"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Don't look at me. I voted Remain and I voted Labour last year. If Ed Milliband was PM we would still be in the EU and the £ would not be sinking towards parity against the USD.
"Don't blame me I voted Labour"
Still got that badge
Wonder if SO has a "Don't blame me I voted Kendall"
Should be worth a bob or two on rarity value alone.
So is Turkey. But we give them diplomatic support, development aid, and ignore their 'little' foibles (I shan't even speak of Saudi Arabia). We talk in terms of trade, development and constructive engagement bringing them closer to our model. Why should the same arguments not apply to trade and development between Germany and Russia?
No, same goes for Turkey. Turkey has changed. We shouldn't be pandering to them - but Germany is. And our influence on German policymaking will now be much reduced.
Obviously my intention was not to belittle the deaths on all sides in the conflicts I mentioned. It was simply the fact that what was so notable about those conflicts - perhaps unlike any other I have read of before - was the lack of the exit strategy, the basic idea that it wasn't necessary to really think about what comes next because everything is bound to work out okay as long as you win. It does strike me that this appears to have been the principle followed by both camps in the referendum. It is a case of winning the war but losing the peace.
I was going to respond too to your military analogy, but thought better of it when I decided you were mainly riffing on the phrase "exit strategy" rather than saying something about those conflicts. The main point being that Britain did not win the wars in either Iraq or Afghanistan - Britain lost - and in fact did not even have a clear and realisable overall military aim. A good book on this and its ramifications is Frank Letwidge's Losing Small Wars: British Military Failure in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Funnily enough John I have just finished reading it. Hence the reason the analogy was so much in my mind.
I bet he's not far wrong. A lot of people are thinking and talking out of a place of shock and fear after Thursday's unexpected result. Once things settle down, appetite in Scotland for another referendum will decline and when it's called 'No' will win again. Scotland will be choosing between the UK and the EU, which will focus minds.
Bollox, may be the opinion in Kent but not in Scotland
If they are going to betray the wwc that handed them their victory there will be carnage.
Seriously, this is a section of society that thinks it has now been listened to and they will turn very nasty if denied. I mean seriously, civil unrest type nasty.
Indeed, I fear Cameron truly has opened pandora's box.
I bet he's not far wrong. A lot of people are thinking and talking out of a place of shock and fear after Thursday's unexpected result. Once things settle down, appetite in Scotland for another referendum will decline and when it's called 'No' will win again. Scotland will be choosing between the UK and the EU, which will focus minds.
Thanks for your expertise on what's going on in Scotland.
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
I've been saying that for at least a decade. Also the US if they want. Call it the "Five Eyes Club". It is ridiculous seeing graduate, English-speaking Kiwi or Aussie friends denied permission to live and work here legally while unskilled Romanians get in just because they live in the same continent.
If they are going to betray the wwc that handed them their victory there will be carnage.
Seriously, this is a section of society that thinks it has now been listened to and they will turn very nasty if denied. I mean seriously, civil unrest type nasty.
I'm not sure, realistically, what the alternative option is. it is undoubtably in the national interest to remain in the single market at this moment in time. And we are up against a bruised EU who won't concede freedom of movement.
"Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry."
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
A year or two ago we had a disagreement about Cameron's negotiating ability.
You were convinced he knew what he was doing and I pointed out that saying you wouldn't walk away without an agreement was the way to guarantee a shit deal.
Out of curiosity what were the Foreign Office experts doing while Cameron was behaving in this manner ?
No offence to Charles, an arch Brexiteer, but unless we know who his contact was (which reasonably he won't divulge), why should we believe this account?
I'm shocked JohnO, SHOCKED !!!
The word of a PBer is SACRED !!!
No PBers would ever post made up bollox or fifth hand tittle-tattle.
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
I would be happy with the peoples chancellor but he wouldn't get on the ballot as he would need 35 MPs and would be too likely to win for the PLP.
Thought our party believed in democracy
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 37m37 minutes ago Understand at least 30 shadow ministers set to resign tomorrow.
Progressive Labour think they can overturn a democratic mandate and don't even want an election.
It aint happening and when they leave they should have the bollox to trigger a by-election
Progressive Labour are the ones worried about the 9 million who voted Labour in 2015, plus centrists who voted for other parties who have nowhere to go.
Are they crazy ? George Osborne is so hated he could sink their own campaign with them.
If they want to give a top job to a Remainer as reconciliation, there are many other better options.
We don't know the Parliamentary arithmetic. Reports are that Osborne still commands a sizeable body of support. It may be that Boris is seriously concerned he won't get on the ballot paper unless he can get Osborne on board.
Boris in the Telegraph. The anti-immigration leavers are going to explode
British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.
"Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry."
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
I lost any respect for them last summer when months before the vote came in where already publicly stating that they will try to overthrow Corbyn as soon as possible.
In the beginning I was an Yvette Cooper supporter and their own actions forced me to support Corbyn in order to kick their buts, time and time again they are infuriating me so much that I simply want them expelled.
Those people have proved that they do not and should not belong to the Labour party.
I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a bit longer than that because, while I disagreed what what they did, I thought they had good intentions and were just doing what they thought was in the interests of getting Labour elected.
But no more. Their utter obsession with the EU, even after it's been shown that that obsession will lose Labour a huge chunk of their core vote, shows that the "moderates" simply have ideological obsessions of their own -- they would rather Labour lose on a Europhile platform than win on a Eurosceptic platform.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Wales voted Leave and given the choice of keeping the English 'Empire' but being part of the even greater EU 'Empire' English voters chose to forgo imperialism and take freedom, may not prove to be such a bad choice in the end!
Enough. The ninnies have taken over the nursery. I shall leave you all to play with the endless succession of strawmen that this site now specialises in, and hope that things are cooler tomorrow. Toodle pip!
Plenty of strawmen about, although frankly you do seen nuanced opinion as well.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Don't look at me. I voted Remain and I voted Labour last year. If Ed Milliband was PM we would still be in the EU and the £ would not be sinking towards parity against the USD.
"Don't blame me I voted Labour"
Still got that badge
I lost my badge - can you send me one please BJO?
Coal not Dole and Just one more cut Thatchers throat ones too.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Don't look at me. I voted Remain and I voted Labour last year. If Ed Milliband was PM we would still be in the EU and the £ would not be sinking towards parity against the USD.
"Don't blame me I voted Labour"
Still got that badge
Wonder if SO has a "Don't blame me I voted Kendall"
Should be worth a bob or two on rarity value alone.
By publishing his manifesto in a (very lucrative) Telegraph column Boris has managed to look even more of a klutz and piss off a whole new bunch of people.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
Don't look at me. I voted Remain and I voted Labour last year. If Ed Milliband was PM we would still be in the EU and the £ would not be sinking towards parity against the USD.
"Don't blame me I voted Labour"
Still got that badge
Wonder if SO has a "Don't blame me I voted Kendall"
Should be worth a bob or two on rarity value alone.
If they are going to betray the wwc that handed them their victory there will be carnage.
Seriously, this is a section of society that thinks it has now been listened to and they will turn very nasty if denied. I mean seriously, civil unrest type nasty.
If we're going to be brutally honest, the immigration that worries these people is not, really, Polish plumbers and Slovak dentists, let alone French bankers, it is burqa'd Muslims and maybe Roma, with a side order of cheap brickies.
The government somehow has to reassure the people on this without appearing racist.
Fox is the answer. The only one who declined to condemn the poster...
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The British Empire was lost last century. The English Empire (Scotland, what's left of Ireland, even possibly Wales) will be lost this century.
Wales voted Leave and given the choice of keeping the English 'Empire' but being part of the even greater EU 'Empire' English voters chose to forgo imperialism and take freedom, may not prove to be such a bad choice in the end!
What on earth has come over you?
I voted Remain but I was never a passionate Europhile, we are now out and must make our own way not engage in doing the country down
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
I lost any respect for them last summer when months before the vote came in where already publicly stating that they will try to overthrow Corbyn as soon as possible.
In the beginning I was an Yvette Cooper supporter and their own actions forced me to support Corbyn in order to kick their buts, time and time again they are infuriating me so much that I simply want them expelled.
Those people have proved that they do not and should not belong to the Labour party.
I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a bit longer than that because, while I disagreed what what they did, I thought they had good intentions and were just doing what they thought was in the interests of getting Labour elected.
But no more. Their utter obsession with the EU, even after it's been shown that that obsession will lose Labour a huge chunk of their core vote, shows that the "moderates" simply have ideological obsessions of their own -- they would rather Labour lose on a Europhile platform than win on a Eurosceptic platform.
It is not so much enthusiasm for the EU, the coup is happening now because it had to be after the referendum, but it has been on the cards much longer. It could just as easily been over Trident or Syria.
The problem is not so much politics, as the complete ineffectiveness of Corbyn in everything he does.
So is Turkey. But we give them diplomatic support, development aid, and ignore their 'little' foibles (I shan't even speak of Saudi Arabia). We talk in terms of trade, development and constructive engagement bringing them closer to our model. Why should the same arguments not apply to trade and development between Germany and Russia?
No, same goes for Turkey. Turkey has changed. We shouldn't be pandering to them - but Germany is. And our influence on German policymaking will now be much reduced.
Meh. I'm tired of our (really as a proxy for the US) influence. Iraq, Libya, Syria... I'm actively convinced the world would be less buggered without our oar, sheer inertia beating active meddling.
I want armed services capable of defending our country against any quarter. That's all I'm interested in.
A Brexit voting friend of mine is asking me if he thinks Boris Johnson will be good at negotiating with the EU.
I would trust Gove, Hannah, Carswell, Stuart and Field to negotiate with the EU the terms of Brexit, not any one person from any single party should take responsibility of such a quest.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
A year or two ago we had a disagreement about Cameron's negotiating ability.
You were convinced he knew what he was doing and I pointed out that saying you wouldn't walk away without an agreement was the way to guarantee a shit deal.
Out of curiosity what were the Foreign Office experts doing while Cameron was behaving in this manner ?
No offence to Charles, an arch Brexiteer, but unless we know who his contact was (which reasonably he won't divulge), why should we believe this account?
I'm shocked JohnO, SHOCKED !!!
The word of a PBer is SACRED !!!
No PBers would ever post made up bollox or fifth hand tittle-tattle.
You little winker...but to be clear, I don't doubt Charles has faithfully recorded the conversation, but might his contact have, well, a vested interest in slagging off poor humiliated Mr C
By publishing his manifesto in a (very lucrative) Telegraph column Boris has managed to look even more of a klutz and piss off a whole new bunch of people.
He is clueless. Everything will be the same for Brits in Europe - we'll still have free movement in the EU - but a points system for people coming here. Of course!!
Well, still closer than I had thought it would be - the question is if that hardens or softens at all.
Quite. I thought it would be more like 65/35 YES/NO.
Sturgeon won't risk it on these numbers. SO FAR.
Article 50 hasn't been engaged yet. A large number of people in my social media circle are still at the bargaining stage and don't really believe actual brexit is going to happen yet.
Boris in the Telegraph. The anti-immigration leavers are going to explode
British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
At this point, the "moderates" are clearly only interested in their own ideological obsessions, and in their own personal ambitions to have senior positions in the party. They do not care about how much they damage the chances of a Labour government in the process.
I lost any respect for them last summer when months before the vote came in where already publicly stating that they will try to overthrow Corbyn as soon as possible.
In the beginning I was an Yvette Cooper supporter and their own actions forced me to support Corbyn in order to kick their buts, time and time again they are infuriating me so much that I simply want them expelled.
Those people have proved that they do not and should not belong to the Labour party.
I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a bit longer than that because, while I disagreed what what they did, I thought they had good intentions and were just doing what they thought was in the interests of getting Labour elected.
But no more. Their utter obsession with the EU, even after it's been shown that that obsession will lose Labour a huge chunk of their core vote, shows that the "moderates" simply have ideological obsessions of their own -- they would rather Labour lose on a Europhile platform than win on a Eurosceptic platform.
It is not so much enthusiasm for the EU, the coup is happening now because it had to be after the referendum, but it has been on the cards much longer. It could just as easily been over Trident or Syria.
The problem is not so much politics, as the complete ineffectiveness of Corbyn in everything he does.
Again though, saying "Corbyn is ineffective" is not the same as proving "someone else would be more effective than Corbyn".
It is not at all clear to me that Labour MPs who misread the public mood so badly on the EU (which is to say, pretty much every Labour MP bar Corbyn and his hardcore followers, plus a few mavericks like Stuart/Field/Hoey) have the political judgement to be effective leaders of a political party.
The PP was forecast to drop 4 seats, and Citizens to lose 12. The Right wing block was expected to be down 16 seats. (I.e. 10% of their total). The reality? The block gained 6 seats. The polls were 5% out on the PP vote share, and 3% on Citizens.
According the exits, Podemos was expected to be just 3% behind the PP on 26%. Reality, they were third behind the PSOE on 22%.
Did people lie to the pollsters? Or were they just shit?
I personally don't understand how anyone can blame the 'moderates' for resigning today/tonight. If you give a damn about the Labour party, the working class, and the people of this country you will want Jeremy Corbyn gone and you will be supporting all the shadow cabinet ministers who have put two fingers up at Corbyn. Let me say who is damaging the electability of the Labour party: Jeremy Corbyn and his associates. This man is one of the biggest threats to British democracy at this moment in time. His leadership and the sheer competence that has ensued from it is preventing this country from being a functioning democracy right now. HM Opposition is an absolute total joke, and I have to be honest and say I consider Corbyn supporters to be totally delusional. This man will never win a GE and is setting Labour and the Left in general back by decades. By supporting Jeremy Corbyn, you cannot claim to care about the working classes. Corbyn's leadership virtually guarantees a Conservative government - and not just any Conservative government - but a total disaster of a Conservative government.
I hope Dan Hodges is right re 30 shadow ministers resigning. Labour needs to take this opportunity to get rid of Corbyn.
Boris in the Telegraph. The anti-immigration leavers are going to explode
British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.
So, erm, what was the bloody point of all this?
Well we don't get all the regulations and directives
I personally don't understand how anyone can blame the 'moderates' for resigning today/tonight. If you give a damn about the Labour party, the working class, and the people of this country you will want Jeremy Corbyn gone and you will be supporting all the shadow cabinet ministers who have put two fingers up at Corbyn. Let me say who is damaging the electability of the Labour party: Jeremy Corbyn and his associates. This man is one of the biggest threats to British democracy at this moment in time. His leadership and the sheer competence that has ensued from it is preventing this country from being a functioning democracy right now. HM Opposition is an absolute total joke, and I have to be honest and say I consider Corbyn supporters to be totally delusional. This man will never win a GE and is setting Labour and the Left in general back by decades. By supporting Jeremy Corbyn, you cannot claim to care about the working classes. Corbyn's leadership virtually guarantees a Conservative government - and not just any Conservative government - but a total disaster of a Conservative government.
I hope Dan Hodges is right re 30 shadow ministers resigning. Labour needs to take this opportunity to get rid of Corbyn.
Well, still closer than I had thought it would be - the question is if that hardens or softens at all.
Quite. I thought it would be more like 65/35 YES/NO.
Sturgeon won't risk it on these numbers. SO FAR.
Article 50 hasn't been engaged yet. A large number of people in my social media circle are still at the bargaining stage and don't really believe actual brexit is going to happen yet.
Also people are hoping for some kind of indy-lite reverse Greenland, where we stay in the EU, so they don't have to make the decision on indy.
I personally don't understand how anyone can blame the 'moderates' for resigning today/tonight. If you give a damn about the Labour party, the working class, and the people of this country you will want Jeremy Corbyn gone and you will be supporting all the shadow cabinet ministers who have put two fingers up at Corbyn. Let me say who is damaging the electability of the Labour party: Jeremy Corbyn and his associates. This man is one of the biggest threats to British democracy at this moment in time. His leadership and the sheer competence that has ensued from it is preventing this country from being a functioning democracy right now. HM Opposition is an absolute total joke, and I have to be honest and say I consider Corbyn supporters to be totally delusional. This man will never win a GE and is setting Labour and the Left in general back by decades. By supporting Jeremy Corbyn, you cannot claim to care about the working classes. Corbyn's leadership virtually guarantees a Conservative government - and not just any Conservative government - but a total disaster of a Conservative government.
I hope Dan Hodges is right re 30 shadow ministers resigning. Labour needs to take this opportunity to get rid of Corbyn.
Corbyn is done I *think*. One way or another, you can't have so many MPs refusing to serve you and operate. As long as they hold their nerve (and they way they've worded their resignations makes it impossible for them to serve under him again) someone is going to tell Corbyn to back down.
Corbyn's leadership virtually guarantees a Conservative government - and not just any Conservative government - but a total disaster of a Conservative government.
Whereas a bunch of people who thought cheerleading for the EU, right up until the day it was rejected by the country, would have the political nous to prevent a Conservative government?
So many of these arguments are based on the premise that it's *UNDENIABLE* that the "moderates" are more electable than Corbyn. That is just not obvious to me or many other members, at all.
What next? Andrew Roberts? Mary Beard? That guy who does the books about Victorian sewers? There is no hope for the Crown.
The UK is finished now. Maybe it was living on borrowed time but those that voted Leave have killed the Union. Live with it!!!!
If one constituent part of the Union can't accept that there will be occasions when the other parts outvote it, then indeed it is finished.
That has indeed been the problem for some time. Most so in Scotland, but in other parts as well, not willing to be outvoted or taken along by the others. I'd have been fine if the Scottish vote was kept us in, but I've no doubt others would not have been.
By publishing his manifesto in a (very lucrative) Telegraph column Boris has managed to look even more of a klutz and piss off a whole new bunch of people.
British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.
I assume the EU will want a reciprocal arrangement ?
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the party tons of voters.
In the beginning I was an Yvette Cooper supporter and their own actions forced me to support Corbyn in order to kick their buts, time and time again they are infuriating me so much that I simply want them expelled.
Those people have proved that they do not and should not belong to the Labour party.
I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a bit longer than that because, while I disagreed what what they did, I thought they had good intentions and were just doing what they thought was in the interests of getting Labour elected.
But no more. Their utter obsession with the EU, even after it's been shown that that obsession will lose Labour a huge chunk of their core vote, shows that the "moderates" simply have ideological obsessions of their own -- they would rather Labour lose on a Europhile platform than win on a Eurosceptic platform.
It is not so much enthusiasm for the EU, the coup is happening now because it had to be after the referendum, but it has been on the cards much longer. It could just as easily been over Trident or Syria.
The problem is not so much politics, as the complete ineffectiveness of Corbyn in everything he does.
Again though, saying "Corbyn is ineffective" is not the same as proving "someone else would be more effective than Corbyn".
It is not at all clear to me that Labour MPs who misread the public mood so badly on the EU (which is to say, pretty much every Labour MP bar Corbyn and his hardcore followers, plus a few mavericks like Stuart/Field/Hoey) have the political judgement to be effective leaders of a political party.
They need someone more effective AND more in tune with their voters especially outside London AND who their members will vote for. I am not sure who is in the middle of that Venn Diagram?
((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 6m6 minutes ago Boris: "It is said that those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration. I do not believe that is so". Dear God.
So three polls in taken just after the EU ref. ranging from 52-59 for Yes.
Taking our experience from the last referendums I say that No will start taking the lead again in about a month or two.
Hardly a runaway Yes vote is it? The media are going big on Scotland because it adds to the frenzy that keeps them in business - and Nicola, of course, is always willing to oblige with inflammatory stuff. Can't help thinking Scotland is a storm in a tea cup.
I personally don't understand how anyone can blame the 'moderates' for resigning today/tonight. If you give a damn about the Labour party, the working class, and the people of this country you will want Jeremy Corbyn gone and you will be supporting all the shadow cabinet ministers who have put two fingers up at Corbyn. Let me say who is damaging the electability of the Labour party: Jeremy Corbyn and his associates. This man is one of the biggest threats to British democracy at this moment in time. His leadership and the sheer competence that has ensued from it is preventing this country from being a functioning democracy right now. HM Opposition is an absolute total joke, and I have to be honest and say I consider Corbyn supporters to be totally delusional. This man will never win a GE and is setting Labour and the Left in general back by decades. By supporting Jeremy Corbyn, you cannot claim to care about the working classes. Corbyn's leadership virtually guarantees a Conservative government - and not just any Conservative government - but a total disaster of a Conservative government.
I hope Dan Hodges is right re 30 shadow ministers resigning. Labour needs to take this opportunity to get rid of Corbyn.
Corbyn is done I *think*. One way or another, you can't have so many MPs refusing to serve you and operate. As long as they hold their nerve (and they way they've worded their resignations makes it impossible for them to serve under him again) someone is going to tell Corbyn to back down.
He won't go. He'll view this as an opportunity to purge and purify the Labour Party.
So in summary: 1. We voted to leave but Cameron won't push the button having quit 2. We have no government as Cameron remains as lame duck PM and the Tories are too busy arguing about who voted for what to start a leadership contest properly 3. We have no opposition as the Labour front bench consists of Corbyn, a scouser waiting to be crowned mayor of Manchester and Diana Abbot 4. We have millions of citizens ready to take to the streets if the referendum isn't overturned 5. We have millions of citizens ready to take to the streets if there is any u turn from whatever they think they were offered if we Vote Leave 6. We have thousands (?) of citizens about to start serious race riots because they can't understand why operation deport the darkie hasn't started already
Now, if you were an investor, what would your instinct have you do tomorrow....?
I personally don't understand how anyone can blame the 'moderates' for resigning today/tonight. If you give a damn about the Labour party, the working class, and the people of this country you will want Jeremy Corbyn gone and you will be supporting all the shadow cabinet ministers who have put two fingers up at Corbyn. Let me say who is damaging the electability of the Labour party: Jeremy Corbyn and his associates. This man is one of the biggest threats to British democracy at this moment in time. His leadership and the sheer competence that has ensued from it is preventing this country from being a functioning democracy right now. HM Opposition is an absolute total joke, and I have to be honest and say I consider Corbyn supporters to be totally delusional. This man will never win a GE and is setting Labour and the Left in general back by decades. By supporting Jeremy Corbyn, you cannot claim to care about the working classes. Corbyn's leadership virtually guarantees a Conservative government - and not just any Conservative government - but a total disaster of a Conservative government.
Hands up how many wish the LDs had not been destroyed right now? Granted, we wouldn't be leaving the EU which for many is a plus, but general democratic governance wise, day to day, things were rosy with them around.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Once we quit the EU (if we do) Britain should suggest free movement between the UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.
Why the F not? Four rich English speaking democracies, all under the Crown. Let's do it.
Because they won't want the unwashed British landing on their shores. Utterly utterly ridiculous. Get a grip man.
The Canadians especially favour free movement between the UK, Canada, Australia and NZ.
We will need a new "national project" when we leave the EU. This should be it. Sadly an actual Federation is probably impossible, but yes, Free Movement between the Old Dominions and the UK. Whyever not?
It wasn't a Dominion at the time of the Statute of Westminster of 1931. India and Pakistan became Dominions in 1947, upon independence. India became a republic in 1950, and Pakistan in 1956.
@NickThornsby: Immigration nothing to do with vote to leave says Boris. That'll be why Vote Leave never mentioned it then. https://t.co/CA9TyOnclr
You cannot be serious! Jeezus!
I have always considered this guy to be a complete and utter tw*t - this just reinforces it!!
The article confirms that Boris lied about immigration and lied about £350 million a week extra for the NHS. I wonder what that means for his promises about higher wages, VAT cuts, cheaper housing and no tax rises. Hmmm.
Quite. Until recently, I used to give the "moderates" the benefit of the doubt, but no longer. If they were really concerned about Labour's electability, they would be reflecting on the fact that one of the key parts of their philosophy (pro-Europeanism) was just rejected by the country on Thursday, and coming to terms with the obvious fact that sticking with it will lose the .
I lost any respect for them last summer when months before the vote came in where already publicly stating that they will try to overthrow Corbyn as soon as possible.
In the beginning I was an Yvette Cooper supporter and their own actions forced me to support Corbyn in order to kick their buts, time and time again they are infuriating me so much that I simply want them expelled.
Those people have proved that they do not and should not belong to the Labour party.
I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a bit longer than that because, while I disagreed what what they did, I thought they had good intentions and were just doing what they thought was in the interests of getting Labour elected.
But no more. Their utter obsession with the EU, even after it's been shown that that obsession will lose Labour a huge chunk of their core vote, shows that the "moderates" simply have ideological obsessions of their own -- they would rather Labour lose on a Europhile platform than win on a Eurosceptic platform.
It is not so much enthusiasm for the EU, the coup is happening now because it had to be after the referendum, but it has been on the cards much longer. It could just as easily been over Trident or Syria.
The problem is not so much politics, as the complete ineffectiveness of Corbyn in everything he does.
Again though, saying "Corbyn is ineffective" is not the same as proving "someone else would be more effective than Corbyn".
It is not at all clear to me that Labour MPs who misread the public mood so badly on the EU (which is to say, pretty much every Labour MP bar Corbyn and his hardcore followers, plus a few mavericks like Stuart/Field/Hoey) have the political judgement to be effective leaders of a political party.
Liz Kendall was clear last summer that she wanted to reduce mygration.
Well, still closer than I had thought it would be - the question is if that hardens or softens at all.
To date, none of the gains that Yes has made have been shown to be soft. I was hoping it would be nearer 60% but 55% is a reasonable starting position as Sturgeon begins the work of building a consensus coalition for Independence.
What's most important is that it is well beyond margin of error and a real increase. I can see it building further as the chaos at Westminster continues and Sturgeon gets a free hand in Scotland.
No offence to Charles, an arch Brexiteer, but unless we know who his contact was (which reasonably he won't divulge), why should we believe this account?
A Brit who has spent more than a decade in Paris mixing with some of the most influential people there (and is fluent in French). By virtue of who he represents, although he is not in the inner sanctum, he has access to the outer sanctum.
It is a mixture of conversations, analysis and logical reasoning - I trust his views and judgement on France (less so on Britain).
But it is worth what it is worth - the word of a well connected individual (him not me), but nothing more.
What next? Andrew Roberts? Mary Beard? That guy who does the books about Victorian sewers? There is no hope for the Crown.
The UK is finished now. Maybe it was living on borrowed time but those that voted Leave have killed the Union. Live with it!!!!
If one constituent part of the Union can't accept that there will be occasions when the other parts outvote it, then indeed it is finished.
That has indeed been the problem for some time. Most so in Scotland, but in other parts as well, not willing to be outvoted or taken along by the others. I'd have been fine if the Scottish vote was kept us in, but I've no doubt others would not have been.
We're at the start of a peaceful political revolution. None of us can be sure where it will end up.
Comments
Should be worth a bob or two on rarity value alone.
George Osborne is so hated he could sink their own campaign with them.
If they want to give a top job to a Remainer as reconciliation, there are many other better options.
I am going to scweam and scwean and scwean
That's one Brexit promise I'd happily see reneged upon.
"Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/
The word of a PBer is SACRED !!!
No PBers would ever post made up bollox or fifth hand tittle-tattle.
British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer.
A true statesman is needed to find a way out of this mess.
But no more. Their utter obsession with the EU, even after it's been shown that that obsession will lose Labour a huge chunk of their core vote, shows that the "moderates" simply have ideological obsessions of their own -- they would rather Labour lose on a Europhile platform than win on a Eurosceptic platform.
Ive gone all right wing now though!!
Taking our experience from the last referendums I say that No will start taking the lead again in about a month or two.
By publishing his manifesto in a (very lucrative) Telegraph column Boris has managed to look even more of a klutz and piss off a whole new bunch of people.
The problem is not so much politics, as the complete ineffectiveness of Corbyn in everything he does.
I want armed services capable of defending our country against any quarter. That's all I'm interested in.
Hammond?
Is he serious ?!
Boris less time reading why @rcs1000 voted to leave and more time 'oop north.
@NickThornsby: Immigration nothing to do with vote to leave says Boris. That'll be why Vote Leave never mentioned it then. https://t.co/CA9TyOnclr
And funny how that £350 million has disappeared.
I have always considered this guy to be a complete and utter tw*t - this just reinforces it!!
Wonder what tomorrow brings?
I have Toby down for the 10am resignation slot.
Goodnight
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/angela-eagle-jeremy-corbyn-leadership_uk_5770426ee4b0d2571149dcd4
It is not at all clear to me that Labour MPs who misread the public mood so badly on the EU (which is to say, pretty much every Labour MP bar Corbyn and his hardcore followers, plus a few mavericks like Stuart/Field/Hoey) have the political judgement to be effective leaders of a political party.
Just four hours ago, Bloomberg was running a story about how P + PSOE had probably won a majority.
The PP was forecast to drop 4 seats, and Citizens to lose 12. The Right wing block was expected to be down 16 seats. (I.e. 10% of their total). The reality? The block gained 6 seats. The polls were 5% out on the PP vote share, and 3% on Citizens.
According the exits, Podemos was expected to be just 3% behind the PP on 26%. Reality, they were third behind the PSOE on 22%.
Did people lie to the pollsters? Or were they just shit?
I hope Dan Hodges is right re 30 shadow ministers resigning. Labour needs to take this opportunity to get rid of Corbyn.
Damn I never knew there were so many of the buggers!.
So many of these arguments are based on the premise that it's *UNDENIABLE* that the "moderates" are more electable than Corbyn. That is just not obvious to me or many other members, at all.
Suffice to say that it involved Cameron, Admiral Byng, Anne Boleyn and Oliver Cromwell.
I assume the EU will want a reciprocal arrangement ?
Or is Boris guessing ?
((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 6m6 minutes ago
Boris: "It is said that those who voted Leave were mainly driven by anxieties about immigration. I do not believe that is so". Dear God.
And poor ones to boot.
1. We voted to leave but Cameron won't push the button having quit
2. We have no government as Cameron remains as lame duck PM and the Tories are too busy arguing about who voted for what to start a leadership contest properly
3. We have no opposition as the Labour front bench consists of Corbyn, a scouser waiting to be crowned mayor of Manchester and Diana Abbot
4. We have millions of citizens ready to take to the streets if the referendum isn't overturned
5. We have millions of citizens ready to take to the streets if there is any u turn from whatever they think they were offered if we Vote Leave
6. We have thousands (?) of citizens about to start serious race riots because they can't understand why operation deport the darkie hasn't started already
Now, if you were an investor, what would your instinct have you do tomorrow....?
They placed large bets on Remain on Betfair.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-kendall-says-she-wants-an-australian-style-points-based-immigration-system-10328214.html
What's most important is that it is well beyond margin of error and a real increase. I can see it building further as the chaos at Westminster continues and Sturgeon gets a free hand in Scotland.
At least we now know where our winnings came from!
It is a mixture of conversations, analysis and logical reasoning - I trust his views and judgement on France (less so on Britain).
But it is worth what it is worth - the word of a well connected individual (him not me), but nothing more.
Not extremely hilarious, I'll admit.