Hilarious. I was on here yesterday talking about Atatürk and the relative secularism of Turkey and 24 hours later to the hour there's a coup in the country. Nothing's off the table at the moment.
Is that you claiming the credit there?
More troubling if so - when does Kent start the uprising??
I've played an obscure old video game many times in recent years, called Republic: The Revolution, all about overthrowing an ex-soviet type dicatorship. Entertaining stuff, organizing rallies, criminal activity, forging political connections with other parties, that sort of thing, and it had a number of key events toward the end, where you could storm state tv and make a broadcast, ally with a rogue military faction, orchestrate a populist uprising, force diplomatic pressure to get the leader to stand down, assassinate leading figures in finance, religion and secret police and replace them with your picks.
I'll probably have to not replay it for awhile until the sight of real coups make it less carefree fun.
Someone should make a video game simulating Tory and Labour leadership contests. Obviously the former would be more fun.
I've played an obscure old video game many times in recent years, called Republic: The Revolution, all about overthrowing an ex-soviet type dicatorship. Entertaining stuff, organizing rallies, criminal activity, forging political connections with other parties, that sort of thing, and it had a number of key events toward the end, where you could storm state tv and make a broadcast, ally with a rogue military faction, orchestrate a populist uprising, force diplomatic pressure to get the leader to stand down, assassinate leading figures in finance, religion and secret police and replace them with your picks.
I'll probably have to not replay it for awhile until the sight of real coups make it less carefree fun.
Fun fact: that game was created by Demis Hassabis, who went on to create Deep Mind, which was sold to Google for a gazillion dollars.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
But it didn't so suck it up. If this coup succeeds then that probably moves them a step closer.
Although I appreciate knowledge of EU accession is an increasingly esosteric coin, I have to point out that non-democracies are not allowed to join the EU.
Nobody's saying that a Turkish military dictatorship will be allowed into the EU - or even allowed to continue the negotiations.
The question is simply whether a coup that "resets" Turkey's democracy will enable it to join the EU faster (or indeed, at all) compared to the path Erdogan was taking the country down. For comparison...
Rule of the Greek colonels ended: 1974 Greece joined EEC: 1981
Rule of Estado Novo ended: 1974 Portugal joined EEC: 1986
Rule of Franco ended: 1975 Spain joined EEC: 1986
So there may not be a huge gap between the end of a military regime and steps towards EU accession. (Previous Turkish military regimes have lasted only for a couple of years, though with lingering influence for years after, but note past performance is no guide for future performance.)
I feel like I should have been taught more about Turkey, the end of the Ottoman Empire and Ataturk - he seems to have been a towering figure and that rare thing, transformative.
Atatürk was a genuinely remarkable man. It's a shame the UK history curriculum is so narrow (though I hear its being improved). The late Ottoman empire was a basket case. He was a truly modern leader. Check him out. Considering his background...amazing.
Like a drink as well so obviously a good lad, though it was the death of him.
If the Coup is like the last few, they'll hand the reigns back over fairly soon to a secularist leader. Being run by a pro-western secular leader moves turkey quite a lot closer to joining compared to an Islamist dictator tightening his grip on power.
Interesting point, thank you. Although tbh I'd need convincing concerning a rapid return to democracy after a coup.
If this is what it appears to be, (I.e. a Western backed coup to install a secular leader), then this is very, very good news for the West. Only this to watch out for is Russia's retaliation. In recent days Putin's rhetoric has got softer, lets hope that this doesn't harden it up again. All eyes to the Baltics.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
Hmm, I can't remember anything about that, but even if it was the case, it was substantially harder to get agents into important positions in the SU than Turkey.
One of the most influential papers I ever read was by a CIA analyst. He pointed out that Western intelligence agencies had failed to predict every important event in modern history, from the Cuban missile crisis through the fall of the Shah through the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan...all the way to the fall of the Soviet Union. He then proceeded to analyse why we'd had this collective serial failure.
What was the conclusion?
Some parts were classified, but the overall thrust was that the intelligence processing and governance structures act as a kind of tacit corporate groupthink.
If you think about any seminal historical event, at the outset they all seem very unlikely. Therefore, persuasive cases made by analysts from raw intelligence are filtered, downgraded and hedged until any signal is lost in the bureaucratic noise.
As we saw in the Aldrich Ames case, intelligence agencies (large bureaucracies all) don't necessarily win plaudits for being right but do get hammered for being wrong. Therefore there are powerful incentives for making very modest, heavily caveated predictions.
A LOT of UK holidaymakers are going to be very upset - especially as:- (to give an example)
You are not covered for claims arising out of; 1. loss or damage directly or indirectly occasioned by, happening through or in consequence of war, invasion, acts of foreign enemies, terrorism, hostilities (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection, military or usurped power or confiscation or nationalisation, or requisition or destruction of or damage to property by or under the order of any government or public or local authority. This is not applicable, however, in respect of claims under section 2 - emergency medical expenses arising through terrorism other than losses arising from nuclear, chemical and biological exposures unless you planned to travel to areas that were publicly known to be affected or threatened by such risks (please see general condition 3).
Would we have a coup in the event Corbyn got in charge ?
Thinking out loud.
There wouldn't be a coup.
If it was clear that he had lost support among the people, then the Queen would dismiss him & appoint the Tory leader as the PM, and there would be fresh elections which the new PM would presumably win.
Turkey about to join EU? Utter bollx from Leave. Now exposed in a terrible way
A secular military coup probably moves them a step closer tbh.
Crap. If this had happened during our own EU vote campaign the whole idea that Turkey was "about to join" would have been blown out of the water.
But it didn't so suck it up. If this coup succeeds then that probably moves them a step closer.
Although I appreciate knowledge of EU accession is an increasingly esosteric coin, I have to point out that non-democracies are not allowed to join the EU.
If the Coup is like the last few, they'll hand the reigns back over fairly soon to a secularist leader. Being run by a pro-western secular leader moves turkey quite a lot closer to joining compared to an Islamist dictator tightening his grip on power.
Interesting point, thank you. Although tbh I'd need convincing concerning a rapid return to democracy after a coup.
Yeah same, though I fear that the EU Bureaucrats may not. I think that Greece was a mere 7 years from coup to EU accession.
If this is what it appears to be, (I.e. a Western backed coup to install a secular leader), then this is very, very good news for the West. Only this to watch out for is Russia's retaliation. In recent days Putin's rhetoric has got softer, lets hope that this doesn't harden it up again. All eyes to the Baltics.
It occurred on a Friday after the markets closed. Short of a holiday weekend is there any less of a destabilizing time for a coup?
Yet again world events make me think Thank Heavens we voted Leave.
I wonder if this makes Turkey more or less likely to be let into the EU?
More, if it is Western backed & follows process of previous coups. Less if there is lots of resistance leading to civil war or if it is Russian backed.
I've played an obscure old video game many times in recent years, called Republic: The Revolution, all about overthrowing an ex-soviet type dicatorship. Entertaining stuff, organizing rallies, criminal activity, forging political connections with other parties, that sort of thing, and it had a number of key events toward the end, where you could storm state tv and make a broadcast, ally with a rogue military faction, orchestrate a populist uprising, force diplomatic pressure to get the leader to stand down, assassinate leading figures in finance, religion and secret police and replace them with your picks.
I'll probably have to not replay it for awhile until the sight of real coups make it less carefree fun.
Fun fact: that game was created by Demis Hassabis, who went on to create Deep Mind, which was sold to Google for a gazillion dollars.
And as a Greek Cypriot Brit he was heavily effected by Turkey!
You go out for the evening because things are quietening down and you arrive home to a military coup in a NATO state that borders Syria. I don't think baptisms get more fiery than this. Boris needs a better response than 'cripes'
How does NATO fit into all this? Can Article 5 only be invoked against attacks by an external power or could a government use it against a coup attempt?
I've played an obscure old video game many times in recent years, called Republic: The Revolution, all about overthrowing an ex-soviet type dicatorship. Entertaining stuff, organizing rallies, criminal activity, forging political connections with other parties, that sort of thing, and it had a number of key events toward the end, where you could storm state tv and make a broadcast, ally with a rogue military faction, orchestrate a populist uprising, force diplomatic pressure to get the leader to stand down, assassinate leading figures in finance, religion and secret police and replace them with your picks.
I'll probably have to not replay it for awhile until the sight of real coups make it less carefree fun.
Someone should make a video game simulating Tory and Labour leadership contests. Obviously the former would be more fun.
The latter, surely?
Personally, that'd be such a grand strategy mess, I'd be no good at it though (Crusader Kings 2, far too intimidating). Even simple ones too hard for me, I have no patience - I played Democracy 3 and set about trying to create a populist revolutionary government and ended up with the country in ruins and an abrupt 'you got assassinated' screen after like 6 months go game time. TSE would do better.
How many British tourists are likely to be in Turkey?
I would guess >100,000.
Jesus, that many?
Not these days, surely. Numbers have gone down hugely.
LBC discussion today, sometime from the travel industry was saying Turkey has become something if a market for bargain holidays, but only the parts further away from any recent incidents. So people are going there.
Would we have a coup in the event Corbyn got in charge ?
Thinking out loud.
There wouldn't be a coup.
If it was clear that he had lost support among the people, then the Queen would dismiss him & appoint the Tory leader as the PM, and there would be fresh elections which the new PM would presumably win.
Mind you, the PLP must be looking on with some envy.
Would we have a coup in the event Corbyn got in charge ?
Thinking out loud.
There wouldn't be a coup.
If it was clear that he had lost support among the people, then the Queen would dismiss him & appoint the Tory leader as the PM, and there would be fresh elections which the new PM would presumably win.
Mind you, the PLP must be looking on with some envy.
You go out for the evening because things are quietening down and you arrive home to a military coup in a NATO state that borders Syria. I don't think baptisms get more fiery than this. Boris needs a better response than 'cripes'
There's not much we can do except emit soothing noises and do our best on the ground for our holidaymakers. Boris is only needed for the first part.
If the Coup is like the last few, they'll hand the reigns back over fairly soon to a secularist leader. Being run by a pro-western secular leader moves turkey quite a lot closer to joining compared to an Islamist dictator tightening his grip on power.
Interesting point, thank you. Although tbh I'd need convincing concerning a rapid return to democracy after a coup.
Surely it's not the rapid return to democracy that could be a problem, but a return to a democracy that will return the right sort of government.
You go out for the evening because things are quietening down and you arrive home to a military coup in a NATO state that borders Syria. I don't think baptisms get more fiery than this. Boris needs a better response than 'cripes'
If this is what it appears to be, (I.e. a Western backed coup to install a secular leader), then this is very, very good news for the West. Only this to watch out for is Russia's retaliation. In recent days Putin's rhetoric has got softer, lets hope that this doesn't harden it up again. All eyes to the Baltics.
It occurred on a Friday after the markets closed. Short of a holiday weekend is there any less of a destabilizing time for a coup?
Nope. Though I am very nervous about the aftershocks of this, re Russia, popular support for Erodgan and the Kurds.
Yet again world events make me think Thank Heavens we voted Leave.
Why? Having left the EU, we'll no longer have a veto on Turkey joining. But we'll still need to allow freedom of movement if we want to remain in the single market.
You go out for the evening because things are quietening down and you arrive home to a military coup in a NATO state that borders Syria. I don't think baptisms get more fiery than this. Boris needs a better response than 'cripes'
Does he? It would appear that the best British response to this is nothing.
If this is what it appears to be, (I.e. a Western backed coup to install a secular leader), then this is very, very good news for the West. Only this to watch out for is Russia's retaliation. In recent days Putin's rhetoric has got softer, lets hope that this doesn't harden it up again. All eyes to the Baltics.
Does he have any reason to support Erdogan? I know he doesn't exactly like the West removing leaders it doesn't like.....
There was once a young man from Ankara, Who was alas a bit of a Wankera The Generals they spoke, You have got our goat And was last seen on an Iphone as he sank-ara (without trace)
This could be the Kurds' moment to form their own state, I don't think that they'll think for too long about taking it.
They have taken a massive amount of land in Syria and Iraq now.
Yep, given that the new Turkish leader will be grappling with ISIS & Assad (if Western backed), the Kurds may think that they would be (relatively) ignored for now if they stopped wherever they are now and declared a state.
The police are going to get destroyed if they try anything. It's the Gendarmerie, Army, Air Force and Navy on the side of the coup. The police have no one.
Yet again world events make me think Thank Heavens we voted Leave.
Why? Having left the EU, we'll no longer have a veto on Turkey joining. But we'll still need to allow freedom of movement if we want to remain in the single market.
The notion the UK would exercise a veto if Cyprus, Greece, France and 24 other nations did not was always a non-starter anyway.
The Mayor of Ankara has also called for a popular uprising against the coup.
If Erdogan has enough popular support it may end up like the KGB August 1991 coup or even a Spanish Civil War situation.
Followed swiftly by a Russian invasion from east and west with the Turkish state reduced to a rump around Ankara and the Ecumenical Patriach installed in Hagia Sophia?
Nobody's saying that a Turkish military dictatorship will be allowed into the EU - or even allowed to continue the negotiations.
The question is simply whether a coup that "resets" Turkey's democracy will enable it to join the EU faster (or indeed, at all) compared to the path Erdogan was taking the country down. For comparison...
Rule of the Greek colonels ended: 1974 Greece joined EEC: 1981
Rule of Estado Novo ended: 1974 Portugal joined EEC: 1986
Rule of Franco ended: 1975 Spain joined EEC: 1986
So there may not be a huge gap between the end of a military regime and steps towards EU accession. (Previous Turkish military regimes have lasted only for a couple of years, though with lingering influence for years after, but note past performance is no guide for future performance.)
Fair point, but you did leave a couple of things out, namely (in italics)
Rule of the Greek colonels started: 1967 Rule of the Greek colonels ended: 1974 Greece joined EEC: 1981
Rule of Estado Novo started: 1933(!) Rule of Estado Novo ended: 1974 Portugal joined EEC: 1986
Rule of Franco started: 1936/9 Rule of Franco ended: 1975 Spain joined EEC: 1986
So at that rate, Turkey won't join the EU until 2035-2065...
Anna Soubry, Ros Altmann and Ed Vaizey have left the government.
Brandon Lewis – Minister of State for Policing and the Fire Service at the Home Office
Matt Hancock – Minister of State responsible for digital policy at DCMS
Jane Ellison – Financial Secretary to the Treasury
Jo Johnson – Minister of State at the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, leading on universities and science
John Hayes – Minister of State at the Department for Transport
Damian Hinds – Minister of State for the Department of Work and Pensions
Greg Hands – Minister of State in the Department for International Trade
Robert Goodwill – Minister of State for immigration in the Home Office
I'm not saying it's over for him yet but Corbyn's odds look better.
Yes that looks bad for him. He couldn't even get a proper camera to broadcast a statement? That looks more like he's been found in Pokemon Go. Erdomon.
Because Britain (well America) might be behind it ?
That sort of thinking usually depends on other countries being depicted as having no power, influence or motivations of their own, dependent entirely on dancing to western strings. Now, perhaps there is something going on here, we shall see, but I bet they wish they still had that kind of pull.
Given's Turkey's capabilities and geographical location it'd be pretty negligent if the CIA/SIS didn't at the very least know about this coup attempt.
I'd hope they'd know, but who can say - didn't we discover from american disclosure of presidential communications recently that they didn't have a clue what was going on on the ground when the Soviet Union collapsed, or am I remembering?
Hmm, I can't remember anything about that, but even if it was the case, it was substantially harder to get agents into important positions in the SU than Turkey.
One of the most influential papers I ever read was by a CIA analyst. He pointed out that Western intelligence agencies had failed to predict every important event in modern history, from the Cuban missile crisis through the fall of the Shah through the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan...all the way to the fall of the Soviet Union. He then proceeded to analyse why we'd had this collective serial failure.
What was the conclusion?
Some parts were classified, but the overall thrust was that the intelligence processing and governance structures act as a kind of tacit corporate groupthink.
If you think about any seminal historical event, at the outset they all seem very unlikely. Therefore, persuasive cases made by analysts from raw intelligence are filtered, downgraded and hedged until any signal is lost in the bureaucratic noise.
As we saw in the Aldrich Ames case, intelligence agencies (large bureaucracies all) don't necessarily win plaudits for being right but do get hammered for being wrong. Therefore there are powerful incentives for making very modest, heavily caveated predictions.
TL:DR You get what you measure.
Mr M, I think I would agree with that, at least at the strategic level. I'd also add a tendency for those at the top of the intelligence tree to be mindful of what their political masters want to hear (e.g the JIC in 2002).
Nobody's saying that a Turkish military dictatorship will be allowed into the EU - or even allowed to continue the negotiations.
The question is simply whether a coup that "resets" Turkey's democracy will enable it to join the EU faster (or indeed, at all) compared to the path Erdogan was taking the country down. For comparison...
Rule of the Greek colonels ended: 1974 Greece joined EEC: 1981
Rule of Estado Novo ended: 1974 Portugal joined EEC: 1986
Rule of Franco ended: 1975 Spain joined EEC: 1986
So there may not be a huge gap between the end of a military regime and steps towards EU accession. (Previous Turkish military regimes have lasted only for a couple of years, though with lingering influence for years after, but note past performance is no guide for future performance.)
Fair point, but you did leave a couple of things out, namely (in italics)
Rule of the Greek colonels started: 1967 Rule of the Greek colonels ended: 1974 Greece joined EEC: 1981
Rule of Estado Novo started: 1933(!) Rule of Estado Novo ended: 1974 Portugal joined EEC: 1986
Rule of Franco started: 1936/9 Rule of Franco ended: 1975 Spain joined EEC: 1986
So at that rate, Turkey won't join the EU until 2035-2065...
67 to 81 is 14 years which would be 2030. Considering the last EU referendum settled the issue for 41 years, 14 years is well within that window.
I've played an obscure old video game many times in recent years, called Republic: The Revolution, all about overthrowing an ex-soviet type dicatorship. Entertaining stuff, organizing rallies, criminal activity, forging political connections with other parties, that sort of thing, and it had a number of key events toward the end, where you could storm state tv and make a broadcast, ally with a rogue military faction, orchestrate a populist uprising, force diplomatic pressure to get the leader to stand down, assassinate leading figures in finance, religion and secret police and replace them with your picks.
I'll probably have to not replay it for awhile until the sight of real coups make it less carefree fun.
Someone should make a video game simulating Tory and Labour leadership contests. Obviously the former would be more fun.
The latter, surely?
Personally, that'd be such a grand strategy mess, I'd be no good at it though (Crusader Kings 2, far too intimidating). Even simple ones too hard for me, I have no patience - I played Democracy 3 and set about trying to create a populist revolutionary government and ended up with the country in ruins and an abrupt 'you got assassinated' screen after like 6 months go game time. TSE would do better.
I was thinking the Labour one would continually end in failure.
If this is what it appears to be, (I.e. a Western backed coup to install a secular leader), then this is very, very good news for the West. Only this to watch out for is Russia's retaliation. In recent days Putin's rhetoric has got softer, lets hope that this doesn't harden it up again. All eyes to the Baltics.
Does he have any reason to support Erdogan? I know he doesn't exactly like the West removing leaders it doesn't like.....
I suspect he is more likely to be behind the coup than the west.
If this is what it appears to be, (I.e. a Western backed coup to install a secular leader), then this is very, very good news for the West. Only this to watch out for is Russia's retaliation. In recent days Putin's rhetoric has got softer, lets hope that this doesn't harden it up again. All eyes to the Baltics.
It sounds from Lavrov that the Russians are taking a similar line to the Americans, remember they aren't a fan of Erdogan either...
If the Coup is like the last few, they'll hand the reigns back over fairly soon to a secularist leader. Being run by a pro-western secular leader moves turkey quite a lot closer to joining compared to an Islamist dictator tightening his grip on power.
Interesting point, thank you. Although tbh I'd need convincing concerning a rapid return to democracy after a coup.
Surely it's not the rapid return to democracy that could be a problem, but a return to a democracy that will return the right sort of government.
I'm not saying it's over for him yet but Corbyn's odds look better.
Yes that looks bad for him. He couldn't even get a proper camera to broadcast a statement? That looks more like he's been found in Pokemon Go. Erdomon.
Reported to have been refused landing rights in Istanbul and now seeking asylum in Germany
If this is what it appears to be, (I.e. a Western backed coup to install a secular leader), then this is very, very good news for the West. Only this to watch out for is Russia's retaliation. In recent days Putin's rhetoric has got softer, lets hope that this doesn't harden it up again. All eyes to the Baltics.
Does he have any reason to support Erdogan? I know he doesn't exactly like the West removing leaders it doesn't like.....
I suspect he is more likely to be behind the coup than the west.
To FB - he may think that a new Western-backed leader is much more likely to take down Assad, moreover they would be more likely to join the EU, taking them further away from Russia.
To Paul, I agree, but right now the possibility that Putin may be making Turkey a semi-puppet state is a bit too grim to consider.
Comments
via smartphone. A first, I guess.
I'm not saying it's over for him yet but Corbyn's odds look better.
I go out for the evening thinking, oh well things are calming down at last, and discover there has been a military coup in Turkey when I get back.
What a month.
The question is simply whether a coup that "resets" Turkey's democracy will enable it to join the EU faster (or indeed, at all) compared to the path Erdogan was taking the country down. For comparison...
Rule of the Greek colonels ended: 1974
Greece joined EEC: 1981
Rule of Estado Novo ended: 1974
Portugal joined EEC: 1986
Rule of Franco ended: 1975
Spain joined EEC: 1986
So there may not be a huge gap between the end of a military regime and steps towards EU accession. (Previous Turkish military regimes have lasted only for a couple of years, though with lingering influence for years after, but note past performance is no guide for future performance.)
He calls for a popular uprising against the coup plotters and blames the Gulen network.
The military meanwhile have proclaimed that the "committee for peace in the country" will govern.
If you think about any seminal historical event, at the outset they all seem very unlikely. Therefore, persuasive cases made by analysts from raw intelligence are filtered, downgraded and hedged until any signal is lost in the bureaucratic noise.
As we saw in the Aldrich Ames case, intelligence agencies (large bureaucracies all) don't necessarily win plaudits for being right but do get hammered for being wrong. Therefore there are powerful incentives for making very modest, heavily caveated predictions.
TL:DR You get what you measure.
You are not covered for claims arising out of;
1. loss or damage directly or indirectly occasioned by, happening through or in consequence of war, invasion, acts of foreign enemies, terrorism, hostilities (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection, military or usurped power or confiscation or
nationalisation, or requisition or destruction of or damage to property by or under the order of any government or public or local authority. This is not applicable, however, in respect of claims under section 2 - emergency medical expenses arising through terrorism other than losses arising from nuclear, chemical and biological exposures unless you planned to travel to areas that were publicly known to be affected or threatened by such risks (please see general condition 3).
will often appear in travel insurance policies.
https://twitter.com/CELTIC_FC_/status/754066218261188608
Maybe some are following.
If it was clear that he had lost support among the people, then the Queen would dismiss him & appoint the Tory leader as the PM, and there would be fresh elections which the new PM would presumably win.
Reportedly he is on his way to Germany...so rumoured lifted a while back...now going to Germany...
It's all connected!!!!
Personally, that'd be such a grand strategy mess, I'd be no good at it though (Crusader Kings 2, far too intimidating). Even simple ones too hard for me, I have no patience - I played Democracy 3 and set about trying to create a populist revolutionary government and ended up with the country in ruins and an abrupt 'you got assassinated' screen after like 6 months go game time. TSE would do better.
Who was alas a bit of a Wankera
The Generals they spoke,
You have got our goat
And was last seen on an Iphone as he sank-ara (without trace)
With apologies to the foreign secretary
If Erdogan has enough popular support it may end up like the KGB August 1991 coup or even a Spanish Civil War situation.
Any lingering thoughts of Bremorse have been well and truly killed on the last 24 hours in Britain. The sooner we leave the better.
To be fair, they basically already have one. The decision is just not to officially pronounce it
Rule of the Greek colonels started: 1967
Rule of the Greek colonels ended: 1974
Greece joined EEC: 1981
Rule of Estado Novo started: 1933(!)
Rule of Estado Novo ended: 1974
Portugal joined EEC: 1986
Rule of Franco started: 1936/9
Rule of Franco ended: 1975
Spain joined EEC: 1986
So at that rate, Turkey won't join the EU until 2035-2065...
Mike Penning – Minister of State at MoD
Anna Soubry, Ros Altmann and Ed Vaizey have left the government.
Brandon Lewis – Minister of State for Policing and the Fire Service at the Home Office
Matt Hancock – Minister of State responsible for digital policy at DCMS
Jane Ellison – Financial Secretary to the Treasury
Jo Johnson – Minister of State at the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, leading on universities and science
John Hayes – Minister of State at the Department for Transport
Damian Hinds – Minister of State for the Department of Work and Pensions
Greg Hands – Minister of State in the Department for International Trade
Robert Goodwill – Minister of State for immigration in the Home Office
Facetime - For when you are locked in a cupboard because of a military coup and need to address the nation....
So far from confronting the troops, they are supporting them.
To Paul, I agree, but right now the possibility that Putin may be making Turkey a semi-puppet state is a bit too grim to consider.