Horrible and chaotic though such events can be, I have a strange interest in seeing how the headlines change, from subtle to extreme. A few minutes ago the BBC main page had a story about Turkey PM decrying 'illegal action' or something along those lines, now it's army group 'takes control of turkey'.
To be fair to the beeb it seems everyone is choosing their words carefully.
Oh, changing descriptions in fast moving events is perfectly justified. don't get me wrong, as is cautious wording. It's funniest on nakedly political things though, like 'wields spending cuts axe' becoming 'unveils austerity measures' or something.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
This week they've changed the access policy in the work wifi to specifically disallow betting sites, so I can't connect my lappy to this site in work hours, Arse. It's probably Brexit...
Anyhoo, my access is restricted and suddenly the news goes nonlinear. Multiple terrorist attacks in France, military coup in Turkey, Plissken flying the Gulf-fire into Leningrad. If I don't log in tomorrow, the news will involve the phrase "you now have two minutes to reach minimum safe distance"
FWIW given Turkey's military capabilities and geographical location I would be shocked if US/UK/France or Russia were not involved in aiding the coup.
Wut? Turkey has an army three times larger than the UK, and larger than the UK, US (Europe) and French forces combined. They don't need us. If they want to they can put close to a million men into the field.
John Kerry very neutral there, not even pretending to sound concerned. Erdogan has basically zero allies in the international arena. He's disliked by everyone in Europe, Russia, and the US. His only allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia at the moment I guess?
I'm not normally one for conspiracies but this seems like a coup that will be very quickly approved by the international community if it succeeds (and they wouldn't launch it if they weren't likely to succeed)
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
That shows how very little you understand about Turkish Politics...
I'm talking about UK politics. Nobody would have believed Turkey was about the join the EU if it was in the middle of a coup.
It's still unlikely, I said it as well. Though if this a secular coup it is probably more likely. I'd venture that Brexit may have been one of the triggers.
A very minor one, surely. What makes you think Brexit might have had any influence?
FWIW given Turkey's military capabilities and geographical location I would be shocked if US/UK/France or Russia were not involved in aiding the coup.
Wut? Turkey has an army three times larger than the UK, and larger than the UK, US (Europe) and French forces combined. They don't need us. If they want to they can put close to a million men into the field.
I feel like I should have been taught more about Turkey, the end of the Ottoman Empire and Ataturk - he seems to have been a towering figure and that rare thing, transformative.
I think this is going to be a success. It looks like they have control of the airports.
Has it been confirmed Erdogan is out of the country?
Erdogan is in Bodrum, in S.W. Turkey.
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime. So definitely NATO had prior knowledge of the coup for at least 10 hours before hand.
I think this is going to be a success. It looks like they have control of the airports.
Has it been confirmed Erdogan is out of the country?
Erdogan is in Bodrum, in S.W. Turkey.
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime. So definitely the West had prior knowledge of the coup of at least 10 hours.
Looks like he may be stuck there.. given the airport closures.
FWIW given Turkey's military capabilities and geographical location I would be shocked if US/UK/France or Russia were not involved in aiding the coup.
Wut? Turkey has an army three times larger than the UK, and larger than the UK, US (Europe) and French forces combined. They don't need us. If they want to they can put close to a million men into the field.
That's pretty much exactly my point, Turkey is too important for the West/Russia to leave entirely to its own devices, hence why I said that it's fairly likely that either UK/US/France or Russia would want influence among its next leaders.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
That shows how very little you understand about Turkish Politics...
I'm talking about UK politics. Nobody would have believed Turkey was about the join the EU if it was in the middle of a coup.
It's still unlikely, I said it as well. Though if this a secular coup it is probably more likely. I'd venture that Brexit may have been one of the triggers.
A very minor one, surely. What makes you think Brexit might have had any influence?
Britain have been Turkey's only ally in the EU for accession and trade policies. Without us to push their case the secular establishment might have got an itchy trigger finger. It's clear that Erdogan has been under pressure to make nice with Russia and Syria as well.
I feel like I should have been taught more about Turkey, the end of the Ottoman Empire and Ataturk - he seems to have been a towering figure and that rare thing, transformative.
As PB's foremost historian, I'll educate you on him
John Kerry very neutral there, not even pretending to sound concerned. Erdogan has basically zero allies in the international arena. He's disliked by everyone in Europe, Russia, and the US. His only allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia at the moment I guess?
I'm not normally one for conspiracies but this seems like a coup that will be very quickly approved by the international community if it succeeds (and they wouldn't launch it if they weren't likely to succeed)
Israel is not an ally of Erdogan. There has been bad blood between him and Israel for 5 years or more.
I think this is going to be a success. It looks like they have control of the airports.
Has it been confirmed Erdogan is out of the country?
Erdogan is in Bodrum, in S.W. Turkey.
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime. So definitely NATO had prior knowledge of the coup for at least 10 hours before hand.
And if NATO knew, NATO probably gave it a helping hand.
John Kerry very neutral there, not even pretending to sound concerned. Erdogan has basically zero allies in the international arena. He's disliked by everyone in Europe, Russia, and the US. His only allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia at the moment I guess?
I'm not normally one for conspiracies but this seems like a coup that will be very quickly approved by the international community if it succeeds (and they wouldn't launch it if they weren't likely to succeed)
Not Saudi Arabia. Very angry about him making conciliatory noises toward Syria, and been complaining about him to Kerry.
This week they've changed the access policy in the work wifi to specifically disallow betting sites, so I can't connect my lappy to this site in work hours, Arse. It's probably Brexit...
Anyhoo, my access is restricted and suddenly the news goes nonlinear. Multiple terrorist attacks in France, military coup in Turkey, Plissken flying the Gulf-fire into Leningrad. If I don't log in tomorrow, the news will involve the phrase "you now have two minutes to reach minimum safe distance"
Oh come on, you can work around that
At Goldman, I used to have the greatest fun in making sure IT could (physically) see me using sites that were banned. Of course, the logs indicated I was using a different site...
I think this is going to be a success. It looks like they have control of the airports.
Has it been confirmed Erdogan is out of the country?
Erdogan is in Bodrum, in S.W. Turkey.
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime. So definitely NATO had prior knowledge of the coup for at least 10 hours before hand.
Does NATO have rules about what they are supposed to do in terms of letting a leader know if their own military is getting coup happy?
Sky News now interviewing Tim Marshall! I bet they wish they'd never let him go.
He's saying it's a Colonel/1-star General level coup, and the top level Generals may not be involved.
He's been reading PB! I said it was probably brigadiers and colonels.
Edit: not here, damn wrote it in WhatsApp!
[21:56]I'd imagine it's brigadiers and colonel's who have become sick of the direction the country is taking and decided they've had enough. It also looks like they have the military police, army, navy and air force on board.
I feel like I should have been taught more about Turkey, the end of the Ottoman Empire and Ataturk - he seems to have been a towering figure and that rare thing, transformative.
Atatürk was a genuinely remarkable man. It's a shame the UK history curriculum is so narrow (though I hear its being improved). The late Ottoman empire was a basket case. He was a truly modern leader. Check him out. Considering his background...amazing.
John Kerry very neutral there, not even pretending to sound concerned. Erdogan has basically zero allies in the international arena. He's disliked by everyone in Europe, Russia, and the US. His only allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia at the moment I guess?
I'm not normally one for conspiracies but this seems like a coup that will be very quickly approved by the international community if it succeeds (and they wouldn't launch it if they weren't likely to succeed)
Israel is not an ally of Erdogan. There has been bad blood between him and Israel for 5 years or more.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
I think this is going to be a success. It looks like they have control of the airports.
Has it been confirmed Erdogan is out of the country?
Erdogan is in Bodrum, in S.W. Turkey.
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime. So definitely NATO had prior knowledge of the coup for at least 10 hours before hand.
Does NATO have rules about what they are supposed to do in terms of letting a leader know if their own military is getting coup happy?
I think this is going to be a success. It looks like they have control of the airports.
Has it been confirmed Erdogan is out of the country?
Erdogan is in Bodrum, in S.W. Turkey.
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime. So definitely NATO had prior knowledge of the coup for at least 10 hours before hand.
Does NATO have rules about what they are supposed to do in terms of letting a leader know if their own military is getting coup happy?
Not if it suits them to get rid of him.
I didn't ask if they would actually do so, just if they had official rules for such situations.
I feel like I should have been taught more about Turkey, the end of the Ottoman Empire and Ataturk - he seems to have been a towering figure and that rare thing, transformative.
Atatürk was a genuinely remarkable man. It's a shame the UK history curriculum is so narrow (though I hear its being improved). The late Ottoman empire was a basket case. He was a truly modern leader. Check him out. Considering his background...amazing.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
But it didn't so suck it up. If this coup succeeds then that probably moves them a step closer.
Although I appreciate knowledge of EU accession is an increasingly esosteric coin, I have to point out that non-democracies are not allowed to join the EU.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
Hmm, I can't remember anything about that, but even if it was the case, it was substantially harder to get agents into important positions in the SU than Turkey.
John Kerry very neutral there, not even pretending to sound concerned. Erdogan has basically zero allies in the international arena. He's disliked by everyone in Europe, Russia, and the US. His only allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia at the moment I guess?
I'm not normally one for conspiracies but this seems like a coup that will be very quickly approved by the international community if it succeeds (and they wouldn't launch it if they weren't likely to succeed)
Israel is not an ally of Erdogan. There has been bad blood between him and Israel for 5 years or more.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
It's the 21st century. They'll have been able to get it off Instagram.
I think this is going to be a success. It looks like they have control of the airports.
Has it been confirmed Erdogan is out of the country?
Erdogan is in Bodrum, in S.W. Turkey.
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime. So definitely the West had prior knowledge of the coup of at least 10 hours.
Looks like he may be stuck there.. given the airport closures.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
But it didn't so suck it up. If this coup succeeds then that probably moves them a step closer.
Although I appreciate knowledge of EU accession is an increasingly esosteric coin, I have to point out that non-democracies are not allowed to join the EU.
If the Coup is like the last few, they'll hand the reigns back over fairly soon to a secularist leader. Being run by a pro-western secular leader moves turkey quite a lot closer to joining compared to an Islamist dictator tightening his grip on power.
John Kerry very neutral there, not even pretending to sound concerned. Erdogan has basically zero allies in the international arena. He's disliked by everyone in Europe, Russia, and the US. His only allies are Israel and Saudi Arabia at the moment I guess?
I'm not normally one for conspiracies but this seems like a coup that will be very quickly approved by the international community if it succeeds (and they wouldn't launch it if they weren't likely to succeed)
Israel is not an ally of Erdogan. There has been bad blood between him and Israel for 5 years or more.
How many British tourists are likely to be in Turkey?
I would guess >100,000.
Jesus, that many?
Sounds like a reasonable estimate. Apparently some 2.5 million Brits visit Turkey every year. Might be a bit less cos the school holidays haven't started yet.
I've played an obscure old video game many times in recent years, called Republic: The Revolution, all about overthrowing an ex-soviet type dicatorship. Entertaining stuff, organizing rallies, criminal activity, forging political connections with other parties, that sort of thing, and it had a number of key events toward the end, where you could storm state tv and make a broadcast, ally with a rogue military faction, orchestrate a populist uprising, force diplomatic pressure to get the leader to stand down, assassinate leading figures in finance, religion and secret police and replace them with your picks.
I'll probably have to not replay it for awhile until the sight of real coups make it less carefree fun.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
Hmm, I can't remember anything about that, but even if it was the case, it was substantially harder to get agents into important positions in the SU than Turkey.
One of the most influential papers I ever read was by a CIA analyst. He pointed out that Western intelligence agencies had failed to predict every important event in modern history, from the Cuban missile crisis through the fall of the Shah through the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan...all the way to the fall of the Soviet Union. He then proceeded to analyse why we'd had this collective serial failure.
I feel like I should have been taught more about Turkey, the end of the Ottoman Empire and Ataturk - he seems to have been a towering figure and that rare thing, transformative.
Atatürk was a genuinely remarkable man. It's a shame the UK history curriculum is so narrow (though I hear its being improved). The late Ottoman empire was a basket case. He was a truly modern leader. Check him out. Considering his background...amazing.
Hilarious. I was on here yesterday talking about Atatürk and the relative secularism of Turkey and 24 hours later to the hour there's a coup in the country. Nothing's off the table at the moment.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
The Soviet Union was the enemy, the Turkish military and security services are very much not. They probably tipped off those friends that need to know before many of their own forces.
Hilarious. I was on here yesterday talking about Atatürk and the relative secularism of Turkey and 24 hours later to the hour there's a coup in the country. Nothing's off the table at the moment.
Hilarious. I was on here yesterday talking about Atatürk and the relative secularism of Turkey and 24 hours later to the hour there's a coup in the country. Nothing's off the table at the moment.
Please don't start talking about the relative secularism of the UK any time soon.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
Hmm, I can't remember anything about that, but even if it was the case, it was substantially harder to get agents into important positions in the SU than Turkey.
One of the most influential papers I ever read was by a CIA analyst. He pointed out that Western intelligence agencies had failed to predict every important event in modern history, from the Cuban missile crisis through the fall of the Shah through the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan...all the way to the fall of the Soviet Union. He then proceeded to analyse why we'd had this collective serial failure.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
But it didn't so suck it up. If this coup succeeds then that probably moves them a step closer.
Although I appreciate knowledge of EU accession is an increasingly esosteric coin, I have to point out that non-democracies are not allowed to join the EU.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
But it didn't so suck it up. If this coup succeeds then that probably moves them a step closer.
Although I appreciate knowledge of EU accession is an increasingly esosteric coin, I have to point out that non-democracies are not allowed to join the EU.
Spain, Greece and many other nations transferred pretty rapidly from military dictatorship to EU/predecessor members. Greece was a military dictatorship in July 1974 and an EEC member by New Years Day 1981, less than seven years later.
On that timescale, Turkey could be a member within a decade.
Comments
Mike Dammann
@firetown
Turkish intel agency spokesman says the coup attempt is almost being suppressed, it will be all over until morning
Whose else could they be?
groan.
https://twitter.com/itwitius?lang=en-gb
https://twitter.com/Itwitius/status/754046832452468736?lang=en-gb
Anyhoo, my access is restricted and suddenly the news goes nonlinear. Multiple terrorist attacks in France, military coup in Turkey, Plissken flying the Gulf-fire into Leningrad. If I don't log in tomorrow, the news will involve the phrase "you now have two minutes to reach minimum safe distance"
I'm not normally one for conspiracies but this seems like a coup that will be very quickly approved by the international community if it succeeds (and they wouldn't launch it if they weren't likely to succeed)
https://twitter.com/AJENews/status/754060744677847040
The greek military has just announced that they where monitoring the coup movements since lunchtime.
So definitely NATO had prior knowledge of the coup for at least 10 hours before hand.
Curfew. Martial law.
At Goldman, I used to have the greatest fun in making sure IT could (physically) see me using sites that were banned. Of course, the logs indicated I was using a different site...
"Can't get home, coup on"
Edit: not here, damn wrote it in WhatsApp!
[21:56]I'd imagine it's brigadiers and colonel's who have become sick of the direction the country is taking and decided they've had enough. It also looks like they have the military police, army, navy and air force on board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanak_Crisis
He could be in a rib already.
Let's hope there's a storm.
I'll probably have to not replay it for awhile until the sight of real coups make it less carefree fun.
I think the coup in Turkey might be a wider effort, not just the americans behind it.
On that timescale, Turkey could be a member within a decade.