It would be a faint sign that the EU had the vaguest glimmerings why it is so unpopular in so many quarters.
But he won't resign, and their shit-show will rumble on, which must - surely - give you a faint thrill of relief that we are now out of this charade of nondemocracy.
Yes London will soon be a wasteland populated mainly by racist orcs, but at least we aren't paying for Juncker's third chauffeur.
I feel my mood has switched. I went from gin to wine. Interesting.
There is much I dislike about the EU. But I preferred dealing with its many deficiencies to watching Britain visibly shrink, as it is doing now.
I feel I lost my country on Thursday. I have to reevaluate my identity now.
My consolation is that politics for the foreseeable future is going to be compulsive viewing, like a TV documentary showing emergency surgery going wrong.
Yet in the chaos and absence of a detailed plan from the Leave side, us Remainers can step into the breach. We need to make the case for the UK to stay internationalist and engaged with Europe, as much as can be done while addressing the public's immigration worries. If we just play stroppy loser, we'll give into a vacuum where Ukippery will rule the day.
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Johnson is a traitor to the country. Even Osborne over Johnson.
You may have voted Tory before, but we definitely don't need people with that attitude supporting us.
You might prefer the moral purity of the Lib Dems.
I imagine the Tories are going to struggle to muster much support anywhere now. What do they stand for these days? Nothing resembling traditional conservatism. They've put the country's future needlessly in peril.
Hah. I always liked Clegg, I feel despite his party being ripped to shreds under his watch history will be kinder to him about how the choices seemed like the right ones at the time.
I always liked Clegg. He certainly seems better than Farron, who is now arguing the Liberal Democrats should ignore democracy and refuse to abide by the referendum result.
Yes, I understand the LibDems are unhappy at being misreported. Contrary to some of the press they are not following Lammy in suggesting that they will try and vote down the referendum. They are simply saying that their platform going forward is to get a deal that keeps the Uk as close to the EU as possible and to support our staying/rejoining depending on things pan out.
As a political move it is quite smart, since there is clearly a big and widening space in the market there, at least south of the border.
It is difficult to see where REJOINING the EU, after Brexit has happened, and with presumably none of the favourable terms currently enjoyed, would attract ANY support in the country whatsoever!
Then you don't understand the perspective of some of the young people who actually voted. Their prime focus is the work/study/travel/cultural opportunities they stand to lose, and a rejection of the type of country many on the Leave side appear to want. LibDem HQ has today been flooded with applications to join, particularly from the young. As a step towards rebuilding one of the party's pre-Clegg constituencies, its a start.
I had a look at some of the numbers on British emigrants. I'm going to assume we're being sensible; no one is talking about stopping travel, right? We've essentially opted to be like the USA. They can travel to Europe and study in Europe.
In terms of actually working, there are 1.2 million Eurobrits. 80% of them are in six countries. In all but one case, there are more of their citizens here than our citizens there, if that makes sense. Reciprocal agreements with Ireland, Spain, France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands would cover the bulk of our immediate needs.
The idea that we're a nation of itinerants is exaggerated. British emigration is primarily to Australia, USA and Canada.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
Telling the world beforehand that he wouldn't walk away without a deal is pretty much guaranteed to get you a shit deal.
As happened.
My girlfriends sister is a senior lady in the EU comms office and she cannot see for one second why they should reform, you have to be good Europeans and just shut up and integrate. That's it. No steps back, just steps forward. Cameron went it to get some kind of reform, I think he was naive in thinking that even with a massive stick being wielded like Brexit they would listen that reform was needed.
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Osborne? Do you think the membership would be willing to vote for a Remain candidate?
Unlikely - but possible if the Brexit candidate is too extreme.
Boris v May - Boris wins Fox v May - May wins
If May has spare votes will she do what Cameron did in 2005 - ie get a chunk of her supporters to vote Fox to get him into the Final ahead of Boris - but that'll depend on being comfortably above 110 MPs.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
I wonder whether the deal was actually just the only way he could square the role he knew he would have to take on during the Referendum (leaving aside the Wilson option, which for some reason he rejected) and his past of either being or pretending to be Eurosceptic. And not really aimed at the voters (hence it was hardly mentioned). All politicians need a story to tell, firstly to themselves.
As things stand people are saying a reason he lost was that his 'conversion' wasn't convincing. Without the fig leaf of the deal he would have had no clothes at all.
edit/ and on the Wilson option, I suspect this would have been a LOT harder to get away with, in these days of 24-hour media scrutiny; he would have spent the whole campaign being asked what his view was and with every speech and article he had ever written being dissected and used in the debate. Plus could he really have afforded to leave the selling job to Osborne?
It would be a faint sign that the EU had the vaguest glimmerings why it is so unpopular in so many quarters.
But he won't resign, and their shit-show will rumble on, which must - surely - give you a faint thrill of relief that we are now out of this charade of nondemocracy.
Yes London will soon be a wasteland populated mainly by racist orcs, but at least we aren't paying for Juncker's third chauffeur.
I feel my mood has switched. I went from gin to wine. Interesting.
There is much I dislike about the EU. But I preferred dealing with its many deficiencies to watching Britain visibly shrink, as it is doing now.
I feel I lost my country on Thursday. I have to reevaluate my identity now.
My consolation is that politics for the foreseeable future is going to be compulsive viewing, like a TV documentary showing emergency surgery going wrong.
Many share your feelings. I believe you'll all get over it and feel faintly silly about this. On behalf of 'your country', we won't bear a grudge.
It would be a faint sign that the EU had the vaguest glimmerings why it is so unpopular in so many quarters.
But he won't resign, and their shit-show will rumble on, which must - surely - give you a faint thrill of relief that we are now out of this charade of nondemocracy.
Yes London will soon be a wasteland populated mainly by racist orcs, but at least we aren't paying for Juncker's third chauffeur.
I feel my mood has switched. I went from gin to wine. Interesting.
There is much I dislike about the EU. But I preferred dealing with its many deficiencies to watching Britain visibly shrink, as it is doing now.
I feel I lost my country on Thursday. I have to reevaluate my identity now.
My consolation is that politics for the foreseeable future is going to be compulsive viewing, like a TV documentary showing emergency surgery going wrong.
Yet in the chaos and absence of a detailed plan from the Leave side, us Remainers can step into the breach. We need to make the case for the UK to stay internationalist and engaged with Europe, as much as can be done while addressing the public's immigration worries. If we just play stroppy loser, we'll give into a vacuum where Ukippery will rule the day.
The kippers need to have their day in the sun. The country will be sick of them soon enough.
It would be a faint sign that the EU had the vaguest glimmerings why it is so unpopular in so many quarters.
But he won't resign, and their shit-show will rumble on, which must - surely - give you a faint thrill of relief that we are now out of this charade of nondemocracy.
Yes London will soon be a wasteland populated mainly by racist orcs, but at least we aren't paying for Juncker's third chauffeur.
I feel my mood has switched. I went from gin to wine. Interesting.
There is much I dislike about the EU. But I preferred dealing with its many deficiencies to watching Britain visibly shrink, as it is doing now.
I feel I lost my country on Thursday. I have to reevaluate my identity now.
My consolation is that politics for the foreseeable future is going to be compulsive viewing, like a TV documentary showing emergency surgery going wrong.
Many share your feelings. I believe you'll all get over it and feel faintly silly about this. On behalf of 'your country', we won't bear a grudge.
You're dead wrong. I will never look at England in the same way again. The thread of allegiance has been broken.
In some ways this is the most bizarre moment of British history that I can ever remember. Feels almost like some sort of vivid dream.
Or a nightmare. A visit from the night hag, who squats on your chest.
Didn't you vote to Leave?
In order to kick the establishment?
What did you expect?
I voted to LEAVE - with great reluctance, anxiety, and sadness, as expressed on here - in expectation of the kind of plan Richard has adduced in the threader. I also expected both my government and the Brexit camp to react calmly to the result, and present their detailed policies within a few hours.
I didn't expect them to hide away. I didn't expect them to say Plan, we didn't have a plan, oh, they should have a plan, oh fuck it, let's take some crystal meth and cider.
I didn't expect Her Majesty's opposition to react to this by drinking a vat of kool aid and committing weird seppuku while their leader conducted his Shadow Cabinet meeting in a Pimlico phonebox, due to the lack of attendants.
I guess I expected too much?
You proclaimed yourself a 100% Leaver. You can't rewrite history that quickly.
Well yeah, I went from 60/40 to 100, by which I meant I had DECIDED. And I voted LEAVE
That never meant I was 100% certain it was the right thing, as any one who reads PB can attest I was having doubts and worries right up to the last couple of hours. In my normal bipolar way.
I am now feeling some Bremorse. I did not expect the reaction by all sides to be so spectacularly crap and hapless. My prime minister weeping? FFS. Man up.
If we are all reduced to gnawing bones by November I promise to crawl to Lib Dem HQ and make penance by flailing myself with highly creased pairs of Chris Huhne's trousers.
No. If it all goes to hell in a handbasket, blame the Remainders in government for maliciously causing the problems. There is absolutely no reason for there to be major problems, other than certain persons want there to be, to make a point.
Nice try but I suspect that the country is going to roundly blame Brexiters for anything and everything that follows on from last Thursday. Leave should have seen this coming and had a clear Brexiot plan of action to roll out this weekend.
Good, what we need now is to delay exit while the EU infights and try and get the best deal possible. It is brutal to say it but we now need populists to win almost everywhere, the more chaos and anti establishment parties do well the better our relative position will be
What's become of you, HYUFD? You seem to have become a bit of a revolutionary!
We have to now, Brexit occurred and we have to put national interest first and it may be horrible to say but that would include Trump winning the US presidency and Le Pen the presidency in France
Of course reading Chris Bryant's letter, one is reminded that regrettable as leaving the EU may be, there is nothing more absurd in British politics today than the fact that Jeremy Corbyn is leader of the Labour Party.
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit"
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
The Mensch appears to have taken Tim Peake's place in space... I'm totally reassured er...
Louise Mensch @LouiseMensch · 11m11 minutes ago Michael Gove chairing @BorisJohnson campaign should put to rest all that scaremongering from Remain that Boris was lying about #Brexit.
No answer as to why Leave shouldn't try to implement their own manifesto?
Just a stab in the dark but because they aren't the government?
So the manifesto was a sham. Another Leave lie then.
How can they implement a manifesto if they aren't the government?
Perhaps you can explain.
They were the Official Leave Campaign. Not some bloke in the pub mouthing off.
The British public has every right to believe that if they voted Leave, because they agreed with the manifesto of the Official Leave Campaign, then that manifesto (the one produced by the Official Leave Campaign) should be honoured.
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Osborne? If he actually considers Osborne an option, your minister should abstain. He's clearly on the wrong planet.
------
Do you think the membership would be willing to vote for a Remain candidate?
The Minister doesn't say that he considers Osborne is _his_ option but it seems that Osborne still [remarkably] have sufficient support within the Parliamentary Party that he hasn't been ruled out.
If any more of the Brexit claims [esp re NHS/Immigration] that Johnson made unravel and, if by September, it's clear that the wheels have fallen off the economy [?collapse in property transactions / relocations of banks from London / other economic shocks], then I think the Party members will vote for the person best able to win the election whether they are Remainers or Brexiters. Three months is a long time in Politics.
A high proportion of Party Members are elected councillors and they understand that, in politics, there are no points for second place. Winning is everything. And for that you need a Winner.
No answer as to why Leave shouldn't try to implement their own manifesto?
Just a stab in the dark but because they aren't the government?
So the manifesto was a sham. Another Leave lie then.
How can they implement a manifesto if they aren't the government?
Perhaps you can explain.
It's not about implementing anything. It is about someone (Boris, Gove, even Farage) standing up, thanking people for their support, and setting out in a speech (or article) some sort of road map for what they propose we should do next. Covering off the key questions about the shape of deal they want and the process steps and timetable they think we should go through.
The thinking/deciding bit they should have done before they went off persuading everyone to jump off the cliff, and the proposing/communication bit is about leadership (and reassurance) - the quality that has suddenly vanished almost entirely from our political elite, at least south of the border.
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
If the Europeans get really shirty we can just restrict the intelligence & security feeds to them.
It would be no word of a lie that it would leave a noticeable gap.
We wouldn't do that. It would be grossly irresponsible. We honour our 2nd party agreements.
We don't have to be at loggerheads with the EU. We've had 43 years of entanglement. We can't just do a "and with one bound they were free" ffs.
We just need the aftershocks to die down, people's egos to deflate and then the politicians can start sorting out a reasonable modus vivendi.
I honestly can't believe the things I'm reading here tonight...it's been three days! It's not going to be either swift or easy.
I said (and you may check!) before the referendum vote that my biggest worry was the calibre of the politicians we had to implement a Brexit. I'm not impressed thus far, but will still counsel patience.
Good, what we need now is to delay exit while the EU infights and try and get the best deal possible. It is brutal to say it but we now need populists to win almost everywhere, the more chaos and anti establishment parties do well the better our relative position will be
What's become of you, HYUFD? You seem to have become a bit of a revolutionary!
We have to now, Brexit occurred and we have to put national interest first and it may be horrible to say but that would include Trump winning the US presidency and Le Pen the presidency in France
Hmm. German foreign minister calls for USA trops to leave Eastern Europe - says their presence is provocative.
I guess he prefers Russian troops instead?
I believe the German FM has recently visited Putin and made friendly noises. The Germans were always ambivalent about Russia - they would like to do more trade with them in spite of historically hiding behind Uncle Sam's skirts when the Ruskies threatened.
Brexit increases Russian influence, or rather reduces our influence in the Continent to Russia's benefit. Not WW3, but a nudge in the needle toward the forces of anti-democracy.
I don't see how ceasing to prevent Germany's wish (if they have one) of being friends with a huge country they share a landmass with is anti-democracy.
The huge country you talk about is a revanchist, aggressive, anti-democratic regime.
I think Corbyn clinging on is not exactly the actions of this so called dignified man I keep hearing about. We all saw his character in that vice documentary. Not.pretty.
Corbyn is genuinely unintelligent. He does not understand the damage his leadership - or, more precisely, the lack of it - is doing. It's all going way over his head.
It would be a faint sign that the EU had the vaguest glimmerings why it is so unpopular in so many quarters.
But he won't resign, and their shit-show will rumble on, which must - surely - give you a faint thrill of relief that we are now out of this charade of nondemocracy.
Yes London will soon be a wasteland populated mainly by racist orcs, but at least we aren't paying for Juncker's third chauffeur.
I feel my mood has switched. I went from gin to wine. Interesting.
There is much I dislike about the EU. But I preferred dealing with its many deficiencies to watching Britain visibly shrink, as it is doing now.
I feel I lost my country on Thursday. I have to reevaluate my identity now.
My consolation is that politics for the foreseeable future is going to be compulsive viewing, like a TV documentary showing emergency surgery going wrong.
Many share your feelings. I believe you'll all get over it and feel faintly silly about this. On behalf of 'your country', we won't bear a grudge.
You're dead wrong. I will never look at England in the same way again. The thread of allegiance has been broken.
No answer as to why Leave shouldn't try to implement their own manifesto?
Just a stab in the dark but because they aren't the government?
So the manifesto was a sham. Another Leave lie then.
How can they implement a manifesto if they aren't the government?
Perhaps you can explain.
It's not about implementing anything. It is about someone (Boris, Gove, even Farage) standing up, thanking people for their support, and setting out in a speech (or article) some sort of road map for what they propose we should do next. Covering off the key questions about the shape of deal they want and the process steps and timetable they think we should go through.
The thinking/deciding bit they should have done before they went off persuading everyone to jump off the cliff, and the proposing/communication bit is about leadership (and reassurance) - the quality that has suddenly vanished almost entirely from our political elite, at least south of the border.
It was spelled out on here many times in advance that there was no need to immediately trigger Article 50 and that there would be a transition period from Dave to replacement.
I'm unsure why people think everything must be done within 24 hours.
I think Corbyn clinging on is not exactly the actions of this so called dignified man I keep hearing about. We all saw his character in that vice documentary. Not.pretty.
Sounds like he's tired and emotional. Hopefully a good night's sleep and a chat with Watson in the morning will make him see sense.
Agree re Labour needing to bring the country back together.
We don't need a class warrior we need an inspiring uniting figure to restore our faith in our country.
There is, in fact, a huge open goal for Labour here.
The Tories have fallen apart. The PM is literally in hiding after visiting great ruin upon the nation. A rival Old Etonian wants us to give him The Precious.
FFS a decent Labour Party would get 400 seats, at the next GE, with a proper leader. Instead, thanks to an insane membership and the likes of NPXMP, they are led by Lenin from Lidl, supported by actual IRA activists.
*bitter laughter*
Why would a social democratic Europhile get 400 seats in a country which has just voted to leave the European Union?
Corbyn is genuinely unintelligent. He does not understand the damage his leadership - or, more precisely, the lack of it - is doing. It's all going way over his head.
Funny Bryant couldn't keep his own constituency from voting Leave yet he is complaining about Corbyn......at least he got his remain vote out. Same for hodge.
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Johnson is a traitor to the country. Even Osborne over Johnson.
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
Good, what we need now is to delay exit while the EU infights and try and get the best deal possible. It is brutal to say it but we now need populists to win almost everywhere, the more chaos and anti establishment parties do well the better our relative position will be
What's become of you, HYUFD? You seem to have become a bit of a revolutionary!
We have to now, Brexit occurred and we have to put national interest first and it may be horrible to say but that would include Trump winning the US presidency and Le Pen the presidency in France
Sounds like you have eschewed the Norway or Switzerland or Canada model and have plumped instead for a direct move to the North Korean one.
No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
My point, however, was that very few countries have true sovereignty. North Korea is one. Aside from them, it is compromises and we have now exited a group where compromises where required, but which gave us unambiguous benefits, and are now in a position where we don't know what compromises we will have to make and to what benefit.
The electorate clearly decided the benefits were outweighed by the negatives, the regulations and directives etc. There is giving up some sovereignty and giving up sovereignty
Yes, I agree with this. Not that it should worry us Brits, or that we have a say any more (hmmm, that does feel quite nice, all that ghastly EU thing is OVER...) but Juncker by any account has failed. The second biggest EU nation left on his watch. He fucked up. It's as bad as it gets.
Equally, an entire generation of EU politicians failed. Brexit is bad bad bad for Europe. Potentially worse for them, and their project, than it is for us.
They should have realised the danger, and given us something on Free Movement.
But that brings us back to Cameron. Why was his deal so shit? How bad a politician is he? "I'd like to be prime minister because I think I'd be quite good at it". It turned out he was about as bad at being prime minister as it is possible to imagine.
I wonder how he feels now. Given his background he must be close to suicidality.
His deal was poor because as far as the EU was concerned he should have nothing, nothing at all. What he got was due to any skills he had at negotiating. To criticise him for a poor deal is to assume there was a better one behind door number two, just waiting for some hard work to get. There wasn't.
What I was told today was:
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
Wow, if that had come from anyone but you I'd be pointing and laughing. If that's true...omg Cameron.
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Osborne? If he actually considers Osborne an option, your minister should abstain. He's clearly on the wrong planet.
------
Do you think the membership would be willing to vote for a Remain candidate?
The Minister doesn't say that he considers Osborne is _his_ option but it seems that Osborne still [remarkably] have sufficient support within the Parliamentary Party that he hasn't been ruled out.
If any more of the Brexit claims [esp re NHS/Immigration] that Johnson made unravel and, if by September, it's clear that the wheels have fallen off the economy [?collapse in property transactions / relocations of banks from London / other economic shocks], then I think the Party members will vote for the person best able to win the election whether they are Remainers or Brexiters. Three months is a long time in Politics.
A high proportion of Party Members are elected councillors and they understand that, in politics, there are no points for second place. Winning is everything. And for that you need a Winner.
Just sayin.
No Brexit claims have unravelled. And won't unravel until we've left the EU, Unlike Osborne's terror budget. When's that due?
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
I would be happy with the peoples chancellor but he wouldn't get on the ballot as he would need 35 MPs and would be too likely to win for the PLP.
Good, what we need now is to delay exit while the EU infights and try and get the best deal possible. It is brutal to say it but we now need populists to win almost everywhere, the more chaos and anti establishment parties do well the better our relative position will be
What's become of you, HYUFD? You seem to have become a bit of a revolutionary!
We have to now, Brexit occurred and we have to put national interest first and it may be horrible to say but that would include Trump winning the US presidency and Le Pen the presidency in France
Sounds like you have eschewed the Norway or Switzerland or Canada model and have plumped instead for a direct move to the North Korean one.
No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
My point, however, was that very few countries have true sovereignty. North Korea is one. Aside from them, it is compromises and we have now exited a group where compromises where required, but which gave us unambiguous benefits, and are now in a position where we don't know what compromises we will have to make and to what benefit.
The electorate clearly decided the benefits were outweighed by the negatives, the regulations and directives etc. There is giving up some sovereignty and giving up sovereignty
A large chunk of them just crossed a box they thought said "stop all immigration"
With the results basically all in, it looks like the Right block (PP + C) is up 6 to 7 seats, with the Left wing block (PSOE + P) down 5 to 6, and the nationalists down 1.
A left wing coalition is essentially impossible as it would not backed by either the Canarians (bloody minded centre right bunch who've never blown things up) or the Basques (bloody minded centre right bunch who allegedly did used to blow things up).
It had previously looked like a PP + C coalition would require at least the consent of the PSOE, but that no longer looks absolutely essential. There'll be a few days of negotiation, but Rajoy has massively outperformed expectations, and there is little doubt the PP will be in charge in Spain for the next few years.
Someone is thinking it all through, which is reassuring (would actually have liked it to be a bit longer).
Two comments.
While in many ways as important and profound, I am slightly uncomfortable with your use of the military analogy of Afghan, Iraq and Libya. Plenty of people died in those conflicts, and just because as you say, the post-"conflict" phases might not have been worked out in each case including here, I don't think it wholly appropriate to invoke the military operations.
Also, although people say they would be happy with EEA/EFTA, I am curious to know how the question was formulated. I think you conflate this preference with the clear view on immigration (link) which people expressed.
But a good piece, many thanks.
Thanks Topping.
Obviously my intention was not to belittle the deaths on all sides in the conflicts I mentioned. It was simply the fact that what was so notable about those conflicts - perhaps unlike any other I have read of before - was the lack of the exit strategy, the basic idea that it wasn't necessary to really think about what comes next because everything is bound to work out okay as long as you win. It does strike me that this appears to have been the principle followed by both camps in the referendum. It is a case of winning the war but losing the peace.
If the Europeans get really shirty we can just restrict the intelligence & security feeds to them.
It would be no word of a lie that it would leave a noticeable gap.
We wouldn't do that. It would be grossly irresponsible. We honour our 2nd party agreements.
We don't have to be at loggerheads with the EU. We've had 43 years of entanglement. We can't just do a "and with one bound they were free" ffs.
We just need the aftershocks to die down, people's egos to deflate and then the politicians can start sorting out a reasonable modus vivendi.
I honestly can't believe the things I'm reading here tonight...it's been three days! It's not going to be either swift or easy.
I said (and you may check!) before the referendum vote that my biggest worry was the calibre of the politicians we had to implement a Brexit. I'm not impressed thus far, but will still counsel patience.
No John we probably won't but anyone who gets this idea we have nothing of heavy weight to bring to the table of negotiation is kidding themselves
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Johnson is a traitor to the country. Even Osborne over Johnson.
52% of us are "traitors to the country."
Nope. Not at all. People voted for a bunch of reasons, and I believe largely for what they thought to be in their interests and the interests of their country. But you know and we all know that Johnson never truly believed in Brexit. Boris only believes in himself.
Cameron must be gone within the week, leave must be made to face up to their promises. Forget labour for now, it's a side show, with the lack of any idea of how Brexit is supposed to happen the country will continue to fall apart.
If leave are not ready and need Cameron to prop things up in the mean time or if Cameron is trying to buy time himself neither are acceptable.
And labour? FFS get a grip, you're not allowing the above to be the main focus, you're letting them off the hook and allowing things to drift. Stop the navel gazing narcissism.
Sigh, and to think on Thursday morning we had a country that was running along pretty smoothly.
So, aside from McD and Diane, who hasn't resigned? I mean seriously, there's no one of any substance left at all. On top of that, Corbyn will now have to suffer the indignity of naming a new cabinet, then repeatedly having to tweak it as yet more resignations arrive on his desk.
With the results basically all in, it looks like the Right block (PP + C) is up 6 to 7 seats, with the Left wing block (PSOE + P) down 5 to 6, and the nationalists down 1.
A left wing coalition is essentially impossible as it would not backed by either the Canarians (bloody minded centre right bunch who've never blown things up) or the Basques (bloody minded centre right bunch who allegedly did used to blow things up).
It had previously looked like a PP + C coalition would require at least the consent of the PSOE, but that no longer looks absolutely essential. There'll be a few days of negotiation, but Rajoy has massively outperformed expectations, and there is little doubt the PP will be in charge in Spain for the next few years.
Edit to add: Podemos? WTF? One of the exits had them only 3% behind the PP in clear second. They are 11% adrift in third. Worst exit poll performance ever.
Senior Minister [but not Sec of State - level] just canvassed my opinion over The Choice to be made in Parliament: Johnson, May or [seriously] Osborne.
Johnson is a traitor to the country. Even Osborne over Johnson.
52% of us are "traitors to the country."
Nope. Not at all. People voted for a bunch of reasons, and I believe largely for what they thought to be in their interests and the interests of their country. But you know and we all know that Johnson never truly believed in Brexit. Boris only believes in himself.
Boris understands 30 pieces of silver. He sold his soul for political advancement. I hope he never becomes leader... Anyone but Boris..
With the results basically all in, it looks like the Right block (PP + C) is up 6 to 7 seats, with the Left wing block (PSOE + P) down 5 to 6, and the nationalists down 1.
A left wing coalition is essentially impossible as it would not backed by either the Canarians (bloody minded centre right bunch who've never blown things up) or the Basques (bloody minded centre right bunch who allegedly did used to blow things up).
It had previously looked like a PP + C coalition would require at least the consent of the PSOE, but that no longer looks absolutely essential. There'll be a few days of negotiation, but Rajoy has massively outperformed expectations, and there is little doubt the PP will be in charge in Spain for the next few years.
Yep. But no free hand to further damage relations with Barcelona, thankfully.
Tom Watson needs to put an end to this farce. A dozen have quit, and more will follow. I supported Corbyn but whilst I support his policy platform I don't support the half-arsed attempts to lead, the lack of strategy and basic political nous.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
Absolutely - the left could put up another candidate. The choice does not have to be Corbyn or a "Blairite".
I would be happy with the peoples chancellor but he wouldn't get on the ballot as he would need 35 MPs and would be too likely to win for the PLP.
Thought our party believed in democracy
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges 37m37 minutes ago Understand at least 30 shadow ministers set to resign tomorrow.
Comments
Harsh scoreline for the Hungarians.
In terms of actually working, there are 1.2 million Eurobrits. 80% of them are in six countries. In all but one case, there are more of their citizens here than our citizens there, if that makes sense. Reciprocal agreements with Ireland, Spain, France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands would cover the bulk of our immediate needs.
The idea that we're a nation of itinerants is exaggerated. British emigration is primarily to Australia, USA and Canada.
*edit gibberish removal *
Cameron went it to get some kind of reform, I think he was naive in thinking that even with a massive stick being wielded like Brexit they would listen that reform was needed.
Boris v May - Boris wins
Fox v May - May wins
If May has spare votes will she do what Cameron did in 2005 - ie get a chunk of her supporters to vote Fox to get him into the Final ahead of Boris - but that'll depend on being comfortably above 110 MPs.
And Podemos: what happened? They were supposed to be running the PP close, and they've ended up 10% behind them, and in third place.
As things stand people are saying a reason he lost was that his 'conversion' wasn't convincing. Without the fig leaf of the deal he would have had no clothes at all.
edit/ and on the Wilson option, I suspect this would have been a LOT harder to get away with, in these days of 24-hour media scrutiny; he would have spent the whole campaign being asked what his view was and with every speech and article he had ever written being dissected and used in the debate. Plus could he really have afforded to leave the selling job to Osborne?
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/747169543387250689
https://twitter.com/alanferrier/status/747167302853009412
Perhaps you can explain.
http://www.themangotree.org/
I imagine he might even approve.
PS I have no connection with Russia.
We have a stand-off between the bulk of the PLP, Progress and perhaps 80s members on one side, and the rest of the PLP, Momentum, the entire TU movement and the bulk of the membership on the other. What will happen is simple - the PLP will declare UDI, and will take their 80k members to form Progressive Labour.
We're supposed to be waiting for the Tories to split, not Labour. The party is bigger than any member. For the good of the party Corbyn must recognise his basic failings and go.
It would be no word of a lie that it would leave a noticeable gap.
And how many understood that that would mean allowing Poles, Romanians and Lithuanians to retain their existing rights to live and work in Britain?
Talking of which, has anyone got rough figures for how foreigners voted in the recent British referendum? These include Australians, Canadians, Indians and other Commonwealth citizens, as well as Irish people.
If Britain leaves the EU, British people will lose our EU citizenship. We will lose our freedom of movement in the EU and our rights to live and work in the EU. Frankly I think that is a matter for British people to decide, not for foreigners whose citizenship and rights will not be affected one way or the other. They themselves will either stay EU citizens - Cypriots, Maltese, Irish - or stay without EU citizenship - Australians, Canadians, Indians, New Zealanders, South Africans, etc. What were they doing on the franchise?
Perhaps you can explain.
PSOE have madevgains in the Senate, I think.
PP/Cs have a decent shot now.
Louise Mensch @LouiseMensch · 11m11 minutes ago
Michael Gove chairing @BorisJohnson campaign should put to rest all that scaremongering from Remain that Boris was lying about #Brexit.
Is a shame I had a truly awesome thread lined up.
Pure clickbait headline, but it was awesome.
Damn all you shadow cabinet resigners
The British public has every right to believe that if they voted Leave, because they agreed with the manifesto of the Official Leave Campaign, then that manifesto (the one produced by the Official Leave Campaign) should be honoured.
There's Corbyn's political obituary, right there....
If any more of the Brexit claims [esp re NHS/Immigration] that Johnson made unravel and, if by September, it's clear that the wheels have fallen off the economy [?collapse in property transactions / relocations of banks from London / other economic shocks], then I think the Party members will vote for the person best able to win the election whether they are Remainers or Brexiters. Three months is a long time in Politics.
A high proportion of Party Members are elected councillors and they understand that, in politics, there are no points for second place. Winning is everything. And for that you need a Winner.
Just sayin.
The thinking/deciding bit they should have done before they went off persuading everyone to jump off the cliff, and the proposing/communication bit is about leadership (and reassurance) - the quality that has suddenly vanished almost entirely from our political elite, at least south of the border.
We don't have to be at loggerheads with the EU. We've had 43 years of entanglement. We can't just do a "and with one bound they were free" ffs.
We just need the aftershocks to die down, people's egos to deflate and then the politicians can start sorting out a reasonable modus vivendi.
I honestly can't believe the things I'm reading here tonight...it's been three days! It's not going to be either swift or easy.
I said (and you may check!) before the referendum vote that my biggest worry was the calibre of the politicians we had to implement a Brexit. I'm not impressed thus far, but will still counsel patience.
Please stop wasting everyone's time with this shit - you're plenty intelligent enough to post a genuine contribution to the debate.
"You are a cnut. Oh, by the way, thanks."
POLL ALERT An Indy Ref 2? New phone polling 25/06 for @Daily_Record & @DailyMirror coming at 10.30pm Follow @davieclegg for initial release.
Big ups for regaining a modicum of stoicism though.
I'm unsure why people think everything must be done within 24 hours.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/76608/full-statement-jeremy-corbyn-tells-labour-rebels
1. Before the negotiations, France's communicated position to the UK was "you can have anything you want - within reason"
2. They expected negotiations to last at least 6 months
3. Cameron only allocated 3 days to discussions
4. And he spent most of those 3 days whining about how hard he was having to work!
They are angry because they think this was avoidable and they blame Cameron personally.
Thought our party believed in democracy
With the results basically all in, it looks like the Right block (PP + C) is up 6 to 7 seats, with the Left wing block (PSOE + P) down 5 to 6, and the nationalists down 1.
A left wing coalition is essentially impossible as it would not backed by either the Canarians (bloody minded centre right bunch who've never blown things up) or the Basques (bloody minded centre right bunch who allegedly did used to blow things up).
It had previously looked like a PP + C coalition would require at least the consent of the PSOE, but that no longer looks absolutely essential. There'll be a few days of negotiation, but Rajoy has massively outperformed expectations, and there is little doubt the PP will be in charge in Spain for the next few years.
Obviously my intention was not to belittle the deaths on all sides in the conflicts I mentioned. It was simply the fact that what was so notable about those conflicts - perhaps unlike any other I have read of before - was the lack of the exit strategy, the basic idea that it wasn't necessary to really think about what comes next because everything is bound to work out okay as long as you win. It does strike me that this appears to have been the principle followed by both camps in the referendum. It is a case of winning the war but losing the peace.
George Osborne will tomorrow make his first public appearance since the EU referendum result was announced.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/george-osborne/news/76607/george-osborne-break-silence
If leave are not ready and need Cameron to prop things up in the mean time or if Cameron is trying to buy time himself neither are acceptable.
And labour? FFS get a grip, you're not allowing the above to be the main focus, you're letting them off the hook and allowing things to drift. Stop the navel gazing narcissism.
Sigh, and to think on Thursday morning we had a country that was running along pretty smoothly.
59% of an enraged Scotland has expressed a desire for Indy.
Mapgate.
Dear me.
In other news, Berger seems very quiet. For someone who normally isn't.
Boris understands 30 pieces of silver. He sold his soul for political advancement. I hope he never becomes leader... Anyone but Boris..
Understand at least 30 shadow ministers set to resign tomorrow.
Will Cryer actually allow the no confidence motion to be tabled tomorrow? If not, the split might even be precipitated this week.