I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
'My point is that at age 18 you've made an overall extremely n'egative net contribution to the treasury if you were born and schooled here, versus if you just moved here. I was wondering if you thought that should be taken into account in your calculations, and if not why not?
No - because a country owes primary loyalty to its citizens first (including of course kids) - and then permanent residents who have paid in and then foreign nationals who have just arrived. At least that is how it works in 90 per cent of the world. Most kids have parents who will have paid in over a number of years as opposed to parents arriving from the EU who place their kids in school straight away at a cost of £7k a year to the taxpayer without having paid in.
Post Brexit EU nationals in terms of partner rights will actually have more rights in the UK under the agreed deal as our own citizens as they won't be subject to the £18k limit. Are we the only world nation happy to give its own citizens fewer rights in their own country than foreign nationals?
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
Whilst true, it's pointless whatifery.
The Conservatives have fucked themselves up: or more accurately, the Brexiteer loons and their moderate winnet's have.
And in the process, they're fucking up the country in such a way that, when he gets in, Corbyn can do all sorts of damage and blame it on the Conservatives.
I feel so sorry for you and the reasonable Conservatives on this board. I do wonder if the Conservative Party will survive this.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I feel so sorry for you and the reasonable Conservatives on this board. I do wonder if the Conservative Party will survive this.
Of course it will - look we picked a duff leader. It happens. We need a better one.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Quite easily.
Indeed. So that we could revel in today's strong and stable example of government
A Labour government reliant on the SNP would have destroyed the country.
Remember the Ed Miliband is such a shit he screwed the world by buggering up the Syria vote for partisan reasons.
Salmond and Sturgeon would have walked all over him.
Oh yeah I forgot your weird view on how everything would somehow be fine if only we'd done some token intervention in Syria. Or how Cameron failing to persuade parliament and Obama lacking conviction is all Ed's fault
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
Your first clear thought of the day. Blame Brown.
Blame Brown for a decision taken by Tony Blair, who was Prime Minister at the time? In any case, Lisbon had already been downgraded by the EU following referendums elsewhere.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Quite easily.
Indeed. So that we could revel in today's strong and stable example of government
A Labour government reliant on the SNP would have destroyed the country.
Remember the Ed Miliband is such a shit he screwed the world by buggering up the Syria vote for partisan reasons.
Salmond and Sturgeon would have walked all over him.
Oh yeah I forgot your weird view on how everything would somehow be fine if only we'd done some token intervention in Syria. Or how Cameron failing to persuade parliament and Obama lacking conviction is all Ed's fault
Ed Miliband told David Cameron that he would support him, so Cameron felt no need to whip his own MPs.
At the last moment Ed Miliband changed his mind, heck even Ed Miliband's Shadow Defence Secretary admitted he should have resigned over Ed Miliband's shitty behaviour.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
'My point is that at age 18 you've made an overall extremely n'egative net contribution to the treasury if you were born and schooled here, versus if you just moved here. I was wondering if you thought that should be taken into account in your calculations, and if not why not?
No - because a country owes primary loyalty to its citizens first (including of course kids) - and then permanent residents who have paid in and then foreign nationals who have just arrived. At least that is how it works in 90 per cent of the world. Most kids have parents who will have paid in over a number of years as opposed to parents arriving from the EU who place their kids in school straight away at a cost of £7k a year to the taxpayer without having paid in.
Post Brexit EU nationals in terms of partner rights will actually have more rights in the UK under the agreed deal as our own citizens as they won't be subject to the £18k limit. Are we the only world nation happy to give its own citizens fewer rights in their own country than foreign nationals?
Sorry I'm confused, is this about contributions or "loyalty"? Or is one perhaps being used as a paper-thin veil over the other?
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
Your first clear thought of the day. Blame Brown.
Blame Brown for a decision taken by Tony Blair, who was Prime Minister at the time? In any case, Lisbon had already been downgraded by the EU following referendums elsewhere.
Leave them alone. The old tunes of blaming Brown are giving them some comfort in their darkest moments. Let them sing themselves into a long deep sleep.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
If the Tories had a scintilla of discipline about them, today could have been made very difficult for Corbyn.
Given May got burnt with the GE gamble last year, I suspect she won't gamble by getting allies to submit a letter to force a vote.
I don't think she needs to any more. Despite the ERG split, I suspect 48 will be reached now. I just hope she gets a bite of lunch and a cup of tea before the 1922 committee call her in.
The people voted for brexit which shows, at the time, that's what the people wanted. The motivation of the pm at the time doesn't erase that 52% of the voting populace wanted some kind of exit and that sort of talk tries to imply no one cares. Clearly they dud given how we voted when given the chance.
Not really.
They voted to stop immigration.
They voted for £350m for the NHS
Brexit solves none of the problems they were concerned about
Which ballot paper did you see? The only one I saw didn't mention the NHS or immigration. It only mentioned leaving the EU. We can spin conjecture about other causes, but that's all it is.
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
One is eternal damnation. the latter could be a huge improvement in the medium to long term with a radical and bold free market goverment.
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Quite easily.
Indeed. So that we could revel in today's strong and stable example of government
A Labour government reliant on the SNP would have destroyed the country.
Remember the Ed Miliband is such a shit he screwed the world by buggering up the Syria vote for partisan reasons.
Salmond and Sturgeon would have walked all over him.
Oh yeah I forgot your weird view on how everything would somehow be fine if only we'd done some token intervention in Syria. Or how Cameron failing to persuade parliament and Obama lacking conviction is all Ed's fault
Ed Miliband told David Cameron that he would support him, so Cameron felt no need to whip his own MPs.
At the last moment Ed Miliband changed his mind, heck even Ed Miliband's Shadow Defence Secretary admitted he should have resigned over Ed Miliband's shitty behaviour.
At which point Cameron said "ah, fuck it, never mind then", which Obama echoed. Clearly none of these people put as much importance on intervention as you
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
One is eternal damnation. the latter could be a huge improvement in the medium to long term with a radical and bold free market goverment.
And, we won't get the latter, because the public will turn to Labour.
@DPJHodges Follow Follow @DPJHodges More Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
@DominicRabb Follow Follow @DominicRabb More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges))) Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
The same point keeps being raised and the same answer by May keeps being given.
She intends to continue her course. She intends to conclude discussions with the EU and then in a couple of weeks come back to the House to be heavily defeated.
She keeps wittering on about the National Interest. But how can it be in the national interest to carry out this course of action? And if you are the EU team why would you bother wasting any time sealing a deal which they know will not pass?
This draft deal will not pass. If she seriously intends to continue knowing it will not pass then it is clearly in the national interest that she is removed from office.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Quite easily.
Indeed. So that we could revel in today's strong and stable example of government
A Labour government reliant on the SNP would have destroyed the country.
Remember the Ed Miliband is such a shit he screwed the world by buggering up the Syria vote for partisan reasons.
Salmond and Sturgeon would have walked all over him.
Oh yeah I forgot your weird view on how everything would somehow be fine if only we'd done some token intervention in Syria. Or how Cameron failing to persuade parliament and Obama lacking conviction is all Ed's fault
Ed Miliband told David Cameron that he would support him, so Cameron felt no need to whip his own MPs.
At the last moment Ed Miliband changed his mind, heck even Ed Miliband's Shadow Defence Secretary admitted he should have resigned over Ed Miliband's shitty behaviour.
At which point Cameron said "ah, fuck it, never mind then", which Obama echoed. Clearly none of these people put as much importance on intervention as you
@DPJHodges Follow Follow @DPJHodges More Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
@DominicRabb Follow Follow @DominicRabb More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges))) Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Instead you will end up with permanent customs union under PM Corbyn
@DPJHodges Follow Follow @DPJHodges More Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
@DominicRabb Follow Follow @DominicRabb More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges))) Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Seems so at the moment. While the DUP and most of the ERG are probably intractable, I wonder how backbench Labour MPs will see things in a week - say after Barnier and co have said "this deal is it", and sterling has dropped 10 cents.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
@DPJHodges Follow Follow @DPJHodges More Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
@DominicRabb Follow Follow @DominicRabb More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges))) Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
If the Tories had a scintilla of discipline about them, today could have been made very difficult for Corbyn.
I suspect the ERG have called this badly wrong, The country simply wants the thing finished and signed. I see no rewards in referendum 2 for them and only bigger downsides. They just dont know when to settle.
Post Brexit EU nationals in terms of partner rights will actually have more rights in the UK under the agreed deal as our own citizens as they won't be subject to the £18k limit. Are we the only world nation happy to give its own citizens fewer rights in their own country than foreign nationals?
One suspects it is preferable to be a foreigner in North Korea
@DPJHodges Follow Follow @DPJHodges More Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
@DominicRabb Follow Follow @DominicRabb More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges))) Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
@DPJHodges Follow Follow @DPJHodges More Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
@DominicRabb Follow Follow @DominicRabb More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges))) Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
Amazing
It's not amazing that @bigjohnowls has fallen for a parody account.
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Well if the Gov't was defeated 313 - 328 (I think that's the number with all Tories in favour, everyone else against); markets would have dropped then the 2nd vote got enough Labour rebels for the vote to pass - or Labour owns "No deal"
There is nothing in law requiring the PM to be a Member of Parliament - indeed all of them spend election campaigns not as an MP. So why just look to the tired members of the green benches.
Possible leaders of the National Government Nigel Farrage Tony Blair Alan Sugar Howling Laud Hope Jane Horrocks (it worked on The Amazing Mrs Pritchard
Eddie Re(d)mayne David Baddiel Annie Loof (Swedish centre party leader) and Someone from Noddle to work out our credit rating.
We can't have David. A Baddiel is what we are trying to avoid.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Quite easily.
Indeed. So that we could revel in today's strong and stable example of government
A Labour government reliant on the SNP would have destroyed the country.
Remember the Ed Miliband is such a shit he screwed the world by buggering up the Syria vote for partisan reasons.
Salmond and Sturgeon would have walked all over him.
Oh yeah I forgot your weird view on how everything would somehow be fine if only we'd done some token intervention in Syria. Or how Cameron failing to persuade parliament and Obama lacking conviction is all Ed's fault
Ed Miliband told David Cameron that he would support him, so Cameron felt no need to whip his own MPs.
At the last moment Ed Miliband changed his mind, heck even Ed Miliband's Shadow Defence Secretary admitted he should have resigned over Ed Miliband's shitty behaviour.
At which point Cameron said "ah, fuck it, never mind then", which Obama echoed. Clearly none of these people put as much importance on intervention as you
Dave respected the will of Parliament.
Typical Labour, never take any responsibility.
I'm happy for Labour to take credit for doing the right thing. More confused by your position, but I guess when you have so few justifications for voting to enable this shambles, you have to cling to what you've got
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
The ERG are making the same mistake the anti-Treaty IRA made in 1922. They should understand this deal does not get them all that they want, but it does get the single most important thing that they want, an exit from the EU., plus it provides a route for them to get all or most of what they want, just over time.
Although if Mrs May survives the rest of the week she should probably refrain from taking the ministerial limo on any tours of the backways of deepest Somerset for the forseeable future.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Seems so at the moment. While the DUP and most of the ERG are probably intractable, I wonder how backbench Labour MPs will see things in a week - say after Barnier and co have said "this deal is it", and sterling has dropped 10 cents.
It will put huge pressure on Corbyn to back a second referendum.
@DPJHodges Follow Follow @DPJHodges More Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
@DominicRabb Follow Follow @DominicRabb More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges))) Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
Amazing
It's not amazing that @bigjohnowls has fallen for a parody account.
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
The ERG are making the same mistake the anti-Treaty IRA made in 1922. They should understand this deal does not get them all that they want, but it does get the single most important thing that they want, an exit from the EU., plus it provides a route for them to get all or most of what they want, just over time.
Although if Mrs May survives the rest of the week she should probably refrain from taking the ministerial limo on any tours of the backways of deepest Somerset for the forseeable future.
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Well if the Gov't was defeated 313 - 328 (I think that's the number with all Tories in favour, everyone else against); markets would have dropped then the 2nd vote got enough Labour rebels for the vote to pass - or Labour owns "No deal"
Nah. People blame the government when shit happens. We know this from the ERM, Iraq, the Winter of Discontent, the 3-day week, Suez and the 2008 crash. All complex things, all with many causes, but if you are there when the music stops, you carry the can.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Seems so at the moment. While the DUP and most of the ERG are probably intractable, I wonder how backbench Labour MPs will see things in a week - say after Barnier and co have said "this deal is it", and sterling has dropped 10 cents.
It will put huge pressure on Corbyn to back a second referendum.
We're still at the Brexiteer and Remainer ultras' denial and anger stages. Let's see how they feel in a week or two.
The same point keeps being raised and the same answer by May keeps being given.
She intends to continue her course. She intends to conclude discussions with the EU and then in a couple of weeks come back to the House to be heavily defeated.
She keeps wittering on about the National Interest. But how can it be in the national interest to carry out this course of action? And if you are the EU team why would you bother wasting any time sealing a deal which they know will not pass?
This draft deal will not pass. If she seriously intends to continue knowing it will not pass then it is clearly in the national interest that she is removed from office.
To do what? To bring another course, another negotiation that has an equal chance of failing? This is the most direct route to the conclusion of all this, everything else just likely loops back to this moment in a few months time, whoever is on the government benches.
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
The ERG are making the same mistake the anti-Treaty IRA made in 1922. They should understand this deal does not get them all that they want, but it does get the single most important thing that they want, an exit from the EU., plus it provides a route for them to get all or most of what they want, just over time.
Although if Mrs May survives the rest of the week she should probably refrain from taking the ministerial limo on any tours of the backways of deepest Somerset for the forseeable future.
Deep down, do they even want to leave the EU?
Probably not. That may well have been the biggest reason Brexit has failed.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I feel so sorry for you and the reasonable Conservatives on this board. I do wonder if the Conservative Party will survive this.
Of course it will - look we picked a duff leader. It happens. We need a better one.
It has survived a great many problems over the last couple of centuries. But it may not survive this: it is riven.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
If the Tories had a scintilla of discipline about them, today could have been made very difficult for Corbyn.
I suspect the ERG have called this badly wrong, The country simply wants the thing finished and signed. I see no rewards in referendum 2 for them and only bigger downsides. They just dont know when to settle.
After up to 40 years of saying no to everything to do with Europe, they're finding it impossibly uncomfortable to have to switch to support, agreeing and dealing mode. And they look like risking losing everything they thought they'd won.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
If the Tories had a scintilla of discipline about them, today could have been made very difficult for Corbyn.
I suspect the ERG have called this badly wrong, The country simply wants the thing finished and signed. I see rewarss in referendum 2 for them and only bigger downsides. They just dont know when to settle.
But the underlying concern is that it is NEVER finished. May's Hotel California Brexit was not going to be accepted. The negotiators should have made that clear, shuffled their papers and gone home to prepare for No Deal Brexit if the EU wouldn't accept it. Inept negotiation has got us to this point. Under a mandate micro-managed by May.
I've long said I wanted a deal - and that No Deal would represent the ultimate fuck-up by both sides. A deal that gives no certainty that we can 100% have that departure in our own hands is that ultimate fuck-up. Not recognising it from day one is why May should not be in the job. She has failed everybody, pleased nobody.
Has the ERG concluded its research into Europe yet ?
Yes. They conclude they don't like it, and can it just jolly well f*ck off.
Mogg and Bozza when on the Eton geography field trip to Calais in 1978. The tried to buy bangers and flick knife comb, but they were confiscated. It was that moment that the research was done and policy was set.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Seems so at the moment. While the DUP and most of the ERG are probably intractable, I wonder how backbench Labour MPs will see things in a week - say after Barnier and co have said "this deal is it", and sterling has dropped 10 cents.
It will put huge pressure on Corbyn to back a second referendum.
We're still at the Brexiteer and Remainer ultras' denial and anger stages. Let's see how they feel in a week or two.
Deal or no deal will still be a false choice in a week or two, so focusing on those two options can only drive support for abandoning Brexit altogether.
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
If the Tories had a scintilla of discipline about them, today could have been made very difficult for Corbyn.
I suspect the ERG have called this badly wrong, The country simply wants the thing finished and signed. I see no rewards in referendum 2 for them and only bigger downsides. They just dont know when to settle.
If May wins a No Confidence vote she is unstoppable for a year, if she loses the Deal vote she can then call an EU referendum in January or February on Deal No Deal or Remain which would pass the Commons most likely, Remain would probably win and the ERG end up with nothing
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
The ERG are making the same mistake the anti-Treaty IRA made in 1922. They should understand this deal does not get them all that they want, but it does get the single most important thing that they want, an exit from the EU., plus it provides a route for them to get all or most of what they want, just over time.
Although if Mrs May survives the rest of the week she should probably refrain from taking the ministerial limo on any tours of the backways of deepest Somerset for the forseeable future.
Deep down, do they even want to leave the EU?
I have wondered this myself. We need a psychologist to give us the answer.
I think that’s one profession we don’t have on PB. Think of all the material they’d have to work with...
David Davis thought we’d be negotiating Brexit with Berlin. Dominic Raab did not know Britain is an island off the coast of France. Can you imagine them actually running the country?
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
If the Tories had a scintilla of discipline about them, today could have been made very difficult for Corbyn.
I suspect the ERG have called this badly wrong, The country simply wants the thing finished and signed. I see no rewards in referendum 2 for them and only bigger downsides. They just dont know when to settle.
After up to 40 years of saying no to everything to do with Europe, they're finding it impossibly uncomfortable to have to switch to support, agreeing and dealing mode. And they look like risking losing everything they thought they'd won.
If they held their noses and voted yes, they be looking at one of their own replacing May next year and a shot at getting re elected.
Now theyve voted to hand Labout the next election and to sit in irrlevance for a decade.
Probably just best to wind up the Tories and get a decent opposition in place
I honestly don't know how people like TSE justify voting for Cameron and his referendum over Miliband in 2015.
Cameron certainly bears the heaviest burden of guilt for the current debacle. May inherited an almost impossible situation; however she took every opportunity to make it worse.
All of this could have been avoided if Labour had honoured their commitment to hold a referendum on Lisbon.
If Blair hadn't dicked about the voting system for partisan reasons for European elections UKIP would have never surged.
I love the way the Tories try to palm this off onto anyone else, Corbyn, Blair, The EU, UKIP, Bobby Davro, H from Steps, Pope Gregory IX, Morph.
I love the way Labour is a responsibility-free zone.....
If the Tories had a scintilla of discipline about them, today could have been made very difficult for Corbyn.
I suspect the ERG have called this badly wrong, The country simply wants the thing finished and signed. I see no rewards in referendum 2 for them and only bigger downsides. They just dont know when to settle.
If May wins a No Confidence vote she is unstoppable for a year, if she loses the Deal vote she can then call an EU referendum in January or February on Deal No Deal or Remain which would pass the Commons most likely, Remain would probably win and the ERG end up with nothing
which ever way you look at it the Tories are unmanageable
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
To be fair to most leavers on this board they seem far more capable of compromise than the diehards in the ERG. The happiest leavers on this board are the Labourites who are cock a hoop with the Gov't being in a proper mess. The ERG is more Flash and Thompson rather than Mortimer and Royale.
Agreed. I don't like Remain, and I don't like a car crash Brexit. But, it looks as if we'll get one of them.
The ERG are making the same mistake the anti-Treaty IRA made in 1922. They should understand this deal does not get them all that they want, but it does get the single most important thing that they want, an exit from the EU., plus it provides a route for them to get all or most of what they want, just over time.
Although if Mrs May survives the rest of the week she should probably refrain from taking the ministerial limo on any tours of the backways of deepest Somerset for the forseeable future.
Deep down, do they even want to leave the EU?
I have wondered this myself. We need a psychologist to give us the answer.
I think that’s one profession we don’t have on PB. Think of all the material they’d have to work with...
"There's enough material there for an entire conference."
Remember when you said only a Leave win would finally unite the Tory party.
The Leave win was usurped by Remainer May who seeks to thwart us leaving in practice and not in name only.
A real Leave would eventually finally unite the Tory party. But a real Leave isn't what May has sought.
Leavers like Royal Blue and Mortimer support this deal, it is the headbangers who ruining this.
As I predicted they would.
With the DUP pissed off, there is no deal - Tory headbangers or no. Not one Labour MP put their hand up to say they would support it. That is a stone dead deal.
Well if the Gov't was defeated 313 - 328 (I think that's the number with all Tories in favour, everyone else against); markets would have dropped then the 2nd vote got enough Labour rebels for the vote to pass - or Labour owns "No deal"
Nah. People blame the government when shit happens. We know this from the ERM, Iraq, the Winter of Discontent, the 3-day week, Suez and the 2008 crash. All complex things, all with many causes, but if you are there when the music stops, you carry the can.
The difference is, in none of those cases were the governing party following the instructions of the voters. Brexit is what they were told to do it.
Where they will get rightly punished is in doing it as if they didn't want ot have to do as they were instructed. That is what has come through crystal clear.
May knew what was required of her when she threw her hat in the ring. A never-ending, never quite out, do as the EU tells you in the meantime is a fundamental failure to follow instructions. Even if she thought she was doing her best for her country, who she felt had been stupid in giving her that instruction in the first place.
Most PBers seem to think May will/would win a VONC. Betfair disagrees.
Tory MPs may conclude that May's determination to stick with a deal that many of them don't like and most of them believe can't get through parliament, means that they need a new leader to have a go?
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If May loses, it’s a Tory. If she narrowly wins she’ll go next year, and then it’s a Tory.
Only Jezza with an early GE.
I think we will likely end up Remaining in the EU, but the public will be unhappier and more divided than ever.
https://twitter.com/michaelsavage/status/1063055293674938370
'My point is that at age 18 you've made an overall extremely n'egative net contribution to the treasury if you were born and schooled here, versus if you just moved here. I was wondering if you thought that should be taken into account in your calculations, and if not why not?
No - because a country owes primary loyalty to its citizens first (including of course kids) - and then permanent residents who have paid in and then foreign nationals who have just arrived. At least that is how it works in 90 per cent of the world. Most kids have parents who will have paid in over a number of years as opposed to parents arriving from the EU who place their kids in school straight away at a cost of £7k a year to the taxpayer without having paid in.
Post Brexit EU nationals in terms of partner rights will actually have more rights in the UK under the agreed deal as our own citizens as they won't be subject to the £18k limit. Are we the only world nation happy to give its own citizens fewer rights in their own country than foreign nationals?
The Conservatives have fucked themselves up: or more accurately, the Brexiteer loons and their moderate winnet's have.
And in the process, they're fucking up the country in such a way that, when he gets in, Corbyn can do all sorts of damage and blame it on the Conservatives.
I feel so sorry for you and the reasonable Conservatives on this board. I do wonder if the Conservative Party will survive this.
At the last moment Ed Miliband changed his mind, heck even Ed Miliband's Shadow Defence Secretary admitted he should have resigned over Ed Miliband's shitty behaviour.
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Whatever the concerns in Cabinet, they were not significant enough for anyone to resign. And on an issue of this magnitude, people would have resigned if the differences were fundamental. Wouldn’t they. Wouldn’t they...?
8:26 PM - 14 Nov 2018
Dominic Raab MP
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More Dominic Raab MP Retweeted (((Dan Hodges)))
Dan I literally told you last week I was resigning, you said you couldn't run the story because of the Corbyn coat story, that's the last time I give you a scoop
She intends to continue her course. She intends to conclude discussions with the EU and then in a couple of weeks come back to the House to be heavily defeated.
She keeps wittering on about the National Interest. But how can it be in the national interest to carry out this course of action? And if you are the EU team why would you bother wasting any time sealing a deal which they know will not pass?
This draft deal will not pass. If she seriously intends to continue knowing it will not pass then it is clearly in the national interest that she is removed from office.
Second even if she lost it I would suggest Davis a more likely caretaker than Raab given he resigned first over Chequers
Typical Labour, never take any responsibility.
May exit this year is now odds on at Betfair! 1.7-1.71.
Although if Mrs May survives the rest of the week she should probably refrain from taking the ministerial limo on any tours of the backways of deepest Somerset for the forseeable future.
I've long said I wanted a deal - and that No Deal would represent the ultimate fuck-up by both sides. A deal that gives no certainty that we can 100% have that departure in our own hands is that ultimate fuck-up. Not recognising it from day one is why May should not be in the job. She has failed everybody, pleased nobody.
"Dilruwan Perera allowed another 41 to be added whereupon he departed, just before Esther McVey, lbw to Leach...."
I think that’s one profession we don’t have on PB. Think of all the material they’d have to work with...
Dominic Raab did not know Britain is an island off the coast of France.
Can you imagine them actually running the country?
Now theyve voted to hand Labout the next election and to sit in irrlevance for a decade.
Probably just best to wind up the Tories and get a decent opposition in place
Where they will get rightly punished is in doing it as if they didn't want ot have to do as they were instructed. That is what has come through crystal clear.
May knew what was required of her when she threw her hat in the ring. A never-ending, never quite out, do as the EU tells you in the meantime is a fundamental failure to follow instructions. Even if she thought she was doing her best for her country, who she felt had been stupid in giving her that instruction in the first place.
Not. The. Person. Needed.
Tory MPs may conclude that May's determination to stick with a deal that many of them don't like and most of them believe can't get through parliament, means that they need a new leader to have a go?