I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
Bizzarely he gets a cheer for banning jihadis from the UK but Rudd got nothing when she attacked Jez on anti-terror legislation...?
In the canvassing I've been doing, there's been a surprisingly high number of people who combine adoration for Corbyn with UKIP-ish views on Muslims. Especially younger people.
The problem with the audience isn't that there aren't Tories in the room but that they have very little to cheer. Rather like the election campaign. Until the end, at least.
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Lol, £10bn peanuts? This is why Labour isn't trusted on the economy.
There's no "money tree", Amber Rudd, but there's a hell of a lot of wealth concentrated at the very top and it's time to tax it!
Er BJO think they pay enough already! Top 1% pay 27% of income tax!! Let's slash benefits (should have put it in the manifesto)!!!
What benefits you thinking of slashing Mr Ave It?
What % of wealth do they have AveIt
What % of NI VAT do they pay
They pay less than their cleaners and brag about it dont they.
I have a lot more wealth than my 20yr old self. I and my wife have earned every penny of it and paid every penny in tax, and are "comfortable". I don't see why my 20yr old self would now want to take chunks of it off me punitively just because I have comparative wealth compared to 30 years ago.
Because rents & house prices have risen very rapidly while wages have comparatively stagnated. There is a gigantic level of generational inequality, and it is those below 30 that are getting utterly screwed, and will continue to get screwed as the rising number of rich pensioners demand their pensions from fewer and fewer taxpayers.
Bizzarely he gets a cheer for banning jihadis from the UK but Rudd got nothing when she attacked Jez on anti-terror legislation...?
In the canvassing I've been doing, there's been a surprisingly high number of people who combine adoration for Corbyn with UKIP-ish views on Muslims. Especially younger people.
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
It's representative of the national mood right now. 60% hate Tories.
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Lol, £10bn peanuts? This is why Labour isn't trusted on the economy.
and that isn't taking into account the cost of nationalising the railways energy and water
Was Tim right about the Manchester bomber being reported five times? What does that actually mean? And if so, why wasn't anything done?
Insofar as the story has come out, it appears concerns were expressed about the guy through various channels, but not using the anti terror hotline. I think the story is that these concerns weren't serious/evidenced enough to have been flagged straight to the top.
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
It's representative of the national mood right now. 60% hate Tories.
No, only fanatics (on both sides) hate political parties.
Caroline Lucas just read the lyrics to a Tracy Chapman song there I think
"Why do the babies starve When there's enough food to feed the world Why when there're so many of us Are there people still alone Why are the missiles called peace keepers When they're aimed to kill Why is a woman still not safe When she's in her home"
Was Tim right about the Manchester bomber being reported five times? What does that actually mean? And if so, why wasn't anything done?
Yes he was. We don't know but MI5 have opened a probe into how the reports were treated. We don't know what was or wasn't done (except we know he wasn't put under major surveillance, of course).
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Lol, £10bn peanuts? This is why Labour isn't trusted on the economy.
It's barely anything, and could very easily be made up by means testing the state pension.
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
It's representative of the national mood right now. 60% hate Tories.
More fundamentally the Tories often make them mistake of confusing the majority power they get from the voting system with having majority support in the country.
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Lol, £10bn peanuts? This is why Labour isn't trusted on the economy.
It's barely anything, and could very easily be made up by means testing the state pension.
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Disagreeing with the Labour platform does not mean I buy everything the Tories are saying. But they are at least being up front that there are difficulties, difficulties that are more complex to deal with than just 'increase spending'. They were prepared to tell their own core support they would lose freebies as a result. I respect that, as they could have kept the triple lock for example.
Had a discussion with a fellow uk immigrant into Spain who wanted to raise the voting age to 21. I said ok but we should then take the vote off 70 year old plus. His answer was well that's ridiculous because us oldies know more about the world and know whats rights for the kids
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Lol, £10bn peanuts? This is why Labour isn't trusted on the economy.
and that isn't taking into account the cost of nationalising the railways energy and water
Or the 90bn over the lifetime of freezing pension age at 66 ( according to ex pensions minister S Webb - he should know). Hey soon we'll be talking serious money not just 10bn here or 90bn there. Still not to worry about 48bn for buying water because they're going to issue "bonds not debt". Ok?
Lucky escape for Jezza in that section. Amber Rudd bottled mentioning the IRA/Hamas, and most viewers don't understand Angry Scouse so Nuttall's outburst will have gone over their heads.
Was Tim right about the Manchester bomber being reported five times? What does that actually mean? And if so, why wasn't anything done?
Too many higher-priority targets? Let that sink in for a moment
I know, scary. But Tim implied it was Muslims reporting him. If that were true, and they were from his Mosque, that should have sounded alarm bells.
What if they have had thousands of reports from Mosques that mostly come to nothing? It's hard for us to comment when we don't know the reality of the situation.
Was Tim right about the Manchester bomber being reported five times? What does that actually mean? And if so, why wasn't anything done?
Too many higher-priority targets? Let that sink in for a moment
I know, scary. But Tim implied it was Muslims reporting him. If that were true, and they were from his Mosque, that should have sounded alarm bells.
It was true. The issue appears to have been to whom they made the reports. At the weekend it was reported that the guy was on the list of 25,000 people with known extremist views but not on the list of the 5,000 with concerns about possible terrorist connections/intentions.
We're the second biggest arms dealer in the world? Ahead of China? Good job us I guess.
Not a good look!
Well, no, selling arms to the Saudis is indefensible apart from a realpolitik 'Look, some bugger's going to do it, might as well be us' kind of way, but no one can say that in a debate.
JC couldn't resist poking the bear there - should've kept it bland
I agree. It didn't help coming off the back of Robertson bringing up Mair and Breivik. It's not a good look saying "look, white people commit mass murder too."
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Lol, £10bn peanuts? This is why Labour isn't trusted on the economy.
It's barely anything, and could very easily be made up by means testing the state pension.
Now that would be brave
Any party that did that would have my vote for life. Nobody has the balls to even start to address the generational inequality in this country.
Poor Tim. A fairly decent, tough set of lines - not a squeak from the audience. They want Corbyn and Corbyn. With a bit of Caroline.
Is Leanne still there?
I think Tim is doing good.
Surely he has much more in common with the Lab programme than the Tories
Tim's doing ok, but he's not getting anywhere near as much love from the audience even when pitching things you'd think they'd like (the left parts of it anyway).
Was Tim right about the Manchester bomber being reported five times? What does that actually mean? And if so, why wasn't anything done?
Too many higher-priority targets? Let that sink in for a moment
I know, scary. But Tim implied it was Muslims reporting him. If that were true, and they were from his Mosque, that should have sounded alarm bells.
It was true. The issue appears to have been to whom they made the reports. At the weekend it was reported that the guy was on the list of 25,000 people with known extremist views but not on the list of the 5,000 with concerns about possible terrorist connections/intentions.
Terrifying.
EDIT: @Gallowgate - true, but I reckon they get more false alarms from concerned neighbours!
Anecdote time: I was at a swanky central London restaurant yesterday (very nice, since you ask). On the table next to us was a group of four men, professionals of some sort, probably in their thirties, enjoying the tasting menu with accompanying flight of wines (£135 a head plus service etc). They were talking about the election, and it was quite revealing. None intended to vote Tory, as far as I could tell. One was being urged by the others to vote Labour; he was thinking of doing so, but was a bit worried about his £750K mortgage. Still, he thought he was being a bit selfish to take that into account.
The lack of even the most vague understanding of what a Corbyn premiership would do to their jobs, taxes, house values, and mortgage costs was absolutely extraordinary; it was an utter disconnect with reality. I fear that Mr £750K mortgage will find out about reality the very hard way if YouGov are right. And these are people who not only must have a hell of a lot to lose, but who, you would have thought, would have a vague understanding of the world.
An interesting anecdote. Am sure this is more common in London (and maybe some of the other cities) than out in the provinces.
Having said that, Richard, here's a counter-argument for you. Not saying I believe it myself, but I thought I'd try it out on you.
Poor Tim. A fairly decent, tough set of lines - not a squeak from the audience. They want Corbyn and Corbyn. With a bit of Caroline.
Is Leanne still there?
I think Tim is doing good.
Surely he has much more in common with the Lab programme than the Tories
Tim's doing ok, but he's not getting anywhere near as much love from the audience even when pitching things you'd think they'd like (the left parts of it anyway).
Hope you have moved back to the LDs. A nice guy has no business voting for the Tories...
You honestly believe that leaving the EU was a mistake, because of the economic value of single market membership to us (rather than because you're a join-the-euro-now, time for an elected EU President and a common treasury etc eurofederalist).
You know that taxes, nationalisations and regulations can be reversed - quite possibly with economic pain and electoral difficulty, but it can be done. You know that house prices are unreliable stores of values, that there are always political threats to them, that sensible folk hedge themselves accordingly. You know that even the gravest recession can be recovered from.
You also know that if Britain leaves the single market, that would be very politically difficult to reverse. With UKIP effectively vanquished, with Britain only just deciding on leaving the political structures of the EU last time round, you know that if Britain could somehow remain in the EEA outside of the more integration-bound structures of Brussels, the arrangement would likely be permanent - almost impossible to imagine an anti-EEA campaign getting the same momentum that the anti-EU movement ultimately developed.
You know that Keir Starmer is not a village idiot. You know that senior bods in the Labour party, and importantly the unions, know the value of the single market.
If this election is your one last shot to prevent permanent economic harm to Britain by leaving the single market, and you're in a good enough position in life to take a short-term pummeling, then perhaps, like Mister Million-Quid-Mortgage Bigshot, you should be voting for Labour.
Now I know you're not gonna buy that, but is it completely irrational? (I don't happen to think many people will be thinking this way, but I am surprised that Labour haven't been deploying Starmer a bit more. I guess they are trying to avoid this being the Brexit Election.)
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
It's representative of the national mood right now. 60% hate Tories.
That doesn't at all explain why the 40% who support them are not clapping anything though. It's bizarre.
We're the second biggest arms dealer in the world? Ahead of China? Good job us I guess.
Not a good look!
Well, no, selling arms to the Saudis is indefensible apart from a realpolitik 'Look, some bugger's going to do it, might as well be us' kind of way, but no one can say that in a debate.
Thousands of well paid, highly skilled manufacturing jobs depend in large part upon those exports. That could be said.
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
It's representative of the national mood right now. 60% hate Tories.
That doesn't at all explain why the 40% who support them are not clapping anything though. It's bizarre.
Easy. Shy in face of raucous self assured and righteous opposition. Think on't.
Labour will stop cutting police/fire/ambulance services at home, and adopt an ethical foreign policy for a safer Britain & world
Rudd wants to cut further.
Labour are promising to increase practically everything (except reversing youth service cuts, for some reason - only that they will stop the cuts) - its 'positive' but unaffordable.
Corbyn well prepared here.
Dont know why you think that.
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Lol, £10bn peanuts? This is why Labour isn't trusted on the economy.
It's barely anything, and could very easily be made up by means testing the state pension.
Now that would be brave
Any party that did that would have my vote for life. Nobody has the balls to even start to address the generational inequality in this country.
Merging tax and NI would be one way to go. Hammond may even be away on his mountainside retreat looking at it right now. You'd probably need to provide some sort of pensioner discount to reflect non entitlement to unemployment benefit but otherwise it would be a big simplification as well as bringing in hard needed £. NI is just tax, after all; once HMRC has it they make no distinction.
Poor Tim. A fairly decent, tough set of lines - not a squeak from the audience. They want Corbyn and Corbyn. With a bit of Caroline.
Is Leanne still there?
I think Tim is doing good.
Surely he has much more in common with the Lab programme than the Tories
Tim's doing ok, but he's not getting anywhere near as much love from the audience even when pitching things you'd think they'd like (the left parts of it anyway).
Hope you have moved back to the LDs. A nice guy has no business voting for the Tories...
There is nothing inherently nice or nasty about a political party, left or right. May is crap, but the Tory plans are more realistic and sensible, and its between her and Corbyn.
Corbyn really passionate about getting the americans to challenge their government to adhere to the paris agreement - is that something people are really concerned about, what the americans do and what we should say to them?
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
It's representative of the national mood right now. 60% hate Tories.
That doesn't at all explain why the 40% who support them are not clapping anything though. It's bizarre.
Not all of that 40% are very enthusiastic about the manifesto or leader.
I think all the Conservative leaning members of the audience were made to dip their hands in a big pot of glue before taking their seats. I think the Conservative posters on here are probably right to feel irked by the audience make up.
It's representative of the national mood right now. 60% hate Tories.
That doesn't at all explain why the 40% who support them are not clapping anything though. It's bizarre.
Remind me which bits of the Tory manifesto merit applause?
Was Tim right about the Manchester bomber being reported five times? What does that actually mean? And if so, why wasn't anything done?
There were concerns raised about the individual on five separate occasions, including once by his own Imman. The problem is that there are probably thousands of people who are reported each year, such as SeanT's own dry cleaners. Most of the time it's nothing. And often people fall through the net (nothing suspicious in his mobile phone call patterns, nothing to see here, move on).
We're getting better at tracking those we need to monitor. And for every Manchester, there are five guys who's plans are disrupted. But this is a multi-decade effort, and we're (really) only ten years in.
Modestly more resources, targeted modestly better, combined with better infiltration, and - like with the IRA and similar movements - we'll reduce Islamic terrorism to a minor, but chronic, condition. Maybe that's not enough, but that is the direction we're heading in.
The fact that people prefer Corbyn to Farron is incomprehensible to me.
At least Corbyn appears to be vaguely honest. Farron seems to be the most socially conservative of all the major leaders despite leading the 'Liberal' party.
Comments
Bizzarely he gets a cheer for banning jihadis from the UK but Rudd got nothing when she attacked Jez on anti-terror legislation...?
Is Leanne still there?
"Have you not read MY manifesto ? " asks Amber Rudd. It's a coup !
May 31, 2017
I know his past is an inconvenience to you but you can't rewrite history
The IFS say there is a £9 Bn gap yes
Thats peanuts in overall terms.
The alternative is more misery for the many 8 more years of austerity public services falling over.
I am shocked an intelligent centre left poster as yourself has fallen for TINA
Most people will be watching Britain's Got Talent.
Or National Socialists.
Maybe a mix of both.
"Why do the babies starve
When there's enough food to feed the world
Why when there're so many of us
Are there people still alone
Why are the missiles called peace keepers
When they're aimed to kill
Why is a woman still not safe
When she's in her home"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/security-services-missed-five-opportunities-stop-manchester/
Surely he has much more in common with the Lab programme than the Tories
To take someone we all thought was unelectable outside of his base - and turn him into an (almost) viable prime minister took real skill.
A very difficult job, very well done.
shhhh
Labour say they have provided full costings for our manifesto commitments. The IFS have identified a £8 Bn hole in Labs plans.
The only figures in the Tory manifesto are the fookin page numbers
EDIT: @Gallowgate - true, but I reckon they get more false alarms from concerned neighbours!
Having said that, Richard, here's a counter-argument for you. Not saying I believe it myself, but I thought I'd try it out on you.
You know that taxes, nationalisations and regulations can be reversed - quite possibly with economic pain and electoral difficulty, but it can be done. You know that house prices are unreliable stores of values, that there are always political threats to them, that sensible folk hedge themselves accordingly. You know that even the gravest recession can be recovered from.
You also know that if Britain leaves the single market, that would be very politically difficult to reverse. With UKIP effectively vanquished, with Britain only just deciding on leaving the political structures of the EU last time round, you know that if Britain could somehow remain in the EEA outside of the more integration-bound structures of Brussels, the arrangement would likely be permanent - almost impossible to imagine an anti-EEA campaign getting the same momentum that the anti-EU movement ultimately developed.
You know that Keir Starmer is not a village idiot. You know that senior bods in the Labour party, and importantly the unions, know the value of the single market.
If this election is your one last shot to prevent permanent economic harm to Britain by leaving the single market, and you're in a good enough position in life to take a short-term pummeling, then perhaps, like Mister Million-Quid-Mortgage Bigshot, you should be voting for Labour.
Now I know you're not gonna buy that, but is it completely irrational? (I don't happen to think many people will be thinking this way, but I am surprised that Labour haven't been deploying Starmer a bit more. I guess they are trying to avoid this being the Brexit Election.)
Someone could point out that if the Tories can't stand up to Trump how would they manage to stand up to EU27.
Corbyn really passionate about getting the americans to challenge their government to adhere to the paris agreement - is that something people are really concerned about, what the americans do and what we should say to them?
We're getting better at tracking those we need to monitor. And for every Manchester, there are five guys who's plans are disrupted. But this is a multi-decade effort, and we're (really) only ten years in.
Modestly more resources, targeted modestly better, combined with better infiltration, and - like with the IRA and similar movements - we'll reduce Islamic terrorism to a minor, but chronic, condition. Maybe that's not enough, but that is the direction we're heading in.
Will Rudd spot the open goal...?