to stern and he had lost Cabinet Ministers, primarily, and May hasn't yet lost one of the big three, Robin Cook. The Opposition was, however, led by a man few envisaged as ever becoming PM who was, if anything, more supportive of the Government position than Blair himself.
In the end, IDS led most of the Conservative Parliamentary Party (with 12 or 13 honourable exceptions) into the lobby with Blair and 250 Labour MPs and Blair won the day comfortably relying on Opposition support just as Heath had in the early 70s and May might in the days to come.
After Iraq, it was never the same for Blair I'd argue. Yes, he won in 2005 but the majority was slashed by 100 and history hasn't been kind. Heath staggered on until his demise at the hands of his own indecisiveness and Joe Gormley in early 74.
As for Iraq itself, opinion is mixed at best. The removal of Saddam wasn't the end of it and much of where we are today stems from the events of 2003 (and indeed 2001).
The only hope I can see is May getting the Deal through and then retiring next spring but where is the unifying figure in the Conservative Party and around what are they supposed to be unifying - making a Deal work to which many are vehemently opposed? The Referendum was supposed, as I understood it, to draw a line under Conservative internal divisions over Europe - today suggests that hasn't quite worked out as planned.
May's Deal is dead, but we are still Brexiting. Brexit is still in progress. Come 29th March, out we go with no deal.
The hardcore Brexiteers will still get their hard Brexit. All they have to do is keep the chaos going for a few more months.
That's not actually inevitable, is it? There's a mechanism by which we can extend the exit in order to obtain the best negotiation.
It's the status quo until someone makes a change. Who can now command a majority of the House? No-one, and so the likelihood of changing the status quo is slim.
I reckon a new leader would win HUGE parliamentary backing for a 12 month delay in order to sort this out.
Sort it out in what way?
We should put to the House 3 options:
1. A much much better deal for Britain
or
2. No Deal exit
or
3. A second referendum
A 12 month delay would allow time to sort out all three possibilities, to have them debated correctly in the House as genuine options and then to be voted upon.
Given that at least two of those outcomes are worse for the EU - and the third might well be, if the voters continue in their ornery mood - why the hell would they agree to an extension???
I wonder what Barnier and Blair are thinking at this moment? Yesterday they were smugly thinking the Establishment had hoodwinked the British voters.... Now? Not so much maybe......
Blair wants the deal to fail.
This idea that just because Leavers hate the deal, Remainers must love it is very weird, MM. I think the sooner you disabuse yourself of it the sooner you'll start understanding what's actually motivating the various actors here.
"So, it all fails because we 'can't trust Europe'? Sorry mate, you're rationalising. "
I'm afraid so. You can trust the Labour party to put party first, as do the Tories. I keep harking back to the famous scene in the 'The Godfather' when I think of the EU. "Tell Mrs May, it's not personal, it's strictly business."
Why would the EU allow us to exit at our time of choosing and expect the other countries to accept us leaving and cherry-picking. Mrs May is either a naïve fool or the wisest person in Christendom. I fear the former.
By the way we absolutely need to scotch this nonsense (repeated by the useless idiot Cable) that there only two alternatives: No Deal or a 2nd Referendum.
No. No. No.
There's a third, much better, option. A better deal.
Theresa May might not be the most inspiring character but she is a detail person, and there's no denying she is absolutely 100% immersed in the detail and complications of Brexit.
Give her credit for that. My eyes would've glazed over on page 1.
I wonder what Barnier and Blair are thinking at this moment? Yesterday they were smugly thinking the Establishment had hoodwinked the British voters.... Now? Not so much maybe......
Blair wants the deal to fail.
This idea that just because Leavers hate the deal, Remainers must love it is very weird, MM. I think the sooner you disabuse yourself of it the sooner you'll start understanding what's actually motivating the various actors here.
Blair has two leagacies: Iraq and knitting the UK inextricably into the EU without troubling the people to get their permission. He's still happy with the outcome of at least one of those.
Our membership of the EU has been largely a Tory project, from Macmillan to Heath to Thatcher to Major.
The part people object to starts with Maastrict and up to Lisbon. So shared blame.
And indeed Brexit. It seems inevitable that we will remain now
Err... no. It is inevitable that we crash out with No Deal.
No Deal is the default position. If we run out of time, or govts or referenda then we get No Deal.
Brexit is still on for March 29th
Exactly. And with a Corbyn government. An utter disaster for the country.
Time to start buying dry goods..... has your Cumbrian hideaway got a large pantry? Fish will be a good addition to your diet and all the cockles you can eat
It does - and quite a lot of dried goods stored there already.
I cannot begin to tell you how incensed I am at the utter stupidity and frivolity and lack of seriousness of those playing games with the country's future right now.
I have not read the proposed deal and don't intend to. But from what I have read it seems to be broadly sensible given the parameters in which the government had to work. It is likely to be the best the EU will offer.
I would prefer to Remain given what I have seen of our politicians over the last two and a half years. Frankly, I am beginning to think that full-on membership (euro / Schengen / etc) may be best than the nit-picking tactical nonsense that has been going on for the last 40 years.
But if a Remain option is not available then better this deal than No Deal. And better that than chaos and a Corbyn government, whose default instincts I do not trust one little bit.
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
I do love the combination of, essentially, 'we cannot trust the EU and compromise is appeasement' and 'oh we will get a better deal from the eu no problem,
By the way we absolutely need to scotch this nonsense (repeated by the useless idiot Cable) that there only two alternatives: No Deal or a 2nd Referendum.
No. No. No.
There's a third, much better, option. A better deal.
Now that is a wonderful idea, if only the government had thought of it.
By the way we absolutely need to scotch this nonsense (repeated by the useless idiot Cable) that there only two alternatives: No Deal or a 2nd Referendum.
No. No. No.
There's a third, much better, option. A better deal.
Ok. You have (maybe) a month to negotiate it, because it takes time to get it through both the EU and UK systems before March 29th.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
The curious thing is the Brexiteers have got all hung up on the withdrawal agreement, but the actual draft declaration on the future relationship - which is after all what matters - looks rather good, better that I expected. Of course the devil will be in the detail, but it's encouraging, or would be if Brexiteers weren't hell-bent on trying to ensure Brexit is either a total disaster or never happens.
I wonder what Barnier and Blair are thinking at this moment? Yesterday they were smugly thinking the Establishment had hoodwinked the British voters.... Now? Not so much maybe......
Blair wants the deal to fail.
This idea that just because Leavers hate the deal, Remainers must love it is very weird, MM. I think the sooner you disabuse yourself of it the sooner you'll start understanding what's actually motivating the various actors here.
Blair has two leagacies: Iraq and knitting the UK inextricably into the EU without troubling the people to get their permission. He's still happy with the outcome of at least one of those.
Yes, he's an utter prick and the level of delusion he displays every time he thinks he can still sway public opinion borders on insanity.
The point remains though, hard Remainers want to Remain. Or if they can't get it, they want a soft Brexit, with permanent CU+SM membership. They are hardly dancing on the tables about "well the EU might make it hard for us to leave the CU", even if that's (rightly) made hard Leavers very unhappy. It's a classic May worst-of-both-worlds solution.
By the way we absolutely need to scotch this nonsense (repeated by the useless idiot Cable) that there only two alternatives: No Deal or a 2nd Referendum.
No. No. No.
There's a third, much better, option. A better deal.
That depends on the EU seeing it is better to make some concessions than stick with what is on the table and suffer Hard Brexit. With a side order of Fuck-me-we-weren't-prepared-for-that!
What is better for the EU - a deal where the UK can escape after 5 years, or instant chaos?
By the way we absolutely need to scotch this nonsense (repeated by the useless idiot Cable) that there only two alternatives: No Deal or a 2nd Referendum.
No. No. No.
There's a third, much better, option. A better deal.
"So, it all fails because we 'can't trust Europe'? Sorry mate, you're rationalising. "
I'm afraid so. You can trust the Labour party to put party first, as do the Tories. I keep harking back to the famous scene in the 'The Godfather' when I think of the EU. "Tell Mrs May, it's not personal, it's strictly business."
Why would the EU allow us to exit at our time of choosing and expect the other countries to accept us leaving and cherry-picking. Mrs May is either a naïve fool or the wisest person in Christendom. I fear the former.
Many people have pointed out that you can't pick and choose the benefits of a club, that's what Leavers wanted and it's still Labour Party policy.
And indeed Brexit. It seems inevitable that we will remain now
Err... no. It is inevitable that we crash out with No Deal.
No Deal is the default position. If we run out of time, or govts or referenda then we get No Deal.
Brexit is still on for March 29th
Exactly. And with a Corbyn government. An utter disaster for the country.
Time to start buying dry goods..... has your Cumbrian hideaway got a large pantry? Fish will be a good addition to your diet and all the cockles you can eat
It does - and quite a lot of dried goods stored there already.
I cannot begin to tell you how incensed I am at the utter stupidity and frivolity and lack of seriousness of those playing games with the country's future right now.
I have not read the proposed deal and don't intend to. But from what I have read it seems to be broadly sensible given the parameters in which the government had to work. It is likely to be the best the EU will offer.
I would prefer to Remain given what I have seen of our politicians over the last two and a half years. Frankly, I am beginning to think that full-on membership (euro / Schengen / etc) may be best than the nit-picking tactical nonsense that has been going on for the last 40 years.
But if a Remain option is not available then better this deal than No Deal. And better that than chaos and a Corbyn government, whose default instincts I do not trust one little bit.
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
But what was the alternative? Stay in the EU forever in a direction the majority don't want? or something else?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
There was a narrow window for the Conservatives to rescue something from the disaster of Brexit by getting behind this deal. Tim Montgomerie, of all people, saw that. These resigning ministers have been unbelievably foolish.
Turns out they actually believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. I confess to being surprised.
Brexit is collapsing on its internal contradictions. Leavers expended all their energy in working out what they were against without ever trying to work out what they were for.
"Brexit has cost you your strength! Victory has defeatef you!"
Historians are going to have so much fun, trying to decipher exactly what it was made May so unique and special.
The only politician in my lifetime who every achieved the masterful political trait of pleasing none of the people, none of the time.
And yet Brady STILL doesn’t have the letters.
They don’t like her, they don’t agree with her, they think she’s damaging the country (by agreeing a deal they believe damages the country) but they won’t get rid of her. It’s fascinating.
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
But what was the alternative? Stay in the EU forever in a direction the majority don't want? or something else?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
Agree a national position then declare A50, negotiate from WTO to an eventual settlement
And indeed Brexit. It seems inevitable that we will remain now
Err... no. It is inevitable that we crash out with No Deal.
No Deal is the default position. If we run out of time, or govts or referenda then we get No Deal.
Brexit is still on for March 29th
Exactly. And with a Corbyn government. An utter disaster for the country.
Time to start buying dry goods..... has your Cumbrian hideaway got a large pantry? Fish will be a good addition to your diet and all the cockles you can eat
It does - and quite a lot of dried goods stored there already.
I cannot begin to tell you how incensed I am at the utter stupidity and frivolity and lack of seriousness of those playing games with the country's future right now.
I have not read the proposed deal and don't intend to. But from what I have read it seems to be broadly sensible given the parameters in which the government had to work. It is likely to be the best the EU will offer.
I would prefer to Remain given what I have seen of our politicians over the last two and a half years. Frankly, I am beginning to think that full-on membership (euro / Schengen / etc) may be best than the nit-picking tactical nonsense that has been going on for the last 40 years.
But if a Remain option is not available then better this deal than No Deal. And better that than chaos and a Corbyn government, whose default instincts I do not trust one little bit.
The British state is in danger of self-destructing. This is the most serious political crisis to hit any major western country since 1945, only the Algerian crisis in France in the late 1950s comes close in terms of national trauma.
And indeed Brexit. It seems inevitable that we will remain now
Err... no. It is inevitable that we crash out with No Deal.
No Deal is the default position. If we run out of time, or govts or referenda then we get No Deal.
Brexit is still on for March 29th
Exactly. And with a Corbyn government. An utter disaster for the country.
Time to start buying dry goods..... has your Cumbrian hideaway got a large pantry? Fish will be a good addition to your diet and all the cockles you can eat
It does - and quite a lot of dried goods stored there already.
I cannot begin to tell you how incensed I am at the utter stupidity and frivolity and lack of seriousness of those playing games with the country's future right now.
I have not read the proposed deal and don't intend to. But from what I have read it seems to be broadly sensible given the parameters in which the government had to work. It is likely to be the best the EU will offer.
I would prefer to Remain given what I have seen of our politicians over the last two and a half years. Frankly, I am beginning to think that full-on membership (euro / Schengen / etc) may be best than the nit-picking tactical nonsense that has been going on for the last 40 years.
But if a Remain option is not available then better this deal than No Deal. And better that than chaos and a Corbyn government, whose default instincts I do not trust one little bit.
I've not been this depressed in a long time. The timing of resignations when shape of if not precise details of the deal was long known, and labour prioritising a GE above all else, make clear how much partisan game playing is still going on.
There are good reasons to vote down a bad deal but they are all mostly pushing dishonest options on the simplicity of those options. It's infuriating.
I'm off to take an alcoholic beveridge for the first time in over a decade. Pleasant day all.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
The curious thing is the Brexiteers have got all hung up on the withdrawal agreement, but the actual draft declaration on the future relationship - which is after all what matters - looks rather good, better that I expected. Of course the devil will be in the detail, but it's encouraging, or would be if Brexiteers weren't hell-bent on trying to ensure Brexit is either a total disaster or never happens.
Well, this is why the sequencing mattered. I don't think they have much belief that the EU will negotiate a FTA (and all the rest) in good faith.
Historians are going to have so much fun, trying to decipher exactly what it was made May so unique and special.
The only politician in my lifetime who every achieved the masterful political trait of pleasing none of the people, none of the time.
And yet Brady STILL doesn’t have the letters.
They don’t like her, they don’t agree with her, they think she’s damaging the country (by agreeing a deal they believe damages the country) but they won’t get rid of her. It’s fascinating.
We don't know that. If he does, he'll contact everyone to check if they want to withdraw and schedule a statement. He might be doing the due diligence right now, for all we know. if May doesn't either make a massive hail mary gambit, or resign, I think a VONC will quickly become inevitable.
Also, we still don't know if the DUP's C&S supply deal with May is still extant. They haven't said.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
.
You don't go into a negotiation with that attitude.
Listen, it doesn't suit the EU for us to walk away with no deal. We can bargain with a better leader at the helm. We can be much much tougher with them on key issues.
Historians are going to have so much fun, trying to decipher exactly what it was made May so unique and special.
The only politician in my lifetime who every achieved the masterful political trait of pleasing none of the people, none of the time.
And yet Brady STILL doesn’t have the letters.
They don’t like her, they don’t agree with her, they think she’s damaging the country (by agreeing a deal they believe damages the country) but they won’t get rid of her. It’s fascinating.
It'd be counterproductive to get letters in if they think she'll survive the vote.
And indeed Brexit. It seems inevitable that we will remain now
Err... no. It is inevitable that we crash out with No Deal.
No Deal is the default position. If we run out of time, or govts or referenda then we get No Deal.
Brexit is still on for March 29th
Exactly. And with a Corbyn government. An utter disaster for the country.
Time to start buying dry goods..... has your Cumbrian hideaway got a large pantry? Fish will be a good addition to your diet and all the cockles you can eat
It does - and quite a lot of dried goods stored there already.
I cannot begin to tell you how incensed I am at the utter stupidity and frivolity and lack of seriousness of those playing games with the country's future right now.
I have not read the proposed deal and don't intend to. But from what I have read it seems to be broadly sensible given the parameters in which the government had to work. It is likely to be the best the EU will offer.
I would prefer to Remain given what I have seen of our politicians over the last two and a half years. Frankly, I am beginning to think that full-on membership (euro / Schengen / etc) may be best than the nit-picking tactical nonsense that has been going on for the last 40 years.
But if a Remain option is not available then better this deal than No Deal. And better that than chaos and a Corbyn government, whose default instincts I do not trust one little bit.
The British state is in danger of self-destructing. This is the most serious political crisis to hit any major western country since 1945, only the Algerian crisis in France in the late 1950s comes close in terms of national trauma.
it s serious for the Conservatives and they might well now split, the country will go happily on as it always does
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
The curious thing is the Brexiteers have got all hung up on the withdrawal agreement, but the actual draft declaration on the future relationship - which is after all what matters - looks rather good, better that I expected. Of course the devil will be in the detail, but it's encouraging, or would be if Brexiteers weren't hell-bent on trying to ensure Brexit is either a total disaster or never happens.
I have been very critical of May but she appears to have extracted a certain degree of cakeism from the EU in splitting elements of the single market from Freedom of Movement. No-one is noticing, though.
I think this can only be because they have wanted no deal all along, and playing along with negotiations to them say they aren't good enough, we seen as the surest path to no deal compared to arguing for it openly.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
.
You don't go into a negotiation with that attitude.
Listen, it doesn't suit the EU for us to walk away with no deal. We can bargain with a better leader at the helm. We can be much much tougher with them on key issues.
Haven't they been fighting from within all along? And this is the outcome. Nothing's going to change without Leavers taking back control from Remainer May and Olly Robbins.
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
But what was the alternative? Stay in the EU forever in a direction the majority don't want? or something else?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
Agree a national position then declare A50, negotiate from WTO to an eventual settlement
Well I would agree with that and have absolutely no idea why they didn't do it.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
The curious thing is the Brexiteers have got all hung up on the withdrawal agreement, but the actual draft declaration on the future relationship - which is after all what matters - looks rather good, better that I expected. Of course the devil will be in the detail, but it's encouraging, or would be if Brexiteers weren't hell-bent on trying to ensure Brexit is either a total disaster or never happens.
Well, this is why the sequencing mattered. I don't think they have much belief that the EU will negotiate a FTA (and all the rest) in good faith.
Agreeing to the EU sequencing was extremely unfortunate, but I don't know that there was any choice.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
The curious thing is the Brexiteers have got all hung up on the withdrawal agreement, but the actual draft declaration on the future relationship - which is after all what matters - looks rather good, better that I expected. Of course the devil will be in the detail, but it's encouraging, or would be if Brexiteers weren't hell-bent on trying to ensure Brexit is either a total disaster or never happens.
Historians are going to have so much fun, trying to decipher exactly what it was made May so unique and special.
The only politician in my lifetime who every achieved the masterful political trait of pleasing none of the people, none of the time.
And yet Brady STILL doesn’t have the letters.
They don’t like her, they don’t agree with her, they think she’s damaging the country (by agreeing a deal they believe damages the country) but they won’t get rid of her. It’s fascinating.
Firstly, what is it like living next door to Spreadsheet Phil?
Secondly, do we know the number of letters? He has go to each scribe and confirm they want the letter to be used. This gives him the facility to manipulate the number of useable ones with the application of some pressure.
Haven't they been fighting from within all along? And this is the outcome. Nothing's going to change without Leavers taking back control from Remainer May and Olly Robbins.
We're wargaming it in my office. My colleague (very anti Labour, anti Brexit would probably switch to remain now. He also thinks the Tories are going to get slaughtered if we do remain in a second ref. I don't think he's wrong.
We're wargaming it in my office. My colleague (very anti Labour, anti Brexit would probably switch to remain now. He also thinks the Tories are going to get slaughtered if we do remain in a second ref. I don't think he's wrong.
1. is not going to get past the EU so you might as well take it off the list. Why do so many people think that the world revolves around the UK? The UK can't just "go back" to the EU and ask for this, that or the other.
Well we can go back and ask. Won't get it though.
.
You don't go into a negotiation with that attitude.
Listen, it doesn't suit the EU for us to walk away with no deal. We can bargain with a better leader at the helm. We can be much much tougher with them on key issues.
And we'd win.
Unbelievable! Still some people cling to the myth that 'they need us more than we need them'.
A No Deal WTO crash-out, would hurt the EU... but not nearly as much as allowing the UK to continue to have the benefits of membership without the obligations. Nor would No Deal hurt the EU anything like as much as it will hurt the UK.
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
But what was the alternative? Stay in the EU forever in a direction the majority don't want? or something else?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
Who is 'we' ?
And that's the issue: 'we' as a nation are totally split wrt the EU. There are those who want to remain, the Eurosceptcis who quite like the idea but thing it's going a bit far, and the Europhobes. In between are a whole gamut of opinions and views, from xernophobic throw-out-the-furriners thugs to the join-the-Euro happy loons.
Even if you push and squeeze into various groups, there is not a majority for any one option, and too many people believe strongly that *their* view is the right one, and hence compromise is impossible.
The issue was that leave, in order to win, had to promise inconsistent things. And when they won, leavers saw *their* promise as the one that had to be delivered, even if it was different to another leavers'.
May's deal is a compromise. It may or may not be a messy one, but it is about the only compromise possible. Sadly, too many people are unwilling to compromise.
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
But what was the alternative? Stay in the EU forever in a direction the majority don't want? or something else?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
Agree a national position then declare A50, negotiate from WTO to an eventual settlement
Another leaver sharing their infinite wisdom with us ...
Tell me, how the fuyck do we agree a 'national position' given the lies of the leave campaign?
The Brexiter line: it's always some else's fault. It's the EU's fault. It's May's fault. It's not my fault.
But it is. Anyone who voted for leave owns this, and owns the consequences.
Well done for completely ignoring my point.
Your 'point' wasn't a point. It was a pathetic blame-shifting exercise (and ignored the fact we'd had a previous referendum).
So how should we have left the EU then?
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
For the record, I'm not a fan of the EU; I could live with it as it is, but do not like the direction it is heading in. I was going to vote leave, but the sheer inconsistencies and tone of the leave campaigns made me vote for the lesser evil of remain.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
But what was the alternative? Stay in the EU forever in a direction the majority don't want? or something else?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
Agree a national position then declare A50, negotiate from WTO to an eventual settlement
Well I would agree with that and have absolutely no idea why they didn't do it.
I have been very critical of May but she appears to have extracted a certain degree of cakeism from the EU in splitting elements of the single market from Freedom of Movement. No-one is noticing, though.
That's the irony: after all this, it's a really good deal. The divorce bill a fraction of what it could have been, too.
The fantasists don't care though, whether Mogglodytes dreaming of the 1950s, or Corbynistas of their Venezuelan utopia. Both happy with a crash exit.
Comments
never a dull moment...
And the previous referendum wasn't for what the EU turned into. Geez some people really are EU fanatics.
Crisis over !
Where is he?
1. A much much better deal for Britain
or
2. No Deal exit
or
3. A second referendum
A 12 month delay would allow time to sort out all three possibilities, to have them debated correctly in the House as genuine options and then to be voted upon.
I am clearly over excited
He's a beauty.
If your counterpart in negotiations cannot make an agreement stick then negotiations are pointless.
You might as well have utopia as an option.
Does he fall from skies above?
May has probably lost her two best looking Cabinet ministers today.
But your username does perhaps end up giving you such thoughts.
A tumultuous day already and it's not even noon.
I'm drawn to the parallels of March 2003 when Blair, operating, it has to be said, from a vastly more advantageous Parliamentary position than May, had to get Parliament to agree to British involvement in the Iraq invasion.
His own Party was split from stem to stern and he had lost Cabinet Ministers, primarily, and May hasn't yet lost one of the big three, Robin Cook. The Opposition was, however, led by a man few envisaged as ever becoming PM who was, if anything, more supportive of the Government position than Blair himself.
In the end, IDS led most of the Conservative Parliamentary Party (with 12 or 13 honourable exceptions) into the lobby with Blair and 250 Labour MPs and Blair won the day comfortably relying on Opposition support just as Heath had in the early 70s and May might in the days to come.
After Iraq, it was never the same for Blair I'd argue. Yes, he won in 2005 but the majority was slashed by 100 and history hasn't been kind. Heath staggered on until his demise at the hands of his own indecisiveness and Joe Gormley in early 74.
As for Iraq itself, opinion is mixed at best. The removal of Saddam wasn't the end of it and much of where we are today stems from the events of 2003 (and indeed 2001).
The only hope I can see is May getting the Deal through and then retiring next spring but where is the unifying figure in the Conservative Party and around what are they supposed to be unifying - making a Deal work to which many are vehemently opposed? The Referendum was supposed, as I understood it, to draw a line under Conservative internal divisions over Europe - today suggests that hasn't quite worked out as planned.
"So, it all fails because we 'can't trust Europe'?
Sorry mate, you're rationalising. "
I'm afraid so. You can trust the Labour party to put party first, as do the Tories. I keep harking back to the famous scene in the 'The Godfather' when I think of the EU. "Tell Mrs May, it's not personal, it's strictly business."
Why would the EU allow us to exit at our time of choosing and expect the other countries to accept us leaving and cherry-picking. Mrs May is either a naïve fool or the wisest person in Christendom. I fear the former.
No. No. No.
There's a third, much better, option. A better deal.
Give her credit for that. My eyes would've glazed over on page 1.
I cannot begin to tell you how incensed I am at the utter stupidity and frivolity and lack of seriousness of those playing games with the country's future right now.
I have not read the proposed deal and don't intend to. But from what I have read it seems to be broadly sensible given the parameters in which the government had to work. It is likely to be the best the EU will offer.
I would prefer to Remain given what I have seen of our politicians over the last two and a half years. Frankly, I am beginning to think that full-on membership (euro / Schengen / etc) may be best than the nit-picking tactical nonsense that has been going on for the last 40 years.
But if a Remain option is not available then better this deal than No Deal. And better that than chaos and a Corbyn government, whose default instincts I do not trust one little bit.
If that makes me an 'EU fanatic', so be it.
I could respond in kind, but as you're a new poster I'll let you off gently.
trololololo
“She clearly doesn’t listen”
Some bridge burning going on.....
The curious thing is the Brexiteers have got all hung up on the withdrawal agreement, but the actual draft declaration on the future relationship - which is after all what matters - looks rather good, better that I expected. Of course the devil will be in the detail, but it's encouraging, or would be if Brexiteers weren't hell-bent on trying to ensure Brexit is either a total disaster or never happens.
The point remains though, hard Remainers want to Remain. Or if they can't get it, they want a soft Brexit, with permanent CU+SM membership. They are hardly dancing on the tables about "well the EU might make it hard for us to leave the CU", even if that's (rightly) made hard Leavers very unhappy. It's a classic May worst-of-both-worlds solution.
The only politician in my lifetime who every achieved the masterful political trait of pleasing none of the people, none of the time.
What is better for the EU - a deal where the UK can escape after 5 years, or instant chaos?
I'm honestly struggling to see what the best thing we should have done is.
They don’t like her, they don’t agree with her, they think she’s damaging the country (by agreeing a deal they believe damages the country) but they won’t get rid of her. It’s fascinating.
Does Boris have a basement?
There are good reasons to vote down a bad deal but they are all mostly pushing dishonest options on the simplicity of those options. It's infuriating.
I'm off to take an alcoholic beveridge for the first time in over a decade. Pleasant day all.
(Gathers all shopping bags and heads for Tesco)
Also, we still don't know if the DUP's C&S supply deal with May is still extant. They haven't said.
Listen, it doesn't suit the EU for us to walk away with no deal. We can bargain with a better leader at the helm. We can be much much tougher with them on key issues.
And we'd win.
I think this can only be because they have wanted no deal all along, and playing along with negotiations to them say they aren't good enough, we seen as the surest path to no deal compared to arguing for it openly.
Secondly, do we know the number of letters? He has go to each scribe and confirm they want the letter to be used. This gives him the facility to manipulate the number of useable ones with the application of some pressure.
It will never catch on.
We need a major shock at the moment. It's the only thing the Leave voters will notice.
A No Deal WTO crash-out, would hurt the EU... but not nearly as much as allowing the UK to continue to have the benefits of membership without the obligations. Nor would No Deal hurt the EU anything like as much as it will hurt the UK.
And that's the issue: 'we' as a nation are totally split wrt the EU. There are those who want to remain, the Eurosceptcis who quite like the idea but thing it's going a bit far, and the Europhobes. In between are a whole gamut of opinions and views, from xernophobic throw-out-the-furriners thugs to the join-the-Euro happy loons.
Even if you push and squeeze into various groups, there is not a majority for any one option, and too many people believe strongly that *their* view is the right one, and hence compromise is impossible.
The issue was that leave, in order to win, had to promise inconsistent things. And when they won, leavers saw *their* promise as the one that had to be delivered, even if it was different to another leavers'.
May's deal is a compromise. It may or may not be a messy one, but it is about the only compromise possible. Sadly, too many people are unwilling to compromise.
Tell me, how the fuyck do we agree a 'national position' given the lies of the leave campaign?
The fantasists don't care though, whether Mogglodytes dreaming of the 1950s, or Corbynistas of their Venezuelan utopia. Both happy with a crash exit.
Imagine his beady eyes being all sad as he realizes he may have missed the optimal resignation window.